Worried she won’t like the gift (as usual)

[thankful person]

It is our 4th wedding anniversary coming up and I am preparing myself for my wife being very disappointed with her gift, which generally ruins the whole day and she tells me this pretty much every celebration day. She is always disappointed with most gifts especially ones from me. But on this occasion, I feel responsible, I bought her a framed linen postcard with a photo of us, because linen is a traditional four year gift. But you can’t see our faces clearly because it’s printed on linen. Whilst it’s effective from a distance, I realise now that I should have zoomed in on the example photos and I would have noticed you get a better effect with a close up photo than full length. So I blame myself. But I feel this is good practice for Christmas and the future, to not let her know that I had any concerns about the quality or aesthetics of the gift or whether she would like it. I do personally think it looks quite good, but if I ever say this about rejected gifts then I get accused of getting them for myself not for her. All I know is that once before I got a keyring made of our photo and she didn’t like it because “we look scary” I think our eyes looked black but in this one our whole faces are blurred. But anyway I’d appreciate any advice, how to respond assuming she won’t like this gift, or any future gifts…

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[NonnyMouse]

Too late now but I would avoid photos altogether. It’s too easy for pwBPD to read things into them, faces, posture, location,… And everything will be interpreted in the worst possible way. I wouldn’t try to use photos to trigger happy memories either. There will be something about the event that was negative and she’ll latch onto that.

I mean you might get lucky but the possible downside is not worth it.

[Chosen]

My advice re gifting for a pwBPD is: do not have any expectations of them liking it.  Don't treat it as a big occasion whenever you're giving them anything.  The reaction will most likely not be what you wanted.  Like, 99% of the time.  Either they would not like the gift, or they're show little to no emotion of you gifting them. 

But if you're prepared, then you would be able to let it go easier. 

Sorry for raining on your parade.  I like giving gifts and certainly like it when people love my gift.  But my pwBPDh is almost never like that.  So I had to learn how to response to his "coldness"/ negative reactions concerning gifts.  I give him something because I feel like giving it, and after I give it to him, it's my job done, whether he likes it or not.  It's a big sad that I rarely get the reward of seeing a happy recipient, but I can't really change how he responses.

[babyducks]

Have you ever wondered Broken Person if your wife just doesn't plan like photographs?

I notice you report a lot of conflict around photographs.    When you take pictures of the kids.  How your mother displays pictures.   It all seems to generate conflict.

Clearly photographs are important to you.   

I'm wondering if someone without a strongly defined sense of self would find photographs jarring.   If the image in the picture doesn't match your own self image how would that make you feel?

[thankful person]

Thanks nonny and chosen,
Honestly I’m just so relieved that this is a common experience here on the forum, before I always felt so totally alone in dreading celebrations, holidays and giving gifts. You feel like no one else in the world has to deal with such problems. Even though my ex also hated presents I got him, and this created much anxiety and sleepless nights for me. Apart from that he couldn’t be more different from my wife. LOL I guess the joke’s on me.
Ducks, my wife likes some photos, usually selfies, she is generally very unhappy with photos I take of her, usually saying I make her look fat. The photo on linen is one of our wedding photos. I know which ones she hates. Generally we do both have very happy memories of the day. Ironically, we were going to be married the year before, but had to postpone because I had cancer. I wasn’t surprised I got cancer. I was worrying about whether we could get through a whole day with other people, without having a massive row. Our relationship must have improved a bit that year. But despite the happy wedding memories, it wouldn’t surprise me if my wife one day tells me she hated the day because I ignored her all day (or something like that).
I do wonder about the photo thing though. My wife’s parents have no photos of anyone displayed. There are strangely no photos anywhere of my wife between the age of about 1 and 6 years old. She remembers her uncle started abusing her at age 6 and she seems to think there’s a connection.
You’ll all think I’m crazy, but I’m making a photo explosion box for her Christmas present. It has to be top secret, as in, she doesn’t even know I have a secret project because then she’d be even more disappointed when she gets it. But she’ll probably feel betrayed because I’ve been doing it behind her back. Anyway, I’m enjoying doing it. I know which pictures she likes as she’s used them as profile pictures etc. I’m not sure if she’ll like it. She may even destroy it. But at least I’m prepared for that.

[formflier]

I'm wondering if someone without a strongly defined sense of self would find photographs jarring.   If the image in the picture doesn't match your own self image how would that make you feel?

I think this is an idea to be further explored.

Switching gears.

If we flipped the question around and asked what kind of gifts she generally likes...what would the answer be?

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

She likes things I can’t afford! Expensive anything really. But what she would especially like would be a holiday. But she envisions a romantic tropical paradise and even if I could afford it, then the reality of having two small children would not match the fantasy in her mind. We haven’t been on holiday since having the kids (partly because of covid) and I know she wants to, but tbh I feel like saying, what’s the point because you always hate our holidays?

[Goosey]

Toward the end of my marriage to a bpd I was just buying new tires for her car every year. Like clockwork she would trade it in a few weeks later for a new car we couldn’t afford haha.
  Every real gift just got a cursory look.over and ended up buried in a closet. Can’t do right when always set up as being wrong.
   

[babyducks]

my wife likes some photos, usually selfies, she is generally very unhappy with photos I take of her, usually saying I make her look fat.

people with eating disorders often have body image issues.    sometimes people with BPD do too.    lots of people have body image issues.

 But despite the happy wedding memories, it wouldn’t surprise me if my wife one day tells me she hated the day because I ignored her all day (or something like that).

Memento's are emotionally laden.   for pwBPD who see the intense emotion of the moment as Totally Accurate and lasting forever, you might want to think about stirring the emotional pot.

My wife’s parents have no photos of anyone displayed. There are strangely no photos anywhere of my wife between the age of about 1 and 6 years old.

so, it's fair to say that photographs are triggering to her?    

I’m not sure if she’ll like it. She may even destroy it.

why give her something she may destroy?    I'm not following your thinking here.  

If we flipped the question around and asked what kind of gifts she generally likes...what would the answer be?

are you saying that rather than gifts of things, she likes gifts of experiences?   rather than a new winter sweater she would rather go to a concert?

[formflier]

are you saying that rather than gifts of things, she likes gifts of experiences?   rather than a new winter sweater she would rather go to a concert?

Yes...more on this.

Can you give us several examples of gifts/experiences..etc etc..that you wife appreciated?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

You’ll all think I’m crazy, but I’m making a photo explosion box for her Christmas present. It has to be top secret, as in, she doesn’t even know I have a secret project because then she’d be even more disappointed when she gets it.

It has to be top secret why?  Does your wife do well with surprises?  Does your wife do well with secrets?  You seem to understand she will feel betrayed but you are still going ahead and doing it anyway?   Even with the chance she will destroy it?

Does that sound like a good idea?
 
it sounds like when you asked her what she wanted for Christmas she said a trip to the tropics.   I would like that to and I don't celebrate Christmas.   What was the rest of the conversation like?  How did you respond to her?

I am curious.   What do you think would happen if you said 'wife I am making a photo box for myself or for us for Christmas.  Would you like to help me pick out pictures?' 

If she had input would that lessen the chance of her destroying anything?

[thankful person]

Amazing news here, not only did my wife say, “I love it!” when I gave her the gift… but our wedding anniversary went really well today. It’s strange because I did identify several incidents that could have severely “ruined the day” had I handled them badly… I feel like you’re all experts on here and I’m totally clueless. But yet I keep thinking, I must be doing something right… mostly me talking less still seems to be working…
I have had an interesting thought about the gift-giving dynamics between us. My ex-boyfriend was very quietly demanding about his presents. Like my wife, he wanted surprises but also had an extensive list and everything he wanted was on it. He was often disappointed by the gifts. By the time I left him I was suffering severe anxiety over any time I had to get him presents. So in the early days, I was always saying to my wife, “I’m so worried you’ll hate the presents, I’m such a rubbish person and I give rubbish presents, please don’t be angry etc” And for some reason, this caused her to hate all the presents. Because I practically told her to! I think because I’m now ok with the idea of her not liking the gifts, then hopefully she doesn’t feel she has to play that part anymore…
Now, when I say I think she will hate the photo box and may destroy it, what I mean is, I am prepared for the worst possible reaction. She can’t hurt me, no matter how she reacts. In response to why am I making it? I do hope she will love it. But I am also enjoying the process. I like crafts and it is something she doesn’t like me doing because she doesn’t seem to like me enjoying anything. Whilst it might annoy her to see me doing such a thing, hopefully she’ll be ok with it being already completed when she gets it. It has to be top secret because, much like with my ex, if she knew I was putting lots of time into something then her expectations would be huge so it would likely be even more of a disappointment.
If I suggest we do such things together, it just doesn’t happen and it drives me mad. For example I bought some nice photo albums a couple of years ago and she printed off a load of pictures. And they are still not in the albums! She would be mad if I did it on my own as she claims to want to do it together. But every time I suggest it, the answer is no and, “would you stop pestering me about this? If you keep going on about it then we won’t ever do it”. This kind of thing is a common theme and a way she has control. So I just have to let such things go. But yes, one concern is that she will say she would have liked us to do it together. But I honestly think that if I had done that instead then it would never get done.
FF, I would love to get my wife a trip or experience but it’s so much harder than objects because of the pressure to get to a place on time etc. It’s also hard to do most things with two small children. She’s also so easily disappointed. Last year, we both planned a surprise trip (we knew we were both planning a surprise trip - her idea -  but not the details). Her trip was to Paris and mine to a local island holiday park. Her plans were very extravagant. I was thinking of the practicalities of her breast feeding our then five month old, when breast feeding has been a massive challenge. So the trip was short. Both trips were cancelled due to covid. But she still berated me for what a rubbish idea I had had.

[Acronym]

Amazing news here, not only did my wife say, “I love it!” when I gave her the gift… but our wedding anniversary went really well today. It’s strange because I did identify several incidents that could have severely “ruined the day” had I handled them badly… I feel like you’re all experts on here and I’m totally clueless. But yet I keep thinking, I must be doing something right… mostly me talking less still seems to be working…
I have had an interesting thought about the gift-giving dynamics between us. My ex-boyfriend was very quietly demanding about his presents. Like my wife, he wanted surprises but also had an extensive list and everything he wanted was on it. He was often disappointed by the gifts. By the time I left him I was suffering severe anxiety over any time I had to get him presents. So in the early days, I was always saying to my wife, “I’m so worried you’ll hate the presents, I’m such a rubbish person and I give rubbish presents, please don’t be angry etc” And for some reason, this caused her to hate all the presents. Because I practically told her to! I think because I’m now ok with the idea of her not liking the gifts, then hopefully she doesn’t feel she has to play that part anymore…
Now, when I say I think she will hate the photo box and may destroy it, what I mean is, I am prepared for the worst possible reaction. She can’t hurt me, no matter how she reacts. In response to why am I making it? I do hope she will love it. But I am also enjoying the process. I like crafts and it is something she doesn’t like me doing because she doesn’t seem to like me enjoying anything. Whilst it might annoy her to see me doing such a thing, hopefully she’ll be ok with it being already completed when she gets it. It has to be top secret because, much like with my ex, if she knew I was putting lots of time into something then her expectations would be huge so it would likely be even more of a disappointment.
If I suggest we do such things together, it just doesn’t happen and it drives me mad. For example I bought some nice photo albums a couple of years ago and she printed off a load of pictures. And they are still not in the albums! She would be mad if I did it on my own as she claims to want to do it together. But every time I suggest it, the answer is no and, “would you stop pestering me about this? If you keep going on about it then we won’t ever do it”. This kind of thing is a common theme and a way she has control. So I just have to let such things go. But yes, one concern is that she will say she would have liked us to do it together. But I honestly think that if I had done that instead then it would never get done.
FF, I would love to get my wife a trip or experience but it’s so much harder than objects because of the pressure to get to a place on time etc. It’s also hard to do most things with two small children. She’s also so easily disappointed. Last year, we both planned a surprise trip (we knew we were both planning a surprise trip - her idea -  but not the details). Her trip was to Paris and mine to a local island holiday park. Her plans were very extravagant. I was thinking of the practicalities of her breast feeding our then five month old, when breast feeding has been a massive challenge. So the trip was short. Both trips were cancelled due to covid. But she still berated me for what a rubbish idea I had had.

I hope that things between the two of you will be better in the future. I really like the fact that you started to cure yourself of negative thoughts, which you then projected on your wife.

I really hope there will be more changes.

[thankful person]

Thanks Acronym, I realised many years ago in my previous relationship that my boyfriend was far more likely to complain about his dinner if I presented it to him with, “here’s your dinner, hope it’s ok..” One ultimate goal is to present someone with some food with a confident, “Here’s your dinner! Enjoy!” Hopefully I can keep on learning, the forum here is certainly helping!

[babyducks]

For example I bought some nice photo albums a couple of years ago and she printed off a load of pictures. And they are still not in the albums! She would be mad if I did it on my own as she claims to want to do it together. But every time I suggest it, the answer is no and, “would you stop pestering me about this? If you keep going on about it then we won’t ever do it”.

Respectfully Broken Person,  I can't help but notice that the example you give us is again about photographs.

Nothing you have ever said makes me think your wife likes pictures.   or what I would call arts and crafts type activities.

you seem to really enjoy them.   

why not put the pictures away in the albums and let her be mad about it?

[formflier]

why not put the pictures away in the albums and let her be mad about it?

And also..maybe combine this with something you know she will like...it may help move through the "photograph issue" much more quickly.

Hey Broken Person you are doing really good things and being deliberate about making changes that have resulted in improvements!   

Keep that up.

One area to "keep that up" is to examine and reflect on the "photograph thing" and/or "arts and crafts thing".  I'm certainly curious to hear your thoughts on what that is all about...for both of you.

Best,

FF

[AlwaysMean]

Thanks, for sharing your experience. I have been dealing with the same anxieties as you since Thanksgiving. I can match everything you have talked about. My partner and I are into the same things so its a little easier but not really because  he likes  the expensive version of what I can afford. He will nitpick the details in whatever it is that I get for him and give me attitude for being so secretive. In the end, I just have to remind myself those are his feelings and I am there are not  mine to take on. Know your heart comes from a good place with good intentions. There will always be a problem a gift given to the pwBPD. Just my experiences. I can feel and relate with you.

[thankful person]

Respectfully Broken Person,  I can't help but notice that the example you give us is again about photographs.

Nothing you have ever said makes me think your wife likes pictures.   or what I would call arts and crafts type activities.

you seem to really enjoy them.   

why not put the pictures away in the albums and let her be mad about it?

Ducks you know I’m always up for these challenges! Arggggh they are packed in a box somewhere now! We have a room full of packed boxes from when we thought we were moving. The house is on the market again. So it’ll have to wait for now but it will be my intention to just go ahead once I find them. One slight hitch is that she chose and printed the photos so will claim “ownership”. I imagine her response will be, “those are my photos and you don’t have the right to touch them. And we were supposed to be making the photo albums together!”

[thankful person]

And also..maybe combine this with something you know she will like...it may help move through the "photograph issue" much more quickly.

Hey Broken Person you are doing really good things and being deliberate about making changes that have resulted in improvements!   

Keep that up.

One area to "keep that up" is to examine and reflect on the "photograph thing" and/or "arts and crafts thing".  I'm certainly curious to hear your thoughts on what that is all about...for both of you.

Best,

FF

Thanks FF for your encouragement. And btw I won’t be accepting any dumb amount of money for our house no matter what her reasons are. So as for photos, she had issues sounding self image and weight (previous eating disorder also self harm scars) but she does like some photos of herself but tends to say I don’t take good pictures of her. Or if she has the baby then I miss her laughing or whatever. I think she’s jealous because my mum has lots of photos of family round the house and her mum doesn’t. And the strange fact that there aren’t any pictures of her at all between around 1-6 years old. As for crafts, it’s something I’ve always enjoyed along with my piano playing. And my wife doesn’t much like me enjoying myself. So she has said she doesn’t want me doing such things because she doesn’t have equivalent pastimes. All she does is social media and watching tv. But that’s her choice. I have started to play the piano a bit more and expressed my wish to study further in music and music theory. But she’s only supportive in saying, “yes I’ll study piano and music theory too”. Then if it turns out she doesn’t then I’m forbidden because “it’s not fair”. This is certainly another thing I want to change.

[thankful person]

Know your heart comes from a good place with good intentions. There will always be a problem a gift given to the pwBPD. Just my experiences. I can feel and relate with you.

Thanks always mean, yes I am determined that this Christmas will be different, that she can have a tantrum about the gifts if she wants but I’m more prepared so hopefully will handle it better. I am so relieved that others have this same experience. I really felt so alone before, like I was the only person in the world to be putting up with such behaviour.

[babyducks]

I imagine her response will be, “those are my photos and you don’t have the right to touch them. And we were supposed to be making the photo albums together!”

when you imagine her response,   how do you imagine your response?    

One area to "keep that up" is to examine and reflect on the "photograph thing" and/or "arts and crafts thing".  I'm certainly curious to hear your thoughts on what that is all about...for both of you.

Good points by FF.    I would say that part of the recovery from, or improvement in dysfunctional relationship dynamics is to really dig deep, deep, deep, deep, into why that happened/happens and what it means for both parties.

we get hooked into these arguments.  or we get hooked into imagining these arguments.   we tend to do it for a reason.   we tend to ascribe reasons and messages behind behavior which may or may not be accurate.

'ducks

[thankful person]

when you imagine her response,   how do you imagine your response?   

Good points by FF.    I would say that part of the recovery from, or improvement in dysfunctional relationship dynamics is to really dig deep, deep, deep, deep, into why that happened/happens and what it means for both parties.

we get hooked into these arguments.  or we get hooked into imagining these arguments.   we tend to do it for a reason.   we tend to ascribe reasons and messages behind behavior which may or may not be accurate.

'ducks

Well I imagine once she points out that she printed the photos so they’re technically hers, and we were supposed to do it together, I’d be like, “yeah I know, I just thought it’d be nice to have the photos in the albums..” and she’ll say, “yes we’ll do it when I’m ready. The more you go on about it the less likely I’ll want to do it”. This is a common theme where she can exert her control. She doesn’t give reasons for why she’s “not ready”. But I understand that she will make decisions when I’m not pressuring her (sometimes months or years later).
I think usually it’s not so much that she has issues over something (like photos), but more that she doesn’t want me to be happy doing something I enjoy because then she’s jealous of my happiness. If you’re asking… about me… When I was with my ex for 14 years… there are hardly any photos left of that time, only a couple of family ones here and there. I have a confession to make which is that I actually still have hundreds of photos of my time with my ex. Shut up in a box at mum and dad’s. I couldn’t bring myself to throw away years and years of memories. I felt that someone in the future needs to find that box and know how much I loved him. I don’t want my wife to be that person. I have imagined asking my brother to take care of it when my parents pass on. Is this crazy? It’s history. From a time when we did have digital photos for some of it… but I have no idea what he did with those files. But I want my truth to be known.. and that’s why I like photos. (I’m sorry I still love them both).

[Notwendy]

I have many memories of gifts gone bad with my BPD mother.

I send her flowers now for birthdays and holidays. She does say they are lovely but I also have no expectations for this.

She sends gifts to the grandkids but nothing to me and I prefer that. I few times she has sent me impersonal trinkets. It's not the cost that upsets me, I'd rather have a nice card from her or even nothing- than these because she'll give something nicer to a stranger. She doesn't somehow connect the value of the gift to the relationship- gifting nicer things to people she's less connected to. This follows BPD dynamics- where it seems she is nicer to acquaintances than her close family so I should not be surprised. Once I was upset that she didn't acknowledge my college graduation and she snarled at me "don't ever expect a gift" and so I don't.

My husband has noticed I don't get excited about a gift from him. I think I probably have some emotional disconnect from gifts from my own childhood because of the BPD dynamics around them. Yes, of course, I appreciate them, and like them but I have mixed feelings about gifts. If my mother gave me anything nice, it was with an expectation-strings attached. She gives nice things to people as a means of securing their loyalty to her.

When I do give gifts I try to think of what the person would like but I also tend to be practical with them and choose useful things. If I know someone likes to cook, I will choose a special item for that, or clothing if I know what they wear.

I wonder what kind of issues around gifts my mother might have experienced- and what kinds of issues you and your wife were raised with? Seems your ex BF had some issues with them too. It might be that your wife prefers experience types of gifts- a nice dinner out or a movie date? Maybe pictures are not a gift she prefers.

[formflier]

I think usually it’s not so much that she has issues over something (like photos), but more that she doesn’t want me to be happy doing something I enjoy because then she’s jealous of my happiness. 

I'm doubtful this type of thinking is helpful.

1.  How would you ever know if it is accurate or not.

2.  A pwBPDs issues are rarely with the "non"...so it's unlikely she is jealous of your emotions.   It is much much more likely that she has trouble regulating her own emotions.

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

Thanks not Wendy, it is my intention to do no more photo gifts until after next Christmas! We’ll see whether I can cope with that there are many nice photo things to buy these days but maybe I’ll just do one for a non-event saying it’s for the whole family.. Events are tricky with the kids but I’ll bear that in mind too.

I'm doubtful this type of thinking is helpful.

1.  How would you ever know if it is accurate or not.

2.  A pwBPDs issues are rarely with the "non"...so it's unlikely she is jealous of your emotions.   It is much much more likely that she has trouble regulating her own emotions.

Best,

FF

FF, that’s interesting. She does often tell me, “it’s not all about you!” However she has also said she doesn’t like me playing piano or making crafts because she can’t/doesn’t do it and “it’s not fair”. Also because she wants to spend time with me but not with me doing such things as she wouldn’t have my full attention (she rarely has my full attention it’s true because life is very busy with two little ones). I shall certainly reflect on your thoughts next time I feel that way, because I have spent seven years in this relationship believing that she hates me being happy! Maybe time to change that belief?

[formflier]

Hey...something I'm curious about.

Why be in a relationship with someone you believe doesn't want you to be happy?  So..like the purpose of the relationship is to make you less happy?

Again..for clarity, I don't believe for a second that your wife doesn't want you to be happy...my question is more for you to reflect on and then make a deliberate choice.

Le'ts generalize a bit.

1.  If I believe someone wishes me ill/bad stuff...etc etc be very clear about why you believe this..is there consistent objective evidence generated to support this belief...over time.

If there is evidence, then it would seem you have things to do to protect yourself. 

If there is no evidence, then it would seem you have some internal work to do on why you believe others wish you ill, without evidence.

One of the things my psychologist used to remind me all the time..."What is the most parsimonious explanation for why FFw did (fill in the blank)."

Figure that out, then used that as the explanation unless evidence to the contrary presents itself.


Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't think it's about not wanting to see you happy. I think it's about attention. Have you noticed your toddler interrupts you when you are talking to your wife, or someone else on the phone. Mommy stop talking! Why? Because if you are doing that, you are not paying attention to them! The toddler wants your attention. Sometimes if you are busy and distracted, the toddler might do something like make a mess, or annoy a sibling? Why? It takes the attention back to them.

With emotional immaturity, I think it's similar dynamics. You know what to do with the toddler- set boundaries. Same with your wife. Say "I will be playing piano for 1 hour and after that we will have lunch together" so she knows the time frame and that you plan to spend time with her.

[formflier]

Hey Broken Person..just stopping by to send you some support.

Also wanted to expand on the parsimonious thing.

So...let's say FFw comes home and gives me both barrels says she hates my (pick person)...and then goes on a bpdish rant.

Old FF would have thought

"Oh my she is bad with relationships..has no sense of self..has been ruminating about this all day..always does this..never has anything nice to say...won't go to counseling (and it can go on and on..an may actually be accurate..maybe)

"parsimonious FF" would think

"Oh babe..tough day? (as I hand over a glass of cool water)"

The "simplest" explanation will suffice for this instance and if it is something more complicated...it will clarify itself..over time.  No need to go rooting around to figure it out.

Said another way...I didn't do myself or my relationships many favors by speculating about why people did (insert thing).

Best,

FF