Mom Trying to Ruin Relationship

[Struggling2021]

  This is long, but I’m new to this and really need help. Growing up, my father had NPD so my mom and I were very close. After the messy divorce, I thought the years of abuse just broke my mom. However, recently I learned about BPD from my boyfriends parents who are both psychologists. I explained everything, and they said that it’s textbook BPD and could have been made worse by the trauma of the divorce. I have not said a word about his parents or about BPD to her. However, she hates my boyfriend for three reasons. She doesn’t like that I’m going to make more money and  wants me to be a stay-at-home mom. She thinks since he won’t make more than 80,000, we’re going to be “poor” and she “didn’t leave a poor household to become rich just for [me] to go back to being poor” (which we won’t with the job I already have lined up post law school). She also doesn’t like that he has Tourette’s (barely noticeable  at this point) because she doesn’t want our kids to be “disabled”… keeping in mind my sister is legitimately disabled with a unique chromosomal arrangement. Her last complaint is that he has anxiety (as do I). However, he switched meds a few months into the relationship and has it under control now. In every other area, he is the perfect guy for me. I have never been happier. I’m thinking about marriage at this point, so it’s a big problem that she loathes him and brings up me breaking up with him every chance she gets. She says terrible, bizarre, untrue things about him and his family to me frequently even though she barely knows him and doesn’t know his family. She never respects my boundaries of not talking about him. How do I get her to respect that he is not going anywhere? I don’t want to completely lose my mom over this.

She also makes me feel like I’m crazy and maybe I should break up with him over those things. She was my rock for so long during my childhood, so it’s hard not to buy into what she says and believe that she has my best interest at heart. Is she right that it’s too many red flags? If not, how do I get past the gaslighting?

[Methuen]

so it’s a big problem that she loathes him and brings up me breaking up with him every chance she gets. She says terrible, bizarre, untrue things about him and his family to me frequently even though she barely knows him and doesn’t know his family. She never respects my boundaries of not talking about him.

Struggling 2021, I hope what I am about to suggest brings you relief, rather than the opposite.

What she is doing by trying to separate you from your partner, is part of the disease. Your situation is very common on this board.  

If you stop and think about it, you say youve had a close relationship with her.  So…with you now involved in an intimate relationship with your bf, you have someone else that is your primary partner, that you share time with, that you share personal conversation with, and that you are intimate with.  The fact is, when we grow up and become adults, and leave home and launch into work and new relationships, it feels like abandonment to them.  

Have you ever noticed that when she’s down, she comes to you to make her feel better?

I grew up thinking that was normal.  It’s not.  They are the adult.  We should not have to be their emotional caretakers.  That too is the disease.

That she is planting seeds of doubt to you about your partner, is probably so that she can have you all to herself, and you can keep meeting her emotional neepds, and so that she remains the strongest relationship to you.

Does any of this sound like it could possibly  ring true for your situation?

She never respects my boundaries of not talking about him. How do I get her to respect that he is not going anywhere? I don’t want to completely lose my mom over this.

Ah.  Let’s unpack this…. What has she said that makes you think you could lose your mom?

It sounds like she has more power in the relationship than you do. A healthy relationship is based on equality and balance of power.

As for her not respecting your boundaries, can you give us an example?  We might be able to help…

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hi Struggling2021,

Welcome and congratulations on your recent eyes opening. I hope it will bring to you some relief, as it did me, to know about BPD, about your mother's illness.

Analyzing my own relationship with my mother, I discovered that physical distance helped bring some sort of stability in our relationship. Establishing distance is, however, easier said than done.

Like Methuen, I am curious as to why you think you could lose your mother?

One thing that helped me... when my own uBPDm starts putting doubts in my mind, is to try and remember that what she says is always more about her and her own fear/life/regrets/pain, than it is about me. I found it really hard to detach myself from that kind of dynamic. As children, we were groomed to feel what they feel, and it is often hard to differentiate what emotions are truly ours versus theirs.  I found writing on this board, often in details, what happened and how I feel, really help me figure out who I am in all this. Sometimes I even write something, and don't even post it, just because the writing itself unblocks my thoughts and enables me to untangle what happened. Do you keep a journal of your thoughts and feelings?

[Struggling2021]

Have you ever noticed that when she’s down, she comes to you to make her feel better?

Hello, Methuen! She always has used me as her personal therapist, and she genuinely expects me to have solutions to her problems. She would get upset if I told her that I didn't know how to help. I used to call her sometimes when I was down, not to get advice, but because she would turn the conversation to her and her problems and it would distract me. What you said really resonated.

Does any of this sound like it could possibly  ring true for your situation?
Ah.  Let’s unpack this…. What has she said that makes you think you could lose your mom?

All of what you said rang true. As to why I think I could lose her, since I started dating my bf, she has told me that I am "not the daughter [she] raised" because I'm not listening to her about breaking up with him. She has told me that we'll never have the relationship she wanted because of this and that now we can never be close again. Almost an ultimatum between her and him. I just don't want to have to choose. I just want her to realize that I'm not going to choose.

As for her not respecting your boundaries, can you give us an example?  We might be able to help…

Really the only time we've had major power struggles is over boyfriends. She didn't like the one before my current boyfriend either. He actually called things off because of her hatred of him. In both situations, she goes off for a long periods of time about how they're terrible and I need to break up with them. I can tell her that I'm setting a boundary and I'm not having that conversation, but she says that she is older, wiser, and knows what is best for me, so she has the authority to ignore the boundary. I get up and walk away. She follows me. I tell her that I'm not listening and she gets mad at me for ignoring her. I tell her that my therapist (who I am no longer seeing) told me to set boundaries to preserve our relationship and she tells me that the therapist doesn't understand.

[Struggling2021]

Analyzing my own relationship with my mother, I discovered that physical distance helped bring some sort of stability in our relationship. Establishing distance is, however, easier said than done.

Hi, Riv3rW0lf! How do you recommend establishing distance? As I am still a student, I cannot fully distance myself. However, I'm not financially dependent on her, which is helpful.

Like Methuen, I am curious as to why you think you could lose your mother?

I explained it in my reply to Methuen, so hopefully that response makes my fear make more sense!

Do you keep a journal of your thoughts and feelings?

What you said was very helpful to keep in mind. I used to keep a journal, but it was more in relation to my father. I will start one about my mother per your recommendation.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hi again !

I just want to come back on some things you said about her threatening you by telling you you will no longer be close with her and your fear of losing her. I don't want to hurt you, but it helped me to realize that really.. I have never been close to my mother, and most likely you neither. Some version of me that she tolerated was close to her, but not me, not the real me. It really stroke me last time she visited... I was laughing with my husband, we were together in the living room and she came back from outside and heard me laugh and I swear she looked at me as if I was from another planet. Because I never laugh with her. I am not myself. Like you, I am basically a therapist for her, and if I am anything else than that, she split and abuses me. So I learned to act a certain way as to mitigate her crisis. I am guessing you do that as well. 

Is it possible, where you live, to get your own apartment while studying? Are you in your own apartment? The market is crazy here, so it might not be possible, but it helps to have your own place, with her knowing as little as possible about your schedule so that she can't just drop in because she feels like it. It helps to be in charge of when the visits happen, it should be on your time, when you feel up and strong enough for them as to not disrupt your sense of self too much.  At least, I find this to help me steer clear of my old patterns, or at least identify them creeping in.

It sounds to me like your mother is really distraught to the idea of you becoming a grown adult (even though you likely were from a very young age) and becoming independant. Your therapist is right that boundaries are certainly in order, especially when dealing with someone with BPD.

I am glad my reply was of some help to you. I found people here to offer many pieces of wisdom, and even reading the other threads really helps. Our experiences are different, yet so similar, so every little bit seems to help.

[Methuen]

She always has used me as her personal therapist, and she genuinely expects me to have solutions to her problems. She would get upset if I told her that I didn't know how to help. I used to call her sometimes when I was down, not to get advice, but because she would turn the conversation to her and her problems and it would distract me.

Ah yes.  So, can you see this is backwards, from what should be happening in a typical parent/child relationship?  I challenge you to take the awareness you already have a step further, and ask yourself, how old were you when this started?  It's ok to sit with these reflections for a while.  It took me a while to realize that some of my mom's parenting wasn't normal.  For example, when I was a child, I can remember my mom getting migraines.  She would go to bed for 3 days.  She would take pills for pain, stay in a dark room, and not eat because she was nauseated.  I had to take care of her.  I was 4-5 years old (earliest I can remember).  I think migraines are not uncommon with bpd.  She would get them when she was stressed.  It was both her physical and emotional needs that I had to take care of, including her feelings.  She should not have been putting that on a child, right? I can remember running down the hall when she called, and owning the responsibility of making her feel better, and not knowing what to do.  That responsibility evolved as I grew.  We became enmeshed.  Her feelings were my feelings.  If she felt bad, so did I.  If she felt good, so did I.  I didn't realize any of this until 2 1/2 years ago.  Now I'm almost 60.  It can take a while to become aware of just how "not normal" our upbringing was...it can be a lot to untangle.  

Here is a link from this site, that may help explain this better:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

It's not your job to be her therapist.  You can let go of that job.  It's called detaching.  Letting her have her feelings, and letting her learn to self-soothe herself, and allowing yourself to have your own different feelings, and actually process those feelings of yours.  

From the practical point of view, I wouldn't overtly tell her that it's not your job to be her therapist. That'll just set her off to say nasty horrible things to  you.   Instead, in conversation, I would just validate her feeling by recognizing it, and then ask her a validating question to put the ball back in her own court.

Eg.  "It sounds like you are (sad, angry, frustrated...) about ________ "(boyfriend, or other subject). Give her a chance to confirm this, or clarify in case you misunderstood.  Then, instead of trying to solve her problem for her, ask her "Well, he supports me and I enjoy being with him, so what do you think you could do to help yourself feel better?"  Put the ball back in her court.  We can't solve their problems for them.  They have to solve their own problems.  She won't like this.  If she responds "leave him", you could point out that this might help her, but it doesn't help you, and it's not going to happen, so she might want to take some time to think about this.  She might not even be able to imagine that you won't have the answer she wants to hear, and can't solve her problem for her.   So you can show her you understand what she is feeling, but we are all responsible for solving our own problems. The solution of course is that she could get to know him, and simply accept him, even like him.  But this might not happen if she is too dependent on your emotional support, and she is afraid of losing you.  However, validation is still a key "tool" that can be helpful in navigating a relationship with a pwBPD:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

As to why I think I could lose her, since I started dating my bf, she has told me that I am "not the daughter [she] raised" because I'm not listening to her about breaking up with him. She has told me that we'll never have the relationship she wanted because of this and that now we can never be close again. Almost an ultimatum between her and him. I just don't want to have to choose.

 Can you see how she is using her power to try to control your decisions?  It's not a surprise that major power struggles are over boyfriends.  It's because your relationship with a boyfriend feels like a threat to her - that she's going to "lose" you.  It won't matter who the boy is, they're all going to be bad from her point of view.  She's not thinking about what's best for you, she's only feeling fear - that you won't be as available to meet her emotional needs because the boyfriend now stands between you.  Your thoughts?  Could this fit for your situation?

At this point, I want to say congratulations for being in a relationship with your boyfriend.  It sounds like it's a relationship you want to keep pursuing and grow with.  That is wonderful.  

Riv3rw0lf mentioned that establishing physical distance helped.  Every healthy relationship needs to allow "space" for the individuals to have time alone, and pursue their own interests and hobbies, and living with a person with BPD can be overwhelming.  Are you still living at home as a student, or do you live independently?

she says that she is older, wiser, and knows what is best for me, so she has the authority to ignore the boundary

. Eye roll.  No she isn't, and no she doesn't.  She can think she's wiser, but that doesn't mean she is.  Wisdom would mean she's allowing you the space to date and find a suitable partner to walk the path of life with.  Instead, she's trying to control your choices and decisions.  No one has the authority to control or ignore your boundary.  Telling you she has the authority to ignore your boundary is not ok.  It's your boundary.  You get to exercise autonomy over your own boundaries.  The problem is that she's not respecting your boundary, or your choices as an adult, and this is probably because she's afraid.  Fear is a big part of BPD.

I get up and walk away. She follows me. I tell her that I'm not listening and she gets mad at me for ignoring her. I tell her that my therapist (who I am no longer seeing) told me to set boundaries to preserve our relationship and she tells me that the therapist doesn't understand.

At the very first hint of a conversation going in the direction of her criticising your boyfriend, or being controlling in any way, I would say "I have to go now" and physically leave.  You may have to do this 50 times before she gets the message you mean it.  Then if you stay even once, everything you achieved in that 50 times will be lost.  She will throw barbs at you to make you stay and draw you into her conflict/ drama.  Resist them.  Don't engage.  Nothing good will ever come of it.  She isn't a rational person; she's emotional.  You can't reason with an emotional person.  They simply aren't capable of that.  It's like banging your head on a brick wall.  The only person you are hurting is yourself, when we keep trying to be rational, with a person who's brain is only wired up to run on emotions.

If you are still living at home, you could retreat to your bedroom, or the bathroom, or some other private space, or leave to go for a walk outside, or study with a friend somewhere else, or a study hall at the college?

Once when my mom was railing and raging at me in my own house, I had to leave the room and go to my bedroom and close the door.  My H and daughter and FIL had never witnessed my mother treat me like that (I had been married 30 years already).  She was in such a fury she slammed the back door when she left the house, and the whole house shook.  I think that pwBPD have the emotional intelligence of an average toddler, or maybe teenager, but they've never developed the emotional intelligence of an adult.  These horrible events are very uncomfortable for us when they happen.  When my mom did that, I felt very uncomfortable.  It was horrific.  But she had crossed a boundary that was well-defined.  It needed to be done.  There was a very long cooling off period after that, and then one day she just pretended like nothing had ever happened.

I hope I haven't written too much.  Maybe some of it fits for you, and maybe some doesn't.  We're definitely here to support you, and help you navigate your particular situation.  Let us know what's helpful, and for that matter, what isn't.  Everybody's situation is unique. But it's certainly not ok that she's trying to undermine your boyfriends, and telling you that she has the authority to ignore your boundaries.  Those are red flags  

[Couscous]

Hi Struggling 2021,

You have definitely come to right place to get help with this.

Your mother sounds like an extreme version of my MIL, who also seems to have the mistaken belief that parents get to make the decision about who their adult children get to date or marry. My H actually had to move abroad in order to get married. And now it looks like we will have to remain abroad if he wishes to remain married. Although she approved of our marriage she now thinks she gets to decide for us how we parent ‘her’ grandchildren. I have to say that I really hope that one day I am not going to have to ask him to chose between his mother or me.

I also have come to believe that at least part of my father’s decision to divorce my mother was because his mother didn’t approve of her after my father admitted that he had been ‘married’ to his parents.

There are two books that I have read that address this very issue: The Dance of Anger, and Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents.

[Struggling2021]

Riv3rW0lf, Methuen, and Couscous: Thank you all for the resources, personal stories, and advice. I appreciate it so much. You have opened my eyes to things that I hadn't fully processed. Arguably most importantly, you all have made me feel validated. Literally every thing that each of you all said resonated. I really started doubting my sanity last night, and you all have made me so glad that I made the decision to accept that I need support and reach out.

Riv3rW0lf and Methuen: To answer your question about my living situation - I live about an hour and a half away from my mom and do have my own apartment, but have been coming back home on breaks to save money. I've signed a 12 month lease for next school year, so I should be able to maintain that distance when that takes effect.

[Methuen]

I think you are going to appreciate having a 12 month lease next year.    

 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Struggling2021,

I just want to pop in and welcome you to our online family. You've already received a great welcome and some thoughtful words from some of the members on this site.  Take some time to digest the wisdom they've shared. It's all very helpful.

My mom was an uBPD, and I grew up with emotional enmeshment too. It's something we learned because we had to in order to survive. Thankfully it is something we can also unlearn, through patient, steady steps of growth and healing. You're heading in the right direction!

 
Wools

[Turkish]

She also makes me feel like I’m crazy and maybe I should break up with him over those things

Do you actually feel this way apart from how she feels? He sounds like a great partner from what you've written.

[Struggling2021]

Do you actually feel this way apart from how she feels?

Hello, Turkish! I have had some of those concerns but to a much smaller extent. On my own, I think they pale in comparison to the qualities I love about him. However, when I listen to her rant about it for prolonged periods of time, I really get in my head about it. I start to think maybe they are deal breakers since she has experienced more life then me.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hello, Turkish! I have had some of those concerns but to a much smaller extent. On my own, I think they pale in comparison to the qualities I love about him. However, when I listen to her rant about it for prolonged periods of time, I really get in my head about it. I start to think maybe they are deal breakers since she has experienced more life then me.

She has experienced life through the filter of her trauma. Her vision of life is far from objective, so I wouldn't give her too much credit. With time, as I get older, I've come to realize that age or "experience" does not always equal wisdom.

[Turkish]

However, when I listen to her rant about it for prolonged periods of time, I really get in my head about it. I start to think maybe they are deal breakers since she has experienced more life then me.

She's gotten into your head about it.

I long ago concluded that I'd only take advice to heart from people who demonstrated that it worked in their own lives. My mother sometimes telegraphed that I hadn't done well enough in life; whereas, those I met as a adult, and certainly my teenage friends who were witnesses to my unconventional childhood, have remarked that I've done fantastically, especially considering where I started

I don't think that my mom was a bad person. Yet she judged me on multiple fronts on which she either failed, or had no experiences. Her judgements were about her own [distorted] self-image.

I'm now at the age where she was when I moved out at 18. I've halfway raised two children from babies (she only raised me from 2.4 years of age, yet sometimes gave advice how I should be harder on the kids, including S11 with autism), haven't lost two properties to foreclosures as she did (and I rescued her last home), and I'll leave my kids with a good inheritance which she sabotaged for me.

My advice is to trust your gut and don't let her rent space in your head. It's that which most of us here struggle with 

[beatricex]

hi struggling2021,
In my opinion, an appropriate person to consult about whether you and your boyfriend are a good match, and if marriage is appropriate, is a marriage counselor.

No way would I ever take a mentally ill person's advice on the matter, especially not my mother, as she's not objective (history:  my BPD Mom has tried to break up several of my sibling's marriages). 

A marriage counselor can help you work through all the other challenges you will likely have in this new relationship and solidify your bond with your chosen mate.  We all bring stuff to a relationship.  It's great you've identified his stuff and your stuff (anxiety).  To me, this is not a dealbreaker.  It's not about finding the ideal partner, it's about working through challenges together.

I know it has helped me and my husband immensely, as we're going NC with my FOO.  Our counselor suggested we read a book together (we have) and create a "couple bubble." (just google Wired for Love and you'll find the book)  Explicitly, this was suggested because my husband's adult daughter demanded he divorce me, but it works in your situation as well. And it works in the case of my BPD mom who likes to butt in. No one should dictate another's choice of who they marry or who they stay married to.  Period.  That's not their place.  It's a major boundary violation. 


 
b

[Struggling2021]

I long ago concluded that I'd only take advice to heart from people who demonstrated that it worked in their own lives.

Turkish - I think this hit the nail on the head and was just what I needed to hear. Especially, considering her first marriage and husband were terrible and the second/current marriage has lots of issues as well. Thank you for this! I'm glad to hear that it seems you and your kids are doing much better than when you were a kid.

Riv3rW0lf - That is something very helpful to keep in mind. Without the age, I have yet to learn that !

Beatricex - Thank you for that recommendation about the  "couple bubble" and your words of wisdom. I greatly appreciate it!