Co-Parenting: Endless Vacations and $$

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

She asked me three years ago to borrow $25k to pay off her credit card debt, run up due to her many vacations and supporting her husband (divorced him about that time). She makes no more than $60k/ year and is in subsidized housing. I've read that up to 50% of unsecured debt to your salary ratio is close to bankruptcy. She owes me about $3k on shared medical expenses, but I've let it slide. We agreed to below guideline support with me putting $100/mo/each child into their 529s. The danger with "below guideline" is that the other parent can request more $ with no "change of circumstances."

Last week, she asked me how old the kids needed to be before I'd give permission to take them out of country. I said when S (almost 12) was 16. She told me that I previously had said when S was 12. D is 9 currently.

She's going to Latin America by herself next month, and to the east coast on February for over a week (I'm not crass enough to ask her for money to babysit my own kids as she has in the past though we've gone week to week and that's kind of split between that time now... I still have to burn PTO as the kids are on their winter break).

She wants to take the kids to Japan (Pokémon, anime), then to Greece and Germany and other places in the EU. All within the next 5 years. What's that... like $30k

Maybe it's none of my business. My financial ties, officially, are over in 9 years (D9). I reminded her that S11 is starting phase 2 of his orthodontics and that D9 needs to get it also next year, thousands of dollars. D9 needs later at least one implant.

Last month, she told D9 that if she wanted to study abroad for college, not to worry about money. This is magical thinking. If I say anything, I'm being "negative." So I'll just take it as it comes...

[Turkish]

She asked me three years ago to borrow $25k to pay off her credit card debt, run up due to her many vacations and supporting her husband (divorced him about that time). She makes no more than $60k/ year and is in subsidized housing. I've read that up to 50% of unsecured debt to your salary ratio is close to bankruptcy. She owes me about $3k on shared medical expenses, but I've let it slide. We agreed to below guideline support with me putting $100/mo/each child into their 529s. The danger with "below guideline" is that the other parent can request more $ with no "change of circumstances."

Last week, she asked me how old the kids needed to be before I'd give permission to take them out of country. I said when S (almost 12) was 16. She told me that I previously had said when S was 12. D is 9 currently.

She's going to Latin America by herself next month, and to the east coast on February for over a week (I'm not crass enough to ask her for money to babysit my own kids as she has in the past though we've gone week to week and that's kind of split between that time now... I still have to burn PTO as the kids are on their winter break).

She wants to take the kids to Japan (Pokémon, anime), then to Greece and Germany and other places in the EU. All within the next 5 years. What's that... like $30k

Maybe it's none of my business. My financial ties, officially, are over in 9 years (D9). I reminded her that S11 is starting phase 2 of his orthodontics and that D9 needs to get it also next year, thousands of dollars. D9 needs later at least one implant.

Last month, she told D9 that if she wanted to study abroad for college, not to worry about money. This is magical thinking. If I say anything, I'm being "negative." So I'll just take it as it comes...

[kells76]

How often has she followed through on actual vacation/trip plans in the past?

The kids' mom has "described" (not sure if she has promised) amazing trips for SD15 in the past. One was she said SD15 could go to a South American country with a friend (adult) for her quinceañera -- would've been this past February, didn't happen. Now Mom is saying that maybe SD15 can go to London this spring break (also to see adult friends).

We planned our trip with the kids this past March for like a year ahead of time and did do it even though the kids' mom was telling them she didn't think it was a good idea.

A couple of weeks ago, a few days before our weekend with the kids, they told us that Mom & Stepdad were going on a ~5 hour away trip to see a friend's citizenship ceremony, AND to see Mom's parents (the grandparents), AND do some adventuring in their rental SUV. The kids were upset that they couldn't go and said they hoped they could see grandparents before they died (it's been probably 4 years since they've seen those grandparents). I tried to hold my tongue and just said Yeah, I bet you want to see them, and I hope Mom plans a trip where you can. The kids said it probably wouldn't happen.

We didn't hear anything else since then, so I actually have no idea if Mom took the trip or not. I will also add that the kids are on a week long trip with Mom right now, and it is not to see the grandparents, even though she could have chosen that instead.

Anyway, if it were me, I'd believe it when I see it. As long as you and your time with the kids and your $$$ are protected, let Mom say whatever she wants. If she actually sends an email with dates, then maybe it's more serious, but until then, it's emotional spewing: "this is what a great mom I am".

[Turkish]

She took the kids to Legoland (from nor-cal to so-cal) this week. Their 3rd or 4th time. She'll do the Mexico and east coast trips for sure. It's up to me to allow out of country (I'll sign off on the Hawaii trip).

I reminded her that she promised her now 28 yo brother that she had promised him that she'd take him to Hawaii if he graduated high school. She didn't. She said that she didn't remember that, then later texted me that she forgot and thanked me for reminding her. I remembered When he called her out on that a few years ago. She was her brothers' proxy mom. Kids remember promises like that. I remembered similar from my BPD mother, promises unmet.

[BigOof]

You should consider taking her to Small Claims Court to rein in the burden she is creating on you.

[kells76]

Do you have the "no out of country trips until S is 16" statement in writing somewhere?

Do the kids have passports yet?

If not, do you think you will probably be paying for all passport fees?

We paid for 100% of passport costs, Mom did not offer to split and we knew better than to ask. We are keeping passports at our house, she has not asked to keep them.

[Turkish]

The stipulation states that neither parent can take the kids out of state or country without written permission. A few years ago, she asked if I would give permission to get them dual citizenship with Mexico. I said no problem as it would give them an advantage though too bad I speak, read and understand more Spanish than they do...

I may complain about the money, and though knowing better, she always to this day asks if she's supposed to pay half for dentistry not covered by insurance (typically $50-150). I think my mistake with the initial orthodontics was paying the entire amount up front which shaved about $200 off the bill. I could have deducted like $100/mo from the cash support for her share.

It might bebeneficial for me not to push things, despite my personal opinion that medical expenses come before vacations, but since we agreed to below guideline, my lawyer warned me that the risk was that she can file for more support without change of circumstances.

If she wants that extra $200/mo to go to her instead of their college funds, it's no matter to me. I'm still paying $200.

Since 2013, however, my base salary has increased by $20k/year. And bonuses have gotten bigger. That health insurance has gotten more expensive would offset my obligation, but if she filed, I'm sure I'd pay more. She did get a promotion recently and hinted, but caught herself, "...I shouldn't tell you about that" that she might be making a little money on the side life coaching.

She's also in subsidized housing and they audit her bank account. If she had some increase, she might be kicked out. That's what happened in her first 3bed/1b apartment: she moved her husband in and even his $30k/year income put them over the edge. They had to move into a more expensive 1 bedroom at market prices until she kicked him out, moved into an even smaller 1 bedroom, the secured her current 3bed/2bath condo, cheaper that the 1 bedroom.

If I croak, it also makes no sense that she wouldn't move into my house. SS for the kids and the portion of life insurance is designated to her would certainly get her kicked out... but that's another story.

[ForeverDad]

The problem with dual citizenship is you may not be able to monitor both passports if used to go to the other country.  As I recall Mexico is one of the countries that doesn't closely adhere to the Hague Convention on child custody.  The smaller states can delay disputed possession.

Of course, your kids are getting progressively older by the year, they're not little children anymore, so it's getting to be less of a concern.

[Turkish]

FD, that's a good point. I told her that I wanted the kids to be old enough to advocate for themselves.

When S11 was a baby, her immigration lawyer missed a deadline where her greencard was about to expire, and she told me if she went back to Mexico, that she'd take him since "children belonged with their mothers." I don't worry about that now, but it did worry me at the time. She got it worked out and obtained US citizenship. Yet I don’t forget what she said at the time.

Her whole family is here and legal now.

[formflier]

So has she paid back the $25k she borrowed and the total amount she is "behind" is $3k...?

This is really a spreadsheet problem and my first reaction is that you should NOT answer the take out of the country question until the spreadsheets are even...even then..why would you say it's ok before they are 18?  What is the benefit for them, her..you?

After all..I'm not aware of any big difference between a 15 year old that is a day or two away from being 16.  However..the difference in 18 and "almost 18" is massive...in the eyes of the law they are an adult..get a different passport and all that.

Sorry you have to deal with the crap...another way to read my advice is incentivize her to even the spreadsheet.  It's unlikely to be fixed without "motivation".

Best,

FF

[Turkish]

I never loaned her the $25k. It would have taken her until the kids were adults to pay me back. She offered 8% interest. The balance transfer game caught up with her, I think. That's about my emergency cash fund (3-6 months of expenses). I'd have to have sold company stock, of which I receive 3.1% quarterly dividends. So no, that math doesn't work out.

Besides, she gets audited. And it goes far above the IRS gift limit.

The rest of the cash support now until the kids adults adds up to about that amount. I could have said "one and done," but then that doesn't address the shared medical and childcare (summer "camp" only these days, about $900 per child now, and I've had her share this).

When S12 (this month) turns 18,I haven't yet thought about how to broach cutting it back, but if she doesn't take me back, unlikely for the reasons I stated, but not impossible, I'll keep paying the full amount. I might debit her if she's going to not pay for orthodontics. She'll pull this, " but I pay for more clothes and shoes!"

I actually have receipts.

[formflier]

Glad to clarify "it's only" about $3k she is behind in total.

After all these years I'll say "on the one hand"..it's not that bad and it tells me you guard your $$ well.

Don't for a second take any of this as a suggestion you should let it go..and I'm still kinda considering that it may be wise to have some kind of "consequence" for not being on equal footing financially (her taking advantage of you).

And if you got close to the kids "aging out" and it's accounts are not reconciled...I would fully support you deducting that amount what you send her and put it back on her to "prove" you owe her something..

For $3k..I would do that kind of thing.  For $300 bucks...I would probably buy myself and my buddies some beer and forget it.  (to give you an idea of how I look at it).

I didn't understand your comments about over 18...do you have support requirements that go past adulthood?

Best,

FF

[Turkish]

When S18 is that, D will be 15-16. The original calculation was for 2 kids, for 1 it was less than half. So there's a 1 year, 4 month overlap.

My buddy at work stopped support for his kid with his uBPD wife. When he turned 18. He had one weeknight and every other weekend, so it was a lot of $. She kind of freaked out thinking it was forever (?) And argued.

She later took him to court so he could go off to college "to have the college experience." Yet it was at another California State University in the central valley, 300 miles away. This was despite the fact that there was a CSU locally where their son could have lived at home, nevermind 2 local community colleges (certainly legit).

After $5k in attorney fees, his lawyer told him that there was a precedent where a father was ordered to provide full expenses and that there was a risk that the judge could rule against him and he might have to pay the full amount.  So he's been paying for room and board, at least split.  The kid's only doing OK in an engineering program. CC would have been smarter.

[formflier]

I wonder how you can get ahead of a possibility like that.

More of a parenting thing instead of a divorce settlement thing.

If you offered to incentivize the children to go to community college and make smart financial decisions.

So...as your order stands right now, when does the support end?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Turkish has no divorce settlement -- it is entirely a child support legality.

[Turkish]

Turkish has no divorce settlement -- it is entirely a child support legality.

Thanks for clarifying that. Only a custody stipulation, never married. I write in hope that this can help others, even lurkers.

[ForeverDad]

Just to put it out there as a general statement...

Beware of a court order that has you paying a child's school or college while someone else gets to choose the school or college.  At the least have it stipulated that the financial burden is limited to what a local or state college/university would charge.  You're not saying it can't be a better (more expensive) school, but at least limit your financial obligation.  If you can contribute more, great.  But if you can't then the reasonable financial limit can save you immense stress trying to find money you don't have.

My divorce settlement never mentioned college or its expenses.  So my court orders ended when my son turned 18 and completed high school.  Apparently some orders do describe college obligations and others don't.

In any deals, make sure you know what the maximum costs are, set price limits to the local inexpensive comparables.  There was one dad here many years ago who agreed to pay "school expenses", figuring they would be only a few hundred dollars per year in the current public school system.  Ex then immediately enrolled their child in a private school and he got stuck with high tuition costs and the court just looked at him and essentially ruled, "You agreed she would handle school decisions and that you would pay the costs, you're stuck."

[Turkish]

Great point FD. My buddy got taken to court about 15 years after the initial stipulation. I pay below guideline because we agreed to me putting $100/mo/kid into their college savings.

S11, our very logical Aspie, wants to live at home at go to the local state university 12 mins away. He has almost enough in his fund now do do that.  D9 says she wants to go to NYU (almost $28k in tuition and fees per semester now, not considering room and board) to study... art. Uh, no. I've also been playing up dual enrollment (to get an A.A. or A.S. concurrently with graduating high school).

[GaGrl]

The concurrent programs are pretty amazing. Our nephew finished high school a year early with a concurrent A.S. degree from the local community/technical college. His parents, both educators, had him work for six months before entering the state university as a junior -- good move. They are concerned about his social adjustments. He will be living in an apartment -- not a dorm -- which is also a good move due to Covid and his need to focus.

I left high school a yearvearly, went to school 600 miles away, and made Dean's List.

If they can handle it, let them at it.

[Turkish]

That's awesome. I first heard of this on the late 90s when the son of the post-doc rotator in our group told me that her son did it and matriculated into Portland State as a junior at 18 with an A.A. Fight the university industrial complex!

[formflier]

In my area they are called "early college". 

All of my kids (5th one is a sophomore) have done some level of this.  I had one kid graduate a year early and earn a scholarship from the state for graduating a year early.  (state basically says if you leave high school early, will cover 6k of your tuition at a state college)

Wonderful programs.

Best,

FF

[NotAHero]

She asked me three years ago to borrow $25k to pay off her credit card debt, run up due to her many vacations and supporting her husband (divorced him about that time). She makes no more than $60k/ year and is in subsidized housing. I've read that up to 50% of unsecured debt to your salary ratio is close to bankruptcy. She owes me about $3k on shared medical expenses, but I've let it slide. We agreed to below guideline support with me putting $100/mo/each child into their 529s. The danger with "below guideline" is that the other parent can request more $ with no "change of circumstances."

Last week, she asked me how old the kids needed to be before I'd give permission to take them out of country. I said when S (almost 12) was 16. She told me that I previously had said when S was 12. D is 9 currently.

She's going to Latin America by herself next month, and to the east coast on February for over a week (I'm not crass enough to ask her for money to babysit my own kids as she has in the past though we've gone week to week and that's kind of split between that time now... I still have to burn PTO as the kids are on their winter break).

She wants to take the kids to Japan (Pokémon, anime), then to Greece and Germany and other places in the EU. All within the next 5 years. What's that... like $30k

Maybe it's none of my business. My financial ties, officially, are over in 9 years (D9). I reminded her that S11 is starting phase 2 of his orthodontics and that D9 needs to get it also next year, thousands of dollars. D9 needs later at least one implant.

Last month, she told D9 that if she wanted to study abroad for college, not to worry about money. This is magical thinking. If I say anything, I'm being "negative." So I'll just take it as it comes...

 What percentage below the guideline are you paying ? If you calculate the extra expenses and the headache of dealing with her, is it still worth the fight ? If you end up paying the actual guideline and nothing else is it really more expensive than not have to deal with her requests altogether?

[Turkish]

It was $200/mo below guideline, stipulated that I kept contributing that to their college savings. In early 2014, we provided our most recent pay stubs and it was calculated like that, including what I paid for medical and dental, the former which has gone up every year.

I'm making $20k/year more base salary, she may be only making a few thousand more. I've also held onto company stock which pays good dividends, and about 5 years ago, the company profit sharing increased to a high percentage that has remained constant. I'm buying some I-bonds for the kids once the bonus comes through.

So the risk is that support increases with a new baseline. Maybe I should stop complaining  

Mexico next week, across country next month, both just her, and Hawaii supposedly the end of the year (she and the kids). If she wants to drive herself into bankruptcy (I've read that half of your yearly gross being unsecured debt is close to bankruptcy), then maybe I should shut up. D turns 10 in the spring. So 8 years to go...

[NotAHero]

It was $200/mo below guideline, stipulated that I kept contributing that to their college savings. In early 2014, we provided our most recent pay stubs and it was calculated like that, including what I paid for medical and dental, the former which has gone up every year.

I'm making $20k/year more base salary, she may be only making a few thousand more. I've also held onto company stock which pays good dividends, and about 5 years ago, the company profit sharing increased to a high percentage that has remained constant. I'm buying some I-bonds for the kids once the bonus comes through.

So the risk is that support increases with a new baseline. Maybe I should stop complaining  

Mexico next week, across country next month, both just her, and Hawaii supposedly the end of the year (she and the kids). If she wants to drive herself into bankruptcy (I've read that half of your yearly gross being unsecured debt is close to bankruptcy), then maybe I should shut up. D turns 10 in the spring. So 8 years to go...

 Keep in mind the court will punish you for being financially prudent and reward her for her negligence. They will look at her bankruptcy like sheet and say “ oh look poor her she has nothing he has savings, go with max guideline”.

[Turkish]

Keep in mind the court will punish you for being financially prudent and reward her for her negligence. They will look at her bankruptcy like sheet and say “ oh look poor her she has nothing he has savings, go with max guideline”.

That's a good point...

I got advice early on about reducing 401(k) contributions to the minimum so I did,  then maxed them after the order was approved by the court. It reduced my obligation to her.  Yes, she got some less cash support, but our kids Are well taken care of.

We got into a row tonight... unfortunately in front of the kids, not my best moment. Covid is hitting hard. I've taken 2 days off this week already. D can't return until next Tuesday without a negative result. Testing has a backlog...

The schools have indicated that they're on the verge of returning to remote learning.

Ex argued that 6 and 7 years ago that I asked her to take 5 days off in the summers. I paid her money, but not her full salary. She "threw that in my face" tonight, her favorite term. I JADEed with the $3k on shared medical she owes me. It didn't go well. I need to start a planner again to track days off. I have plenty of PTO, but I need to be on-site in the lab to produce work. Maybe only 10% I can WFH.

8 years since she left... 8 years, 3 months to go.

[ForeverDad]

This pandemic has been the strangest ever.  In the past even people with colds were told to drink chicken soup and take zinc lozenges.  The response to this recent coronavirus has been to do nothing but isolate, go to the hospital or get vaccinated.  What happened to the common sense of past years?

I've got multiple comorbidities but so far I don't think I've ever gotten it despite not isolating much.   I probably can't comment on what I've done to be proactive about improving my immune system, for over a year now, despite the inadequate official advice — too many have been shouted down by the official line — so I won't post but you're welcome to PM me.

It won't help much now since she's already ill, but be assured children are minimally impacted since the virus generally needs the ACE2 receptor to attach and those multiply only when children start puberty.  That's why it's not like the flu which hits both the young and the old, children are so little affected with this virus since they're not maturing yet and generally don't have comorbidities.

[Turkish]

I was "snuffully" and congested over the weekend. I asked to get tested when D9 was, but kits are not for parents. I had both shots, not the booster. Both kids had the shots.

We have to go by local rules. It's a mess.

[ForeverDad]

Officialdom has finally admitted the vaccines and the booster(s) don't protect against infection, especially the newer strains.  They're still claiming it reduces the severity of the illness, but even that is up for debate.  Which debate is discouraged also.