Of course I got sucked back in - trauma bonding

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Well, the "lets be friends" experiment has failed - which I knew it would but my stubborn @ss had to try anyway.

Its funny, I went into this with my eyes wide open. I knew exactly what I was getting into. It actually started out fine. We had friendly conversations every now and then, it was nice. Then it started becoming more frequent. And now I'm back to exactly where I was right before he discarded me in July - in a FWB loop, feeling used and not getting anything from him. I left his place the other night feeling terrible about myself and ended up having a trauma response (shaking, adrenaline surges, no sleep, crying). It opened my eyes and I have been grey rocking him ever since.

I was reading up on trauma bonds and realized this is exactly what is going on with me. I feel unable to end things, I feel distressed at the thought of losing him (why?), I make excuses for him. I know that part of it is because I feel like I will never find anyone so I take what I can get and that is an issue I am working on in therapy. At the same time, that trauma bond keeps me tethered to him like an addiction.

I have been keeping him a secret from my loved ones this time around - I know absolutely no one would approve but I didn't want to let him go. I haven't even told my therapist, but I know I have to. Spending time with him lately, I realized I don't even think I particularly like him anymore. Its time for me to purge him from my life already. So, why does it feel so awful? He wouldn't think twice about discarding me.

So, this is the first step for me - admitting to the forum that I was wrong, that I was deluding myself into thinking we could be friends and he wouldn't suck me back in. I know a lot of people hope to eventually get to a point of being friends with their ex and I do not recommend it at all.

[ILMBPDC]

Well, the "lets be friends" experiment has failed - which I knew it would but my stubborn @ss had to try anyway.

Its funny, I went into this with my eyes wide open. I knew exactly what I was getting into. It actually started out fine. We had friendly conversations every now and then, it was nice. Then it started becoming more frequent. And now I'm back to exactly where I was right before he discarded me in July - in a FWB loop, feeling used and not getting anything from him. I left his place the other night feeling terrible about myself and ended up having a trauma response (shaking, adrenaline surges, no sleep, crying). It opened my eyes and I have been grey rocking him ever since.

I was reading up on trauma bonds and realized this is exactly what is going on with me. I feel unable to end things, I feel distressed at the thought of losing him (why?), I make excuses for him. I know that part of it is because I feel like I will never find anyone so I take what I can get and that is an issue I am working on in therapy. At the same time, that trauma bond keeps me tethered to him like an addiction.

I have been keeping him a secret from my loved ones this time around - I know absolutely no one would approve but I didn't want to let him go. I haven't even told my therapist, but I know I have to. Spending time with him lately, I realized I don't even think I particularly like him anymore. Its time for me to purge him from my life already. So, why does it feel so awful? He wouldn't think twice about discarding me.

So, this is the first step for me - admitting to the forum that I was wrong, that I was deluding myself into thinking we could be friends and he wouldn't suck me back in. I know a lot of people hope to eventually get to a point of being friends with their ex and I do not recommend it at all.

[Firsttimefather]

Hello ILMBPDC. I’m so sorry you are suffering. Big hugs for you. I’m going on 3 days since last contact but one run in encounter. Last contact was a ‘can you stop by..?’ I think this was a recycle attempt by my partner. It is very difficult to not give in. I thought ‘well  because love’ but then having read up on trauma bonds I see it’s not just ‘love’, it’s learned subservience. I wouldn’t be so hard on yourself. You are doing what anyone would do imo if you love someone. You are braver than me for turning back. I haven’t gone back. The one difference in this cycle for me is (and she told me) a. I disengaged as best I could, I never went back, but I wanted to, I still do every now and again but when I get that thought I remind myself ‘trauma bonds’. I feel your report of events is so helpful and I thank you for posting. Also mentioning you hid it from fam/friends. That’s the ‘isolation’ happening. Amazing how we just fall into this stuff? My mother said my partners promise to move to another state would have been the ‘final isolation’ . Sounds like you gained a lot of perspective having gone back. My T said, when I first started this latest journey post meltdown , : just do whatever you can to remove yourself from the cycle. I know it’s easier said than done but crucial. I recommend No Contact and research healing trauma bonds as you begin to once again disengage. I really want you to know your story is very important to me: a little glimpse into ‘what if’ and the way you describe feeling afterwards. We must remind ourselves when ‘this is not Love, love should not feel or be like this” Again, stand up tall and be strong… it’s often said ‘relapse is along the road to recovery’ Take the advice you find, renegade with family and friends. Maybe admitting your mistake and sharing the info you are learning with family will make you more aware how much you need them right now. I wrote a song and every line is someone who told me to ‘stay away from her’. I sing it to myself constantly. I stopped talking to my mom via indirect isolation many months ago. I gave in and called when this went down. My mom was pretty much waiting for me and was so ready to be not only the person she is but the person I needed. Build and maintain strong supports. My friend who is putting me up temporarily has a great chat with me pretty much every night before bed. He was married to a Bpd wife for 25 years. She actually drove a pick axe through his mailbox …needless to say lots of inspiration to stay away after hearing his stories. In all truth I hate having to leave, in many way don’t want to but every day this changes as I feel more and more of not only myself returning but a sad Leo experience life with no toxic relationships around me. More people are seeming to pop out of the woodwork at random and in conversing I learn they had a daughter or ex with Bpd and what’s their advice? ‘I know it’s hard and maybe not what you want to hear but if you can get out than do, you are not a doctor, there is nothing to cure, you can’t save them and since you can leave without children, marriage, etc than lucky you…. It doesn’t get easier if we stay in the relationships, what for 2 weeks at a time? It dawned on me last night that I barely was with my ex this last cycle for a month. She came home from visit with family(and I’m pretty sure she cheated on me on that trip but no proof n don’t care) we had this amazing week where we went shopping and around town…within 3 weeks BOOM, honestly it felt like 6 months passed in that time but in truth it wasn’t it was one week of very happy and the rest a rollercoaster, a bad dream and eventually a nightmare. One other thing I want to share. Before I left I was struggling with depression, insomnia, health:felt sick a lot, ocular migraines, wanted to drink alcohol more often…all that changed the DAY I left. Sure depression and sadness were with me but it made sense this time. Before the ‘split’ I just knew I was depressed but couldn’t figure out why. Now I see it was collateral damage my subconscious was dredging up as I naively and blindly accepted the dysfunction of my relationship. It’s hard to fix what you don’t understand, but this depression felt different than the sadness of breaking up….what I’m trying to say it’s a ‘rational’ sadness we feel when we see it’s root cause and the ailment fits the bill. That helps me have confidence that it is fixable. The ambiguous symptoms pre split seemed like I couldn’t fix. Anyway , be strong, you are loved and it seems like you really see more of it now and what you must do in order to move forward into healthier environments and relationships. Stay strong!

[ILMBPDC]

Hello ILMBPDC. I’m so sorry you are suffering. Big hugs for you. I’m going on 3 days since last contact but one run in encounter. Last contact was a ‘can you stop by..?’ I think this was a recycle attempt by my partner. It is very difficult to not give in. I thought ‘well  because love’ but then having read up on trauma bonds I see it’s not just ‘love’, it’s learned subservience. I wouldn’t be so hard on yourself. You are doing what anyone would do imo if you love someone. You are braver than me for turning back. I haven’t gone back.

You know what's really hard?  I absolutely  knew the mechanisms he uses to get me back in and I still let it happen. "Learned subservience" is an interesting way to phrase it... and 100% right. The thing its, its not even Mr BPD, its my whole life. I can look back on past relationships and see the same pattern in me. Its a childhood neglect thing for me, I have spent my whole life trying to be loved and learned to be subservient early. I'm dealing with a lifetime of  and Mr BPD is just really good at tapping into that.

I feel your report of events is so helpful and I thank you for posting.

Part of why I posted was personal accountability but part was also exactly for this reason - I think a lot of people think the way I do, that a friendship is possible. I had nearly 4 months of NC, I felt good, I felt healed - but he was able to pull me back in easily.

Also mentioning you hid it from fam/friends. That’s the ‘isolation’ happening. Amazing how we just fall into this stuff?

I self isolate a lot. In this case, I was embarrassed, I knew what was happening and didn't want to admit it.I woke up this morning realizing that couldn't continue doing that.

just do whatever you can to remove yourself from the cycle. I know it’s easier said than done but crucial. I recommend No Contact and research healing trauma bonds as you begin to once again disengage.

Yes. I know. I need to extricate myself from this. I need to work through my panic at losing him again (trauma bond). I need to work through my fear of being alone forever. (For context, I was single for a decade before him [after an even worse relationship] so its not like I've never been alone, but I'm 47 and starting to feel like I will never find anyone and I think that is a catalyst in this whole thing)

Even funnier (in a sad way) is that I have repeatedly given advice on this forum to go NC, not trying to be friends, etc. And I ultimately ended up not taking my own advice.

We must remind ourselves when ‘this is not Love, love should not feel or be like this”

No. Love should not feel like this. Love should not be one sided. Love should not make me feel terrible.

Before the ‘split’ I just knew I was depressed but couldn’t figure out why. Now I see it was collateral damage my subconscious was dredging up as I naively and blindly accepted the dysfunction of my relationship. It’s hard to fix what you don’t understand, but this depression felt different than the sadness of breaking up….what I’m trying to say it’s a ‘rational’ sadness we feel when we see it’s root cause and the ailment fits the bill.

Yes I am learning to listen to my subconscious, and its telling me this isn't right.

Anyway , be strong, you are loved and it seems like you really see more of it now and what you must do in order to move forward into healthier environments and relationships. Stay strong!

Thank you

[Firsttimefather]

I just wanted you to know. My ex just called me. I did not answer and of the many things that spring to mind, your story did. I didn't answer and it’s nice to have stories like yours on my mind to help me rationalize my choices. Thank you again.

[ILMBPDC]

I just wanted you to know. My ex just called me. I did not answer and of the many things that spring to mind, your story did. I didn't answer and it’s nice to have stories like yours on my mind to help me rationalize my choices. Thank you again.

I'm so glad!
This forum helped me a lot as well, just knowing that others understand what I am going through. And getting this off my chest has been a huge help for me plus knowing it has helped someone else is even better.

[grumpydonut]

Hey L,

I hate to tell you "I told you so", but I did.

The point? Exactly what you said - you can't trust yourself around this person, and trying to be friends isn't possible while there is still an emotional connection from your side.

Cutting him off is the only solution - but you know this, you always have.

[Calli]

Hi ILMBPDC,

I totally get this, so much.  Please don’t beat yourself up about it.   It is completely human!  Who among us could ever judge you or ourselves for it?  None of us can judge, and any one of us would do the exact same thing in your shoes!  I have!  And you shouldn’t be hard on yourself. 

I’ve been there - in my case, I was falling back into the pattern, the dream and belief that he realized he cared for me in the way I wanted him to.  That things would go back to how they were in the beginning. That he truly loved me the way I loved him.  That dream that it could work out between us.  But it wasn’t reality - those things would only happen if he began thinking neurotypically, if he didn’t have a personality disorder, if his reactions and actions were normal and loving.   In my case, the friends thing isn’t working out so far either.   I want it to, still.   In spite of things, I want to be able to lean on eachother, help eachother - the way we have in the past.  But…again…I must be dreaming!   

ILMBPDC, you are a human being, with vulnerabilities, and a kind caring heart.  Do not beat yourself up over any of this - it’s another step in the whole process.  And the fact that this time you realized what was happening so quickly is a huge leap in progress.   Above all be kind to yourself, and do the things that will take care of you. 

Thank you for talking about this here.  It helps me too, not to feel alone in all of this.

[grumpydonut]

I feel like I will never find anyone

&

I'm back to exactly where I was right before he discarded me in July - in a FWB loop, feeling used and not getting anything from him

Then

I don't even think I particularly like him anymore

Yet

I feel unable to end things, I feel distressed at the thought of losing him

L, having read your story again, my guess is that the reason you are drawn to him is because you want him to validate your worth. He probably does this frequently enough to give you hope, but infrequently enough to addict you. To me, it seems he has become a surrogate for a deeper issue, and looks to be playing a stand in role for someone important in the developmental stages of your life (ie, mum or dad).

Were you validated when you were younger? Did you feel heard and loved by your parents? (both rhetorical and none of my business). If not, this is likely what you're trying to "undo" through this borderline lad. And it's a great place for your therapist to dig.

[ILMBPDC]

Hey L,

I hate to tell you "I told you so", but I did.

The point? Exactly what you said - you can't trust yourself around this person, and trying to be friends isn't possible while there is still an emotional connection from your side.

Cutting him off is the only solution - but you know this, you always have.

Yes you did. I really thought I could handle it. I was wrong.

L, having read your story again, my guess is that the reason you are drawn to him is because you want him to validate your worth. He probably does this frequently enough to give you hope, but infrequently enough to addict you. To me, it seems he has become a surrogate for a deeper issue, and looks to be playing a stand in role for someone important in the developmental stages of your life (ie, mum or dad).

Were you validated when you were younger? Did you feel heard and loved by your parents? (both rhetorical and none of my business). If not, this is likely what you're trying to "undo" through this borderline lad. And it's a great place for your therapist to dig.

Ding, ding, ding you win a prize. This is exactly the issue and exactly what I have come to figure out over the last year - I have massive childhood neglect issues. I never felt validated or worthy and I still don't, to this day, no matter what I do, no matter how far I go in my career, how much money I make, how attractive I try to make myself, I don't feel like I am ever enough, and I have played out this dynamic over and over again in my relationships. And yes it has come up in therapy. Its the root cause of my depression and CPTSD as well.

[grumpydonut]

You're in a great spot. Most people have no idea what is causing them pain, or to be drawn to destructive people. They, instead, go on repeating their cycles over their entire life. You are now at the root of your pain. You understand what causes it, and why you were drawn to a BPD (and continue to be drawn). Recovery is a long path, but you're on it!

That's massive. You don't need any advice from me on what to do next. You already know  

[ILMBPDC]

I’ve been there - in my case, I was falling back into the pattern, the dream and belief that he realized he cared for me in the way I wanted him to.  That things would go back to how they were in the beginning. That he truly loved me the way I loved him.  That dream that it could work out between us.  But it wasn’t reality - those things would only happen if he began thinking neurotypically, if he didn’t have a personality disorder, if his reactions and actions were normal and loving.   In my case, the friends thing isn’t working out so far either.   I want it to, still.   In spite of things, I want to be able to lean on each other, help each other - the way we have in the past.  But…again…I must be dreaming!

   
He's been doing a lot of work on himself this year as well (so he says, though as far as I know he still hasn't seen a therapist like he said he was going to do in June). I wanted to believe it. I wanted to believe he might have figured some stuff out. I wanted to believe we could be real friends. I don't believe he does it maliciously but I read something last week that stuck in my brain: just because its not intentional doesn't mean its not toxic.  I actually think that triggered something in my brain because that was about when I started realizing I needed to extricate myself from this. Again.

ILMBPDC, you are a human being, with vulnerabilities, and a kind caring heart.  Do not beat yourself up over any of this - it’s another step in the whole process.  And the fact that this time you realized what was happening so quickly is a huge leap in progress.   Above all be kind to yourself, and do the things that will take care of you. 

Thank you for talking about this here.  It helps me too, not to feel alone in all of this.

Thank you Calli. It helps me too, to not feel so alone in this. I was embarrassed and almost didn't post here because I felt like I failed, even after being warned by people on the board that friendships won't work. I thought I was healed enough, detached enough. And for the first few weeks it was fine. Over the last couple weeks, though, things have devolved rapidly and its like I was transported back 5 months. I don't even know what the turning point was. I really thought that I would be able to see it coming and back out before I got sucked in. I was wrong. And that's hard for me to admit.

[ILMBPDC]

You're in a great spot. Most people have no idea what is causing them pain, or to be drawn to destructive people. They, instead, go on repeating their cycles over their entire life. You are now at the root of your pain. You understand what causes it, and why you were drawn to a BPD (and continue to be drawn). Recovery is a long path, but you're on it!

well, I've been repeating the cycles for 47 years and that's far too long already. I can't continue on this way and I know that. Its been extremely hard, acknowledging my traumas but its the first, hard, painful step to recovery.

That's massive. You don't need any advice from me on what to do next. You already know  

I do know.
Thank you

[Firsttimefather]

L, just to vouch for the power of a trauma bond and the willingness to return despite everyone telling you not to and all the knowledge of why, what and how. I received that phone call earlier. I didn’t answer I didn’t respond but as the day progressed thoughts about the whole situation are stirred ip. The ‘messed up’ nature of it all gets frustrating and I start to wonder: what does she want? Does she want to talk it over? Is she feeling remorseful? Just lonely hoping I’ll come running. I would love nothing more than to crawl back into those arms, into my bed, into my home… but I can’t overlook the threats, the police call, the future and what it may hold in store if I continued. I don’t see it possible in my case to go back, to fix it. I do know I won’t respond to more abuse. I fantasize about a big apology, a ‘I wanna work on this, I love you and I really messed up,I didn’t know what I was doing, ‘ something but then I remind myself: I’m a neurotypical normal relationship such things can occur. Funny she doesn’t leave messages when she calls? Anyway I’m not responding, returning but I wanted to share with you a feeling you probably know all too well: that balancing of do I or don’t I try again. It is far from easy to break the trauma bond and the space we are in when vexed with possibilities whether good or bad for us: do not be hard on yourself. Curiously, if it isn’t too painful to talk about. What are some of the things said to you by your SO that often brought you back in the past? Perhaps examining these ‘triggers’ can help prevent a future recycle attempt? I don’t know … solidarity L!

[grumpydonut]

do not be hard on yourself

FWI, I disagree with one of the two interpretations of this phrase. Being easy on ourselves is why we go back time and again to these vampires. We do it because we don't have enough self respect / self love. Due to that, we need to be harder on ourselves.

On the other hand, we don't need to "be hard on ourselves" when it pertains to pouring on more shame by continually ruminating on past mistakes. All of us who dated BPD people have made mistakes. We cannot change that. What we can do is learn from those mistakes. If we continue to repeat the mistakes, we need to be harder on ourselves and show ourselves some self respect.

[ILMBPDC]

L, just to vouch for the power of a trauma bond and the willingness to return despite everyone telling you not to and all the knowledge of why, what and how. I received that phone call earlier. I didn’t answer I didn’t respond but as the day progressed thoughts about the whole situation are stirred ip. The ‘messed up’ nature of it all gets frustrating and I start to wonder: what does she want? Does she want to talk it over? Is she feeling remorseful? Just lonely hoping I’ll come running. I would love nothing more than to crawl back into those arms, into my bed, into my home… but I can’t overlook the threats, the police call, the future and what it may hold in store if I continued. I don’t see it possible in my case to go back, to fix it. I do know I won’t respond to more abuse. I fantasize about a big apology, a ‘I wanna work on this, I love you and I really messed up,I didn’t know what I was doing, ‘ something but then I remind myself: I’m a neurotypical normal relationship such things can occur. Funny she doesn’t leave messages when she calls? Anyway I’m not responding, returning but I wanted to share with you a feeling you probably know all too well: that balancing of do I or don’t I try again. It is far from easy to break the trauma bond and the space we are in when vexed with possibilities whether good or bad for us: do not be hard on yourself.

Thank you for sharing.  I know all too well how your mind can start spiraling when they call/message. For me, he randomly, out of the blue messages me on facebook after 3 1/2 months of complete NC (initiated by him) and I spent several days here on the board overthinking it - what did he want? why now? what did it mean? I was literally driving myself crazy.

Curiously, if it isn’t too painful to talk about. What are some of the things said to you by your SO that often brought you back in the past? Perhaps examining these ‘triggers’ can help prevent a future recycle attempt? I don’t know … solidarity L!

Its little things. He is fascinated by something I was doing at work or school. He starts to talk about what "we" can do with something I've learned. He makes a point to ask me about my day, to say goodnight to me. He called me sweet to my coworker in front of me (his former coworker, we used to work together over a year ago). We have fantastic conversations where he is focused on me and what I have to say, and seems genuinely interested. He asks for my advice. He starts opening up about his life, confiding in me about things, making me feel like we have an intimate bond. He "checks me out", making me feel attractive. Its basically what I would expect from courtship from anyone, tbh. It such a subtle reeling in that its hard to even realize its happening.

Then at some point when I feel like, yeah, we are bonding, he is interested, this is going in a good direction, I realize how one-sided it really is. He wants to use my knowledge to find a way to "get rich" (he's kind of obsessed with getting rich). He wants to use me as a therapist but if I try to confide in him he gets impatient, tells me how I should "fix it" and doesn't seem to want to be there just as support. He doesn't follow through on things he says he wants to do. Sex becomes very one sided with no regard for me. He is selfish. He holds me at arms length, doesn't invite me to hang out with his friends or meet his family (granted we never got "serious" enough to meet the family but still). But at the same time, he is still doing most of the above things as well - as long as I don't get too needy or emotional, he seems really interested in me. We still have great conversations. We get along well. Its like we get to a certain threshold and he can't move past it and then I start feeling used. And yes, I knew when I hopped back into bed with him I was making a mistake. 100% knew it and did it anyway. I have no excuse other than loneliness and deluding myself that I could handle it. Ha.

I guess if I was looking for a trigger to avoid, it would be just being in contact with him. It sucks because I think in another universe we really could be good friends. Or if we were both men, maybe (though he has discarded his supposed best friends before so maybe not). But the romantic dynamic between us seems to have ruined any chance of an actual friendship for good.

[ILMBPDC]

FWI, I disagree with one of the two interpretations of this phrase. Being easy on ourselves is why we go back time and again to these vampires. We do it because we don't have enough self respect / self love. Due to that, we need to be harder on ourselves.

On the other hand, we don't need to "be hard on ourselves" when it pertains to pouring on more shame by continually ruminating on past mistakes. All of us who dated BPD people have made mistakes. We cannot change that. What we can do is learn from those mistakes. If we continue to repeat the mistakes, we need to be harder on ourselves and show ourselves some self respect.

Grumpy, I agree with you - I am not beating myself up over this. I am embarrassed, yes, but I am not ruminating or feeling shame. I am learning. I tried to prove I could maintain a friendship and I was wrong. Learn from it and move on.

I do eventually learn I learned I will not tolerate being cheated on after a relationship where I was cheated on. I learned not to give a man money after dating a psychopath who put me in bankruptcy. And now I'm learning that I can't be friends with an ex with a personality disorder, no matter how much I want to. And to not ignore red flags early on in the relationship, especially the one where he literally told me very early on that it would end badly. I still kick myself over that one...once again my stubborn @ss took it as a challenge.  It apparently just takes me getting my butt handed to me to learn. But I do learn.

[Firsttimefather]

L, after hearing your stories of being reeled in: who wouldn’t succumb to that? Your Bpd ex showered you with normalcy?  That’s a dream come true having dealt with these types of relationships.

——I guess if I was looking for a trigger to avoid, it would be just being in contact with him. ——
  This is the saddest of all realities, just have to cut them off as to save ourselves. How I hate this part of this misadventure,. You just want to love the person and be there hoping the most positive of outcomes finds you but nope: just disappointment and a bunch of collateral damage. I miss my ex very much but what else can I do? Nothing…I was told recently the more traits that are showing the less likely you will have a healthy relationship, mine hots every trait except for suicide though she did mention suicide at times so…. Anyway, thanks for sharing.

[SinisterComplex]

So IL, how is the Master's coming along? Yes, totally skipping over this because all you can do is vent and do the work yourself. I am focusing on you and the other stuff that is going on. If you want feedback I'll provide it so if you have questions then feel free to ask. Beyond that hey just a friendly reminder...Want Better, Expect Better, Do Better! At some point I do think your F  it! Moment will happen and the light will go on. But moving on...the only suggestion I can make...perhaps try to create new behaviors and new habits. Easier said than done of course, but you will get there.

Cheers and best wishes! 

-SC-

[ILMBPDC]

So IL, how is the Master's coming along? Yes, totally skipping over this because all you can do is vent and do the work yourself. I am focusing on you and the other stuff that is going on. If you want feedback I'll provide it so if you have questions then feel free to ask. Beyond that hey just a friendly reminder...Want Better, Expect Better, Do Better! At some point I do think your F   it! Moment will happen and the light will go on. But moving on...the only suggestion I can make...perhaps try to create new behaviors and new habits. Easier said than done of course, but you will get there.

Cheers and best wishes!  

-SC-

Thanks SC, I finished my masters last week. Its nice to be done but at the same time I feel empty. I have no desire to celebrate, I have zero interest in making myself the center of attention. I know that's my depression, but there it is.

[ILMBPDC]

L, after hearing your stories of being reeled in: who wouldn’t succumb to that? Your Bpd ex showered you with normalcy?  That’s a dream come true having dealt with these types of relationships.

Yeah, that's the sh*t of it, huh? So much of him is "normal". So much of him is a pleasure to be around. It pulls me in, makes me want to be closer and then he hold me at arms length and because of my own trauma I let it happen, just accepting the breadcrumbs he gives me. He has a pattern of unstable relationships (duh). He likely keeps coming back to me because I let him. I know its toxic. I know its because my self worth is sh*t and that I'm lonely and that is a perfect combination for someone like him.

——I guess if I was looking for a trigger to avoid, it would be just being in contact with him. ——
  This is the saddest of all realities, just have to cut them off as to save ourselves. How I hate this part of this misadventure,. You just want to love the person and be there hoping the most positive of outcomes finds you but nope: just disappointment and a bunch of collateral damage. I miss my ex very much but what else can I do? Nothing…I was told recently the more traits that are showing the less likely you will have a healthy relationship, mine hots every trait except for suicide though she did mention suicide at times so…. Anyway, thanks for sharing.

Yeah, my ex has the unstable relationships, the impulsivity, the feelings of emptiness and loneliness, some self destructive behavior (drinking, risky sex) and the unstable sense of self.  Plus the ability to devalue and cut people off pretty rapidly.

I think deep down I keep hoping that my love will help him feel secure but in the meantime it makes me feel awful and that's not fair for me. At this point, I know I have to get out for my own mental health. But it feels terrible to think of not having him in my life in some capacity. And that is how I got into this situation. I keep reminding myself I didn't have him in my life for nearly 4 months after he discarded me and I was fine (well, I was fine after working through the breakup). Life moves on.

I am seriously thinking of moving out of state (to be fair I have been thinking this for awhile). It won't be immediately, I have to get my house ready to sell and figure out my daughter's next steps (she's been saving money to move as well). But it may be the best way for me to get a fresh start and not be tempted by him.

[SinisterComplex]

Thanks SC, I finished my masters last week. Its nice to be done but at the same time I feel empty. I have no desire to celebrate, I have zero interest in making myself the center of attention. I know that's my depression, but there it is.

Well guess what honey you are the Star and the center of attention right now. You need the help right now and you need the support. You have to make yourself a priority at some point. So...

But with that said...congratulations on the Master's...welcome to the club. 

You have a lot on your plate, but don't forget YOU matter.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[ILMBPDC]

Well guess what honey you are the Star and the center of attention right now. You need the help right now and you need the support. You have to make yourself a priority at some point. So...

But with that said...congratulations on the Master's...welcome to the club. 

You have a lot on your plate, but don't forget YOU matter.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

Thank you SC. I do appreciate it and I am working on making myself a priority, as hard as that is

[once removed]

at the end of the day, it seems like you want things from this person that they arent capable, or arent interested in providing.

thats a barrier to any friendship, or relationship.

i use this example all of the time:

one of my very best friends from high school used to be one of the most insensitive people id ever met. he really had a knack for saying the wrong thing. for some reason, i kept trying to use him as a shoulder to cry on, and then get mad when he failed to be that.

there were plenty of other things i liked about our friendship. he was/is hilarious. we had a similar music taste. lots in common. he just wasnt a good shoulder to cry on.

eventually, i started to focus more on the aspects of our friendship that i enjoyed, for what they were, and less on the things he didnt want to, or couldnt provide.

as a result, our friendship got even better. interestingly enough, today (years later), hes a fantastic person to go for for emotional support.

if you feel used, is it because hes using you, or because you are offering something and hoping for something in return that you arent getting? you have complete control over both.

it seems to me you get this. theres a lot of baggage in this relationship, and youre tripping up with expecting this person to meet some particular need, feeling unfulfilled as a result, and trying harder to get it, fueling a vicious cycle.

does it stand to reason that it was/is/would be a bad idea to be friends with him?

maybe. he may just be a guy without a lot to offer. sometimes, when we see whats drawing us to someone, really see it, we realize its more about us than them, and they, the draw, become a lot less interesting. if thats the case, eventually, i suspect youll see that and lose interest.

but youve listed a lot of reasons that you want this person in your life and what make him a good guy. whether those reasons are rationalized through rose colored glasses, is impossible for me to say. you know him best. but if those things are true, and hold up, id really encourage you, if youre going to have a relationship with this person, to focus on those things, and not to push for things he cant or wont offer.

[ILMBPDC]

at the end of the day, it seems like you want things from this person that they arent capable, or arent interested in providing.

thats a barrier to any friendship, or relationship.

Well, once removed, as usual, you have given me things to think about. This is a good point - I keep expecting things that he isn't capable of giving.

if you feel used, is it because hes using you, or because you are offering something and hoping for something in return that you arent getting? you have complete control over both.

Honestly, a little of both.
BUT I have spent a great deal of this week trying to be extremely blunt with myself and I accept that part of why I feel used is because I cannot address the issue. This comes back to my childhood trauma. My new therapist has me looking into the Adult Children of Alcoholics groups and I've been reading up on it and it fits me to a tee. One of the things I came across on the ACA "laundry list" is this:
We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment and will do anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to experience painful abandonment feelings, which we received from living with sick people who were never there emotionally for us.
and
We are frightened by angry people and any personal criticism
and
We get guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others.

In my case, I get paralyzed by fear and cannot assert my needs, feelings or desires which allows him to continue to treat me in a way that makes me feel worse and worse. Its a cycle that I am learning to recognize and now I just need to figure out how to address it. I am literally making myself sick trying to figure out how to even have a conversation with him about it.

it seems to me you get this. theres a lot of baggage in this relationship, and youre tripping up with expecting this person to meet some particular need, feeling unfulfilled as a result, and trying harder to get it, fueling a vicious cycle.

I'm starting to wonder if the baggage isn't even in this relationship - I am dealing with a tremendous amount of baggage form my last relationship (with a ASPD con man) that I never dealt with in the decade I was single afterwards.   

does it stand to reason that it was/is/would be a bad idea to be friends with him?

maybe. he may just be a guy without a lot to offer. sometimes, when we see whats drawing us to someone, really see it, we realize its more about us than them, and they, the draw, become a lot less interesting. if thats the case, eventually, i suspect youll see that and lose interest.

but youve listed a lot of reasons that you want this person in your life and what make him a good guy. whether those reasons are rationalized through rose colored glasses, is impossible for me to say. you know him best. but if those things are true, and hold up, id really encourage you, if youre going to have a relationship with this person, to focus on those things, and not to push for things he cant or wont offer.

All good advice. Thank you

[ACycleWiser]

I'm starting to wonder if the baggage isn't even in this relationship - I am dealing with a tremendous amount of baggage form my last relationship (with a ASPD con man) that I never dealt with in the decade I was single afterwards.  
All good advice. Thank you

I can imagine ASPD to be a totally different but equally damaging r/s. In which areas do they overlap you think?

And another question: Which people do we eventually attract to have relationships with? And what part of us actually makes that decision? I fear its never really a conscious choice, it's not even based on ratio or emotion. I think that "attraction center" lies deeper within us in the same space as our forgotten traumas rest. And therefor we will most likely attract people who will bring that forgotten trauma back to memory, until we've healed it.

This is not because we are sadomasochists, or cause we really want to suffer. This is because you need to relive the pain of the wound to heal it and become whole again. This is also the reason we end up cycling back, because we think we can take the pain and don't need healing - yet. But that is where the deep psyche is aiming for, to bring that buried split off stuff in front of you again so you can release the trauma and live a better, fuller life.

Really creepy right, that you unconsciously bring this on your path.

[ILMBPDC]

I can imagine ASPD to be a totally different but equally damaging r/s. In which areas do they overlap you think?

Both did the future faking - for completely different reasons. Mr BPD talks about the future because that is what he wants (though I have learned that it doesn't necessarily mean he wants it with the person he is with). Mr ASPD did it as a manipulation/con man tactic.
The only other overlap is what happened last weekend, the thing that triggered a PTSD reaction in me and caused me to post this thread - we were having a pleasant evening and MR BPD turns to me and says "wanna  ?" No romance, not even a kiss, just a completely disrespectful question you'd ask a whore. Mr ASPD used to do that right before forcing himself on me. I actually hadn't put the two together until the next day when I was shaking and crying and trying to figure out what triggered me (the trigger actually started as I was leaving that night). But its also not the first time Mr BPD has done that - it seems like eventually he just gets tired of putting up a front of being romantic. The problem is that it makes me feel worthless, like I'm not worth an effort. Which is one of my big issues. And my defense mechanisms is to shut down and say nothing about how it makes me feel. Its not a good combination.

And another question: Which people do we eventually attract to have relationships with? And what part of us actually makes that decision? I fear its never really a conscious choice, it's not even based on ratio or emotion. I think that "attraction center" lies deeper within us in the same space as our forgotten traumas rest. And therefor we will most likely attract people who will bring that forgotten trauma back to memory, until we've healed it.

I am apparently subconsciously reliving the emotional unavailability of my alcoholic father and the relationship dynamics between him and my co-dependent (and very likely covert NPD) mother. Its disheartening to realize this and know that I have literally been doing it my entire life. People say that we become "addicted" to the drama and I can tell you that's not it at all (for me) - I hate the drama and pain. I think in my case its more that it is all I know and I don't have a clue how to be with a man who has emotional maturity so I seek out the comfort of the dysfunction. (I read on the board today a quote about how we attract people who have the same level of emotional maturity as we have and I think that is true)

I have had some very hard conversations with myself this week and have looked back at my significant relationships and realized that they all had some sort of dysfunction. The worst was, of course, with Mr ASPD but I fear I have brought some major issues with me into the relationship with Mr BPD from that aftermath. I've always had some issues just from my upbringing but what I am finding in myself now is awful. And I'm truly scared that I am scarred for life.

[ACycleWiser]

The only other overlap is what happened last weekend, the thing that triggered a PTSD reaction in me and caused me to post this thread - we were having a pleasant evening and MR BPD turns to me and says "wanna  ?" No romance, not even a kiss, just a completely disrespectful question you'd ask a whore. Mr ASPD used to do that right before forcing himself on me. I actually hadn't put the two together until the next day when I was shaking and crying and trying to figure out what triggered me (the trigger actually started as I was leaving that night).

I can see how that can indeed be triggering. I however think with BPD it is different, they are very "primal" often sexually. They do like the romance sure, but their sexual impulsivity and thirst for intensity will make them go beyond the vanilla flavors easily, they can go all into extreme kinks or be drawn to bdsm stuff.

But it goes to show that you are getting triggered in this relationship, even though its a callback from 10 years ago, your senses are on alert now with Mr BPD too and you do not need much to have old trauma rise up again. Which is totally natural to the way cPTSD works.

Personally i think everybody is scarred for life, but most people have found some way of healing and support, and usually they only had a few minor but easily visible scars.

If you are raised by Alcoholics, most of those scars are invisible, eg. covert emotional neglect. You can't heal because most of the stuff is about the things that weren't done to you, the emotional attention and mirroring you did not get. those are deep but invisible scars.  You have a vague awareness something is not quite right, but no idea what that could be.

If you are openly abused and mistreated on the other hand and get BPD, the scars are so deep yet extremely "in your face" that you had to develop coping to "unsee" them. You can't heal cause the coping that covers up your scars is so complex that even therapy is an unpredictable minefield.

I guess what i am trying to say is: being scarred is normal, but not every scar is the same, some need much more work and insight.

[ILMBPDC]

I can see how that can indeed be triggering. I however think with BPD it is different, they are very "primal" often sexually. They do like the romance sure, but their sexual impulsivity and thirst for intensity will make them go beyond the vanilla flavors easily, they can go all into extreme kinks or be drawn to bdsm stuff.

Actually he's very vanilla, I always had to initiate anything other than basic missionary. I've often read that about BPD - how the sex was so amazing, etc - but that wasn't my experience at all.

But it goes to show that you are getting triggered in this relationship, even though its a callback from 10 years ago, your senses are on alert now with Mr BPD too and you do not need much to have old trauma rise up again. Which is totally natural to the way cPTSD works.

Yep. This was the first time I actually triggered in the year we have been off/on. It may be because I have been working on old wounds where I wasn't before. I guess it doesn't really matter why.

If you are raised by Alcoholics, most of those scars are invisible, eg. covert emotional neglect. You can't heal because most of the stuff is about the things that weren't done to you, the emotional attention and mirroring you did not get. those are deep but invisible scars.  You have a vague awareness something is not quite right, but no idea what that could be.

That is my fear - that I won't be able to heal

I guess what i am trying to say is: being scarred is normal, but not every scar is the same, some need much more work and insight.

Don't I know it. I have learned more about myself this year than I have in the previous 46. I'm exhausted.

[ILMBPDC]

Just a quick update - pretty sure he's pulling away - we still text most days - though its very low key - and we haven't seen each other since I posted this thread. He's acting...distant. I wouldn't doubt if he's courting someone else. I actually feel ok about this, I think I am finally starting to accept that this will never work out. And frankly if he pulls away and discards me again it saves me having to have a hard conversation I don't want to have. Yes, its a cop-out, but frankly I just can't handle that conversation right now. (Just so you know, I actually tried to see him a few times in the last weeks to have the conversation and it never happened. I think that's probably a message in itself.)

On another note, I started frequenting a mental health forum to get support with my own mental health issues, which means I'm not here nearly as much. I attended my first Adult Children of Alcoholics meeting yesterday (at the advice of my therapist) and I feel like I've met my people (sad as that is). I began the journey of opening up my trauma wounds last year but I plan to heal them in 2022.  Funny enough, it was Mr BPD's first discard that prompted me to start the process and for that I actually thank him.

I want to thank everyone on this forum for your help and kindness. I couldn't have gotten to this point without you.

[WhatToDo47]

Thank you, I’m in the position to fall for a similar trap and reading this helped remind me why it’s a bad idea. Really appreciate you posting this!