She's demanding an apology in front of the kids

[15years]

Hi all,

I really need some opinions on what to do with a situation involving my parents and my uBpdw.

First the story leading up to the situation:

Over a year ago my parents got involved with the issue of my so called sexual violence towards my wife. I'm not really comfortable saying it's false accusations so it makes it complicated (Some light bdsm stuff I thought was ok but also complaints about ordinary sex).

We invited them here to discuss our relationship, I wanted to do what I could to take responsibility for my mistakes but it never ends no matter how much I discuss it and go along with her ideas and take actions to work with myself. Now I'm not trying so hard anymore because I know it's not all about me and she'll never be satisfied no matter how much I regret what I've done. So my parents listened and tried to understand when she told them about how troublesome I am, that I freeze whenever she tries to talk to me, and that I have been sexually violent towards her (they were chocked and confused). It ended with them being told to leave because she didn't feel they were listening and responding correctly and dad said something clumsy, I don't think they knew what to say, it was quite awkward.

Now we have discussed the issue with my parents a few times since and last time was in november when she was upset about not being able to get through to me about me having been abusive, not just sexually btw (I tried to set boundaries and told her I don't agree that I have been abusive). She somehow thought my mom would contribute with a reality check in her favor. I tried to tell its pointless and will end with her feeling not validated, but she insisted. My mom kept repeating that she recommends couples therapy and when we were about to leave to go home my wife criticized mom for her response and my mom got upset and said that she has to set boundaries and that she won't think of herself as a bad person anymore. My dad had been in another room with our kids when we were talking and had not been part of the discussion but he heard that it was heating up so he approached my wife, put a hand on her shoulder and tried to gently shove her out of the house and told her to "get out". I intervened and told him not to do that.

After W made up with them and even hugged them before leaving. I think she was anxious about them being angry at her. Later as days and weeks passed she became more and more angry bout the incident and we haven't seen them since, not even on Christmas which upset my parents.

Now my wife told me she has an ultimatum if we're to meet them. They have to apologize in front of the kids and tell them that they are sorry for treating their mother badly. I have not yet told my parents this and don't think they will be that intrigued. W did something similar one or two years ago to her own mother, when my mother in law had screamed at her in front of the kids (i bet she was provoked but I'm not ruling out bpd for my mother in law either). She told her she had to say she's sorry she was mean to mommy. She did after a week or two of protests and it wasn't that dramatic and she has not demanded another apology since. Same with me, I had to apologize too in front of the kids for treating her badly and that issue is sort of settled.

So now is the third time she demands an apology from someone in front of the kids, she feels it is important because it shows the kids that people have to respect you/her.

What are your opinion on this, could it confuse the kids or could it even be as my wife says, good for them to see her "being respected"?

Our kids are 1 (soon 2) and 5 years old so I guess It only affects the five year-old. He already shows tendencies to walk on eggshells around her.

The event itself wouldn't be dramatic and the alternative is that we don't meet them soon or that we have another heated argument with them in front of the kids.

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[Notwendy]

Please don't involve the kids in this. This is triangulation into a third generation. The Karpman triangle dynamics help explain this. Your wife takes victim perspective, and enlists your parents into rescuer position- against you, the persecutor. Now she's doing this with the children and your parents.

There is really only one potential victim in this situation- a true victim does not have choices. All of you are adults and have choices, except for the children. The children rely on you to protect them. Involving them in your wife's interpersonal relationship problems is not appropriate for children, and it could potentially harm their relationship with their grandparents. The one year old won't fully understand- but children perceive stress and anger, and starting to involve them at this age - if you agree to this, this is likely to not be the only time. 

Probably what your mother suggested is that your marital issues are between you and your wife. What happened was that your mother was put in the position against her own son to defend your wife? How could a mother be objective in this situation? Sensing your mother's distress, your father stepped in to intervene because he's her husband.  Since your mother didn't "properly" take your wife's side in this, and your father did what he felt was necessary to help your mother, your parents are now "painted black".

There's a great line in a Dr. Phil show- it's not about BPD but another dysfunctional family where the disordered person's feelings ruled the dynamics. He said to them "you are all lost in the woods and looking at a disordered person to lead you out".

Your wife's feelings are running these triangles. However, only two people have the issues- you and your wife. IMHO, please don't enlist your parents into this- and yet still, they have the choice to not participate. The only family members who have no choice are the kids. Your wife's request- is basically for your parents to look bad in front of them. What have the kids done? Nothing. Is this for their benefit? No.

What's going on is that your wife wants to use the kids for her own emotional feelings- to make herself feel better somehow. They become "on her side".

My own perspective is being the child of a BPD mother and while I am an adult now, the triangle dynamics were present. My BPD mother sees people as either on her side or not her side and this has harmed relationships between family members. Rallying the kids to her side against your parents does not benefit the kids and these dynamics are not good for them. Your wife now is having you choose between her, your parents, and the well being of your kids- but it's the kids who need you to protect them.

[GaGrl]

Your parents need not be pulled into any relationship discussions with you and your wife -- your marriage is a private matter between the two of you (and a couples therapist, should you choose). And it should be private from your children also.

[alterK]

Hi 15. This is another angle, but maybe it will help. It’s now nearly a year ago--I realized my uBPDw and I were arguing about past events that each of us remembered entirely differently. This seems to be, at least somewhat, what's happening between you and your W.

These kind of “He said, She said” things are impossible to resolve. With me and my W, I began to suspect that they were smoke screens, familiar ways to hide real issues that neither of us knew how to approach productively.

So I started insisting, when she and I talked about problems, that we only use present and future tenses, never past tense. We could talk about things happening now, and what we wanted to happen in the future, but not about the past. To my surprise, she went along with this.

I know this is sometimes difficult for her, because past events are very much alive for her (in another post I described her as having the memory of an elephant, but not always an accurate elephant). In the course of any important discussion I usually have to remind her at least once, sometimes have to remind myself too.

Someone else put it more clearly. People with BPD remember events based on emotions. Since their extreme emotions are their most important reality, that is how their memories are shaped. Thus, endless arguments that can never be resolved by appealing to facts.

I think you are trapped in cycles of blame for events that your W sees differently from anyone else in the family. There’s no way to settle these things. No matter who apologizes for what, it will always happen again. You can’t de-escalate by going in the direction she wants. You can only try to go sideways, out of the conflict, and try to get her to go with you. You may even find, as I did, that she goes along.

And I agree with Notwendy and GaGirl. Keep your kids out of this, and your parents too. Getting them involved is at best nothing but a distraction. It can only hurt them, and it will do nothing to solve the problems between you and your wife.

[15years]

Wow, thank you for the insight. I totally agree with avoiding to involve kids and parents and I see this more clearly now than when I wrote this post. It's so hard though to remain sane when debating with her, but it has the same effect to agree with everything, I get totally lost and only recover a bit of my reality when I'm away from her.

The problem is I don't know how to resolve this without agreeing. I can tell her I won't allow my parents to apologize in front of the kids, but that means war and lots of accusations. And now she's in a calm state so to her it will seem like I'm starting drama out of nowhere.

[Cat Familiar]

How about ignoring her demand for an apology in front of kids?

[formflier]

The problem is I don't know how to resolve this without agreeing. 

So...are you suggesting that when you agree with your wife...your marital issues are resolved?

Maybe give a couple examples of issues that have been resolved through your agreeing and once we learn the lessons from those...we can apply them to unresolved areas.

I'll check back later today for your response. 

Focus on that Dr Phil line... 

Best,

FF

[15years]

So...are you suggesting that when you agree with your wife...your marital issues are resolved?

Maybe give a couple examples of issues that have been resolved through your agreeing and once we learn the lessons from those...we can apply them to unresolved areas.

I'll check back later today for your response. 

Focus on that Dr Phil line... 

Best,

FF

So nothing has been fully resolved by agreeing but specific issues have been replaced by others (usually worse every time). So the issue with my parents could be resolved and I could have them take care of the kids every other week like normal. And I could practice boundaries on other subjects. And I wouldn't have to ignore my sons questions about when we're going to meet his grandparents.

If I don't allow it then that subject is still not resolved and it has to be soon. But I still think that bringing the kids in is very dark and I will try to steer clear of that. I really believe she wants to resolve the issue with my parents so that may work in my favor.

Should I tell her that I think my parents acted the way they did for reasons I don't blame them for? Is it possible to resolve this without her getting an apology (oj so.mom actually apologized on whatsapp but she didn't like it).

I feel so much resentment for my wife at this point which makes me feel guilty. At the same time, not agreeing to her now really frightens me.

[alterK]

You have agreed with your W 1,000 times, and disagreed 1,000 times. What have you settled?

I hope this doesn't sound cruel, but painful as that routine is for both of you, don't you go through it because it is familiar, easier, safer than heading out in a different direction, which would feel like walking into an uncharted wilderness? 99% of the people here have done this routine (me included). We have to forgive ourselves and move on. In the end, there's no blame attached.

The decision between whether or not to agree with your W, whether or not to comply with her demand, is like deciding which of two doors to go through, when both of them lead into the same room. What's difficult and scary is figuring out a different way, finding a different door.

Maybe for you a place to begin would be to put your children first. You can probably see them more clearly than you can anyone else in your family. And they are most in need of your protection.

[15years]

Small update.

I told her I need to think about this and that it doesn't feel right involving the kids.

She says I'm a traitor and thinks this is the only right thing to do and she won't change her mind. This is about her finally standing up for herself. She asks me what my solution would be, just to sweep it under the rug? I have no idea, besides telling her she has bpd and getting professional help which isn't an alternative

I also told her I think it was a mistake to involve my parents to begin with

She said if we hadn't she would still be stuck in hell -> her relationship to me and the way I treat her I suppose (I honestly don't understand this).

I told her I needed a break from the discussion and actually went through with it, that was my first success because I was beginning to loose my strength. Soon we'll have to continue and I'm afraid what's awaiting.

My parents says they will do anything to not loose contact with me and the kids but they are very concerned.

How much is healthy for me to personally involve my parents, only me talking/venting to them I mean. I have never ever said a bad word about her to them before last spring.

[Notwendy]

I think it would help to learn about Karpman triangle dynamics.

An aspect of BPD is difficulty managing uncomfortable feelings. Your wife feels distressed- her own distress, but tends to project it to some external reason. Since that isn't the actual reason but she perceives it this way, the solution to the external reason doesn't actually solve the feelings for her. She thinks it does and makes it something you have to solve- which makes you the "rescuer" for her bad feelings. So, you don't want her to feel badly and you solve it.

As AlterK described- the solution may bring a temporary feeling of relief but then, there's another issue to solve- and you keep "solving" it but do any of these actions actually result in a happier situation? Did you actually solve the issue?

I think you know the answer to this. Instead of focusing on the immediate issue/solution needed in the moment, consider the pattern.

For these dynamics to exist, there needs to be a persecutor or other problem. Your parents are in persecutor position, and your wife wants you to "rescue" her from this situation. She is also demanding the children are used for her own emotional caretaking. This is using the children for her own feelings.

I observed this decades long pattern in my parents- my BPD mother would have some sort of need, and my father did all he could to solve that need for her. My BPD mother didn't like my father's family, ( it was a mutual dislike ). To her, people are either on her side or not her side, and she would put my father in a position to choose. Most often he deferred to her wishes to hopefully make her happier but it was not a long term solution to her feelings.

I guess it's up to you to decide what is dispensable to you according to what your wife wants. Your parents apparently as they can't see the kids now unless you now offer up your own children to meet her emotional needs. In these dynamics, you have been put in a position to choose. I understand the consequences of not choosing what she wants, but at some point you need to decide what's worth standing up for.

As to venting to your parents. Consider that this is triangle dynamics as well. When you "vent" to them, you are in victim position, emotionally, and venting to them helps you feel supported. Your wife is in persecutor position. If they "rescue" you by being supportive, your wife feels like a victim, then rallies you to be her rescuer- from them. Now to rescue her, she insists your parents "pay penance" to her in front of your children.

Of course your parents love you and care about you, but when you vent to them, you also put them in the situation to be the persecutor, and then, you are off the hook- your wife's feelings about you are directed to them and you then have the opportunity to be her rescuer, which is a bond between them.

These bonds are strong when two people are looking outward at a common "persecutor" rather than their own issues.

I know this is a difficult situation, but the marital issues are between you and your wife and enlisting either your parents or children is triangulation. For support, a good personal therapist can be objective to be both supportive and promote emotional growth for you, and not participate in these Karpman triangle dynamics.

[15years]

She says it would be good for the kids, they get to meet their grandparents and stop worrying that something's wrong. She wants them to say:
"I'm sorry we treated mommy badly, we like your mom very much"
And afterwards the kids can show them all the christmas presents they received and we can have a nice time together the six of us. Its weird but it could actually work out like that which makes me question why this would be a bad idea?
Now instead we're arguing and creating anxiety for the kids, so what's the point?

She has hinted though that I could speak up and apologize to her and my parents for my role in causing this conflict. That is I have abused her and have not taken responsibility.

[15years]

So I have seen people here saying "pick your battles". - is this a battle worth fighting? I don't know, it seems I'm causing more harm for the kids fighting then I would if I went along with her idea. But at the same time I'm curious what will happen if I do fight this battle.

And then there's the question why I stay in this marriage. I wish I would be brave and leave her.

[kells76]

15years, I sense the bind you're in. DH's ex used to do the same thing to him -- "the kids will sit with me and Stepdad and tell you how they feel like you're not really their family". It was about curating a triangle where she could always be the good, right, supportive victim. Interesting how it "required" the kids' presence. Big red flag.

So just prefacing this by saying No, the kids should not be involved. I agree with the other posters.

That being said...

How do you think your W would respond to some jiu-jitsu?

What if you offered to "do her plan" only if a neutral third party counselor were present?

Clearly W thinks there is a problem that merits an apology in front of multiple generations of family. So why not get a family counselor involved?

Again note this is more to "call her bluff".

Sorry have to run, but would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

[Notwendy]

Is this a battle worth fighting?

That's actually up to you. It depends on what you are willing to let go of to please your wife. I understand the situation as it's pretty much guaranteed difficulty to say no to my BPD mother and the only way I can manage this without constant conflict is to keep distance from her. But that's not your situation and it wasn't my father's.

So what's expendable? The kids? Are you OK with offering up the kids to soothe your wife's distress? This might sound harsh but it's a situation I observed in my family growing up, where my mother's feelings took precedence over anything, and anyone else. I think the Dr. Phil statement made an impression on me because it seemed that her feelings were the main focus.

So, if the kids are expendable, that's your choice.

The other is to take her hint that you need to make the public apology. First of all, I would not admit to your wife accusing you of abuse or any behaviors you have not done as that would incriminate you and be dishonest.

I am going to assume your wife thinks like my mother- even if she's not the same person and we can't assume anything- this is how the dynamics work with her.

First of all- talking about her to anyone else is a huge betrayal. She needs the image of being a good mother and a wonderful person and she's very responsive to public declarations of that. My Dad did this well and so do her relatives. They are always remarking on how amazing she is, complementing her to others. By contrast, saying anything negative to her or about her is extremely distressing to her. You may have turned to your parents in distress but in her world it was a huge betrayal and very hurtful.

"I'm sorry we treated mommy badly, we like your mom very much"

Do you see the request in this? She wants a public declaration from your parents that they were wrong about her and that they too think she's amazing.

Now look at the hint. The persecutor here is you. If she's given you a way to not involve the kids, then you have the option of being remorseful in front of your parents. (You may want to give your parents the heads up about what you plan to do so they are not confused but be careful about her finding this out and also what you say to them-make this about you- Mom, Dad, my wife's upset about me talking to you, so I want to try to make this right so we can reconcile). One thing I have learned when confronting my mother is to make it about me- but how to honestly do this?

What are you sorry about. Well for one, involving your parents. So an apology in front of them would be " I am sorry that I caused this conflict in the family. I have learned a lot from it. I love my wife very much ( insert some compliments here) and I want us all to get along. Then your parents can chime in with some sort of "we want this too and wish to have a reconciliation" and some sort of validating statement to your wife.

Validation is key here. She wants validation. The issue is to validate what you can and not the invalid ( like her saying you are being abusive ), complement what you can as well- surely she has good attributes too. Start by validating her feelings about this- "I see you are feeling I did something hurtful to you and I'd like to apologize in front of my parents" and then let her vent her feelings.

I am guessing the need is for a public affirmation of  your wife in front of your parents then this might be acceptable. I hope so. But this kind of thing is a pattern, not a single incident. Saying anything negative about my mother to anyone is felt as extremely hurtful to her and so it's best you speak to a therapist rather than people in your circle.

[Notwendy]

I have learned that my BPD mother needs a lot of validation and affirmation. I think also this is because of a poor self image and possibly shame for some of her behavior. I have also seen where she has felt invalidated by me, not because I intended it but that things like suggestions feel invalidating to her. This is different from walking on eggshells out of fear. It's more about staying aware that this is a difficult issue for her. I think your wife's main concern is that you disclosed her behavior to your parents, and now- to her, this needs to be reconciled by you, and hopefully keeping the kids out of this.

[15years]

My five year-old son knows that his mother is needy, and he tends to prefer me to her and she has told him that we have rules in the family that you have to also be nice to mom, not just dad. She also has told him that if he comes to our bed at night he has to sleep in between us and not only by my side. She seldom mention it if he breaks this rule but I get really nervous and try to move him to the middle. This started to spiral on his 4th birthday, when he told me he loved me and said nothing to her.

This also is an example where she thinks she is teaching him to respect others and not be a spoiled brat, she really hates brats.

He has learned this well and often tries to please her. Sometimes she says to him lovingly that he doesn't have to worry.

I realize I'm betraying my kids if I continue like this.

And yes she has lots of great attributes which makes this so hard.

Thank you everyone for your great advice, I'll try to write a more direct answer to all replys tomorrow when I'm at work (thank god I don't have to work from home). It's been a long extended weekend.

[formflier]

I realize I'm betraying my kids if I continue like this.

 

Hey...there is another poster that I'm going to steal a line from.

"Words create worlds"   It seems like really powerful advice and I think you could benefit from finding a different word than "betrayal".

No doubt it is a difficult situation and many times with BPD there are no good options...no options that you and others "enjoy".

That's a long way from "betrayal".

Please be kind to yourself!

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

What I have read is that parents with PD's see children as extensions of themselves rather than individual unique people with their own ideas and wants. For parents, we see our role as meeting a child's needs, not the other way around. Someone with a PD may meet the child's basic needs ( food, clothing, etc) and some other needs but also may perceive the child as needing to meet their needs.

Your son, at age, 5, seems to have already perceived that he has a role in soothing his mother's feelings. There's a boundary between being empathetic and kind, and feeling responsible for someone else's feelings.

I will share my own observations with my kids and my BPD mom, but I will warn you that my setting boundaries on her interactions with my own children resulted in her being angry at me and rallying my father to her side- this damaged the relationship between us.

Your thread may be a different relationship but the triangle pattern is similar. You are also in a different situation with wanting an intact marriage and small children and you can not have boundaries on your wife's interactions with her children. On your part, it may be better to reduce the drama by working on your part in it.

What I noticed with my kids was their own natural boundaries. We talk a lot about boundaries here and how people with BPD and their partners tend to have poor boundaries. For me, the poor boundaries were a part of growing up with a BPD mom- I was not allowed to stand up for myself, and was expected to think all was normal in my house when it was clearly not, and so I learned to ignore my own perceptions and try to please people who may not be so nice to me in return- because these were the "rules" I grew up with.

But my kids didn't, and so they also preferred my father over my mother and sometimes felt uncomfortable with her requests. I knew she would not be directly harmful to them, but to her, she wanted them to meet her needs and sometimes this made them uneasy. I wanted them to keep these boundaries. These are the boundaries that might alert them that someone isn't acting in their best interests.

On your wife's part, it surely is disturbing that a child prefers his father. What I found is that it can change as a child grows up, sometimes the child wants Daddy, sometimes they want Mommy but they still love both parents. Clearly your son still wants to please his mother. Over time, kids can make us feel uncomfortable, and teens can be a challenge, but it's our job to manage our own feelings. Children do need to be taught appropriate behavior- and empathy can be fostered- but so should their natural boundaries be respected.

I agree with FF- you are in a difficult situation. You want your marriage and you have to look out for the best interest of your kids. I don't think it's a perfect situation- and perhaps the best any parent can do is their best effort with child rearing. It isn't a zero sum with my father and the good he did for us far outweighs the dysfunction we grew up with. We spent a lot of one on one time with him, he encouraged our education, he provided for us.

You aren't betraying your children. They still have the basics they need. What you can do is work on your part of the dysfunction. Often it's what they see that influences them. If you walk on eggshells, they will see that. If you engage in dysfunction, they can see that. But again, as FF says- don't be hard on yourself. There is a learning curve to this and it's one step at a time ( and sometimes backwards but you then try again). You have just begun to be aware of how the Karpman triangle works and how you are participating in triangulation. A first step can be to take this conflict out of the triangles and make it between you and your wife, and you can make an apology in front of your parents, but not the kids if possible. If this isn't possible- then still being aware to not vent to parents or kids may be the step you can take. Still, I think it's important to be able to speak to someone, and a qualified therapist can fill that role.

[15years]

Now I'm a little unsure, would you consider talking/venting to my parents without her knowledge a bad thing also?

I'm very grateful to all your replys on this post and the effort you put in to support me.

[Notwendy]

Take that out of any judgment- good or bad.

Instead- ask yourself- did this increase or decrease the drama between me and my wife, my wife and my parents?

How could venting to my parents be part of Karpman triangle dynamics?

Is there a better way to get support from someone other than my parents?

Venting to your parents is also different from informing them and not pretending all is OK with your wife, because pretending isn't being truthful either.

One situation with me is that my parents established that we need to act as if all is normal, nothing is wrong with my mother. Because of this, I concluded several things erroneously as a child/teen

She behaved like this because she must hate me.
She blames me for the issues so it must be my fault.
If only I was good enough, she might love me.
And as a teen, I didn't like her much either.

My father's family didn't understand her behavior either. To be fair, nobody knew much about BPD or talked about mental illness in their era in the beginning.

I think it's important that your parents have some knowledge about the situation, as they probably wonder and may come to erroneous and even more harmful assumptions. I think it would have helped me at one point if I knew my mother acted like she did due to a mental illness rather than because she hates me or her behavior is my fault. Your kids are far too young to have this discussion. I think this is something that should be guided by a therapist to keep it from being triangulation. Your parents are adults and can understand when given factual information.

I think it's good to consider the line between informing and triangulation when you speak about this to your parents.

[15years]

I'm seing a mental health professional focused on family violence and before that someone else and before that a professional focused on sexuality issues (i was desperate to fix myself somehow, to find a way to sincerely ask for her forgiveness).

I'm not from the U.S. so I'm not familiar with how it works there, but in my country we have a lot of free state funded services and so far all this has been free of charge, but there is a limit to how long you can visit these and I may have to consider therapy soon which isn't totally free but still partially state funded if fulfilling some requirements.

Talking to my parents still was a breakthrough because I always protected my wife from any bad reputation and I have become very isolated. I do feel that I would want a neutral path forward where I can tell them things but not use them as therapists. And for that matter I think I know more than them and they are not a great resource for personality disorder knowledge even though they can bring in an outside perspective.

Also there's a thought in the back of my head that if I search too much support from the outside it means I'm looking for someone else to do my job. This is also something my wife has criticized me for.

[Notwendy]

A qualified therapist will not be "doing the work for you". It's different from venting. He or she is interested in promoting your own self growth, and so will be a combination of an empathetic person to talk to and prompt you to areas where you can work on your part in this, any co-dependent traits or enabling behavior.

Your wife will think what she thinks. It's about choosing who to "lead" you when you are in the woods- focus on your own feelings and direction, or follow her emotions.

[15years]

How about ignoring her demand for an apology in front of kids?

I didn't respond to this but my mind keeps returning to this reply. I don't know if I'll be able to ignore her this time but I'll remember this. It's so simple and not codependent.

Thank you!

[15years]

A qualified therapist will not be "doing the work for you". It's different from venting. He or she is interested in promoting your own self growth, and so will be a combination of an empathetic person to talk to and prompt you to areas where you can work on your part in this, any co-dependent traits or enabling behavior.

Your wife will think what she thinks. It's about choosing who to "lead" you when you are in the woods- focus on your own feelings and direction, or follow her emotions.

Thank you Notwendy, your advice has been great!

[15years]

Hey...there is another poster that I'm going to steal a line from.

"Words create worlds"   It seems like really powerful advice and I think you could benefit from finding a different word than "betrayal".

No doubt it is a difficult situation and many times with BPD there are no good options...no options that you and others "enjoy".

That's a long way from "betrayal".

Please be kind to yourself!

Best,

FF

Thank you for your kind words FF.