S4 said he was protecting me from W

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Today during a heated argument W screamed at me to get out.  As I was leaving S4 ran after me.  I asked him what was wrong.  He said he was coming with me to protect me in case W hits me in the back.  I reassured him that daddy would be OK, and he told me that he wanted to give me a hug and tell me he loved me.  He is 4 years old.

He also says somtimes he wants people to disappear or die, has once said he wanted to die, will somtimes bang his head on the wall, hit himself or scratch himself. 

I told W that I was very alarmed by this, but she discounted it and claimed I was being irrational for being hung up on this and that kids say things to manipulate and for attention.  W claims she has told his T(yes he is 4 and has a T) and her own T about this and both told her that S4 doesnt show the signs of a kid being affected by a violent household.

I decided today to start a private email conversation between me and his T independent of W.  I dont know if this was the right thing to do or not - feels weird going behind Ws back but I am extremely concerned. 

I havent had a chance to talk to any Ls yet due to holidays and busy schedules.  I have been sleeping in the spare room for the last month and working from the office most days.  That has given me desperately needed space and lowered my stress level a little.  Trying to formulate plans on how we can have seperate residences because I want to have something ready to go before I take any legal actions.

[maxsterling]

Today during a heated argument W screamed at me to get out.  As I was leaving S4 ran after me.  I asked him what was wrong.  He said he was coming with me to protect me in case W hits me in the back.  I reassured him that daddy would be OK, and he told me that he wanted to give me a hug and tell me he loved me.  He is 4 years old.

He also says somtimes he wants people to disappear or die, has once said he wanted to die, will somtimes bang his head on the wall, hit himself or scratch himself. 

I told W that I was very alarmed by this, but she discounted it and claimed I was being irrational for being hung up on this and that kids say things to manipulate and for attention.  W claims she has told his T(yes he is 4 and has a T) and her own T about this and both told her that S4 doesnt show the signs of a kid being affected by a violent household.

I decided today to start a private email conversation between me and his T independent of W.  I dont know if this was the right thing to do or not - feels weird going behind Ws back but I am extremely concerned. 

I havent had a chance to talk to any Ls yet due to holidays and busy schedules.  I have been sleeping in the spare room for the last month and working from the office most days.  That has given me desperately needed space and lowered my stress level a little.  Trying to formulate plans on how we can have seperate residences because I want to have something ready to go before I take any legal actions.

[BigOof]

Sounds like you're really scared of your wife and what she'll do if you take legal action?

Do you have a line at which you'll take legal action if she crosses?

It takes two to tango. What was the argument about? Are you stuck in a conflict cycle?

[maxsterling]

I'm mostly scared of suicide if I take legal action without something in place before.  She has attempted a few times before.  I am also scared of emotional stress if I take action without one of us having a long term place to stay.  Seperate rooms is not enough.  She has woken me up at 2am to scream at me several times before.

Lines that lead to quick legal action from me:  1) if she moves out 2) anything that is criminal.  Most other "lines" I have (violence, destruction of property) fall under category 2.  Badically if she does something against me or the kids that she can get arrested for.  Some of the things she has done are in the gray area at this point.

As for what the argument was about...beats me.  It was one of those completely illogical things that was a trap from the start.  She was upset because I wanted to take 45 mins to fix a kitchen cabinet rather than discuss re-arranging the kids' furniture.  But the furnitue discussion was already DOA because she had already decided we didnt have money, floor space, or didnt want to go into a store because of Covid.  Basically she wanted to hold me hostage while she complained about having no solutions and then complained and verbally insulted me for having no solutions she liked.  When i suggested we shelve the topic in order to get things done or feed the kids lunch, she blew up.  But there was no option...the kids were complaing and I am not going to neglect them.

[BigOof]

Men go to prison, women go into the mental health system. I doubt she'll get arrested or go to jail.

Suicide. That's a real concern.

Life can be so much better. Do you remember when life was good? When you didn't have to deal with all this drama? Don't you want to get back there?

[kells76]

maxsterling, I think it was when you were away from the boards for a bit that member ventak joined. He also has young twins, I think they're 3 or 4 now, and his BPDw attacked him one night while be was holding the kids. He escaped to a neighbors house and she was arrested, but if I remember correctly the threat to him from law enforcement was -- if you don't protect your kids from her, you're also in trouble and they could go to foster care. The kids were still with him last time I checked and had supervised visits with their mom. So that is less to "scare" and more to add some nuanced info to your planning -- that your role as the only adult in the marriage who can prioritize protecting the kids is a huge and meaningful one.

Planning for separate living makes sense, as "different rooms in the same house" is a meaningless boundary to someone with BPD. Again, if you have time, check out ventak's posts, as he was wondering the same thing.

Contacting the kids' T on your own is a wise move, though I understand it's sad that you and your W aren't on the same page about the kids. I don't believe your W is telling the truth about what a real T would say about a 4YO saying he wants to die. I think your W may have shame and denial about her impact on the kids and so will spin what was said (if anything was even said) to make it sound "fine" which it is not.

I hope you get some good feedback from the T and are able to reach out to a L soon.

Glad you are still posting here,

kells76

[maxsterling]

kells - sounds like I should look up those threads.  It's been a little bit of a concern of mine that if/when legal gets involved someone will ask me why I did not do anything at points x, y & z.   Sometimes I need reminders that this is bad, instead of letting W convince me that it's me.  W is pretty good at convincing me that she has had her T for years and the T has never intervened with things that W has told her, therefore things must not be as bad as I see them. 

W had a 2nd T until a few months ago, when the 2nd T started demanding that W be more accountable (she was telling T about things that the T felt needed direct intervention).  W quit that T, and I am somewhat surprised that we weren't visited by social workers.  I need to remember things like that, and the previous employers, friends, and family that had concerns.

Oof - yeah, I remember those happy times.  I sometimes think that if she moved or just went out of town for two weeks how much I would get done in that time and how much my health would improve.  Even today while I was out I went on two hikes - and by the end was convinced my eyesight had improved. 

[ForeverDad]

It's so very hard to think of all the right things to do when an incident arises.  Next time... would it be possible to take your child with you?  For example, you could take him to the park, to a restaurant or some other activity or errand until she cools down or you can decide what else to do.

That doesn't always work.  I tried that years ago and my then-spouse jumped piggy-back on me so I couldn't go out the door.  So even the best laid plans may not work out, but do have an assortment of scenarios worked out in your head, perhaps even mentally rehearsed, so you don't have to figure out what to do in the moment.

[GaGrl]

How much does your twins' T know about the degree of your wife's mental illness? Is he/she aware of prior inpatient hospitalizations? Can you tell the T about the 2 AM screaming, etc. and your fear of her suicide should you separate?

Your son's dark thoughts and verbal expressions could bear more weight with context from you.

[maxsterling]

I had a productive and validating conversation with the twins' T this afternoon.  I am very glad I reached out, and feel confident that it was the right thing to do.  T is very aware of Ws struggles, and was quick to label what has been going on as "domestic violence".  That alone was validating.  She asked how often things like this were happening, and I said nearly every weekend to the point that I dread Fridays.  She and I discussed W and I making weekend itineraries midweek that include separate activities so there is space during the weekend. 

I feel good with my boundary yesterday of being firm with W about the seriousness of S4s words and actions, and that I did not wish to discuss anything else.  W said then she could not live with me and would go stay with this woman she just met until she figured something out.  A big part of me was hoping she would follow through.  I was a little disappointed when she talked to her T and decided to stay. 

I just need to keep reassuring myself that I am not causing this chaos and cannot fix it for her.   

[Notwendy]

You didn't cause her mental disorder and you can't fix it.

I don't think any boundaries on her actions are effective. A boundary is not something you place on someone else. Talking to her about the seriousness of how these issues affect the children isn't a boundary because you are trying to change her behavior. If this worked it would have already. You know it doesn't.

A boundary is a reflection of your values. Your bottom line whatever that may be. Someone can do whatever they do. Your boundary is your response to that. It's what you will tolerate and what you won't- no matter what the "cost" to you is.

BPD is a spectrum disorder and some situations are more manageable than others. People also have different boundaries for what they will tolerate. This is why we don't tell posters to stay or leave- each situation is different.  You can not control your wife's behavior- only your own actions and responses to it.

[maxsterling]

I don't think any boundaries on her actions are effective. A boundary is not something you place on someone else. Talking to her about the seriousness of how these issues affect the children isn't a boundary because you are trying to change her behavior. If this worked it would have already. You know it doesn't.

My W interprets any boundary as a punishment on on her and reacts explosively.  The boundary is what turns a bad argument into a full blown dysregulation.  So a boundary might be that I am not going to stay in the same room with a person who is cursing at me and calling me names.  She sees me saying "no" as an attempt to control her behavior.  I am to the point where I just leave, quit caring how it affects her, and worry about myself.  So I leave and spend a few hours by myself, do some self care (I went on 3 hikes the other day!) and am feeling much less guilty about not engaging in her text-bombing.  I am not obligated to respond.  I've learned the end result is always the same, no matter what action I take.  So if I leave after a  minute of her verbal abuse or try and diffuse things for an hour, the end result is always a dysregulation and me leaving.  Might as well leave sooner than later.  Same goes with the text bombs.  She is going to be mad/abusive for a certain period of time no matter what I say or do.  I am learning to just not respond so that way I don't waste my self care time engaging with her.  The end result is the same.  I either engage for 3 hours and wear myself out, or just put my phone away for 3 hours and let her be angry all by herself.

[maxsterling]

I just realized my dad took a similar approach to my mom.  He knew when my mom was mad about something and ready to explode, and learned to trigger it sooner rather than later so that way my mom would get mad and storm off for a few hours and leave him in peace to get some things done.  He told me this when I was a teenager.  Is my mom BPD?  She definitely has issues but if she is BPD she is pretty low on the spectrum.  But she would get overwhelmed by emotions towards my dad every few months for reasons that did not make logical sense.  One time it was my mom complaining the potato peeler was dull, and my dad finding a sharper one in the drawer and handing it to her.  I think she left the house for an entire day over that one.  Another time she didn't talk to my dad for a week because she locked herself out of the house, and couldn't reach my dad at work.  That was the early 1970s, when many people didn't have phones at their desks.  So my dad learned that there were situations with my mom that had nothing to do with him that he could not diffuse, so he learned to just "set off the bomb" and enjoy the peace and quiet while my mom went somewhere to cool down.  I am starting to recognize that when she is nagging me and complaining about me all morning, I want her to get to level 10 because I actually enjoy leaving and spending time by myself.

[Cat Familiar]

How do you feel with this new awareness that you’re repeating a family pattern?

[Notwendy]

I think walking away is a good idea for you, but what is happening with the kids when you do that?,

When we were younger, Dad would take us with him. Sometimes we'd go on long drives. We'd also go out to eat. There was a stretch of time when we went out to dinner with just Dad every night. We did wonder why our friends ate at home -usually a dinner that their mom cooked, but it probably was better that we were not around my mother if she was in one of her bad moods.

Weekends- Dad took us away all day during the weekends. Mom stayed home. We had some great adventures with Dad- the Zoo, the park, the museum. Surely he needed time to himself but weekends were away from her.

I am glad he took us with him. Once we were old enough to not need adult supervision, Dad did walk off on his own  but then we had to deal with mom- and whatever she did- we experienced all of it and she is extremely disordered and we saw all of it.

Its great that you disengage, but are the kids really OK? One poster suggests taking them with you.

Whether or not your mother has BPD, there's a pattern in your family of how to manage conflicts. We learn this from our parents. Often we choose someone who fits a familiar pattern to us. Sometimes it's BPD, sometimes it's another disorder, and sometimes it's the example of conflict management we grew up with. Once aware of this, we can learn new skills, but we can not fix BPD.

[ForeverDad]

My W interprets any boundary as a punishment on her and reacts explosively.

I believe you're describing extinction bursts.  Set a boundary and the person overreacts and tries to pressure you to retreat back to prior patterns.  In time the boundary should become the new normal... or not.

Whether or not your mother has BPD, there's a pattern in your family of how to manage conflicts. We learn this from our parents. Often we choose someone who fits a familiar pattern to us. Sometimes it's BPD, sometimes it's another disorder, and sometimes it's the example of conflict management we grew up with. Once aware of this, we can learn new skills, but we can not fix BPD.

It goes both ways.  On the flip side of the coin, a person who is disordered may choose a partner from among those who are more compliant or clueless.  It could be that the reason your relationship with your spouse started was because you were accommodating, a Nice Guy and clueless of the red flags of trouble ahead.