Right now, today, this is how I feel.

[Our abuse recovery guide]

As often as I have heard the stupid advice to eliminate all negative people from one’s life, I’ve always pushed back - until now. I fear I just don’t have the energy or ability to maintain an understanding and helpful outlook in the face of Borderline Personality Disorder. Not to mention that after the emotional battery I’ve taken from life, I’ve suffered enough psychological damage of my own to send me to the furthest reaches of whatever emotional sanctuary I can find at the mere hint of more abuse.  But the BPD behavior of his spouse has repeatedly sent my beloved son into that sanctuary after me to deliver yet another emotional beat down - and he comes for me. That is the level of depraved behavior he is trying to avoid having aimed at himself.  It’s clear that demeaning someone else is the only way she has learned to establish the dominance and control that will allow his wife to rebalance her emotions and repair her ego after one of her fits - and she’s taught him that if I am not the one punished and crushed into submission, he will be. I’m not up to suffering any of it any more.

But suffer I will, regardless. Setting boundaries does not work because a 40 year-old undiagnosed, untreated, unrepentant BPD can devise ways to deliver emotional pain beyond anything a normal person could ever imagine. And she is intermittently reinforced by her parents and now my son. In every instance where I have attempted to advise DiL that what she is doing is not OK and set limits, I have been set upon, accused, lied about, judged, censured, censored, criticized, demeaned, derided, or otherwise intimidated, mischaracterized, and verbally attacked. When I have stood my ground, ultimately I have been shunned - the most psychologically damaging thing you can do to anyone ever. 

So kicking the extreme negativity of BPD to the curb looks like the only way out. Tragically, it means I will lose my son and my grandchild in the process. But then, I really already have lost them in the sense that I have not been allowed a normal relationship with either one of them in the first place because BPD has been controlling all interactions with them for years.

Since I have repeatedly shed emotional blood from the slings and arrows and thousand little cuts of BPD for those dozen years, not even knowing what it was, and since I am currently shunned for the 4th time in as many years, right now, today, I feel like I’ve just had enough. It helps to finally know what has been going on all these years but not enough to want to endure another single minute around anyone with BPD or anyone who is under their control.  And, since I am powerless to stop it, I certainly don’t want to have to watch what is in store for that precious child.

Boundaries:

I want our relationship to work, but I can’t handle the stress caused by regular private, and now public, rants aimed at me over an innocuous comment, an imaginary slight, or a situation I’m handling that is outside your lane and not your concern. Given my history, I will not always be successful in diffusing the situation or weathering the storm optimally. If the harangue continues beyond a certain threshold there’s a good chance I will become defensive, especially if you have come into my home for the express purpose of causing a confrontation. Since defensiveness might threaten you emotionally given your history, it’s best to just not go off on me in the first place or send my son to do so. Learn to sit with your emotions without ramping up your anxiety and involving him in it. Observe your own thoughts and feelings until the need to dominate and control someone passes. Then talk to your therapist about what triggered your feelings or why you thought you needed to try to coerce me into substituting your judgement for my own.

I realize that you learned certain coping behaviors to manage some truly awful childhood circumstances and I recognize that you may have developed a strategy of trying to squash problem behaviors in others before you ended up feeling abandoned or humiliated. However, I do not, have not, and will not ever behave the way your own family did so there is no reason to continually try to squash ME! I don’t deserve it and unlike others, I WILL NOT EVER cave in to such treatment allowing myself to be dominated and controlled to avoid the tantrums of someone else’s poorly socialized child. Since you know that my career  entailed dealing effectively with lots of poorly socialized children, you surely know better than to doubt that I mean it. Indeed in almost every instance where we have had conflict, it has been as a result of me not allowing you to dominate and control me.

When I have refused to be dominated and controlled - bullied - I have been shunned and prevented from having a relationship with my son and granddaughter. Your rage fit in the restaurant last June, and shunning us since, WAS. THE. LAST. TIME. If you continue to shun your daughter’s beloved Grammy and Grampy preventing us from being a part of her life, both your husband and your daughter will be disinherited completely and permanently. We will leave our entire estate to charity and none of you will benefit from a single cent of it, ever. Ask yourself if the possibility of depriving your family of a million dollars is enough incentive to learn how to control yourself, how to stop flying off the handle, how to stop blaming and vilifying everyone around you, and learn how to be an accountable adult instead of a miserable, vindictive child. You can grow up, you can heal, you can live a better life. And I hope you dedicate yourself to that challenge before you damage your little daughter as much as you have been damaged.
                                                     ***********************
I have not said any of this to anyone except my husband and whoever reads it here so thanks for listening. We will see what the new year brings but my husband is ready to make an appointment with our estate attorney.

[Catra]

As often as I have heard the stupid advice to eliminate all negative people from one’s life, I’ve always pushed back - until now. I fear I just don’t have the energy or ability to maintain an understanding and helpful outlook in the face of Borderline Personality Disorder. Not to mention that after the emotional battery I’ve taken from life, I’ve suffered enough psychological damage of my own to send me to the furthest reaches of whatever emotional sanctuary I can find at the mere hint of more abuse.  But the BPD behavior of his spouse has repeatedly sent my beloved son into that sanctuary after me to deliver yet another emotional beat down - and he comes for me. That is the level of depraved behavior he is trying to avoid having aimed at himself.  It’s clear that demeaning someone else is the only way she has learned to establish the dominance and control that will allow his wife to rebalance her emotions and repair her ego after one of her fits - and she’s taught him that if I am not the one punished and crushed into submission, he will be. I’m not up to suffering any of it any more.

But suffer I will, regardless. Setting boundaries does not work because a 40 year-old undiagnosed, untreated, unrepentant BPD can devise ways to deliver emotional pain beyond anything a normal person could ever imagine. And she is intermittently reinforced by her parents and now my son. In every instance where I have attempted to advise DiL that what she is doing is not OK and set limits, I have been set upon, accused, lied about, judged, censured, censored, criticized, demeaned, derided, or otherwise intimidated, mischaracterized, and verbally attacked. When I have stood my ground, ultimately I have been shunned - the most psychologically damaging thing you can do to anyone ever. 

So kicking the extreme negativity of BPD to the curb looks like the only way out. Tragically, it means I will lose my son and my grandchild in the process. But then, I really already have lost them in the sense that I have not been allowed a normal relationship with either one of them in the first place because BPD has been controlling all interactions with them for years.

Since I have repeatedly shed emotional blood from the slings and arrows and thousand little cuts of BPD for those dozen years, not even knowing what it was, and since I am currently shunned for the 4th time in as many years, right now, today, I feel like I’ve just had enough. It helps to finally know what has been going on all these years but not enough to want to endure another single minute around anyone with BPD or anyone who is under their control.  And, since I am powerless to stop it, I certainly don’t want to have to watch what is in store for that precious child.

Boundaries:

I want our relationship to work, but I can’t handle the stress caused by regular private, and now public, rants aimed at me over an innocuous comment, an imaginary slight, or a situation I’m handling that is outside your lane and not your concern. Given my history, I will not always be successful in diffusing the situation or weathering the storm optimally. If the harangue continues beyond a certain threshold there’s a good chance I will become defensive, especially if you have come into my home for the express purpose of causing a confrontation. Since defensiveness might threaten you emotionally given your history, it’s best to just not go off on me in the first place or send my son to do so. Learn to sit with your emotions without ramping up your anxiety and involving him in it. Observe your own thoughts and feelings until the need to dominate and control someone passes. Then talk to your therapist about what triggered your feelings or why you thought you needed to try to coerce me into substituting your judgement for my own.

I realize that you learned certain coping behaviors to manage some truly awful childhood circumstances and I recognize that you may have developed a strategy of trying to squash problem behaviors in others before you ended up feeling abandoned or humiliated. However, I do not, have not, and will not ever behave the way your own family did so there is no reason to continually try to squash ME! I don’t deserve it and unlike others, I WILL NOT EVER cave in to such treatment allowing myself to be dominated and controlled to avoid the tantrums of someone else’s poorly socialized child. Since you know that my career  entailed dealing effectively with lots of poorly socialized children, you surely know better than to doubt that I mean it. Indeed in almost every instance where we have had conflict, it has been as a result of me not allowing you to dominate and control me.

When I have refused to be dominated and controlled - bullied - I have been shunned and prevented from having a relationship with my son and granddaughter. Your rage fit in the restaurant last June, and shunning us since, WAS. THE. LAST. TIME. If you continue to shun your daughter’s beloved Grammy and Grampy preventing us from being a part of her life, both your husband and your daughter will be disinherited completely and permanently. We will leave our entire estate to charity and none of you will benefit from a single cent of it, ever. Ask yourself if the possibility of depriving your family of a million dollars is enough incentive to learn how to control yourself, how to stop flying off the handle, how to stop blaming and vilifying everyone around you, and learn how to be an accountable adult instead of a miserable, vindictive child. You can grow up, you can heal, you can live a better life. And I hope you dedicate yourself to that challenge before you damage your little daughter as much as you have been damaged.
                                                     ***********************
I have not said any of this to anyone except my husband and whoever reads it here so thanks for listening. We will see what the new year brings but my husband is ready to make an appointment with our estate attorney.

[Couscous]

While I don't have any experience with being shunned by a DIL, I do have lots of experience with being shunned by family. And I am here to let you know that even though it's probably one of the most painful things in life to have to endure, you can stand it. For me it's the feeling of utter powerlessness that seems to be what's really is at the heart of the issue.

You may need to distance yourself for a time while you regroup and come up with a new strategy, and you may actually have more leverage than you think (aside from the inheritance). There may be alternatives to No Contact that you haven't yet explored which you could try at some point. Look into the Karpman Drama Triangle if you haven't yet, and the book The Dance of Anger has some really great strategies that are worth trying before making the decision to do a family cutoff. I think that what's most important is to avoid making impulsive decisions in the heat of the moment that might serve only to add fuel to the fire. For sure you will feel better initially but you may not get the peace you may be seeking in the long-term.

[beatricex]

Hi Catra,
I hear you and understand as my husband and I are currently shunned by his adult daughter (my step daughter), who has two kids under the age of 4.  It's tough.  Our marriage counselor suggested she may have BPD.  This sent me into a spiral of sorts, as my mom is BPD.  I really started imagining the worst for those kids, and had to take about 12 steps backwards.  I also found this board.  You are not alone, here we get it.

Side note: You may want to try posting this over on the Child With part of the board, this is the Parent/Sibling With side.  You will likely get more responses over there.  Usually a moderator moves them, but I noticed yours wasn't.

b

[Catra]

I did my best to post my first post to InLaw with BPD. I’m finding the site difficult to navigate and haven’t the slightest idea how to move the post. Perhaps an admin could help with that.

Thank you so much for the responses. It is such a relief to be able to express my feelings among people who have had similar experiences. It’s amazing to finally be able to put a name to what has been at the root of all the inexplicably inappropriate interactions I have been the brunt of for so long.  

Without even knowing what we were dealing with, my husband and I made a quiet plan several years ago to make sure I was never alone with DIL the two to three times a week I was called on to provide free babysitting. So I have long since bailed from the triangle before I knew it was one. My son, of course, is the rescuer. Very early on, I joined him in that. Even after she battered him, and he said, “Violence is a deal breaker, mama.” I told him it was what she knew and he had known her background when he married her. I thought she deserved a  chance to experience what a loving family was like. And, yes I thought love would heal her. I just didn’t know how sick she was. After she battered my son to keep him from leaving to escape what I now know was one of her tantrums, I talked to her for hours as if she were my own daughter and helped her examine what had happened. But I also told her if I ever saw my son’s face bruised and bleeding again I would call police and sign a complaint against her myself. This was a very loving exchange and she never objected to a single thing I said. I let her talk her heart out and I had a lot of compassion for her.  I offered to pay for counseling for them both. They never went.

Though DIL always found ways to try and control the entire family, she began to focus on me after the baby was born. I loved every minute of being Grammy as long as I could avoid DIL. But constantly there was some attempt to demean me, demean my son, my husband, her father, her mother, their friends and eventually she started demeaning her daughter - to us, her beloved Grammy and Grampy - in front of the child.

And that’s what she was doing, demeaning her child in front of everyone at the table during a special family dinner when I made a very innocuous comment to try and interrupt the unkind words she was spewing at her little daughter. Long story short after she drove my son to get up and leave, dragged her 3 year-old out of the booth and had an enraged shouting fit, returning to the table twice to yell some more with the baby crying on her hip, with my sister and husband pleading with her to just go, I finally raised my voice and said, “Get Out!”  On the third repeat, she finally went.

That was two days after I had finally been able to have my mother’s ashes interred 15 months after she died alone in her home while I was sick with what could only have been COVID. DIL had been furious at me through the entire ordeal because she wanted to send some of her friends in to take everything out of my mom’s house and sell it on eBay. I didn’t even know them so I resisted her. We did not argue over it. I just never agreed to it. The day before the dinner, my son had come over to my mom’s house to help my sister, my niece, and me clear some things out. The several hours he helped us was the longest time since he married DIL a dozen years ago that she had allowed him to spend with his family without being present herself.  

So she was pissed. The beat down was going to happen. I did not cause it, I could not cure it, but I did put a stop to it. I’m sure it could have been handled better by someone who was not elderly, not struggling with long haul COVID brain fog, not exhausted, not stressed to the max, and not grieving. But I did what I did and now I’m excluded. It’s honestly a huge relief. Because I was walking on eggshells to try to stay in my granddaughter’s life. I told my husband over and over, “I’m teaching her how to treat me,” every time she pulled another dirty trick and I said nothing. We both validated her, he listened to her ad nauseum while I gave her a break from her toddler. I did everything I knew to do (and I knew quite a lot, it had worked for 12 years) to keep her from shunning us. And she did it anyway. Because that’s what she wanted to do. No amount of communication lessons, validation strategies, or wrapping her up in cotton wool would have changed that. Cruel, controlling, and vindictive is how she is. She’s 40. She’s not going to change. She doesn’t think she needs to.

So here is what I’m wondering now. The book, “Stop Walking on Eggshells” seems to be an instruction manual for doing just that. For tiptoeing around and molly coddling a bunch of very poorly socialized people who get something out of demeaning and controlling other people. I don’t care what they get out of it. I don’t care why they think they need to do it. It’s deviant. THEY need to learn how to be better people. My communication skills are just fine for everyone else I encounter. They were just fine for keeping a marriage and home together and navigating my husbands drinking. We’ve been together 50 years. They were just fine for raising a gifted son. They were just fine for co-workers and bosses and instructors and classmates and administrators and parents. They were just fine for the special needs, behavior disordered, learning disabled adolescents I worked with. I was very good at what I did. I even managed very well at my job through multiple surgeries, chemo and radiation. But eventually the combination of fighting for my life and working in a very unsupportive, high stress, high risk environment took their toll and I was diagnosed with PTSD. I had counseling throughout to help me through it all. I survived. I stopped having panic attacks that put me in the hospital twice, and I figured out a way to retire early and devise a sanctuary for myself in my home.

Then my son asked if he could move back home and bring his girlfriend who he intended to marry. I had just had my fifth hip surgery and my mom had just had a heart attack. GF helped get the house in order for my mom to stay with us while she and I convalesced. As soon as mom went home, son and GF moved in. Huge mistake. But I made it work even after she lost her job and sat around for months not taking a single interview.

They got married, I helped them with the wedding. Her parents did not. For ten years, I did not walk on eggshells, I communicated forthrightly and I stood my ground when DIL tried to control what I did, who I invited to my house for the holidays, whether I could disallow alcohol in my home, whether I had to accommodate a recently evicted family member so he wouldn’t boycott their wedding. Even whether I could open windows in a sweltering room without consulting her first. Sudden menopause caused by chemo is a bitch. I had some difficulties but I navigated them all without having to learn new communication skills which are the exact equivalent of walking on eggshells.

So we worked things out - until the baby was born. Then DIL had the ultimate weapon to use against me and she did. I let her get away with it for three and a half years. But when she began demeaning the child just like she demeaned every other person close to her, I tried to interrupt it and for that I’m excluded. So be it. I’m done. I don’t need to learn how to keep her from flying into a rage or being cruel or melting down into a puddle of self pity.

If BPD requires a gigantic library of books to teach people how to cater to it, how to “validate” it and yes how to walk on eggshells to keep bombshells from going off, that is the very definition of enabling in my book. The rest of my life is too short and I’ve been through too much to take this on. Not my circus, not my monkeys. Not learning how to indulge BPD.

That’s how I feel tonight. We’ll see what tomorrow’s reading brings.

[Notwendy]

I understand how hurtful the behaviors can be ( I have a mother with BPD). Books such as the one you are reading are helpful in explaining BPD and also stopping behaviors such as walking on eggshells. The topic of validation is also part of understanding. However, each relationship is different- BPD is on a spectrum, and what to do about the relationship remains a personal choice. You have that choice.

From your posts, I can see how hurt you are feeling. Self care is important and it is also important to recognize that when you are feeling hurt and burned out- you may not have the emotional energy to support or validate someone else. You need to take care of yourself first and you have been through a lot- Covid,  the loss of your parent. You are dealing with your own feelings right now and that is OK.

I know many of us have hoped that love could change a person with BPD and sadly learned that we don't have that power. Many of the tools in books like SWOE can help us identify our enabling behavior and other ways we participate in dysfunctional dynamics, but ultimately we can not control someone else, and we are not mental health professionals.

In addition, BPD is on a spectrum- some situations are more difficult than others.

Boundaries- boundaries are for us, not them. We don't tell people what they need to do to respect our boundaries. We simply need to decide how we are going to respond to those behaviors. Telling your son or DIL what they need to do is likely to fuel the relationship drama. Better that you decide and just act on it.

If your home is your sanctuary- they stay out of it. I know you love your son and grandchild, but you are not a free babysitter to be used by her. Seems you have been more than welcoming and supportive of them, and you don't have to tolerate how they treat you.

Your son made his choice. I know it's sad to see how he's being treated but he's chosen that. You can't rescue him.

If you witness or suspect child abuse- call child protective services. Let CPS handle this.

You can take care of you. It sounds like you have had enough- at least for a while. You can do what you need to do to give yourself a safe space from this.

[beatricex]

Totally get it Catra, thank you for coming back and posting more.

Believe it or not, you are helping me process my pain.  Story with my step daughter is, she gave my husband an ultimatum that he must divorce me, or she would withhold the granddaughters.  So I truly do get what you're going through.  I was at anger a year and a half ago.  I think it was May of 2020 that she cut us off.  Then I went through all the stages of grief.  Also, newly in menopause (isn't it fun?)

Can you tell me more about your hip surgeries and the cancer?  Also your PTSD?  You have been going through a lot.  I'm glad you're taking care of you now, it's not your job to coddle this grown woman, who I agree, is abusive to your son.  That's a tough pill to swallow.  I would also be worried about the kids, as she has physically abused him before.

Hear to listen without judgement.  You did nothing wrong.  Hey, I just had to breathe, exist and our little family and happiness was wrecked.  How dare I,

It does help that my husband and I are on the same page about his adult daughter.  We are not chasing her, our counselor said not to do it, it's like falling in quicksand.  Since my Mom is BPD, this isn't my first rodeo, so I know my stepdaughter will be back, like nothing happened, trying to smooth it all over (also, she already cut us off once before, before she had children).  The extreme discomfort that is created when they initiate their own abandonment makes it impossible for them to stay away for very long.  She has also cut off her bio Mom.  The only relative on her side she's speaking to is her older sister (we think, we're not completely sure since they're best friends then enemies pretty regularly - the jealousy thing). 

The way we reconciled with her the last time is, supposedly, a man came into her workplace (she sells makeup, she's an independent beauty consultant) and "started choking her."  She called Dad.  Dad sympathized, wam, back to normal.  I didn't buy a word of this story, why weren't police called?  A manager was not even contacted?  Sounds like if it really happened it would have been on the evening news, she works at a high end mall in the most wealthy part of the state we live in.  She eventually came to our house at the coaching of her MIL and apologized to me.  I, of course, apologized too.  At the moment I cannot recall exactly what I apologized for, because of course I didn't do anything to her.  I think I sent her a text message she did not like.  She is a very jealous person, innocuous stuff sets her off, like you have explained.  You had really good reasons for being "off your game" but since they can't or won't empathize with us, we must be perfect or like a bloodhound, they will sniff out we are weak, and attack. 

 
b

[Catra]

Mind reading? Seriously?

We have to learn how to read their minds? We have to have perfectly validating body language at all times regardless of what WE are going through - the aftermath of cancer treatment, PTSD, orthopedic surgery, murderous menopause symptoms, long-term COVID, the loss of our mother during lockdowns that prevented us from even burying her? A mere glance or failure to provide the expected nod or eye contact can set them off so WE have to WALK ON FREAKING EGGSHELLS to the point of trying to read their damned minds and maintain perfect body language? Oh, hell to the no!

To me, that’s exactly what this article instructs - more ways to walk on eggshells, not less.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Let her own mother validate her when she’s trashing my son and belittling their precious daughter. Let her father reach for his wallet whenever she obliquely expresses that she wants money. That’s what he’s always done so I’m sure that’s part of why we were ambushed when I didn’t respond with the same reach-for-my-wallet body language and hand over my inheritance as soon as DIL started talking about needing money to start a business.

This was all realized in hindsight. I did not have a clue what was going on until after the restaurant debacle and my sister and I began going over prior events and piecing things together to try and figure out what the hell had set off the DiL nuclear warhead.

DiL didn’t even talk directly to me about her business plans. She talked to my sister while I was engaged with my granddaughter. I remember thinking it was odd at the time that she hadn’t mentioned anything to me and was going into great detail with my sister. But it makes perfect sense when you realize DiL wanted our inheritance and was trying to bring my sister on board with her plan to get it. We did not decline a request. DiL never made one. We were enthusiastic about her ideas. But we didn’t both jump up and say we would go to the bank immediately and fork over our inheritance. I guess not doing so just wasn’t the right body language and not validating enough for DiL.

During the exchange we had no idea what she was getting at because no normal person would ever have hatched a plan to get our inheritance away from us before we had even buried our mom. Normal minds cannot go where BPD goes!

So I’ve had enough. I’m just done. I am not a therapist. It is way above my pay grade and not even my damned job to try and deal with someone else’s emotionally unstable daughter. I’ve been dealing with it, more successfully than most from what I’ve been reading, not even knowing what it was, for over a decade. But then Kim Jung Rocket Girl got her hands on nukes in the form of a child she is willing to use to threaten and control her world.

When I was working, I spent many hours in seminars and trainings and classes and I maintained a library of articles and books for an Early Intervention program where I learned not to reward bad behavior. I learned not to even attend to bad behavior because that’s the only way to extinguish it. Time out and do not engage until the tantrum is over. That is what teaches children to control their emotions and behavior. 18 years’ experience plus raising my son proves to me that that’s what works to put a stop to fits of rage so the perpetrator can begin to learn a healthier way of being in the world. After the fit is curtailed follow-up teaching must be appropriate. But it does not involve mind reading or enabling validation of their unacceptable behavior! And none of it works if nobody ever does a proper correction until AFTER they have a raging, emotionally crippled, adult BPD on their hands.

Having been born crippled I know it’s possible to learn to stand up and walk straight. I was determined to achieve my goals despite abandonment in hospitals, despite abuse and neglect from nurses. My first memory is of waking up alone, in pain, wretching from Ether withdrawal, and immobilized in a cast from hip to toe having had my femur cut, rotated and pinned through the cast to correct hip dysplasia. Those were the days when doctors thought very young children did not feel pain because their brains were still immature. So I got no analgesia after the Ether wore off. None. I went through this twice before I was three.

Even though forced to go without any pain relief whatsoever, I learned not to cry due to threats of slapping, spanking, and the use of needles if I did. And they also told me they wouldn’t let my parents come back. From time to time I was given enemas. I don’t know if they were necessary or not. I just know they were traumatic because nothing was explained to me. No one even spoke except to issue orders to me for how to position my body.

When the pin through my femur broke inside the cast and began to gouge my leg, no one knew until the cast was removed because I didn’t cry. It’s a wonder they changed the cast before gangrene took my leg. So PTSD probably started for me way back then. But nobody ever knew it because I never attacked others to deal with my fears and abandonment issues. It took four more hip surgeries and cancer treatment before PTSD was recognized by a therapist because I began shaking and was unable to speak properly.

I had sought counseling for help with what I was dealing with. I didn’t throw fits and rage at loved ones because I was in the throes of overwhelming emotions they did not understand. I can tick off a few boxes in the Avoidant Personality category. But most people who know me would never describe me as avoidant. Warrior, survivor, activist, hero, are words that have been used to describe me. Because I never sat around and expected to be treated with kid gloves. I DID things - like work for change, learn, teach, and help others - to earn my feelings of validation.

Growing up, my parents were both working too hard to to try and keep us fed, clothed, and housed to be able to nurture us much. They had not been nurtured themselves and had little clue. So I learned to provide the validation and nurturing I needed for myself. I’m not perfect, it’s hard for me to make new friends and during a prolonged verbal assault I can become defensive but DiL is the only one who has ever delivered a prolonged verbal assault on me so I haven’t vilified everyone I ever knew to the point of driving them away. I didn’t make a mess of my marriage, crawl into a bottle, use drugs, start cutting, threaten suicide, verbally abuse my mother, or take pills.

I came of age during the 60’s and I WAS there. Not drunk, not high, not raging when things frightened me like the pictures of mangled bodies of soldiers and Viet Kong on the news every night or the assassinations of leader after leader or seeing people of color who looked just like my dad being attacked by dogs and water hoses.

Boundary Reminder:
I will not tolerate screaming public fits aimed at me, aimed at my sister, aimed at my husband, aimed at my son, and especially not aimed at a defenseless child. I didn’t cause it, I can’t cure it, and I can’t control it. But I don’t have to friggin watch it! 

What needs to be said to DiL, but not by me:
If this is what you want your life to be like - and based on lack of effort to improve the only person you can control, it is -  then be my guest. Have at it. Go ahead. Do the same things to your little daughter that were done to you. Make sure you send your husband to demand an apology from ME after you have gone off and unleashed your worst to date, especially when he saw it coming and bailed without taking his daughter.  Make sure your therapist tells him he has to support you no matter what you do to his elderly mother or his little daughter because you can’t cope with your emotions and he must not ever invalidate you. Then nobody will be there to stop you - except you. And you CAN stop you. You’re the ONLY one who can stop you. But not by insisting you are overly sensitive and therefore can’t help going nuclear on people around you if they fail to read your damned mind or display perfect body language.
                                                  ******************
READER PLEASE NOTE: I have not said anything about boundaries to son or DiL. Nor would I. Nothing in my posts has been discussed with them. Don’t worry, I have not dredged up my own trauma and thereby “invalidated” DiL. It’s just how I feel right now, today. Thanks for the space to vent and work it out.

We have been shunned since the restaurant incident in June. THEY have done a family cut off. We have not. But we are frankly relieved. We are looking forward to Christmas alone away from the high anxiety DiL has whipped herself into every holiday season since we’ve known her. Instead, we will use some time away to grieve the relationships we had with our son and granddaughter as if they have died. While there may be contact with them in the future, we have no expectation of our relationships ever returning to the way they were before. My heart aches for my son who will now have to navigate his wife’s mental illness without the breaks we gave her several times a week. And most likely without a diagnosis or the knowledge of what he is really dealing with. I look at pictures and videos of my granddaughter every day - the ones that family members shared with me after DiL removed me from the family album. I treasure the time I had with her and hope it was enough to make her resilient through what lies ahead. My heart breaks for my little granddaughter who has to learn how to survive in the environment she must live in - like we all do. Maybe it will make her a warrior, a survivor, an activist, a hero.

 

[Catra]

Hi b,

Wow, that’s quite a story about the choking incident. And SD demanded that your husband divorce you?  I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around how someone can do something like that.

You got it right, I’m solidly at anger in the grief process right now. That’s why I’m so thankful I can express it here so I don’t do so to any other family member.

I have had insane hot flashes - really vascular instability - brought on by chemo for twenty years. I have to get up at least once a night and go outside where I literally steam for about five minutes before I can stand to go back inside. I have to change my clothes and sometimes put towels in the bed because it’s too wet to sleep in. Can’t agree that it’s much fun, but I’ve learned to live with it. What kinds of things do you do to cope?

I was a mandated reporter when I was working, so I know what to look for as far as physical abuse. I can’t believe DiL would ever do anything physical to her child. But I never believed she was capable of a lot of things. As far as I know, she has never been physical with my son again after that one time right after they were married. But the beginning of coercive control and emotional abuse is getting hard to deny. That may be another reason why I’m banned. She knows my background and training as a mandated reporter.

I don’t understand why she seems to be escalating right now. Things had been going smoothly for some time. Not getting my mom’s money must have been a big part of it. Not being able to control how I handled mom’s things could have been another part. And she definitely resented my son spending time with his family. Or it could have been as simple as we were late meeting her at the restaurant. Oh, well it hurts my brain to try and figure out her motives.

I’m glad you have your husband’s support. So do I. Mine is heartbroken over not seeing our granddaughter. I’m sure yours is too. It has occurred to us that my husband could be accused of molestation or something because one time DiL overreacted ridiculously to him just saying he was going to tickle our granddaughter when he was playing with her like any grandpa would. DiL’s attitude just crushed him. We were all right in the same room and DiL acted like my husband was Chester the Molester, grabbing the baby and taking her in another room.

DiL has shunned her own mother repeatedly too. But her own parents always cave to her behavior because they ARE responsible for damaging her. They were both violent alcoholics when she was growing up. Her father has admitted as much to us. He’s a pretty nice guy now that he’s sober but he admits that there were serious physical fights when his kids were young that they witnessed. He was still drinking when our kids met and he was still engaging in serious parental alienation for several years after that even though his kids were grown. DiL’s brother is really messed up too and she has shunned him for years - with good reason if her account of him is to be believed. So her parents are still parenting out of guilt and she is reinforced to repeat any and all of her abuse of them. They always come crawling back for more so I’m sure she thinks we will too. But, like you, we are not pursuing her.

What will you do if your SD comes back again like nothing ever happened? I don’t think I could refuse to see my granddaughter. But I’m not sure that would be best for her since she could be put through losing us again repeatedly.

Tell me about your mother. When was she diagnosed with BPD?  How old were you when you knew for sure something was wrong? Is she trying to improve? How were you affected? DiL says her mother is bi-polar but maybe she’s BPD too. Or maybe not anything but alcoholic. DiL accuses everyone she can’t get along with of being mentally ill.

I feel like I need to apologize for my rants, but it’s helping me process like you said. So, sorry, not sorry.

[Catra]

Hi Notwendy,

I am finding SWOE helpful in illuminating the many aspects of BPD. But I’m sure you can tell I’m having a hard time with some of the advice. It’s like a guy said in an AA meeting one time. “WE’RE the ones with the problem, but we tell our wives THEY’RE crazy and they go get counseling to fix THEMSELVES.” That’s kinda how I’m experiencing SWOE so far.

I’m pretty sure my posts have made it clear that I don’t have the emotional energy to support or validate someone with BPD and that I doubt I ever will in the future. I haven’t engaged at all with DiL in six months and possibly won’t ever again now that I know what I’m up against. Even if DiL hadn’t shunned us for the last six months, her behavior in the restaurant was beyond anything I will ever be able to deal with. I’m very aware that I’m in no condition to have anything to do with DiL - now that I know what her condition is. I did not have that knowledge last June.

Again, had I known DiL was BPD when my son was first dating her, I would never have thought a loving family could make her whole. I was given to believe she was ACA, not BPD.

As far as enabling her I don’t think I’ve had enough contact with her to have done that. I haven’t been alone with her in years. She is not my daughter, I did not raise her, she only lived with me briefly more than a decade ago. From time to time she has inserted herself in my business such as throwing a fit after I invited a family friend to MY home for the holidays without consulting her. Throwing a fit when I discreetly advised her father that we needed to adhere to our rule of no alcohol in our home. And most recently pressuring me to turn my mother’s things over to her to dispose of. She has always spiraled into an anxiety storm during the holidays. Usually she would go after me to give herself a sense of dominance and control. It was often unpleasant, but I handled it and we would have a happy holiday despite her crap. I did not enable any of that behavior, I did not cave to it, I did not reinforce it. But unfortunately, my son did having been convinced by DiL and more recently her therapist that it is his duty as her husband to support and validate her regardless of how she treats him or his mother or his father or her mother or her father or their friends or their little daughter.

I did endure DiL being snarky and insulting quite a bit after the baby was born because she demonstrated immediately that she would use my affection for her child against me. I handled that effectively for over three years. I didn’t cause DiL’s demeaning behavior, I couldn’t cure it, but I did control it by letting most of it go in one ear and out the other and making sure I was never in a room alone with her for more than a very few minutes. She still manufactured reasons to shun us several times but we handled that effectively too until my attempt to interrupt her belittling her daughter set her off in June. That, I didn’t handle so well for reasons I have already enumerated. So maybe it was just a case of a shark going after a wounded fish. Like the woman in SWOE who said, “Who doesn’t want a target they can sink?” Maybe DiL just zeroed in on me when she saw my weakened state. How sick is that?  Who doesn’t want a target they can sink?  NORMAL people, that’s who!  Only real sicko’s get off on going around targeting people and sinking them.  DiL got some kind of payoff from it, I have no doubt. But I do doubt it had anything to do with me enabling her. Not reading her mind? Definitely. Not having perfectly validating body language? Absolutely. Saying something instead of just watching her browbeat her  toddler? You bet. Enabling? No. Did I mention my husband and I have been together 50 years and he’s been sober 40 of those - the first ten and the last 30? I don’t do enabling.

Boundaries- I have not and would not ever announce my boundaries to son and DiL. They are for me, not them. I don't tell people what they need to do to respect my boundaries. I write them out as reminders and affirmations for myself. Telling my son or DIL what they need to do is likely to fuel relationship drama?  Really?  Ya think!

It never occurred to me to lock my son out of his childhood home. But maybe we should if he’s going to let himself in late at night to instigate a confrontation at his wife’s behest after we’ve gone to bed. Over the years, I have advised him several times that confronting me in my home in order to support his wife’s efforts to establish dominance and control over me is never, ever going to end well. But he did it again last June anyway. That is the level of deviant behavior he is trying to avoid having aimed at himself. But, yeah, maybe we should change the locks.

I loved every minute of babysitting my granddaughter as long as I could avoid being a target for DiL to sink, which I did the vast majority of the time.

I have been welcoming and supportive of my kids and no I don’t have to tolerate ill treatment from them. Hence the declarations of boundaries here (and only here) to remind myself of that fact.

My son has made his choice, albeit with bad advice and incorrect information. Heartbreaking. But I cannot do anything about it.

I was previously a mandated reporter. I know who to call but I am no longer in a position to observe anything. Maybe that’s by DiL’s design.

I am taking care of me. As I’ve stated more than once, I have had enough - at least for awhile but now that I know this is highly unlikely to ever get better, probably for good.

I am going to do what I need to do to give myself safe space.

Thanks for your input. It’s helped me be confident that I’ve done, and am doing, a lot of things right.

[Notwendy]

The AA comment is interesting.

I have been in 12 step coda and co-dependency groups to work on the behaviors I learned growing up. I have learned a lot over the years and come to understand that while the person who has BPD, or an addiction- has a problem and is the source of issues- their partner also "matches" them in some way- maybe not the same way but somehow- their behaviors play into the dynamics between the two of them.

The AA blue book was written a long time ago and some of the language/examples are not reflective of our times, but the patterns remain. There's a chapter in it for "the wives" ( and they were all women married to alcoholic men- but it could be any gender). The authors found that they could get the men to stop drinking but then they got worse- and so they began to look at why.

The wives were enablers. They thought they were being supportive but it turned out they were keeping their husbands from controlling their drinking by their behaviors. So, in actuality, both people in the pair are causing/enabling issues and both sides need to be addressed.

Using this example- my mother has BPD. I used to see her as the problem and my father as a victim of her behavior. Now I see his part in it- he enabled the behavior. You see your DIL as the problem,  but your son is going along with it. For anything to change on his part- he would need to work on that. We are not able to change another person- they need to do the work to change and be motivated to do that. However, we can change our part in the dynamics.

I can see how this appears to be "backwards". Why should I learn how to deal with my BPD mother if she's the problem? Well first of all, it's because I still choose to have contact with her. We all have choices. For some people- no contact is their choice. Consider though that in some cases there isn't a choice to do that- if a couple divorces- but they have children- they still need to communicate. That's where tools such as SWOE suggests helps to reduce the drama between two people who for some reason still have contact with each other.

The other thing I learned is that- learning relationship tools isn't about my mother, it's about me, and when I learn how to relate to different people better- that's a skill that I gain. My mother has not changed, but I can see the benefits of doing some work on relationship dynamics- I see how it benefitted me. This is also how I see the suggestions in SWOE- they aren't really about the person with BPD. And like all self help books- they may contain useful information but personal work can take therapy.

But back to self care for you. You have had it with the behavior, and a book like SWOE isn't something you wish to use at the moment. That's your choice. Like any advice in a book or even here- if it's not useful or doesn't apply to you- you always have the choice to not pursue that.

The topic of validation is interesting as we can be invalidating and not disordered.  When I began to pay attention to my own speaking style, I could see how perhaps that might come across as invalidating- not just to disordered people but to anyone. One thing I learned is that giving advice- especially when not asked for it- feels invalidating to others. Because my BPD mother is disordered, people often give her advice and now she responds to that in a dramatic way. I recall doing this and she blew up- and to me it could have felt as if she did this out of the blue for no reason. Without this kind of information, I might have reacted by feeling hurt " all I said was to..." and she did this to me. No she didn't do it to me. This is how she reacts to advice.

I want to make this clear- this is not mind reading, or walking on eggshells with her- it's paying attention to how I respond to her. The difference is whether or not I take her advice personally or not, and whether I react to her or not. Her behavior hasn't changed. My reaction to her behavior has. It doesn't bother me as much and many of her behaviors that I used to react to, I don't in the same way. Again though, I choose to have some contact with her. It's still difficult but for me, it's less difficult.

[beatricex]

hi again Catra,
My stepdaughter also insinuates people are child molesters.  Thus far her Dad and I are immune, she mostly just accuses her bio Mom's new husband of being creepy but I'm ready for that accusation too.  She has that history of making up stories for attention, afterall...

What will I do if my SD comes back again like nothing ever happened?   Well, my husband and I have an agreement that we will visit with her and her kids only in public places, like at birthday parties.  Her older sister (has two kids from her first marriage) will likely get re-married soon, so if there's a wedding, we'll all be there.  All the people my step daughter dislikes:  her mom, her creepy stepdad, me (the bad stepmom) and her Dad... Seems to me like it's her problem not mine?  Maybe she just won't show up?  We do have a rule that neither of my husband's adult kids can come to our house if they're being disrespectful, abusive, or mean to me.  So, that currently precludes them from violating my "safe" space.  I can deal with either of them in public, I will just ignore if I don't like something they're doing.  By the way my step daughter's sister took her side in the latest drama.

My mother has not been diagnosed with BPD, when I was 27 she likely talked my then ex-husband into sending me a book about BPD.  I read it and had an "ah ha!" moment.  She fits most of the criteria.  How old was I when I knew for sure something was wrong?  Probably 12.  She confided in me then, I am the oldest girl, that her Dad molested her after raging at us (yet again).  That was kind of her go to excuse after raging "my Dad molested me."  Then I would empathize with her, and end up consoling her.  In many ways having a parent with BPD, the roles are reversed.  I grew up fast.  I did of course have one good parent (my Dad), but he was later a big enabler to my Mom.  Is she trying to improve?  No, she's just gotten sneakier and uses her flying monkeys (my Dad and my siblings) to do the abuse by proxy thing.  How were you affected?  I have cPTSD.  My mom was a rager and was physically, emotionally and verbally abusive.  She slapped us all, I got a black eye once (after which she was super nice to me for weeks), hair pulling, screaming we were brats, locking us out of the house for hours...probably more I've forgotten.  I have been through both Cognitive behavioral therapy for childhood trauma and hypontherapy.  The hypnotherapy ended the recurring nightmares I had for years, that my parents were trying to kill me (always with a gun, in my childhood home).

Other than that, I'm a well adjusted adult professional.  I have 5 siblings, we all have college degrees and good jobs.  .  I am on my second round of No Contact with my Mom by the way.  The first lasted 7 years.  I have been no contact with her and my Dad now for 9 months.

Before my grandmother died (Dad's mom) I tried to have a conversation with her about the three years we didn't see her.  My mom cut her off.  I have a distinct memory of her showing up to our house with Christmas presents, but she couldn't come inside.  She saw me, playing out front.  She hugged me so hard, I will never forget it, she was crying and said "b, you're a good girl."  I said "do you want me to go get my [oldest] brother?" (he was inside - this was her favorite, my oldest brother, who she babysat until he was 5) She said, no, then she gave me the bag of Christmas presents she brought for all us kids, got in her cadillac and drove off.  She forgot everything, couldn't even remember this and changed the subject.  My grandmother probably saved my life, btw.  Keep trying to stay in contact with your grandchild, is my advice.

What are you doing for yourself?  The hot flashes sound brutal.  I started taking hormones and thankfully my night sweats are gone.  I'm really sorry to hear about your long COVID and the loss of your mother.  Do you do things like get massages, spa days, or meditation that sort of thing?  I never really thought pampering myself was necessary before, but I'm finally realizing it's essential.

b

[Catra]

Hi b,

Your plan to only see your stepdaughter in public places is what I thought we would do. Only see them at a park or the beach or the zoo or something. I’m not ready to sit at a table with DiL or even be indoors with her. I don’t know if I’ll ever want to take the chance on being trapped in a booth at a restaurant while she hulks over me screaming and shaking her finger in my face while her child cries on her hip thinking it’s her fault.

My son is our only child and my sister and her family live 1500 miles away. So we have no family here besides son and DiL. There won’t be any family events to go to.  My sister and her kids and granddaughter came out in October and everyone went to Disneyland. I had told my sister that I didn’t know if I was up to managing Disneyland. We knew we’d end up paying for all our kids’ meals, tickets, and whatever else they wanted. We weren’t going to do that while being shunned. They all stayed at a house they rented on the beach. Although everyone visited with us and we went to the beach house a couple of times when son and DiL weren’t there, they all got together  without us several times. And we weren’t ever told what day they would all be going to Disneyland so we were excluded - from my own family. That must have really given DiL that “who-doesn’t-want-a-target-to-sink” rush she craves.

You must have felt ganged up on when your stepdaughter’s sister took sides. It’s crazy-making. You know the other person has a really serious mental illness and you’re just trying to avoid being their target. Others don’t get it that the sickie has zeroed in on you, defamed you to everyone, drawn them in to their drama, and then verbally or physically assaulted you because they get off on sinking a target.

Wow, you’ve been through a lot. I really can’t imagine. So great you got that book. I imagine it was a big breakthrough to finally know for sure you hadn’t been responsible or in any way caused your mom’s rages and abuse. But the 15 years in between when you knew there was something wrong with her and you finally discovered what it was must have been really unbearable. How hard for a little girl to have to console her broken mother. My heart goes out to you. I’m so sorry you went through that and are now dealing with another BPD in your life. But you sound like you are coping well now. Still learning and staying strong. That’s inspiring.

The abuse by proxy thing is so outrageous. Normal minds could never conceive of these schemes to get some kind of pay off for delivering a beat-down by sending someone else to do it. It’s just mind boggling how twisted it all is!

I’m happy for you that you’ve finally realized relief from the nightmares. I’ve had years of CBT also, but not hypnotherapy. Initially a couple of therapists I saw went down the wrong path with me trying to convince me I was ACA. But neither of my parents drank. Then they got labeled as dry drunks. It just wasn’t true. It took me a long time to discover on my own that very young children who experience prolonged medical trauma (especially in the 50’s when they didn’t administer analgesics to young children or do anything else to minimize their trauma) exhibit a lot of the same difficulties that abused children do. Abandonment issues, acting out, or conversely trying to be perfect.

I was the achiever type that wanted perfect scores and lots of awards to prove I was worthy. It never got me much affirmation from my parents, so I determined early on to just do it for myself and enjoy how much my teachers and fellow students appreciated my accomplishments. Then when I was grown my mother told me my parents had decided together to minimize my achievements so that my two siblings would not feel bad about how poorly they did in school.

My mother had hated school and really couldn’t relate to why I loved it. I think it’s likely that she had one or more learning disabilities. But maybe it was just because her family were migrant workers. She attended 13 schools in her 12 years of schooling. She and one sister, the two youngest, were the only ones of 10 kids to ever graduate high school. My father barely completed the eighth grade. His family were sharecroppers. Both mom and dad remembered going hungry.

I think both my siblings have learning disabilities and my brother is also gifted so I was close to him, but otherwise I felt like an alien from another planet among my family members. But that combination of gifted/learning disabled really did a number on my brother as it did on my son.

The gifted/learning disabled thing was another enigma I had to figure out on my own. Unfortunately, I couldn’t learn enough fast enough to insist on my son being provided what he needed in school even though I worked for the school district. So his school experience really damaged him - as it had my brother and probably my mother.

I was the first in my family to attend college. My dad had a heart attack during my senior year of high school so even though I had graduated a semester early in the top 3% of my class and was a candidate for Valedictorian, my parents told me no daughter of theirs was going off to a college with coed dorms where they were rioting all the time. So I married instead and we moved 1500 miles away. 
 
More than 25 years later I completed my AA at community college when my son was in high school. I worked nearly full time, helped with my husband’s business, helped my son navigate school, took classes at night, helped my mom after my dad died, and went to counseling as much as I could to prepare for being hospitalized again for two more hip surgeries.

I was enrolled in a bachelor’s program when my husband was nearly killed in a fall at work. Our son helped me a lot during that time but he also went a little off the rails because he had too much responsibility too soon. Sort of like I did when my dad had the heart attack.

Within a year after we were on the other side of all that, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. My last counselor had moved away so I had been without one for awhile. I endured seriously medieval type torture that served as diagnostics and treatment without any counseling. I went to support groups and finally found a counselor again. She’s who finally diagnosed PTSD three years in after cancer was suspected in my other breast and anti-estrogen drugs had displaced all my pelvic organs. More surgeries, more medieval torture, more hospitalizations.

Then sudden menopause aka chemical castration. OMG! I once had hot flashes every 20 minutes for over 24 hours. And I had 30 more in the next 24 hours. My cancer was estrogen positive so I could not have estrogen from any source and whatever my body made had to be blocked. I was struggling. My son told me he wanted his mommy back. I had to tell him his mommy was gone forever, he had a mother now, she was pretty beat up, and doing the best she could.

I worked through all of this. I had to to keep my health insurance. Finally because we were  :hug:getting more and more violent, oppositional, disordered and predatory students, I just couldn’t do it any more and retired in my late 50’s.
 
I dedicated myself to my safe space. My garden, my little fish pond, my beading and crochet, my doggies. And along comes BPD to demolish it all. A beautiful, serene, happy, healing, target to sink.   

The story about your grandmother made me cry. For your sake and for hers. The fact that she had to push those memories so far away is heartbreaking.  I will remember that she saved you and your advice to try to stay in my granddaughter’s life. I worry that if we reconnect we will be split again and again and again. That will be terrible for her. How did it affect you to have your grandmother shunned?  Did it happen more than once? 

I only have about 10 more years to be able to be of any help to my granddaughter. If I make it until she’s 14 without needing someone to take care of me, I’ll be damned lucky. If half of that 10 years is like the last 10 years dealing with her mother, I just don’t know. I just don’t know. Maybe that precious girl needs to be free to find someone else who will be able to be there for her longer.

What am I doing for myself? Well, not massages. Too much like a hospital bed and putting a warm blanket on someone who has severe hot flashes is just torture. I started walking a two-mile walk along the river that I really enjoy. I’m practicing mindfulness as I walk. My main long-haul COVID symptom is breathlessness so I’m concentrating on my breath, inhaling deeply and exhaling fully. I concentrate on seeing all the sights, hearing all the sounds and smelling all the smells. I crochet every day, again making it a mindfulness exercise - counting, breathing, noticing thoughts and letting them go. I’m writing, trying to get my feelings down and examine them before I say them to the wrong person.

And I’m reading, trying to learn about BPD. But I can only take so much of the justification, validation, accommodation, read-their-f$&%#*-minds BS recommended that we should all do to cope with the Kamikazes in our midst before I have to put it down. Yes, I know that seems deeply judgemental according to current popular theories, but my home and life are freaking Pearl Harbor at the moment, bombed to s&!+ and smoking so someone could get off on sinking a target!  To me, it’s like saying, “Oh, the poor little 9-11 bombers are emotionally unstable because someone wasn’t nice to them. They can’t help it that they want to target buildings and kill people. So we just need to learn how to coddle them and not have any expectations of them to stop terrorizing the world. We just need to accommodate them, excuse them, and validate the twisted thought processes that make them think it’s OK to target other people in order to force them to do their bidding. The poor little terrorists, they can’t help it!

Sigh! I guess you can tell I’m not quite on board with the coddle-a-terrorist-today paradigm of how to deal with deranged people.  Not sure I ever will be. I’m trying not to imagine myself sitting cross-legged in front of Usama Bin Laden being deferential to the max, while at the same time exhibiting just the right level of confidence and strength, making sure I maintain perfect body language. Making sure I bow and scrape and nod just right having learned every nuance of his language, culture and twisted mind to avoid arousing his ire in any possible way. Never coughing, blinking, standing, sitting, or doing/not doing any other thing he could possibly take exception to. And of course, I’ve had to transform myself into a man. Then he looks at me with those dead eyes. And that’s the last thing I ————— oops, guess I didn’t validate him like he wanted.

[Catra]

Hi Notwendy

I too, have spent a lot of time in AA meetings, AlAnon, and CoDA groups. I learned a lot so I could be supportive in the right ways. My husband never got worse. He’s been sober for 30 years. He made a decision to stop behaving the way he had been behaving because that was  what he wanted to do. He’s been very clear over the years that he did not start drinking because of me and he did not stop drinking because of me.

His decision may have had something to do with me telling him to get sober or get a lawyer but he says it had more to do with waking up in jail and being told he wouldn’t be released because he wasn’t hung over, he was still drunk.  He spent the next hours wondering what being locked up for DUI, his business failing, his marriage failing, his health deteriorating, not being a very good father, and feeling like absolute crap all had in common. When he figured it out, he checked himself in to rehab and never took another drink.

You probably aren’t going to believe this, but our case was and is pretty exceptional. We didn’t lose our business or our home or our marriage or lose our kid to drugs and alcohol. We didn’t file for bankruptcy or start gambling or have affairs. The odds of a family coming through ten years of alcoholism in that good a shape are infinitesimal. But we did it so we were both doing a lot more right than wrong.

Like I said, I don’t do enabling. I listened to a lot of people talk about what they did to enable and what others did to enable them. I read a lot of books about it, including the Blue Book. It just didn’t apply. I didn’t do any of it with the possible exception of not thinking it was a big deal for my husband to be emotionally unavailable since I had grown up with an uninvolved father.

But that is different than going about your whole day thinking of ways to arrange everything in your home and life so your partner will not drink. Then once they stop drinking, you stop all the safeguards and they go right back to drinking. On the advice of his sponsors, my husband put safeguards in place, not me. I could be wrong, but I don’t really think letting your guard down once someone has stopped drinking is considered enabling - not in the way most people think of it, anyway.

It did take me a bit to realize why my husband was becoming more and more unavailable. It wasn’t denial. It was ignorance. I had never been around drinkers. I really thought my husband was exhausted and not passed out from polishing off a six-pack on the way home that his boss supplied for his crew as a way to say, “That a boy!”  Now that’s enabling. The SOB would plop a six-pack on every man’s truck after work almost every day and then stand around drinking with them. Then the boss would walk over to his house and his men would all get in their trucks and drive home. Yeah, that’s enabling.

We had been married about 10 years when my husbands drinking became alcohol abuse and dependency. I was a new mother, we were both sleep deprived, and I just didn’t get it for a couple of years.

I did have some difficult feelings of abandonment. But I had been abandoned in quite a few ways from a very young age. I was not clingy, didn’t tantrum, didn’t cry. Because, it didn’t work. See my earlier post for how I learned not to cry and to be sufficient unto myself. I don’t recommend those methods of getting a child to soothe themselves and learn how to control their emotions. But I do recommend gentler methods of curtailing rage fits, tantrums, clinging, and whining. You basically just have to make sure none of those behaviors ever pay off for the child. Voila! The kid learns how to self-soothe and manage their emotions in socially acceptable ways. We thus prepare a child to be social, to be able to fit in and feel accepted in a group. It’s called socialization. We stopped teaching parents how to do it when several generations stopped living together in the same house or in very close proximity to one another. Now parents enable their children to remain very poorly socialized. It changes their brains. It changes who they are. Not being taught how to control themselves condemns them to a terrible way of being in the world.

I’m sorry your father enabled your mother’s behavior. I’m sorry my son is enabling his wife. I wonder what DiL will have to finally do to him or to their child before he wakes up and gets help for himself. He acknowledged to my husband that he, too, has noticed his wife being overly critical of their daughter in front of other people. Yet, he just bailed when he saw it happening in the restaurant that night. DiL made their child cry by essentially bullying her in front of the rest of us and my son’s response was to get up and leave without his daughter thereby unleashing the Kraken on the rest of us. Yes, that’s enabling. The fact that I had tried very discreetly to interrupt DiL’s bullying is not.

I believe I’ve acknowledged a number of times in my previous posts that I know the only person we can control is ourselves. No, we are not able to change another person - they have to do the work themselves. Maybe not, but I’m pretty sure I’ve made it clear I get that. So here’s an example that I get it. Last year when I was helping DiL get our Christmas meal on the table she started in for the umteenth time to trash my son to me. I said a few things along the lines of she seemed very stressed because he was not meeting her expectations. She said some more derogatory stuff about him so I finally said that I had first sought counseling for myself because I knew I couldn’t change my husband. I could only make changes myself that might make things easier on me.  I remember very well what I said to her next, “You deserve to have some answers about what is going on in your marriage because you can’t change him. The only person you control is you.” She rounded on me demanding, “You mean therapy?” like I had just recommended cyanide.  I thought, oh boy, here we go. “Yes,” I said (looking down, peeling potatoes very calmly) “you deserve to have some answers and to have less stress. A counselor can advise you about what you can do to get those things.” She calmed right down, we finished preparing our holiday meal and ate it. We had a good Christmas and the next thing I knew she was seeing a therapist. Not one that’s good for my son. He needs his own. It’s not safe for him to share anything about what’s going on with DiL in the room. But at least she is talking to someone.

I expected things to get worse before they got better after she started therapy but not this much worse! Not to go from a really good and very productive exchange and happy Christmas to shunned in six months.

So here are the circumstances I’m dealing with. We only have about ten more years before we will need someone to help with our care. Given that after 12 years we are treated worse than we ever have been, given that things are going in the wrong direction, given that after more than a decade of dealing with this aberrant behavior, does it make sense to continue to waste any more if our lives subjecting ourselves to it?  We don’t really have any more time to wait while they figure out how to be compassionate people who consider what others have been through, much less what they may need. It will be harmful to our granddaughter too if we continue to be jerked around - welcomed, shunned, welcomed, shunned. I guarantee she does not understand why her Grammy and Grampy used to come to see her 2-3 times a week and now they haven’t come to play in 6 months.

I don’t have faith that even if we could follow everything in SWOE perfectly it would make much difference. The reason is that I have done a lot of it, correctly and consistently already. Like I said, my communication skills have worked just fine over a period of almost 70 years with thousands and thousands of people. I have changed lives and set parents and children on much better paths than the ones they were on before I worked with them.

Some of the advice in SWOE is good. It will work wonderfully with normal people and even not-so-normal people. I don’t have any faith that it will work with DiL because in 12 years, most of it has not. (I admit, I have not done the mind reading thing and here’s why: if you start trying to guess what a BPD is getting at, and you get it wrong, it’s more invalidating, more upsetting to them, and will cause more rage from feeling misunderstood than anything else you could possibly do.) So I think some of the advice in my, at least somewhat, qualified opinion is harmful. Several books have said even trained therapists can’t really do this stuff very well and that it really doesn’t have a high rate of success with BPD. And if you do it wrong, like my son is, it’s just enabling. Even SWOE admits that most people can’t really do this stuff when under attack. And everyone is ALWAYS under attack with BPD.

I’m glad learning communication and relationship tools is rewarding for you. It was for me too. Human development was my main focus from the time I was very young. I wanted to know what helped children turn out well. My goal was to eventually teach parenting skills but cancer put a stop to that. 

I realize my posts here contain thoughts and opinions that would be highly invalidating if I expressed them to DiL. Please give me the credit to have sense enough not to do that. That’s why I’m expressing them here.

It’s a credit to you that your mother’s behaviors don’t bother you as much as they used to. But don’t be surprised if they bother you very much when you see them affecting your children and grandchildren. 

Nobody gives DiL advice. She endured four days of labor that ended in nerve damage and a C-section because she wouldn’t take her doctors’ advice. Her daughter was in danger of being hospitalized for failure to thrive shortly after birth because DiL wouldn’t take anyone’s advice on feeding her. No one gives her advice because you can’t really have a conversation with her. You can’t get a word in edgewise most of the time. She goes on and on and on about her concerns or what you should do about your concerns that aren’t any if her concern. She talks endlessly about what she thinks and what her plans are never even slowing down or showing the slightest interest in her listener. And she does expect you to read her mind. She expects you to know when she wants something from you and what it is without ever making an actual request. There’s a speaking style for you.

Right now, today, this is how I feel.

[Notwendy]

BPD is a spectrum disorder and if you don't feel the SWOE applies to your situation, then it's your choice to dismiss it. This also applies to any advice or information here. We are all lay people dealing with BPD in some way- but we all have our own individual experiences and so each person has to assess what is helpful and what isn't to them. We are all limited to what we've learned and also have limited  backstory for any poster.  

[Notwendy]

I want to add that you have been through a lot and have tried many things and have had enough of the BPD behavior. I understand it is different when it's impacting your child and grandchild. I realize that I can control my BPD mother's interactions with my children and that you can't do that when your son has chosen to be with your DIL.

While I attempted to explain why the tools in SWOE may be effective for some people, I understand that you don't think it applies well to your situation. From your last posts, I see that you have had  considerable experience in human behavior and with AA and that sharing my own experiences are not likely to be helpful to you. However, I hope that by posting on this board you do find support and help from posters who are struggling with a more similar relationship involving a child's spouse with BPD.

[Catra]

Hi Notwendy

Thank you for that permission to dismiss SWOE. As I have indicated, I am not dismissing all of it. But I am calling out the parts that my experience teaches me are invalid for my situation and could be harmful.

What I write here is for me. Others will need to decide if any of my analysis applies for them, if any of the parts I’m dismissing may be invalid for them as well and could even be harmful in their situation.

I’m giving you permission to dismiss my posts. I understand you may not find them helpful in your situation. Take what you need and leave the rest.

[Catra]

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

“Validating in Terms of Personal History or Biology
Making reference to their limitations shows understanding and empathy.”

This will get you kicked in the teeth - possibly literally. My experience has taught me to NEVER reference their limitations to someone with BPD.

“Normalizing 
It helps to communicate that others would have the same response, where we can authentically say this.”

That is the first sentence in the paragraph and to me it is patently ridiculous in reference to BPD. My experience has taught me that you can almost never authentically say to BPD that others would have the same response. Their responses are consistently abnormal. That’s one of the defining hallmarks of the disorder - abnormal responses to situations and circumstances that others handle just fine.

“Don't normalize behavior that is not normal.”

That is the last sentence in the paragraph and it is valid. Did someone with dissociative identity disorder write this?

“Radical Genuineness 
And we don't want to treat them as fragile or any differently than you would treat anyone else in a similar situation.”

Hello? Has the author ever actually met anyone with BPD?  If it was safe to treat them the same as we would treat anyone else in a similar situation why the hell do we need volumes and volumes of material about everything we need to learn and change and do or not do when dealing with BPD? Why the hell do we need to read another whole library of contradictory crap when what we already know works just fine with everyone else?  If it was safe to treat BPD the same as we would treat anyone else in a similar situation, why the hell are we on this website looking for ways to cope with it?

My experience has taught me that if you treat someone with BPD the same as you would treat anyone else in a similar situation it’s the same as skipping into a minefield with absolutely no protective gear and no heed of the extreme peril you are in. You are dealing with someone who thinks, “Who doesn’t want a target to sink?” My experience has taught me if you don’t learn and employ all the BPD bomb diffusing skills in the known universe, in short order you will be blown to smithereens. My reading and research about BPD has taught me that even if you do learn and employ all the BPD bomb diffusing skills in the known universe, in short order you will still almost certainly be blown to smithereens. You may be able to recover somewhat, but never fully. Or you may just bleed out. If you act like you are not affected or if you are already damaged to the point of not being capable of the reaction they seek, the BPD will escalate until you die screaming. 

My experience has taught me that extracting a pound of flesh from you is what a BPD is all about. It’s how they balance their universe. It’s how they make themselves feel dominant and in control. It’s how they get off. It’s as powerful to them as sexual release. It’s their drug and they are addicted to it. They revel and glory in it when they have demolished their target. They enjoy it when their behavior causes others emotional pain. They even need to do it like a junkie needs a fix. And they DO want to be this way. If they didn’t, they would develop skills to diffuse their own bomb and stop hunting targets to sink.

Right now, today, this is how I feel. Nobody else is obligated to feel the same way.

[Couscous]

I agree that while the advice in SWOE may work for some BPDs, it wouldn’t work for my uBPD brother, who is highly narcissistic and, according to my T, also has many signs of paranoid personality disorder.

The first time I stood my ground and did not become defensive and refused to validate his warped perceptions, or in other words, the first time I resisted his projective identification, it was game over. Our relationship basically ended on the spot, and I got to experience the fury of his narcissistic rage for the first time. Fortunately for me it all happened via text and email. I can only imagine how terrifying it would have been to have experienced it in his presence.

[Couscous]

I agree that while the advice in SWOE may work for pure BPDs, it wouldn’t work for my uBPD/NPD brother, and according to my T, also has many signs of paranoid personality disorder.

The first time I stood my ground and did not become defensive and refused to validate his warped perceptions, or in other words, the first time I resisted his projective identification, it was game over. Our relationship basically ended on the spot, and I got to experience the fury of his narcissistic rage for the first time. Fortunately for me it all happened via text and email. I can only imagine how terrifying it would have been to have experienced it in his presence.

[pennymoo]

I agree, so many bits of advice "work for some, not ALL" situations/people.
Always, despite the BPD/NPD/CPTSD or whatever, there is individual personality, families & family dynamics as well as cultural & environmental factors that come into play.
I think the thing is to avail yourself of information/ strategies and then "cherry pick" what works in your situation.
Catra, my heart goes out to you & your husband. All we can do is support you...support is beneficial and healing and affirming in any situation. No support cant CHANGE, eliminate or even ameliorate the problem. It can however, tell you and hopefully help you to realise your own sense of worth, of power in your situation and enable healing. xx

[Deedeexo]

Sorry you are going through this Catra.

I have a bpd + bipolar sister so I understand your frustration, I have also reached a point where I am tired of all the bpd advise, tricks and ways I have to specially deal with her, that it’s taken over my life. I am contemplating no contact but it comes with a lot of issues as my mother begs me to keep limited contact with her and she constantly threatens suicide if things don’t go her way which petrifies my elderly mother. So it’s a circle I’m currently in and trying to jump off it so I can lead a Normal life.

I hope you find your way and the right balance to heal. And sadly it does not end that is something that I am trying to come to terms with that her illness will not disappear and myself have changed and also developed coping mechanisms in defense of her behavior towards me.

I pray that you can heal and come to a resolution that will free you in this sad situation x