Separation Advice

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I have been married 19 years to an undiagnosed BPD (according to our counselors) and dearly love my wife.
I've been through Hell for 19 years, but also had some great moments.
I've begged for counseling, and when we did go she quit.
Recently, I found myself in depression (and I am an upbeat guy) and losing myself and who I am in the marriage- often catering to all her demands and stepping over eggshells. Not only me, also the kids. 
I didn't know what I was dealing with, and recently informed my wife that I was leaving the house and separating for a time and made some stipulations for me to come back into the house. I never mentioned divorce and don't believe in divorce.  Honestly, I wanted time to think and to heal, as well as to have a peaceful household.

It was then that my marriage counselors told me more than likely she has BPD (one of them who knows her and counseled her as well) and gave me book reccomendations to read. I wish I wouldve known this and had these tools sooner and most of it describes our relationship.

I am working on myself to get free of codependency and set proper boundaries.

Unfortunately, my wife says she more than likely doesn't want the relationship anymore.
She talks like a broken record , "You left me!" as her major complaint (speaking of my decision to separate for a period) as if I did the worst thing in the world and shattered our marriage because of this. I made it clear I didn't want a divorce and even wrote her love letters to make it clear I still love her (she asked me to stop) starting the day after the separation. I wrote her a letter expressing my desire for her and only her, but with a better relationship through our family counselor a couple weeks after. She asked the family counselor not to read it to her. Its been four months now. We are starting marriage counseling next month, I hope it works, but she doesn't have much hope and seems to be doing this only as to mark off a list to check. I told her I still want our marriage, just not like it was - to which she responds, "Oh I have demands of you too!" (Our marriage has been filled with constant demands of hers, and me making very few requests - and me working very hard to fill those demands which seem like a bottomless pit and after 19 years only recently started to complain or express it's too hard for me to fulfill them all).

I am not perfect and have my share of things to work on (and have been working on for years, mostly ADHD and codependency). I also found myself disengaging from her from depression mostly stemmed from the marriage and the constant walking on eggshells. I am actually a person who loves conversation, communication, and intimacy. She feels like I don't communicate with her, and she is right... but those around me feel like I am not the way with others. Its something I feel happens mostly with her, because communicating with her is like walking on minefields all the time. She knows this too and says I give more to others in communication and friendship than to her, and I don't want that. I just didn't know how to communicate with someone so emotionally volatile all the time that is prone to lash out from the smallest thing and is often paranoid. Honestly, I feel she shuts down communication more than I do which is why I am so depressed. I want to communicate. She feels me distancing and I'm often confused by the bizarre behaviors.

I am working on my core though to know what boundaries to set and where to be more flexible. I've been way too flexible and lost myself.

I am not sad I separated though. I actually have time to think, rather than to worry when I am going to set her off next by the smallest thing. I do feel alot of pain from 19 years of emotional and verbal abuse and sleepless nights dealing with paranoid issues. I am healing though and am finding myself again.

Many people feel like I should've learned to do this within the marriage and not separate. I don't know if I could've grown as fast, learned as much, healed quicker, and thought as clearly as I do now while separated. I feel like many people want me to confess separation was the wrong tool, but yet I feel like I have more clarity in my life now than I do ever. I could actually go back into the marriage with the right tools! I don't know if I could've done that as fast while being in the crazy-making daily drama.

I do want my marriage though, but it seems like she doesn't and wants me to confess I made a huge mistake by separating before she would consider it. I'm willing to say I made mistakes about how I separated and that it wasn't mutual. I was losing myself in depression and hopelessness, and now I am not, so I am not willing to say separation wasn't a good thing. I want to bring my healing and new tools back into the marriage. I honestly do not think I could've done it within the craziness of the marriage. I needed a break to get to where I am at now. I would've drowned. She doesn't see how much the verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse and control/manipulation took its toll on me and why I needed a break to be stronger for us. I also realize mistakes I made (but also have compassion for myself knowing that its not a basic life skill to know the skills to be married to someone with BPD). I didn't do everything right, but it's also tools you need that basic normative marriages don't need.

I hope my wife can get over "You left me!"... but even then I don't want to go back to how everything was. I know it won't be perfect and I have to come to acceptance it won't be normative. But I can request for it not to be abusive...

[JewishHeart]

I have been married 19 years to an undiagnosed BPD (according to our counselors) and dearly love my wife.
I've been through Hell for 19 years, but also had some great moments.
I've begged for counseling, and when we did go she quit.
Recently, I found myself in depression (and I am an upbeat guy) and losing myself and who I am in the marriage- often catering to all her demands and stepping over eggshells. Not only me, also the kids. 
I didn't know what I was dealing with, and recently informed my wife that I was leaving the house and separating for a time and made some stipulations for me to come back into the house. I never mentioned divorce and don't believe in divorce.  Honestly, I wanted time to think and to heal, as well as to have a peaceful household.

It was then that my marriage counselors told me more than likely she has BPD (one of them who knows her and counseled her as well) and gave me book reccomendations to read. I wish I wouldve known this and had these tools sooner and most of it describes our relationship.

I am working on myself to get free of codependency and set proper boundaries.

Unfortunately, my wife says she more than likely doesn't want the relationship anymore.
She talks like a broken record , "You left me!" as her major complaint (speaking of my decision to separate for a period) as if I did the worst thing in the world and shattered our marriage because of this. I made it clear I didn't want a divorce and even wrote her love letters to make it clear I still love her (she asked me to stop) starting the day after the separation. I wrote her a letter expressing my desire for her and only her, but with a better relationship through our family counselor a couple weeks after. She asked the family counselor not to read it to her. Its been four months now. We are starting marriage counseling next month, I hope it works, but she doesn't have much hope and seems to be doing this only as to mark off a list to check. I told her I still want our marriage, just not like it was - to which she responds, "Oh I have demands of you too!" (Our marriage has been filled with constant demands of hers, and me making very few requests - and me working very hard to fill those demands which seem like a bottomless pit and after 19 years only recently started to complain or express it's too hard for me to fulfill them all).

I am not perfect and have my share of things to work on (and have been working on for years, mostly ADHD and codependency). I also found myself disengaging from her from depression mostly stemmed from the marriage and the constant walking on eggshells. I am actually a person who loves conversation, communication, and intimacy. She feels like I don't communicate with her, and she is right... but those around me feel like I am not the way with others. Its something I feel happens mostly with her, because communicating with her is like walking on minefields all the time. She knows this too and says I give more to others in communication and friendship than to her, and I don't want that. I just didn't know how to communicate with someone so emotionally volatile all the time that is prone to lash out from the smallest thing and is often paranoid. Honestly, I feel she shuts down communication more than I do which is why I am so depressed. I want to communicate. She feels me distancing and I'm often confused by the bizarre behaviors.

I am working on my core though to know what boundaries to set and where to be more flexible. I've been way too flexible and lost myself.

I am not sad I separated though. I actually have time to think, rather than to worry when I am going to set her off next by the smallest thing. I do feel alot of pain from 19 years of emotional and verbal abuse and sleepless nights dealing with paranoid issues. I am healing though and am finding myself again.

Many people feel like I should've learned to do this within the marriage and not separate. I don't know if I could've grown as fast, learned as much, healed quicker, and thought as clearly as I do now while separated. I feel like many people want me to confess separation was the wrong tool, but yet I feel like I have more clarity in my life now than I do ever. I could actually go back into the marriage with the right tools! I don't know if I could've done that as fast while being in the crazy-making daily drama.

I do want my marriage though, but it seems like she doesn't and wants me to confess I made a huge mistake by separating before she would consider it. I'm willing to say I made mistakes about how I separated and that it wasn't mutual. I was losing myself in depression and hopelessness, and now I am not, so I am not willing to say separation wasn't a good thing. I want to bring my healing and new tools back into the marriage. I honestly do not think I could've done it within the craziness of the marriage. I needed a break to get to where I am at now. I would've drowned. She doesn't see how much the verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse and control/manipulation took its toll on me and why I needed a break to be stronger for us. I also realize mistakes I made (but also have compassion for myself knowing that its not a basic life skill to know the skills to be married to someone with BPD). I didn't do everything right, but it's also tools you need that basic normative marriages don't need.

I hope my wife can get over "You left me!"... but even then I don't want to go back to how everything was. I know it won't be perfect and I have to come to acceptance it won't be normative. But I can request for it not to be abusive...

[NotAHero]

Abandonment real or perceived triggers a  strong long term response for BPDs.  Make sure to uphold your new boundaries the rest will be up to her.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello, and welcome.

Sounds like you're making great progress once you were out of the pressure cooker.  As mentioned above, work hard on maintaining your new boundaries as they will certainly be tested.  Blame shifting is part and parcel of what you are dealing with.  Beware of attempts to guilt you into something that is not on your path towards improving yourself and the relationship.

Let us know how you are doing when you have some spare time.  Be well.  CoMo

[JewishHeart]

Thank both of you for your reply.

We had a Christmas Eve meal, and the next day watched a movie together today for Christmas.

The meal was good. I have a son with Aspergers who was kind of triggered by our time together sad that our family isn’t together like this and is taking the separation hard. I took a walk with him in the restaurant parking lot and let him let off steam. My wife was the amazing beautiful person I fell in love with and we laughed together.

However, the next day (today) I went over to the house for Christmas and a movie. I bought her a gift. She says she isn’t married to me anymore and doesn’t wear her wedding ring and says she is married to Jesus since I left/separated from her. I showed some affection and gave her a hug showing I care. She rejected it and reminded me I left her and put a boundary around showing her any type of affection. This was confusing especially since the dinner the night before we laughted and had a good time together. It honestly feels like a roller coaster. I felt like yesterday she opened up to me and today she put a strong boundary and was closed again.  She constantly reminds me that although she admits she has anger issues and other behaviors she needs to work on, we could’ve done this without me separating.

She asked me to leave the house early with my son because of her noise sensitivity. She has these weird noise sensitivity where noise causes her to blow up.  She places boundaries on the entire family to “respect her” noise sensitivity such as not watching TV when she is at home, no listening to music, no talking on the phone, etc. Once she blew up at me because I answered the phone to finish life insurance paperwork out in the backyard and she claimed she could hear me in the backyard and the life insurance agent could hear her coming out in the yard to blow up at me saying I don’t care about her because I answered the phone at home (even out in the yard!) So the entire family is always on edge any time any type of noise is made, which is an impossible way to live. If we watch the abs she comes home from shopping, the first thing she does when she walks in the house and hears the TV is to turn off the TV and she is erratic until it gets turned off almost like a crazy person. We all scramble to get the remote in a frantic mess. She often feels we don’t care about her or any type of noise is in the house. Does anybody know about this issue with noise being a trigger that sends somebody in a frantic episode? Smells and even aesthetics also trigger her. Many times when we go to a restaurant I already know the routine- we will switch tables 3-4 times if other tables are available until it is aesthetically pleasing to her (otherwise she will be bothered by the view the entire meal). She will then ask the waiter to turn the music down or off. If there are no other tables available, she will be frustrated the entire meal. She will often blame
Me for a bad restaurant experience it I chose the restaurant and it doesn’t have all the aesthetics she desires. Again saying since I know she is like that I should’ve considered all
These things when choosing a restaurant and since it didn’t fit her requirement (noise, food, aesthetics, etc) it shows I don’t care about her issues abs protecting her from getting angry.

She expects me to actually understand all her triggers saying they happened because of her past. She places the responsibility for understanding all the triggers on me and if I miss one or forget about one , I don’t care about her. Once she asked me about the Supreme Court Kavenaugh hearing. She asked me “what was he accused of?” I answered her “gang rape”. She then went on a tirade that saying that phrase triggered her and it was insensitive of me to say it. She didn’t talk to me for three days punishing me for answering her question! Saying I don’t care because I kmow
She was sexually abused and “chose”
To use those words and trigger her. Therefore I don’t care.

My 17 year old daughter also left the house and didnt talk with her mother for three months, and has since scheduled a visitation with her mother once a week. She left the day before I separated, so it was a double whammy for my wife. She also couldn’t stand the BPD abuse. However, she is under my care now and living part time with me and with another family friend helping her finish her homeschooling. I think she is also struggling with some  BPD symptoms as well. My Asperger son also came to live with me since a month ago. He is 15 yo. H

[BigOof]

I showed some affection and gave her a hug showing I care.

Don't do this.

[ForeverDad]

I agree with BigOof.  I have been divorced since 2008.  Our son recently aged out of the court order system.  He lives with me but she comes to visit him here.  She does NOT want me to be friendly or affectionate with her.  And I do not want to trigger her.

I'm not saying all of us deal with such an aftermath.  But for most of us, our futures after life with a disordered acting out spouse are that we begin mostly separate lives, except parenting the children.  That's just the reality.

[JewishHeart]

Ok, can you help me understand why? We are still married and I want our marriage and only saw this separation as a healing separation. We enjoyed each other’s company and laughed together and the day before she did give me a side hug and I saw the person I fell in love with. I’m frustrated because I really needed time off for me and to place some boundaries and ask her to get help. I didn’t know it would nearly end our marriage.

[BigOof]

She could use it to have you criminally charged. Once she splits you into all-bad, you're all bad and belong in jail.

[ForeverDad]

Sorry if we misunderstood the purpose of your separation.

An important question... Does she view the separation as you do, as a healing separation?

I get the impression she has some issues with you, if not also the marriage?

One of the perspectives we have is that the level of conflict can vary, from relatively mild that we can manage to outright heightened conflict.  She seems in between mild and violent.

Another thought... you daughter may not necessarily have BPD.  Due to her being raised in contact with her mother she may have what we refer to as "BPD fleas" and with distance away from her mother, counseling and your support she may make strides toward recovery.  If so, then you could view your daughter's issues as having situational sources, not she herself.

[JewishHeart]

ForeverDad,

She does not carry the same idea as I do, but this is partly my fault. I announced to her I want a separation in the middle of an argument about our kids, although it’s been something I’ve been planning with my counselor for a while now and didn’t have the guts to do it. It took her by surprise. I made a mistake, but honestl, I didn’t know she had BPD until after the separation and neither did I have the tools to deal with it. Although all our counselors have suspected this as she has walked out in the middle of every marriage counseling we have ever had in fits of rage and accusations the counselors are unprofessional. Once throwing around chairs. This is why I separated unilaterally with the idea also that it would force her to stay in counseling. The crazy part is she needs to feel things are her idea, so she has also chosen every counselor we have ever had. I’ve cooperated with every counselor, but she reacts when they have called her into accountability or given her homework. We have also always gone to Christian counselors who believe in the husband as the head of the home, and she is a strong Christian, but with a strong personality and self proclaimed feminist. I’m a pretty easy going person and have never demanded leadership, as any mention that I should lead the house she has reacted quite strongly against it. I have ADHD and still remain quite responsible (bills are paid, credit is good, job security consistent, etc). She is also very jealous of my success and job security and am quite celebrated at my job and successful. She asks me often to quit my job so she can pursue her career while I take care of kids. I’ve done this twice in our marriage thinking it would make her happy. She constantly tries to redefine herself and moves from career idea to career idea.  She still hasn’t found herself abs she is 47 years old- she kind of blames me and has expressed resentment that she isn’t the one working and I am not the one taking care of the kids. For financial reasons, I usually give her about a year to build her career before I go back into mine, she wishes I would’ve given her longer. Our kids are homeschooled (her choice)… I’ve suggested the kids go to public school so we could both embrace our jobs,. Now during the separation, she is actually getting what she always wanted. The two kids who are homeschooled are with me and I’m juggling my career with homeschooling the two kids  and she is embracing her career full time…. I still am the main financial source for our family, she only makes around 1000$ a month (nearly what she always makes when embracing her career which usually involves either crafts, clowning, face painting, or puppets. She loves what she does though, but it doesn’t bring home the bread. She thinks if she had years to concentrate on it while I took care of the kids more, she could build her craft snd surpass my salary. Again, I wish she would allow our kids just to go to public school, her idea being our kids are homeschooling and I am the one to give up my career to do it. She actually did homeschool them in last year and hated doing it. However she is convinced it’s the best for our kids and wishes I would see that and be the one to do it.  My kids actually wanted public school and were miserable homeschooling with her as well because of her BPD symptoms while she was doing it.

She would often ground the kids for her own insecurities. Our fight when I separated was because she grounded my 17 year old daughter for not respecting a rule she had. Basically, because my wife’s older brother was killed and he never got to say goodbye when she was a kid, she requests we always say goodbye when we leave the house, even just to go ten minutes down the street to grab milk.  If we leave, even just for 10 minutes, without saying goodbye, she goes into a fit. My daughter told her mother she was going with her friend to the store at noon and my wife said ok. When her friend got there, my wife was asleep. My daughter didn’t want to wake her when she went into the room and so she went with her friend to the store because she already got permission. My wife woke and my daughter wasn’t there so she grounded my daughter when she got home reminded her of the rule she has that nobody is allowed to leave the house without saying goodbye, even if she is asleep.  She called me and told me she grounded our daughter and why. I asked my wife very gently and calmly , “ do you think this is the smartest move to ground her for something she already got permission to do? Maybe it just deserves a talk with her to remind her of your past and your request and not necessarily grounding?” My wife hung up the phone on me, and wrote me a text cancelling our date night and also telling me to pick up my car at the garage by myself because I questioned her decision.  This was the day My daughter left the home being tired of being grounded all the time as a 17 year old for my wife’s own insecurities (sometimes my wife also grounded her when she hung out and enjoyed rhe company of her friends mother’s saying she is not allowed to enjoy other mothers more then her own mother). I separated unilaterally the next day with her punishing me being the last straw (it was something I was contemplating for six months already with a counselor anyways. I told her.I don’t want a divorce, but I want her to get help for control, manipulation, anger outbursts, and to stay in counseling. She was devastated honestly, but I did reassure her that I love her and don’t want a divorce- I just wanted out of this constant pressure cooker constantly stepping over her eggshells and her thinking she deserves to punish me and the kids if we don’t honor her triggers and respect the hurt she has from her past.  It led to us being slaves of her past in the name of caring about her. She admitted she has requests of us because Of triggers of her past, but feels like care ina. Family is to know all those triggers and to accommodate to all of them and she deserves to blow up if we miss one by accident.

[BigOof]

There's a book on your very situation: "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life"

[alleyesonme]

Don't do this.

Regarding him showing physical affection for her, I don't think this is a bad idea in his particular situation since he still wants the marriage to last. Still not a bad idea, though, to figure out a way to take video or audio footage of all of your in-person interactions with her from now on at least for the time being.

I personally identified with many of the examples you gave of her behaviors and beliefs.
 My initial impression is that you saw her at her best on Christmas Eve, but then she had 24 hours to think it over, and was likely feeling massive amounts of paranoia, shame, rejection and fear of abandonment when you saw her the following day, which is why she was completely different. I fully understand how emotionally exhausting and impossible it is to live in that pressure cooker, and I think you made a great move by separating so you can make a more objective decision when your mind and emotions aren't so clouded by her behaviors, particularly since it doesn't sound like you had to sacrifice much time with your kids as a result.

Has she ever seemed to be open to getting individual counseling, such as DBT?

[alleyesonme]

FWIW, one piece of advice I'd pass along - if you really want this marriage to last - is to make it your goal to become a professional validator as soon as possible. People with BPD weren't validated at all as children, and that's often one major reason they develop this disorder. No matter how insulting or outlandish her comments or behaviors are, try your best to keep your cool and validate, validate, validate. That's much easier said than done, and I wasn't able to do it myself. This trial separation may actually be the perfect format for you to gain some practice, as you can validate via text or email rather than being in the proverbial "warzone" at home. If you're able to do accomplish this, it's possible that you'll see some incremental changes in her behavior, which could give the two of you the necessary momentum to improve your marriage.

[JewishHeart]

Alleyensome,

I agree with you. Recently someone gave me the book, “Loving someone with Borderline Personalty Disorder” and it has a whole chapter on how to validate. I’ve actually been practicing the skills with my daughter and others in life. I admit I made lors of mistakes in that area looking back. I don’t yell and am pretty easy going, but when frustration would arise about my wife’s actions and behaviours I often questioned the validity of her emotions. For instance, when she would ground my daughter because of being jealous of her hanging out with her friends mother’s and receiving nurture from them. I would get frustrated bedside that is a wrong reason to discipline my daughter and saw it really hurt her. So i would confront my wife and say, “You are her mother and that will never change, you shouldn’t feel jealous and you need to fight that.” I was frustrated with her irate behavior that hurt my daughter and bad discipline practices based off her insecurities, and thought I was “getting to the root” of the problem rather than surface by questioning her feeling or jealousy. I now realize that was wrong of me, her feelings, whether real or perceived, belong to her abs are her reality. I should’ve validated them. I didn’t have the understanding or tools to know how to deal with her daily acting out on emotional roller coaster. I saw her feelings as causing the problems, especially when they weren’t grounded in reality.. I was wrong, but am also compassionate on myself because I grew up in a family that was pretty peaceful and fighting happened behind the scenes and everyone was pretty emotionally regulated, so was never taught how to deal with an emotionally dysregulared person and found myself completely lost with skills.  We were also taught to look for misunderstandings and that the root
Of most conflicts is many times in misunderstanding each other, so talking with someone logically and openly about a misunderstanding was the way to resolve it.  This was the skill I brought into the marriage, but it didn’t work with her like it did for us in our family growing up. I felt constantly frustrated that we couldn’t sit down and have an adult conversation free of heightened emotions, so I kind of blamed her emotions I’m willing to admit I’m wrong, but found myself doing that way too much as a substitute for validation as it seemed to work at least temporarily to bringing her peace admitting I was wrong even when I was not.

Anyways, that’s to say, I definitely admit although I am kind and a natural encourager, I never learned the tool of validation, especially of ones emotions when they don’t make sense , and made a million mistakes there. Wish I would’ve known earlie!

[JewishHeart]

As far DBT goes, my wife isn’t diagnosed. Her official diagnosis as of now is depression and fibromyalgia. She takes depression meds which has actually helped because the first ten years of our marriage she was constantly expressing the desire to commit suicide or having suicidal thoughts. She would ask me to take off work often to “hold her” when she was suicidal (which was all the time). When I told her I couldn’t there was Hell to pay and accusations of not caring. Since I am self employed she felt like it was my choice when to work and not to work and her emotional emergencies should take priority over my choice or when to work or not. She constantly reminded me since I am self employed, not taking off work last minute when she had emotional episode  was always my choice and showed if I cared or not.

Finally, I threatened separation nine years ago and she decided to get diagnosed with depression (she refused getting diagnosed with anything up until that point, and suggesting so was always met with demands to stop evaluating her). Nine years ago because of me threatening separation she did get diagnosed and has barely been suicidal since and takes her meds daily since.  All the other symptoms of BPD are still active though and it’s still abusive in the house, just nine years free of suicidal tendencies.

She also gets paranoid of demons a lot. We are spiritual people of faith (I am actually in ministry as a missionary which is my self employed work). She claims many of
My friends have demons and demands I break ties with them. She claimed my mom does. She also would wake up in the middle of the night a lot claiming demons are raping her or harsssing her and asking me to take care of them. I told her if she is a believer they shouldn’t harass you, and she would yell
At me that I take care of other people spiritually but not her. I usually gave in there to prove that’s not true and spent countless sleepless nights casting demons out of rooms and anointing door posts even though I personally believe demons occupy people and not things or rooms and mostly non believers who are involved in witchcraft.!I do cast out
Demons on the mission field. When she hears this she gets very angry at me and says I need to quit ministry because ai am Inviting attack on her and the family. Same if I planted a new church, she freezes in fear claiming spiritual attack is near and she will pay for it.  She once told me
To tell the elders ot a church their church church was
Filled with demons and if they don’t leave the building people will die from spiritual attacks. I refused to do so because that isn’t the nature of my God to let people die just because my wife’s perceives their building has Masonic influence on it (and even that with no proof, she just feels it). She wouldn’t talk to me for a week and was angry at me and blaming me for people’s impending deaths because I refused to warn the elders and if I wanted the spiritual headship of our family ot was my job and not here to tell them and I refused to.

Either way, DBT , she doesn’t even know she has BPD, our former counselors told me this and gave me books to read so I can work on my skills.

[alleyesonme]

Thank you for the information and details. You've been through a lot!

I know you're trying to do everything you can to save this marriage, but as others have said, it's not a bad idea to get all your ducks in a row just in case it doesn't work out. Any sort of documentation that you have about her suicidal episodes and/or late-night paranoia could help you down the road if things go south.

Also, it's clear that you're a person of character and morals. While you can do everything possible to be a great validator, that doesn't mean that her manipulation and abuse are excused or that you're to blame for any of those behaviors. Could better validation have helped the marriage? Sure, to some extent, but it takes two to make a marriage work, and it doesn't sound like she's ever even attempted to hold up her end of the bargain. Please don't beat yourself up by any means.

[alleyesonme]

Regarding DBT, I'm by no means an expert, but my understanding is that anyone can do - and benefit from - DBT even if they haven't been diagnosed with BPD. If there's a way for you to nudge her to a particular therapist who just so happens to specialize in DBT and privately express your concerns with that therapist before your W begins seeing him/her, she could potentially make meaningful progress even if she's never officially diagnosed with BPD. Even if the therapist is convinced that she has BPD, the therapist doesn't even need to tell your W about the diagnosis and may not even have to tell her what the type of therapy is called that they're doing. That could be a challenging needle to thread, but could change everything in your life if it somehow works.

[JewishHeart]

Thank you.

I actually did that with the most renown marriage counselor in our area. She also told me my wife more than likely has BPD with maybe some comorbid mild narcissism. She said she couldn’t diagnosis for sure without seeing her. All our other counselors who did see her confirm that this is highly likely.

She gave me the same advice as you did, not to tell her what the  counselors are telling me and to get her into an office that she recommended highly and they would be able to do exactly what you said under the pretext of marriage counseling. My wife did her research, said no to the counselor I suggested, set up marriage counseling with another counselor of her choice, and set up the first several meetings with her alone with the counselor before I get my turn. She also set up that it is crisis marriage counseling (meaning she just wants to work out how we move on from here, not reconciliation for now). She said she will make her decision whether she even wants to start moving to reconciliation or divorce in September of next year.

In the meantime, she wants to sale the house already and split the profits before any legal proceedings. She is trying to convince  my daughter yesterday to move back in with her and she will move to my grandpa’s house (he is a military vet and very toxic). This would be a toxic blend of epic proportions and very unhealthy for my kids! My family’s relationships is guarded with my grandpa with strong boundaries because of his toxicity. It’s strange that my wife is finding an ally with my grandfather who is barely even talking to my mother. They both don’t like my mom because she places strong boundaries on their crazy making. This is getting stranger by the day!

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi JewishHeart, 

I haven't yet had the chance to welcome you, so I want you to know that I am glad you are here.

You're dealing with tough things, and I am sorry. This stuff isn't for the faint of heart for sure. So much of what you shared I can relate to. My mom was an uBPD, and while my ex was not BPD, unknown to me when I was 20 years old, I married someone very much like her. Both of them were incredibly 'spiritually' minded, strong believers, and also walked on the edge of such extreme beliefs. I often wondered how this could be, but my T once told me that the part of the brain regulating emotions is also close to the spiritual center of our brains (hopefully I remember that correctly). Their beliefs could be mighty strange (speaking of the concerns about demons) and way out there, so to speak, and how often I questioned my own reality because of that. I was used to looking up to both of them, a child to a parent, a wife to a husband, and I had a lot of confusion as a result. It has taken me a long time to define my own reality separate from theirs and to trust my own thoughts and beliefs.  A lot of that change has come from learning to ask the Lord how he defines me and studying the Scriptures and listening to his heart for the oppressed, not by listening to how they wanted to define me or make me to be. The Bible is full of examples of why Jesus came, to set the captives free. All that being said, I'm not trying to tell you one way or the other about staying or leaving your marriage. I am trying to say that we aren't meant to live in such turmoil and conflict as a very difficult relationship brings about. I can tell that you love your wife, that you are working hard to learn how to do the dance differently, and that you really do want the right thing.

Have you ever heard of the term Behaviors: Splitting: painted black? (Note that about 4 posts in is another embedded link to the workshop). I wonder if your uBPDw hasn't split you black? My mom, when she split someone, she would turn her back on them forever. If your wife feels that you abandoned her, she will be much more prone to this.

I needed to leave my marriage of 35 years when I was no longer safe. I had hoped my ex would take the time to re-evaluate and see what he could do to change, but that was a false hope on my part. Like you, I could not heal in the unhealthy environment of my marriage. It took stepping away from the toxicity in order for me to heal. It was quite some time before I was able to lower my hypervigilance so that I could sleep at night. It is very normal that we cannot heal in a toxic environment because most of our emotional energy is going towards survival, so please do not beat yourself up over needing to separate in order to get better. I have had to unlearn and relearn many things too, and it is all a part of becoming more aware of who we are.

I can also relate to what your children are going through. A pwBPD fears the independence that children should naturally grow into, and they keep tight restrictions around them to keep them dependent upon that parent. My siblings and I were sent to a Christian school so that we would not be like everyone else 'in the world.' We had to follow the school rules and the home rules. It kept us under her control. Homeschooling is similar and keeps your children close to her.

Those are some of my initial thoughts. Keep hanging in there, keep posting and I am so glad you are in T. It has been a Godsend for me.

Wools

[maxsterling]

FWIW, one piece of advice I'd pass along - if you really want this marriage to last - is to make it your goal to become a professional validator as soon as possible. People with BPD weren't validated at all as children, and that's often one major reason they develop this disorder. No matter how insulting or outlandish her comments or behaviors are, try your best to keep your cool and validate, validate, validate. That's much easier said than done, and I wasn't able to do it myself. This trial separation may actually be the perfect format for you to gain some practice, as you can validate via text or email rather than being in the proverbial "warzone" at home. If you're able to do accomplish this, it's possible that you'll see some incremental changes in her behavior, which could give the two of you the necessary momentum to improve your marriage.

^^^this^^^

I sometimes feel that I would need a masters in psychology to be successful here.  Yes, validate as you can.  But bear in mind you don't have the training for this, that it doesn't always work, and to not beat yourself up if you aren't an "expert validator".

My wife actually demands validation, while the act of validating on my part is INvalidating me.  The demand for validation is often a trap or mirage, and is no-win for me.  Demand for validation over something I didn't witness or have no knowledge of.  About the only thing I can validate there is that she is upset, and then I am accused of placating her.  Her demanding that I validate something that is invalid.  In other words, she may demand I validate something that is either incredibly illogical or outright untrue.  In these cases my W is demanding that I validate that her illogical or incorrect feeling is actually true.  And if I try to highlight those are her "feelings" and those feelings are different than mine, she is wise to that and demands I quit talking to her like a psychologist. 

Once again - if you can do it this can help, but don't beat yourself up if you can't.  Most people can't.  Even trained professionals. 

[ForeverDad]

Most people can't.  Even trained professionals.

It has been said over the years that some therapists limit themselves to one BPD patient at a time.  And even then some have to go to their own therapists.  If it's that difficult for trained professionals, then don't feel you have to play against major league teams when, by comparison, all you have is minor league or amateur skills.

[JewishHeart]

Update:

My wife wanted the first two months of meetings with a marriage counselor who is also a clinical psychologist. I met him for the first time last week alone. It was the first time he ever met me and after four sessions with my wife had already suspected histrionic disorder and possibly narcissism. I asked him if it was BPD and what the other professional who never saw my wife suggested to me from my stories. He said he definitely leaned more histrionic narcissism with the full spectrum being more histrionic and this was just from observing her behavior and never meeting me.   He said he always fights for marriages and has a lot of compassion and is on both of our sides. However, he wanted to prepare me that for our marriage to survive it would take a miracle. He is a Christian minister too so he believes in miracles and marriage, but was preparing me it would take a miracle. He also said the onus is on her getting help for the disorder and that for the meantime he recommended little contact with mediation for business issues and revisit marriage counseling in a year (if it lasts that long). He did say again they always fight for marriage, but she doesn’t seem cooperative at the moment because of the personality disorder.

Now I’m dealing with a lot of crazy making around kids and custody during the separation because I want to fight for my kids to have a healthy home. This was especially after my childrens  counselor told me (she knows and meets with both of us) I’m the only one who could provide it and I need to fight for my kids.

A lot of wisdom and decision making to do. Thanks for the validation and encouragement here!

[ForeverDad]

Our experience here is that many counselors and therapists decline to testify in domestic court, for a very good reason, they don't want to be sued (financial risk) or have complaints made to their licensing boards (professional risk).  However, in many of our custody cases we get a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) as the children's lawyer or a Custody Evaluator (CE).  The counselors or other professionals are willing to discuss their observations and conclusions with a CE or GAL who is required to report to the court..

Just be very careful to select an experienced, non-partial and proactive CE or GAL.  Just like lawyers, many are not experienced enough to handle the difficult cases and some may have a default bias for mothers based on past policies in prior decades (such as in courts or the Tender Years Doctrine which held that mothers were always the best parent).

If you don't have William Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder then get it now.  It is for you to read, not the problem spouse.  Keep it private away and from her access.

It is rather rare to read here that a professional comments on "histrionic".  I believe all members who reported it — there have been some — had an especially hard time getting a divorce and subsequent post-marriage parenting life to remain calm.  You are well advised to listen to your local professionals and follow their guidance.  Also, you will also need an experienced, proactive lawyer.  Not just any lawyer will do, you need far more than form handling and hand holding.