Time to strategize

[maxsterling]

First, thank you all for your responses to my previous thread.  They were all helpful.  I think now I want to organize my thoughts on this in one place and move towards a plan.

Here are the givens and inevitable conclusions:
1) W's mental illness is unlikely to improve, and if it does it is unlikely to improve much.  Staying with her will always require sacrifice from me and the kids
2) Trying to have boundaries and separate my life from hers from within the marriage helps keep me grounded in the short term, but it only goes so far.  Constantly enforcing boundaries is exhausting and not desirable.  And in my specific case, enforcing some very basic safety boundaries for myself and the kids brings out the very worst in her.
3) My feelings about her are independent from whatever action I may take.  Separation/divorce does not necessarily mean I no longer love her or care for her - it simply means I have decided that is the best way for myself and the kids to be happy and healthy in the long term.
4) If I want to be happy and fulfilled in the long term, separation/divorce is probably my only option.
5) Things don't have to happen right away. 

So that said, it feels overwhelming regarding what to do next or when.  I am thinking it is best to first get everything ready and organized and kept secret.  I think over the past few years my issue has been that an incident will come up that will remind me the seriousness of the situation, but not having a plan in place, no action is taken, and then I go back to the status quo of trying to enforce boundaries and keep as separate as I can within the house and in a few weeks am back in the same place.  Another issue that prevents action is money.  We live in a house that I had prior to marriage.  I work, W does not.  If W had an income or money, she probably would have her own place by now.  Us having separate places to live would make it much easier to divorce.

Here are the things I think I can do now:
1) Talk to a few lawyers and get advice and information.
2) Gather information and contacts regarding protection orders, where and how to file paperwork, etc.
3)  Take a look at my personal finances and resources and possibly even stash a little extra savings away.

The biggest hurdle feels like having one of us move out.  I don't feel very good about pursuing any formal separation unless there is some strategy where one of us has another place to stay for an extended period because I fear the dysregulation that would follow any action I take to separate.  I just don't know what to do here.  If she is to move out, I would probably have to assist her financially for awhile.  If I was to move out, I would still be assisting her financially because I would be paying for the house that I am no longer living in.  Hence I would need to look at my finances.

I did get more information about petitioning her for evaluation at a mental health hospital.  It seems like a person can be involuntarily admitted if there are suicide ideations or PHYSICAL dangers to others (emotional safety of the kids does not count, nor does physical danger to property).  Or, they can be admitted if it it is shown the person is not taking care of their mental health.  It sounds like this is primarily forcing someone into a hospital to get him/her stabilized on medication.  So in my case, I doubt they would hold her more than 24 hours.  She would have to actually want to be admitted.

Yesterday was really, really bad.  W's cousin and her husband were to come over and we all were supposed to spend the day together.  W had a severe dysregulation prior to the cousin coming and after the cousin arrived.  The issue is always the same.  W feels she needs my help with something, but the external things she feels she needs help with (cleaning, etc) make no logical sense and there is no way I can satisfy her with my help.  For example, telling me she wants the kitchen clean but then demanding I not help clean the kitchen, but if I go to take care of something else, she is mad that I have left her to clean the kitchen alone.  The cousin came in the middle of the dysregulation, the cousin tried to calm W.  W went back to the bedroom while I made food for everyone.  When I want back to tell W the food was ready, the was laying on the floor half under the bed and banging her head against the wall and furniture.  I did my best to calm her, had no luck, so I left the room.  The cousin asked me what was going on, I told them and said that I did not know what to do at this point.  I asked the cousin if she could try talking to W.  The cousin was eventually able to get W to calm enough to function.  W did later apologize to me and everyone for her behavior, but I did talk to the cousin and her husband on my own when W wasn't around about how serious this is.  This was probably the first time anyone in her family has witnessed the severity of this behavior.  Both the cousin and her husband were very concerned.  I do feel less alone in this now, and that helps me stay grounded.

[BigOof]

How are you going to handle counter (false) accusations?

She will likely say you hit her, threaten her, hurt the kids, were suicidal, raped her, sexually abused the kids, and are so aggressive you shouldn't be around children.

[maxsterling]

How are you going to handle counter (false) accusations?

She will likely say you hit her, threaten her, hurt the kids, were suicidal, raped her, sexually abused the kids, and are so aggressive you shouldn't be around children.

Good thought.  I've tried to make audio recordings in secret and have a few.  Also writing down times dates and notes on incidents.  I would probably have a few witnesses on my side here.

That said, that is not the route my W has been known to take, maybe because she knows there is actual documentation against her.  In T sessions she has made accusations against me for emotional abuse ("gaslighting", "ignoring", etc) and making the claim that those are on the same page as physical abuse.  The person she is making the accusation about me to usually unravels the truth pretty quickly.  "Gaslighting" means me not validating the invalid or not validating something I have no knowledge of (what is this XYZ doing on the floor? - me "I don't know, I don't even know what xyz is and I havent been home for 8 hours.").  "Ignoring" is when I take too long (more than a second or two) to respond to a negative comment or complaint, or am enforcing a boundary to not participate in abuse.  Or yesterday when she expressed a feeling, then changed the subject 3 times, and then mad at me because I responded to the last thing she said rather than the first thing she was talking about.  She has made accusations of physical violence against me, but usually those are incidents where I grabbed her body to either prevent her from hurting herself or damaging property, or in self defense.

[BigOof]

Did she sadly experience (childhood) trauma? If so, what type? Please note she'd likely go there first in terms of accusations against you.

In divorce, there's is no such thing as self-defense. The rules are different.

Don't rely on witnesses. BPDs are master manipulators. Witness tampering is their bread and butter.

[ForeverDad]

She has made accusations of physical violence against me, but usually those are incidents where I grabbed her body to either prevent her from hurting herself or damaging property, or in self defense.

Warning, Will Robinson.  Good deeds can get you punished.  You're not the first here to report your intervention was just to protect the other from hurting herself.  If there are bruises (even self-inflicted ones) that may be basis to get you arrested.  Remember, the Blaming, Blame Shifting and Denial are always there under the surface.

[maxsterling]

Warning, Will Robinson.  Good deeds can get you punished.  You're not the first here to report your intervention was just to protect the other from hurting herself.  If there are bruises (even self-inflicted ones) that may be basis to get you arrested.  Remember, the Blaming, Blame Shifting and Denial are always there under the surface.

Geez what hell.  But I appreciate the warning.  W has made some pretty outlandish accusations against me or others in the heat of things. 

Lately she somehow got the idea that her stepmom's behavior towards her dad was elder abuse, and seriously considered reporting it until a social worker explained to her what that entailed.  Yes her stepmom can be very self-centered at times and make selfish decisions - but elder abuse?  It's the black and white thinking.  Her dad is dying of a disease that has zero treatment options, and W blames her stepmom for the situation and can't get past it.  This has been for the past 4 months - so a months' long delusion.

In that sense, should I get paned black during a separation, I guess I can see my wife having a delusion about my behavior that she could use to try and claim full custody of the kids.  She could probably convince an L to argue her delusion, until W inevitably gets mad at L or has an outburst in court.

[Notwendy]

Max, I think your plan to speak to a lawyer and establish a financial safety account is a good one. A lawyer can then advise you about what steps to take to separate from your wife. This doesn't mean you have to separate but that should you decide to do that, you would know exactly what to do to protect your interest and also the kids.

Your wife has a documented mental illness and this should be considered in terms of child custody and also support. Divorce laws may differ from state to state but regardless, I don't think it's possible to just split up and leave her to her own means if you have been the main support. It's good that she has some income due to disability payments The lawyer will help you understand the financial aspect of this.

It's likely that your wife doesn't work and gets disability because she's unable to hold a job. Has she ever had a job she could maintain? My mother is also severely BPD but she has not ever held a job. This was "normalized" by her being of the generation where "wives didn't work" and were housewives. That was her identity- nobody expected her to work in her era. But it also hid the fact that I don't think she can hold a job. Household tasks emotionally overwhelm her.

My father didn't say much about the situation. Sometimes my mother would threaten divorce. By the time we were teens, we'd ask him if he was going to do that. His reply was that he needed to stay for us kids. At that time, custody went to the mother in general. But then, we grew up, left home and they stayed together.

I think he felt she'd not be able to manage on her own and he probably struggled with that. He'd also say "divorce is expensive" and it is. But so was the financial cost of staying married. I don't know if he stayed due to love or feeling responsible. I think it probably was both.

The choice is up to you Max but there are finances involved in either staying or leaving and emotional challenges with either decision as well. The divorced parents on this site have a lot of experience and wisdom to share about that. I doubt the law will allow your wife to be without a roof over her head. Be careful about moving out as there are "abandonment" laws. I think a lawyer is in the best position to advise you about what to do so you know what to do to best protect yourself and the children. With information, you can then make choices.

[Notwendy]

I've followed your story for some time Max, and it reminds me in ways of what I observed my father struggling with. It was a shock to realize just how affected my BPD mother is. I am not suggesting you stay or leave- that is your decision and either decision is a challenge. We would not have blamed my father if he had divorced. To stay or leave was his decision too, but I realize now that divorce was complicated due to her inability to manage on her own without assistance. Still, it was his choice and it's your choice to decide as well.

I understand it's complicated for you too. Information helps- and a lawyer can help you learn what is needed for the process of divorce, and what is best for you to do should you decide to separate. I agree with not sharing this with her unless you have decided to go through with it and at the time your lawyer advises you to. It would only be a threat to her before you have made your decision.

[maxsterling]

It's likely that your wife doesn't work and gets disability because she's unable to hold a job. Has she ever had a job she could maintain?

She got disability because of her mental illness.  I am told that permanent disability is not easy to get.  My understanding is that she was awarded disability after a lengthy (months long) stay in a mental hospital in her early 20s.  To me, this means that the government does not expect her to ever be able to support herself through working.  After having been with her for 8 years, I agree.  The longest she has ever had one job is less than two years.  She has probably had more jobs in the time I have known her than I have had my whole life.  The longest she has ever lived in the same place (other than with me or during childhood) is 2 years.  The best chance for her to support herself would be to keep her full disability and then work part time on the side doing a job where she doesn't have to deal with many people.  I understand your dad's situation, and I really think things aren't much different here.  If we separate/divorce it is going to be much back and forth with me supporting her, child custody, etc for 13 more years.  The chance of her being a single parent able to support herself and the kids for the long term is next to zero.  That's stress on me, but at least if we are separate I would have a clear space to handle it.  Right now I am one of those people who dreads weekends or coming home from work because home life is much more stress than work life. 

[maxsterling]

To stay or leave was his decision too, but I realize now that divorce was complicated due to her inability to manage on her own without assistance. Still, it was his choice and it's your choice to decide as well.

This is a main reason I get stuck.  If it was a matter of filing paperwork, helping her move out, and within a few months her getting some kind of job and maintaining a career and housing on her own, it would be a much easier path for me.  It would also be easier if I knew she had some family or friend she could lean on.  Chance of either is probably nil.

[Notwendy]

Although my father didn't discuss it much, I can see now where this issue was of great concern for him. As a teen, my mother blamed me for the issues between my patents and when I left for college, I thought they'd be happier then. But I also suspected something wasn't right, but a large goal for my parents was to maintain (what I now know is an illusion) that my mother is normal. We were not wealthy but the family resources went into that. She didn't have responsibilities for maintaining the house, and not working outside the home was the norm for her era. In public, she is charming and well spoken. Nobody would have a clue.

Somehow she managed to blame her outbursts, - where she'd sometimes trash the house, run around screaming, on us kids not behaving. We were told to obey her and not upset her. There were other things that were worse. The next morning my parents would be behaving normally and convinced us that nothing happened. We were not allowed to bring it up.

After leaving for college, I didn't spend an extended amount of time at home for many years. My father got ill in his elder years and I went to stay to help out. He was in the hospital so I was home alone with BPD mom for an extended time. While I know it was a stressful time with her, her behavior was undeniably so extreme- I could see where she was seriously mentally ill and how much my father had been supporting the sense of normalcy.  

I knew then that there's no way she could hold a job. She would try different things to do but could not maintain them. She enjoys socializing and doing fun things but the tasks, the actual work of things, she doesn't. Perhaps none of us love chores or some aspects of our work, but we know to do them.

One difference is that your wife has a recognized mental illness. While my mother also has a psychiatric history, this has been kept confidential. Your wife was evaluated and awarded disability for mental illness. This can likely be accessed by lawyers because disability certification is probably a public record of such. For her to get disability meant the situation is serious. This needs to be considered when considering custody. While it is a challenge to document emotional abuse, I wonder if your wife is even competent to leave children with. It might be that she can only have supervised visits and you can possibly advocate for that.

There may also be resources in the system for other assistance. What do people with no family do if they are unable to work? Is there housing assistance? Supervised work situations? In some areas there may be assistance for people who were out of the workforce to go back to school or something to learn a skill.

I think you'd feel better if you explored what services are available for someone like your wife. I know mental health support is lacking but also it may help to know what could help support her transition to being on her own should you wish to separate. This may not be a quick and uncomplicated split and may require some support on your part, but at least you would know what that might be.