Fine when I do as I'm 'told' but not if I don't?

[orders4946]

Hi everyone,

I have been lurking on this wonderful site for a number of weeks.  I have yet to find anything that compares to this site despite being an avid contributor to many other discussion forums - the knowledge and thoughtfulness in the threads I have seen is astounding.  Thank you so much to everyone that has contributed.

In terms of my background I am a 37m married to a 38f for 6 years (together for 10) with two children aged 3 and 1.  I suspect my wife has moderate BPD and NPD tendencies however this is undiagnosed.  My wife has only ever sought counselling for anxiety, depression and eating disorders and this was when she was in her 20s.

I am hoping someone might be so kind as to share their experiences with me on something that has been bothering me for a while.  Does anyone feel like things are fine when we follow the wishes of our SO and the PD tendencies only show when we act/think independently from those wishes?

My relationship with my W has evolved to a point where I feel like a 'passenger' in our life - something that was compounded by the various lockdowns of the past 2 years and our isolation/reduced social life as a result of her health anxiety (and worries about contracting COVID).  

My general feeling is that I do everything 'her way', and if I do that then our life is good.  My wife is fun, exciting and a wonderful mother.  However if I do not do things her way, or do things that she does not approve of, we argue intensely and I become so emotionally exhausted that I give up and take the path of least resistance.  This is not so bad most of the time as I am fairly easy-going but it has become a problem when I think she is being unreasonable - often the things she disapproves of make no sense to me.  She has also developed a hatred for my family (as a result of an incident which I believe she has blown out of proportion) and it has led to me becoming alienated from them - I can only speak to them secretly when I am alone (which is not often).  My wife is very intelligent, quick-minded, articulate and has a dominant personality so I often feel like I am defeated in arguments when I try to be more assertive.  I no longer make any plans or provide any suggestions for fear of criticism and I feel like an empty shell with no autonomy in our life.  These issues have led to me becoming frustrated and resentful and I am thinking of leaving our marriage to escape her 'control' (I would have left long before now were it not for our beautiful children).

Can anyone empathise with my feelings and have any pertinent experiences they could share?

Many thanks in advance

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

I'm glad you are posting and I think we can help.

Can you give us an example or two about a time when you "tried to escape" her control, she freaked...and you eventually got back in line.

If there are examples where you defied her and "held your position" would love to listen to those.

This can get better...

Best,

FF

[Seeleygirl]

if I do not do things her way, or do things that she does not approve of, we argue intensely

Hi orders. I’m sorry you are going through this. I can totally relate. My partner with BPD has intense control issues. Things have to be done exactly his way or he completely stresses out and gets angry. Often the supposed infractions are extremely slight wrong movements or not reacting to his command within a fraction of a second (for some reason his sense of time when his anxiety is up is completely off). Ironically he also accuses me of never listening to him and always wanting to do things my way when this is absolutely not the case. I almost always bow to the way he wants to do things even if I think it’s a bad idea because anything I say at times like this (even if it’s just a suggestion meant to help) is seen as me trying to tell him what to do. For my pwBPD this stems from the fact that he works in a family business and spent the first 35yrs of his life being told what to do by his father who also had uBPD. So I think the reason they are like this (or at least my partner is) stems from the fact that when he was young he felt he had absolutely no control over his life. Even now he tells me he feels that way when he absolutely has full control over everything he does every day. What I think he really means when he says that is that he can’t control a lot of events in his life (and doesn’t seem capable of understanding that nobody can because I’ve tried this route and he gets upset thinking that I’m belittling his feelings).  So although I can understand why he is particularly sensitive to thinking he is being told what to do, it doesn’t make it any easier to get through. I did find at one point that phrasing can help a bit. One time after blowing up at me he admitted that the phrase “do you want to…? (do this now or whatever suggestion you’re trying to make) is the exact phrasing his dad used when he was telling him what to do. So although to me it was a completely harmless phrase that I was in fact asking his opinion with, he took it as a backhanded, thinly veiled passive aggressive way to get him to do what I wanted (which was absolutely not my intention!). I have gotten some success from changing my phrasing so that he doesn’t take my intention wrong, but am completely at a loss how to manage his need to absolutely do things his way and then accuse me of being the one who is always telling him what to do. I know I’m not supposed to do this but I’ve been taking little victories in scenarios where his anxiety isn’t high and he’s insisting on doing something his way, I jokingly say something like “jeez and you accuse me of always wanting to do things my way”. You have to make sure their anxiety is not up when you do this though! At least I’m slowly making him aware of some of the times he does it if not all. Maybe it will begin to sink in that he does it? I don’t know. I’m not sure if it is going to make any difference whatsoever but I figure it’s worth a shot. So far he hasn’t taken it too badly although he’s said “I was just giving you a taste of your own medicine!”

[thankful person]

Orders, welcome to this amazing group! Yes absolutely, this is how my relationship used to work. If I did everything to please my wife then things could remain much calmer. But then it became that she was controlling every aspect of my life. And still neither of us was happy. And I could never quite get things right. Have you read, “stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist”? It’s highly recommended. There is also one about “raising resilient children with a borderline or narcissist “ by the same people, ours are very little too so I’m hoping I can really help them by being prepared while they’re still young. I have started challenging the rules and setting boundaries. Some are harder than others but I think it’s the first ones that are the hardest in a way. Good luck with the journey. It’s very liberating to discover that you can make changes to the relationship all on your own, even without your wife’s agreement that there is a problem and she needs to help change things..
FF is right that things can get better. Of course I’m still struggling a few months in, but he has watched and supported much improvement in my own relationship. I always say it but I feel so blessed to have found this amazing page where people understand and advise… when we all used to think we were trapped forever with no one to talk to…
Seeley girl I relate to your story as well. Funny anecdote, when I was working in pre school there was a student teacher there and one day the manager said to her, “do you want to sweep the floor?” And the student said, “no”! The manager was so taken aback she didn’t even make her do it!

[Diddle]

Orders 

This is not so bad most of the time as I am fairly easy-going but it has become a problem when I think she is being unreasonable - often the things she disapproves of make no sense to me.  She has also developed a hatred for my family (as a result of an incident which I believe she has blown out of proportion) and it has led to me becoming alienated from them - I can only speak to them secretly when I am alone (which is not often).  My wife is very intelligent, quick-minded, articulate and has a dominant personality so I often feel like I am defeated in arguments when I try to be more assertive.  I no longer make any plans or provide any suggestions for fear of criticism and I feel like an empty shell with no autonomy in our life.  These issues have led to me becoming frustrated and resentful and I am thinking of leaving our marriage to escape her 'control' (I would have left long before now were it not for our beautiful children).

I remember finding this forum a year ago and could have written the paragraph above for myself. I was defeated, I had to make plans as I am the main caregiver for our 3 children, but when it came to making plans for just me, that was a big no no. BPD is so subtly manipulative though, my hwBPD never said don't go out. The control was concealed in messages while I was out, about how he was struggling at home, with the kids, the food shop delivery, the fact he needs cheese for 3 days time, but he must go now and me being out is a big inconvenience. Or he would accuse me of cheating. So I'd stay home for a quiet life, and of course, we always have cheese

I received responses on here from people carefully asking me questions about me, how I stood up for myself, telling me I needed boundaries, how doing that is the only way to live a life alongside BPD. 
I would read the responses and after 20 yrs of being told your best isn't good enough, I thought they were suggesting the impossible. I feared that standing up for myself would be the worst thing for our children, who had seen enough falling out.

I was wrong, in the last 12 months I have set some boundaries, said no to things I don't want to do, created a social life where despite still feeling fearful it could end in drama, I am determined to not waste any more years on BPD. Our children are old enough now, to understand their dads unreasonableness, and right from wrong, and can see that he is often wrong and when he is, I will  stand up for them and me, in a polite but firm way.
I don't think it changes my husbands reactions or thoughts going down the wrong path, but I feel empowered and our children know that they should stand up for themselves if they know they're right, which anyone, its all about how you go about it, rather than letting someone else control you.
Particularly important in our house right now, with 3 teenagers.

[Seeleygirl]

in the last 12 months I have set some boundaries, said no to things I don't want to do,

Hi Diddle,
Could you give some examples on how you went about saying no? My pwBPD is already under the impression that I “never listen to him” even though I always do things exactly how he wants and he doesn’t seem to have any idea of how controlling he is. He feels like it’s the other way around. I have only ever said no to him twice recently and both of them were because they were very dangerous situations and I think down deep he knew this so he never bothered me about it besides having a little tantrum at the time. Every other time I try to set boundaries it is a major catastrophe and blow up even though I am calm. He only sees it as me trying to manipulate or change him when all I’m asking for is the same basic respect that he demands from us. I’d love to know what approach worked for you. Thanks!

[formflier]

  Every other time I try to set boundaries it is a major catastrophe and blow up even though I am calm. He only sees it as me trying to manipulate or change him when all I’m asking for is the same basic respect that he demands from us. I’d love to know what approach worked for you. Thanks!

Hey Seeleygirl.  Might be best to start a new thread about your attempts and results.

I will quickly remind you that boundaries go both ways.  Your boundaries protect you...they don't control him (although he may feel controlled)...you don't judge success of your boundary based on someones else's reaction to it.

He gets to control his reaction.

You get to control you.

That's the essence of boundaries.

Now...details matter, so that's why I suggest another thread.

Best,

FF