Resources for self awareness issues?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi all
I posted here a while back but took a break for a bit to regroup on all of this as it gets overwhelming. Does anyone have any good resources/approaches for a BPD person who admits they have BPD but is adamantly against blaming any of their actions on BPD? My pwBPD says he wants to work on it “on his own time” but never does and is constantly projecting his BPD behaviour or says that he doesn’t want “everything to be blamed on the BPD”. I’m pretty sure it’s because he’s afraid that if he looks too deeply into it he might find that he was wrong in his past (fights with his father who was also BPD) or that he might be to blame for past relationships breaking down. I get that completely but he’s suffering so badly I wish there was some way to convince him that tackling it instead of avoiding it might make him feel better (he’s afraid it will make him feel worse). Any ideas on motivating BPDers like this? I’d also be particularly interested in any resources that reference BPD and “time appreciation”. My pwBPD has so much anxiety over talking about his behaviour that he insists that I “talk forever” on the subject when in reality he barely lets me get a sentence out before making me stop. It’s almost laughable because he is one of these people who TALK CONSTANTLY! Don’t get me wrong that normally doesn’t bother me but when I let him have the floor literally all day long and the moment I try to defend myself or lay a boundary when he starts to behave like a bully his anxiety goes through the roof and he literally cannot let me talk. If I stop to pick something up when we are on our way to do something he will explode in anger because he feels I’m dawdling or taking too long. I’ve tried to tell him that things only take a second or two (they literally do) but he absolutely doesn’t believe me and insists I’m wasting time or taking way too long to explain things when that is absolutely not the case. Has anyone else ever run into this type of “time warp” issue before? I would also be interested in any resources/ideas/tips in motivating BPDers who despise physical labour with every ounce of their being (my therapist says this is a thing). My pwBPD is in a family run business that is nearly 100% physical labour and due to his upbringing which was not good, he dreads going to work every day. But because it is only him and one other family member there is not the fear of being fired (only of going bankrupt) but even that doesn’t seem to motivate him - it only serves to add to the anxiety. Most days he delays going in until nearly noon and if he gets 2-3 hrs of actual work done he considers that a good day and says all the time that he “couldn’t possibly work any harder”. This couldn’t be further from the truth - the other family member literally does all the work but my pwBPD seems absolutely blind to this and he thinks that it is himself that does all the work. It doesn’t make any sense to me at all because he is otherwise a very intelligent and thoughtful person but in cases where the BPD is involved, it’s like he is completely blind to his own actions. Strangely he can pick BPD behaviour out in other people no problem but is completely not aware when he does it himself and thinks that I am “nattering on” about it even when he is the one that brings it up. It’s almost like he’s trying to gaslight me but I honestly don’t believe he is aware he is doing it. He seems genuinely convinced that I am the one being unreasonable even though he admits he has BPD. I would love to hear of anyone who’s had similar challenges to any of this and had any sort of success. My therapist is all about setting boundaries when he starts bullying but literally any word from me even in the direction of that results in absolute shutdown from him. I’m not getting anywhere at all and he just feels like he’s being nagged all the time

[Seeleygirl]

Hi all
I posted here a while back but took a break for a bit to regroup on all of this as it gets overwhelming. Does anyone have any good resources/approaches for a BPD person who admits they have BPD but is adamantly against blaming any of their actions on BPD? My pwBPD says he wants to work on it “on his own time” but never does and is constantly projecting his BPD behaviour or says that he doesn’t want “everything to be blamed on the BPD”. I’m pretty sure it’s because he’s afraid that if he looks too deeply into it he might find that he was wrong in his past (fights with his father who was also BPD) or that he might be to blame for past relationships breaking down. I get that completely but he’s suffering so badly I wish there was some way to convince him that tackling it instead of avoiding it might make him feel better (he’s afraid it will make him feel worse). Any ideas on motivating BPDers like this? I’d also be particularly interested in any resources that reference BPD and “time appreciation”. My pwBPD has so much anxiety over talking about his behaviour that he insists that I “talk forever” on the subject when in reality he barely lets me get a sentence out before making me stop. It’s almost laughable because he is one of these people who TALK CONSTANTLY! Don’t get me wrong that normally doesn’t bother me but when I let him have the floor literally all day long and the moment I try to defend myself or lay a boundary when he starts to behave like a bully his anxiety goes through the roof and he literally cannot let me talk. If I stop to pick something up when we are on our way to do something he will explode in anger because he feels I’m dawdling or taking too long. I’ve tried to tell him that things only take a second or two (they literally do) but he absolutely doesn’t believe me and insists I’m wasting time or taking way too long to explain things when that is absolutely not the case. Has anyone else ever run into this type of “time warp” issue before? I would also be interested in any resources/ideas/tips in motivating BPDers who despise physical labour with every ounce of their being (my therapist says this is a thing). My pwBPD is in a family run business that is nearly 100% physical labour and due to his upbringing which was not good, he dreads going to work every day. But because it is only him and one other family member there is not the fear of being fired (only of going bankrupt) but even that doesn’t seem to motivate him - it only serves to add to the anxiety. Most days he delays going in until nearly noon and if he gets 2-3 hrs of actual work done he considers that a good day and says all the time that he “couldn’t possibly work any harder”. This couldn’t be further from the truth - the other family member literally does all the work but my pwBPD seems absolutely blind to this and he thinks that it is himself that does all the work. It doesn’t make any sense to me at all because he is otherwise a very intelligent and thoughtful person but in cases where the BPD is involved, it’s like he is completely blind to his own actions. Strangely he can pick BPD behaviour out in other people no problem but is completely not aware when he does it himself and thinks that I am “nattering on” about it even when he is the one that brings it up. It’s almost like he’s trying to gaslight me but I honestly don’t believe he is aware he is doing it. He seems genuinely convinced that I am the one being unreasonable even though he admits he has BPD. I would love to hear of anyone who’s had similar challenges to any of this and had any sort of success. My therapist is all about setting boundaries when he starts bullying but literally any word from me even in the direction of that results in absolute shutdown from him. I’m not getting anywhere at all and he just feels like he’s being nagged all the time

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

Seeleygirl,

i dont mean to be a downer here.

you are, by and large, asking us for ways to convince your partner that you are right when it comes to the way the two of you handle conflict, and to see things your way.

this is a doomed strategy. its not a way to resolve conflict, to build trust, to build communication, or to build love.

I’m not getting anywhere at all and he just feels like he’s being nagged all the time

then stop, and do something radically different. do you want help with that?

[Seeleygirl]

Hi Once Removed,
Well OK since you put it that way, the way we handle conflict is as follows - I try to be calm and talk about what is angering him or try to talk him down from how my completely non-aggressive comment was seen as being an attack on him, and he screams at me, won’t let me speak more than a sentence and proceeds on a long diatribe about how I’m trying to control him and he’s through with being constantly abused and that I don’t know anything about anything and constantly flips back handed insults every chance he gets. So is that what you mean about how the two of us handle conflict? Is this me trying to convince my partner that I’m right? You have no idea the kind of abuse I’ve put up with from this guy - he has absolutely NO conflict resolution skills whatsoever except to punch people and he’s outgrown the ability to do that. Why are all pwBPD so caught up in who is RIGHT? That’s what he goes on about too! To me it’s not about being right it’s about stopping someone who thinks they are being attacked from feeling like they’re being attacked all the time because they actually aren’t being attacked! l I’m sorry if this comes off as being angry but I came to this board out of genuine love for this person who feels like I’m attacking him because of abuse he suffered at the hands of other people and the only response I get is that I’m the bad guy again? I’m the one that has to change how I resolve conflict? ME! The one who can’t get a word in edgewise once he starts screaming at me? HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? HOW AM I ALWAYS THE BAD GUY? You want to know about building trust? This guy has tried to cheat on me several times and lies his way out of all of it the same way he did in previous relationships. He tells me that I don’t know how to do anything even though I had a full, respected career and allows an aged relative to do all the hard work in his business and then blames him for all that is going wrong. He controls everyone who tries to help him - he won’t let you do anything without taking it out of your hand and doing it himself and then saying he can’t trust anyone to do anything because we’re all incompetent. He blames everyone but himself for everything and yet every day I am beside him helping him do his work and not only rarely getting thanked but usually getting attacked for it for not helping him in the exact perfect way. And then I come to this board out of desperation to help this person who has been diagnosed with BPD and who knows he has it and the only help I’m offered is to be accused of trying to get this person to see things “my way”? REALLY? Thanks a lot but now I remember why I stopped coming here in the first place

[grumpydonut]

Seeley,

You're being invalidated in your relationship. You, in turn, are slowly being triggered in the same way your partner is being triggered. You just reacted exactly how your post suggests your partner reacts.

That's not an attack on you. The longer you feel invalidated, the more bitterness and resentment will build within you and the more it'll change how you interact with others.

Your post didn't give one reason for why you are with this person. What benefit do you get from it?

In terms of what can you do to help them, you can't expect that most of what you do can achieve anything. This is an extremely complex personality disorder. One of the foremost experts on BPD - John Gunderson - went into this field of study with great hestitation but ultimately because "they scared me". Trained professionals - they VERY best of them - struggle to know what to do with borderlines. They are notoriously difficult to treat.

The best thing you can do is give the advice that your partner needs to seek therapy. But even then, they need to a) see that they have a problem that needs fixing and b) want to fix it.

It might be that what you're expecting from your partner - normalcy, decency, validation - isn't something they are capable of giving. That's not your fault. Maybe rather than seeking "what can I do" it's better to ask "am I getting what I need".

[Seeleygirl]

Hi yes I know all this and I know perfectly well that my reaction is triggered but here is the only place I can say these things because my partner won’t let me speak at all on the subject as I stated. I came on here to ask for very specific resources - 1. For ideas to motivate an already diagnosed pwBPD to actually start treatment instead of keep pushing it off; 2. - whether anyone has experience with “time warp” situations (BPDers who insist that certain situations take WAY longer than they actually do); and 3. - if anyone has any experience in motivating BPDers who dread work (especially of the physical labour kind). And not just regular run of the mill avoiding work but a persistent perception that any kind of work “takes forever” and therefore feels like they’ve been doing it for much longer. That was all I was asking for. I already understand that I can’t argue with pwBPD because they way they interpret things is different. I already know that I can’t get frustrated with him or blame him for any of this. I have been reading about this for years in terms of trying to do what’s best for him but it’s not working. Now that he knows that he’s borderline if I try to say certain things that support him without particularly agreeing with what he’s saying, he can see past it and he thinks you’re being condescending (ie “I completely understand that you feel that way” and he’ll jump in with “don’t try to analyze me” or something of the like). I already know how I’m supposed to act with him but what I’m saying is none of that is working! I came here asking for help and all I got was a backhanded patronizing comment about how I’m the one who has to change well I’m sorry but I’m at my wits end here taking everything on me and trying to be calm and understanding and build trust but none of it is working. What i’m looking for is something HE can read or a video HE can watch so that he can start to understand that the feelings and emotions he is feeling are related to BPD (not, as he insists, completely NOT related to BPD). I was hoping that if he could read it for himself and it not come from me, he might be able to believe it. All I want is the guy back that was loving and supportive of me BEFORE the big pedestal fall. I still believe he is in there. I’m sorry for lashing out but I’m the one who always absorbs it here so I have no where else to lash out

[Cat Familiar]

Hi Seeleygirl,
I recognize a lot of behaviors you describe in my husband that previously caused me a lot of anguish. Nowadays not so much.

The “I’ll work on it in my own time” and never following up; the *wanting my opinion or feedback on a particular issue* and then abruptly cutting me off not wanting to further discuss it; looking at his watch if he feels I’m talking too long or wasting time doing something when there’s no real time constraint; despising physical labor and being very melodramatic about even doing a modicum of work.     I know exactly what you’re talking about.

It used to drive me nuts. I’d try to participate or have expectations that something would get done, but I’ve since learned to work around it and not get emotionally involved in his stuff. (This is easier for me because we are not financially dependent upon his labor.)

In the past, I used to be very involved in trying to *help* him deal with things on an emotional level. In recent years, I’ve changed my responses to his behavior. I offer my help but on my terms. Here’s an example: He collects things and it causes his studio to overflow with stuff, which causes him anxiety and depression, and probably for that reason, he buys more things to assuage his emotional state.

When we got together, I’d been living by myself for a few years in a small house I’d built. It was too small for two people and I was very hesitant about having someone else’s chaos clutter up my minimalist lifestyle. For that reason, I suggested when we added on to the house that we build him his own separate studio. Best decision I ever made!

It’s quite large with a lot of closets, but last year he asked for my help because he was overwhelmed. I pulled out everything from his closets, added shelves and dividers and reorganized everything in a coherent fashion. When I began doing this, he was whining that it wouldn’t work. I told him to go away and let me finish and then see if his fears were correct. He was quite happy with the result.

Now he has once again asked for assistance as all this stuff he has collected has become overwhelming and he feels very depressed. In the past, I might have tried to help him process what he wants to keep and what he wants to get rid of, and that would have fully involved me in his emotional chaos.

Yesterday I brought him a large tote from the basement, told him to empty the bottom drawer of a horizontal filing cabinet which contained DVDs. I said to put them in the tote and we’d find a place for them at some other time.

He was initially resistant, so I said OK, that’s all I’m asking you to do. We’re only going to do a little at a time so it doesn’t get overwhelming. Then I left.

Hours later he emerged, eyes reddened. It wasn’t that he just put the DVDs in the box, he had to have an emotional connection with each one. Apparently all these films and movies were like having a photo album of his emotional life—each one had a deep meaning for him and he was reluctant to part with them.

I said he didn’t need to do that, and we could store them elsewhere. He only needed to clean out the filing cabinet so he’d have a place for all the papers and bills that were piled on top of his desk.

Today I’ve got to figure out another small task for him to do on his way to create order in his studio. It helps me to maintain an emotional distance from him. Those are his feelings and giving him space to process keeps me out of the line of fire.

I don’t know if any of this helps, but what I hoped to illustrate is that I’ve found a sense of peace by participating less in his emotional states.  

[kells76]

2. - whether anyone has experience with “time warp” situations (BPDers who insist that certain situations take WAY longer than they actually do)

I can comment that my DH's kids' mom has in the past:

*dropped the kids off late, either because "they were having too much fun together" or she didn't accurately judge how long something (a movie, etc) would take, or, more generally, because I get the vibes that other people's time (waiting, delaying, plans, etc) isn't important to her

*when estimating how much parenting time she had, after reading our breakdown of how much time the kids spent with us per week, returned the EXACT same value in an email, down to the decimal point. Note, it was NOT a 50/50 split, more like 20% us 80% her, at best. So, once we were like "look, the kids spend on average XX.XX hours per week with us", she was like, Yes, they spend XX.XX hours per week with me, too. That's not how 80/20 works...

*either lost track of or didn't care about yearly appointments for the kids; i.e. they'll go > a year without dentist/doctor

*"complained" about how she has to work on a federal holiday that others get off, while not mentioning that she works part time remotely for a family member online (i.e. she could have not worked, if she'd gotten stuff done ahead of time)

...

So I get vibes from her that her perceptions about "how much" / "how long" / "how often" have much more to do with what benefits her and is comfortable to her, versus actual facts.

It wouldn't surprise me if time perception is linked to executive function. Couple an impaired time perception with deep and desperate emotional needs, and your situation might be what you get.

[Cat Familiar]

Here’s an article about getting pwBPD into therapy. https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

Getting your partner to participate in therapy is not an easy thing to do, as effective therapy forces them to confront parts of themselves that cause them to feel shame. DBT therapy seems best suited for people with BPD, but that’s not always available in certain areas.

I think the issue about things taking longer and work being avoided are likely due to the black/white thinking of BPD. Certainly others do it as well, but with things that are dreaded, it looms large.

What I’ve found that works best is *chunking down*. By that I mean, dividing things into manageable tasks that don’t seem overwhelming. Finish the task, then get an emotional reward for a job well done, small though it may be. Like in my example above, clean out a drawer, rather than trying to bring order to the entire studio at once.

[Cat Familiar]

Oh and as far as self awareness goes—forget about it! Sorry to say, that is typically not available with someone who has BPD, though they can surprise you at times. Think of it as icing on the cake!

[once removed]

To me it’s not about being right it’s about stopping someone who thinks they are being attacked from feeling like they’re being attacked all the time because they actually aren’t being attacked! l I’m sorry if this comes off as being angry but I came to this board out of genuine love for this person who feels like I’m attacking him because of abuse he suffered at the hands of other people and the only response I get is that I’m the bad guy again?

this is the crux of it, really.

i know how unfair it feels, and the relationship, inherently, is not necessarily fair.

but i learned a long time ago to stop grappling with someone elses perception. people experience things differently than i do. than you do. than he does.

i can reasonably state my intent, apologize if i was out of line, or not, but arguing with the way they felt about the way i behaved is likely just a circular argument, and a high conflict approach.

another thing ive learned is that i dont always come off to others the way i think i do. some people are more sensitive than others. maybe my innocuous joke offends someone, where someone else would laugh their ass off.

I’m the one that has to change how I resolve conflict? ME

well, someone has to, right? or else youre stuck in the same cycle.

given your frustration, has that cycle worked out for you?

it might help to detail your frustrations in one thread, and work on how to modify your approach to the relationship and its conflict in another. its a given that all of us who have been in these relationships are frustrated, tired, beaten down.

the thing is, if you are here (solely) for validation, it will hunker you down in your approach, and the relationship will remain in its cycle, and deteriorate. we all sympathize and empathize. my relationship was the most emotionally challenging event of my life. if you genuinely want your relationship to work, its going to require a different approach.

[Seeleygirl]

I recognize a lot of behaviors you describe in my husband that previously caused me a lot of anguish. Nowadays not so much.

Thanks so much Cat! Sorry I’m not used to replying by “excerpt” but I don’t see another option of replying directly to you so excuse me while I muddle through it. I have absolutely no time to reply to messages as he is constantly controlling my day and watching me so I’m sorry for the delay in responding

The “I’ll work on it in my own time” and never following up; the *wanting my opinion or feedback on a particular issue* and then abruptly cutting me off not wanting to further discuss it; looking at his watch if he feels I’m talking too long or wasting time doing something when there’s no real time constraint; despising physical labor and being very melodramatic about even doing a modicum of work.     I know exactly what you’re talking about.

Yes exactly that - especially with the melodrama. He will basically yell at me that we have to do this and this and this and I will nod my head and say “sure! Whenever you want to I’ll help you!” But then he never wants to actually do it so he puts it off and if I make a suggestion that we do one of the things it totally stresses him out and he yells at me why we can’t do the thing (even though we could totally do the thing he just doesn’t want to). Then later on he yells at me that we should have done the thing and we’re so behind

 (This is easier for me because we are not financially dependent on his income).

Yeah this is the problem - I’m not financially dependent on his income but he and his other family member are and they could lose the business if he doesn’t do the work. This understandably stresses him out

Today I’ve got to figure out another small task for him to do on his way to create order in his studio. It helps me to maintain an emotional distance from him. Those are his feelings and giving him space to process keeps me out of the line of fire.

Yeah I tried this approach but he is SUPER sensitive to what he perceives as people telling him what to do. As I mentioned his dad was almost certainly BPD as well and did the same things to him that he does to us now (his way or the highway) but he seems completely blind to this (even though his other family member has told him repeatedly that he’s “just like his dad”). He is just absolutely convinced that the problem is with everyone else and not himself. We actually had a good talk last night for the first time in forever and although he was able to tolerate the discussion for a short while, he clearly does not “hear” the way he talks to people when he’s stressed (demeaning and accusatory and full of blame. I told him once he sounded like a bully and he almost broke up with me on the spot). When I want to remind him of something (important things in the course of the business day) he used to get so mad that but we eventually figured out that the phrasing I was using “do you want to…” was the exact phrasing that his dad used so we agreed to change it to “I’m going to…” and then that gives him the option of helping me if he wants (which he usually does). In my mind the “do you want to…” included me but he took it as me telling him what to do. It has helped a bit to phrase it that way but even that still gets him angry because I’m reminding him of something that still needs to be done before we leave and he was already in “I’m done and on my way home mode”. A few week’s ago I tried to teach him to knit because I thought that this might help him with the idea of “ongoing tasks” instead of feeling like he has to complete every task that he starts on as quickly as possible. He didn’t like this at all because he said he felt like I was training him like a monkey even though I tried to explain that it was something that helped me immensely with similar issues. He’s just soo sensitive to being told what to do that I’m losing hope that he will ever want to work on helping himself. Thank you so much for the ideas though!

[Seeleygirl]

Here’s an article about getting pwBPD into therapy. https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

Thank you that is a great help! I really appreciate your input!

[Seeleygirl]

well, someone has to, right? or else youre stuck in the same cycle.
 

Hi OnceRemoved as I said in my earlier post I’m really sorry if I was short in my previous response. I don’t have much time to post on this board because of the enormity this relationship takes in my day so I didn’t have time to calm down before I responded. I thought I had mentioned that I wasn’t new to this whole BPD thing so I already know and have completely changed the way I communicate with my partner. I already changed it a long time ago but he just keeps finding knew ways to be offended by each and every approach. I had a therapist at the beginning who completely advised me on what I needed to do to end the cycle but since then I’ve found specific ways that he is having problems and he finds a lot of the recommended approaches demeaning and patronizing because he knows what I’m doing. So I was frustrated because I have been the one just taking abuse for a long time now and I can’t talk to a therapist anymore about it because I can’t afford it anymore and I can’t talk to my own family about it because they don’t know and I can’t talk to any of our friends about it because he’s so good at the “Jekyll and Hyde” thing that they would probably never believe me about how he really is at home (nor would I want to betray his confidence) and I certainly can’t talk to him about it because he can’t handle talking about it at all. So that’s why I was particularly sensitive to the insinuation that it is my fault because that’s what he constantly tells me and I just can’t bear to hear it from anyone anymore. Anyway just know that I completely know how I’m supposed to relate to him and build trust but honestly it’s not working. I’m having a bit of a crisis at the moment because I read a story recently about how Elon Musk fired his personal assistant a few years ago when she asked for a raise (Google it for the whole story) and it suddenly made me panic that this would be the same thing that would happen to me in this relationship - I will do everything for him to gain his trust and take endless abuse that he insists he doesn’t do (besides getting “justifiably angry” sometimes), and then 12yrs from now I’ll say something that pisses him off and I’ll be dropped like a hot potato and he’ll tell everyone else that I was a “nattering bitch” all the time and he couldn’t take it anymore and everyone will believe him because he’s extremely engaging and popular in public. Everybody loves him. And I’m trying very hard to be positive and believe that if I just persist in trying to build his confidence this kind of thing won’t happen but it’s honestly hard.

the thing is, if you are here (solely) for validation, it will hunker you down in your approach, and the relationship will remain in its cycle, and deteriorate. we all sympathize and empathize. my relationship was the most emotionally challenging event of my life. if you genuinely want your relationship to work, its going to require a different approach.

I just wanted to try and gain some very specific info in my post - I thought I was clear about that - and I’m sorry if it just came off as me venting about him or requiring validation but I thought I needed to give a bit of background about the kind of problems I’d been having wrt his reaction to being diagnosed with BPD. I have a therapist who has told me his behaviour makes our relationship “unsustainable” if it continues so I don’t need validation. I need help. And as I mentioned before I completely understand the approach I’m supposed to take and I do approach things that way but he is smart and wise to the approach and feels like he’s being manhandled which is why I came here to ask for advice on how to approach these specific obstacles if anyone here has had the same issues

[grumpydonut]

Seeley,

Slight tangent, but why are you with this person? Nothing you've written in this thread highlights that there is anything about this relationship that is beneficial to your life. You have tried multiple approaches, and nothing works.

Have you dug into why you trying to keep this relationship going? Are you trying to return to "how things were"?

[Cat Familiar]

He is SUPER sensitive to what he perceives as people telling him what to do.

Yep, I know that one too. It amazed me that my husband has asked for help organizing his studio. Yet, when I’ve asked him to do a particular task regarding that, he’s been resistant. It’s not the right time, he doesn’t feel like doing it, maybe another time, or later, or earlier…

So I ignore the complaints and try to make it a very small ask and if he cannot or will not do it, it’s not my problem.

I know sometimes the wording is everything. I often think of my husband as a *polarity person* in that if I advocate for one side, he might take the opposite. You might try telling your husband not to do something and see if he does it. 

[Seeleygirl]

You might try telling your husband not to do something and see if he does it. 

Bahahahaa - you know that actually might work! Lol

[once removed]

Hi OnceRemoved as I said in my earlier post I’m really sorry if I was short in my previous response.

im sorry i was as well.

its probably helpful to be more specific before launching into (not my intended message, but more or less) "youre doing it wrong".

a couple of things:

he just keeps finding knew ways to be offended by each and every approach. I had a therapist at the beginning who completely advised me on what I needed to do to end the cycle but since then I’ve found specific ways that he is having problems and he finds a lot of the recommended approaches demeaning and patronizing because he knows what I’m doing.

Seeleygirl, this is one of the most common things i see members run into.

they read examples of "how to validate" and their partner sees through them and calls them out on it.

why does that happen? does it mean the approach doesnt work?

generally its because if you (anyone) use canned lines on someone, anyone, they will see through it. they will feel condescended to and talked down to. examples are just meant to be examples. ive even had people do it to me. its infuriating!

ill save it for another thread, but to build a validating environment involves a far bigger picture approach than using lines intended to calm someone down. it is virtually guaranteed that the latter will not work on any human being with a pulse.

the most important thing is speaking/communicating in a natural way that reflects the language you and your partner naturally use. when youre incorporating new techniques, thats naturally awkward. eventually, it can become second nature.

I was frustrated because I have been the one just taking abuse for a long time now and I can’t talk to a therapist anymore about it because I can’t afford it anymore and I can’t talk to my own family about it

i understand this entirely.

having a strong support system is really paramount if you want this relationship to work. because, again, things will not always be fair, and no, generally, you want to be careful who you talk to and what about. you dont want to turn friends and family against your partner, you dont want to frustrate them, and for that matter, you dont want them to frustrate you. a lot of the advice that i got from friends and family while, in retrospect was solid advice, frustrated me at the time. i didnt feel heard (and i didnt mean to make you feel not heard). i didnt feel they understood or grasped the enormity of what i was dealing with. in part, i was right. in part, what i was dealing with was both simpler, and more complicated, than i was making it.

So that’s why I was particularly sensitive to the insinuation that it is my fault

your partners difficulties are not your fault. full stop.

having said that, the reality is that you love a sensitive and difficult person. its a special needs relationship that requires a special needs approach. thats something that i dont think most, if any of us signed up for, but if we want the relationship to work, to thrive, we ultimately have to adapt to.

and theres a huge difference in my mind between "your partners difficulties are your fault" vs "the nature of the conflict between the two of you is a product of how the two of you relate to each other, and someone (unfortunately, probably you) is going to need to lead a change in that dynamic if you want it to work, to thrive". even put that way, its not an easy or pleasant pill to swallow. i get that. 

I will do everything for him to gain his trust and take endless abuse that he insists he doesn’t do

the point is not that you should "take abuse". far from it. you cant have a thriving relationship in which youre simply putting up with abuse.

the kind of problems I’d been having wrt his reaction to being diagnosed with BPD.

the important thing to know is that a diagnosis of BPD tends to be life changing, and, in the short term, not necessarily in the best of ways. it tends to be a real upheaval.

for starters, its a pretty highly stigmatized disorder. if your partner is doing any reading on the subject, hes reading a lot of things about how hopeless and evil he is and how everyone should run from him. it would make him fearful, not just toward and about himself, but in a suspicious way toward you.

beyond that, theres the process of taking in what it all means for oneself, for ones loved ones. recovery involves a pretty significant lifestyle change. think of it sort of like quitting smoking. imagine having a partner that doesnt want to but feels that theyre being forced to, or, imagine a partner that wants to, but finds it incredibly daunting. people with bpd do not cope well with stress.

so quite often, a diagnosis can lead to a lot of "worse before it gets better". it can even lead to "okay im bpd so i am who i am and i am the way i am so you just need to accept it", or otherwise excusing everything with bpd.

that, above all, is important to know. if you choose this relationship, you need the patience, and the skills, of a saint.

i think any one of us would support you in choosing otherwise. but as long as you are on this board (Bettering a relationship), we want to help you find that approach in a way that works for you and your relationship.

i think that where i was coming from regarding your OP is that you are essentially asking us (forgive me if this is an over simplification) how you can show and convince your partner that he is an unreasonable person and see how you can change his perception to slowly but surely get him to see that.

im saying youve already done that and theres a better way.

i think a big thing many of us fall into is circular arguments with our loved ones. in my experience, its probably on paper, if not in practice, one of the easiest things to begin to change, and, frankly, one of the quickest to yield results. the challenge (significant) is that often our loved ones will sense this change, and push our buttons to draw us into them. it can feel like trying to win or outwit our loved ones, at first, but ultimately, it can mean a great deal more peace for both of you: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

[Seeleygirl]

generally its because if you (anyone) use canned lines on someone, anyone, they will see through it. they will feel condescended to and talked down to. examples are just meant to be examples. ive even had people do it to me. its infuriating!

I get that but he’s always cornering me into responding to him with a lie if I don’t absolutely agree with him. He seems to have anosognosia in a lot of a areas so, for example, although his relative does most of the work in his business, when he is upset he will say things like “he does absolutely nothing!” And if you use an avoidance-like answer he will corner you with “well am I wrong?” And so you either have to lie and agree with him, or disagree with him in which case I might as well break up with him because he will storm out of the house and say things like “thanks for backing me up”, “it’s nice to know whose side you’re on”, “you never agree with me” etc., etc. even though none of those things are true - I always try to be on his side but when he’s having an episode of anosognosia I don’t know what I’m supposed to say. There’s no way I could say something like “I can understand why you would feel that way” because he would take that as me disagreeing with him. But if I lie to him and agree with him I feel like I am enabling him and even more important, when he’s “lucent” he knows full well he doesn’t do all the work so then he would see me as lying to him which I think he would take far worse because then he would say he couldn’t trust me. I just don’t know how I’m supposed to respond in these situations. Where is the line between supporting someone and enabling them? Plus, although he seems to have anosognosia, whenever there is someone outside of the family dynamic present, he knows not to yell and scream at us like he normally does (which he always justifies). So if he thinks it’s justified, why does he treat us differently when there are others present?

[Cat Familiar]

You can have a hard boundary when asked these types of questions. “I’m not interested in talking about this.” If you hold firm and don’t give in once you’ve said this, over time he won’t ask you these questions any more.

Yes, it can get ugly and he could pitch a fit, but then you could say, “I’m going to do __________ for a half hour. I’ll be back at ________.” Then follow through with what you’ve said.

It will be difficult to change these patterns but worth it.

[Seeleygirl]

You can have a hard boundary when asked these types of questions. “I’m not interested in talking about this.” If you hold firm and don’t give in once you’ve said this, over time he won’t ask you these questions any more.

OK but he’s going to see that the exact same as me saying that I don’t agree with him. Won’t that destroy his confidence in our relationship? He’s very sensitive to people “having his back” or not. It’s very black and white for him. If I don’t 100% agree with him then to him I’m telling him he’s wrong

[Cat Familiar]

OK but he’s going to see that the exact same as me saying that I don’t agree with him. Won’t that destroy his confidence in our relationship? He’s very sensitive to people “having his back” or not. It’s very black and white for him. If I don’t 100% agree with him then to him I’m telling him he’s wrong

It seems you are planting seeds for the destruction of his confidence in your truthfulness when you respond to him with a lie.

You could say, “We’ve talked about this before. I don’t have anything to add.”

[Seeleygirl]

It seems you are planting seeds for the destruction of his confidence in your truthfulness when you respond to him with a lie.

I don’t know what that means . I mean, I don’t want to lie to him at all because I promised him at the beginning of the relationship that I wouldn’t. He’s very sensitive to people being untruthful to him so if he catches me in even the slightest lie he would use that against me forever

[once removed]

here is what i mean when i talk about improving communication and our approach to conflict.

think big picture. think in terms of overall fire prevention, rather than putting out individual fires.

I get that but he’s always cornering me into responding to him with a lie if I don’t absolutely agree with him. He seems to have anosognosia in a lot of a areas so, for example, although his relative does most of the work in his business, when he is upset he will say things like “he does absolutely nothing!” And if you use an avoidance-like answer he will corner you with “well am I wrong?” And so you either have to lie and agree with him, or disagree with him in which case I might as well break up with him because he will storm out of the house and say things like “thanks for backing me up”, “it’s nice to know whose side you’re on”, “you never agree with me” etc., etc.

this is a trap, and the very nature of BPD (or any highly sensitive person, really).

while there are better and worse ways to handle it, and a lot of trial and error, there is no magic bullet that will make these things go away.

people with bpd are inherently distrustful of others. they will test us, they will push us, and they will pull us. and if you find yourself getting caught up in those efforts, trying every which way to find the magic words, or the magic solution, you will exhaust yourself.

when i talk about overall fire prevention, im talking about building trust, and relationship security. this is doable, but it takes a lot of practice, a lot of work, and it will not occur over night. when this happens, the individual fires occur less frequently, and with less intensity, and our partners return to baseline as well as feelings of security return faster. but bpd, and the difficulty of bpd dont vanish. your partner will still probably pull what you describe. ideally it will be fewer and further between, and less of a big deal when it happens.

it requires a multi faceted approach. a lifestyle change, really. these are special needs relationships with special needs partners.

as it applies to the specific situation you describe, what i would recommend, whether than getting caught in the trap of agreeing, disagreeing, lying, avoiding, is to actively listen more than anything; listening builds trust, makes our partners feel heard, and can help them return to baseline. its also a skill that most of us tend to overestimate our ability in. listening can help someone self regulate, and it doesnt try to "fix" the problem. one of the best ways to actively listen, with anyone, is to ask validating questions. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

lets say somebody wronged him, or he perceives that they did. there is an enormous difference, for a highly sensitive person especially, between "it sounds like it wasnt intentional" vs "do you have reason to believe it was intentional?". i drew that from this piece here, that really speaks to this sort of thing: https://www.washingtonpost.com/advice/2022/01/07/carolyn-hax-friend-offended-wrong/

thats one approach. it will be awkward and it will take practice, and it also may not be the best approach for your relationship or your partner. one approach i use with people is to ask them if they want me to listen, or if they want my advice. sometimes it just helps to ask someone how i can best support them.

people with bpd are highly needy, have difficulty identifying their needs, and tend to use dysfunctional ways to get them met. the trick, really, is to see what hes doing as "my loved one being needy". and then to identify the need. not to get caught up in all of the extra stuff surrounding it.