Re: Potential reconciliation and recycle. Two ideas. Stupid or smart?

[WhatToDo47]

Hi,

You can see my previous posts for the full story. Short version, wife left in September, filed for divorce in December, still haven't been served. Lately, has been nicer and even apologized for leaving. Seems like she's going to try and come back. Of note, her mom (who also has BPD/NPD and who has a lot of influence on my wife) left her dad for a period of time before they had kids, it was a one time thing and now they are still married. I think a lot of this was my wife's mom putting ideas in my wife's head and egging her on to do this.

The 2 ideas, which I will only bring up if she asks to come back:

1.) Return is conditional on a post-nuptial agreement. This would protect me if she leaves again, and we already have lawyers anyways. I could frame this as protecting us both and the relationships.

2.) Instead of the first step being her returning, I would first suggest that I go visit there and we meet in a public place, such as going out to dinner. This would reduce the risk of her just showing up and give me a chance to see if she's sincere.

Yes, I know she's likely to repeat these patterns forever, and yes I know that it's illogical to even want to entertain the idea of reconciling. I guess I'm trying to gauge her intentions, and what amount of BPD craziness I would be required to radically accept in order to continue a relationship.

[maxsterling]

Remind me - what were the circumstances when she left?  Did she go with planning and intention, or just "heat of the moment"?  At the time, did she tell you that she was leaving permanently, or just needing space or time to "cool off"?  Did she move her stuff out, or just a suitcase?

I think this makes a difference as to her current intent.  My W "moved out" twice.  The first was before we were married and a few months after she moved in.  She "moved out" in a heat of the moment sort of thing to go stay with a friend.  I think there was some discussion of her moving out for the long term and staying with a friend.  I can't remember how long she was gone, but it was less than two weeks.  I also don't remember if she asked to come back or I asked her,  but we did meet out for dinner first. 

The second time was a few weeks after our wedding, and after a stint in a mental health hospital following a suicide attempt.  She bought a plane ticket and decided to go visit a friend.  It was somewhat open ended - there was talk about when/if she would come back.  She was gone about a month.  She had some kind of falling out with the friend and came back.  When she got back she eagerly looked for a job for the point of having her own income. 

Really here you should focus less on figuring out her intent and more on what you want.  It is much easier to say "no" now than it is when she is back in the house.  Just imagine, 3 months from now she is back in your house, and things have gone south again with her raging and abusing you.  Then what do you do?  Put up with it?  Force her out? Leave yourself?  This is the dilemma I am facing now.  If my wife had been staying out of the house for a few months I would be working at ways to make it permanent.  Why?  because I have learned my lesson too many times about what happens after I take her back.  Nothing changes, and within week/months I am dealing with the same all over again, this time feeling worse about it.

[WhatToDo47]

Thank you Maxsterling, as always. Your insight and experience helps so much, especially because I see many similarities between our wives.

Quick recap of her leaving:

We had planned on going to home state for 4 days in a few weeks. She got really stressed one morning and said she wanted to go early and stay with her parents. Me not knowing about BPD, I tried to talk her down, which had worked about 6 months earlier when she wanted to pack up and leave while I was at work. That time, she had packed us both a suitcase and decided not to go after talking to me and her therapist. Both times were a week or so before a planned trip there.

The time she did leave, it was very impulsive. She said she would return, that she's not divorcing me, and that I didn't need to worry, she just needed some time with her family and to cool down. We bought her a plane ticket for the next day (I was hoping that would give her time to reconsider). The next morning, I drove her to the airport and she flew back. She packed only a small suitcase and brought our dog (who used to be her service dog but is now ironically mine for the PTSD she has caused).

Once she was back in home state, she told me again that she was just overwhelmed, and that she would meet up with me when I came for the planned trip and we would fly back together, and even made some plans for how to improve the relationship and her health when we returned. We texted/spoke during this time. It was tense, but okay. I now realize I was very invalidating about all of it and probably just made the dysregulation worse.

We were supposed to go out to dinner the night I landed and stay for 4 days at my grandparents' house. Instead, I showed up at her parents' to take her to dinner and she told me that she would not be coming back, she commanded me to divorce her, to take the dog, and leave. The following weekend, she flew to current state with her parents, they packed up her things, and she drove back to home state in her car.

I tried for about a month to get her to reconsider, but she proceeded to hire a lawyer, and eventually she told me not to contact her except about the "imminent divorce." Her sister's husband also warned me not to contact her. At this point, she blocked me on her phone and contact ceased.

About a month later, I hadn't heard anything, so I texted asking what the status is. I was no longer blocked, and she told me that I would hear from her lawyer in about 2 weeks. The following week, she repeatedly called my phone until I answered and told me she was just calling to "check in." I found out indirectly that she filed for divorce a few days before this calling session, but I still haven't been served (almost 2 months now). Since then, she has been chummy and has been finding some excuse to call or text almost every day, including claiming that she was unknowingly pregnant with our child when she went back and had a miscarrage (which I don't really believe because she has had many of these "miscarranges" over the years, which the doctors usually find just to be abdominal pain or cysts.

I am talking sparingly and with a kind, but distant tone. She hasn't said she wants to come back yet, but has apologized for leaving and tried to explain why she left (she felt hurt, overwhelmed, etc.) She's also said she's upset that I didn't "chase her."

I know she is on her 2nd job there, is running out of money, and her parents kicked her out a while ago (says she's living in a room of a house with roommates, likely some girls from her all girls' high school or college).

I know that's a long reply, but that's where it stands. I could write so much more. Let me know if something isn't clear.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts/feedback. In short, definitely an impulsive leaving, and I know she regrets giving me the dog, apartment, access to money, etc. One more thing of note, the apartment lease renews in about 3 weeks and it will be renewed without her, so that she can be removed if she comes back and problems arise. She has practically no income due impulsive quitting. I am financially okay no matter what happens.

[WhatToDo47]

Also, apparently she called the police when she came to get her things, she was scared I would come there and cause a scene, not sure why. She was really dysregulated then. She hasn't mentioned it to me, but a friend at the apartments told me in confidence for my safety. This worries me, and is the only time she's done this as far as I know.

[GaGrl]

Rather than having her return and then assessing any positive changes, can you think now of changes you would need to see in her behavior before she might return?

[WhatToDo47]

Rather than having her return and then assessing any positive changes, can you think now of changes you would need to see in her behavior before she might return?

Yes I can, she would have to agree to re-start therapy and continually attend, which she could do from there as it was via phone, and agree to a post nuptial agreement for both of our safety, which should be doable as we both have family law attorneys presently and I could frame this in a way that it's for her own benefit. I would also tell her that if she leaves again I will file for divorce no questions asked. Can she live up to these? Maybe. But then I will have given her a chance and also protected myself.

Thoughts?

[ForeverDad]

The police should have a record of their response to her call.  You have an approximate date, know which police department would have responded to her call, so check what record they may have.  It may be just that police officers visited your address, or it may have more details.

So much she has a history of doing.  I wonder, does she have a history of filing claims or allegations in prior relationships?  Much of this would be public record in the various jurisdictions in which she resided (her home area, her college area, where she's lived over the years).  Your lawyer should know how to search for this even if you don't.  If anything pops up then you'd have a better idea how to handle your current dilemma about what to do.

[WhatToDo47]

The police should have a record of their response to her call.  You have an approximate date, know which police department would have responded to her call, so check what record they may have.  It may be just that police officers visited your address, or it may have more details.

So much she has a history of doing.  I wonder, does she have a history of filing claims or allegations in prior relationships?  Much of this would be public record in the various jurisdictions in which she resided (her home area, her college area, where she's lived over the years).  Your lawyer should know how to search for this even if you don't.  If anything pops up then you'd have a better idea how to handle your current dilemma about what to do.

That is a brilliant idea. I will check with the PD tomorrow.

I know she has a history of accusing past boyfriends of sexual crimes, but my understanding is that she never reported any of it. My guess now is that it didn't happen. I know her previous relationship to mine had a bizarre ending involving police doing a wellness check on her as her then-boyfriend thought she was suicidal (and maybe she was). I will look more into everything you suggested.

When I met her, she was 20 and still lived at her parents' and had all her life, so it should be a fairly easy search.

[NotAHero]

Hi,

You can see my previous posts for the full story. Short version, wife left in September, filed for divorce in December, still haven't been served. Lately, has been nicer and even apologized for leaving. Seems like she's going to try and come back. Of note, her mom (who also has BPD/NPD and who has a lot of influence on my wife) left her dad for a period of time before they had kids, it was a one time thing and now they are still married. I think a lot of this was my wife's mom putting ideas in my wife's head and egging her on to do this.

The 2 ideas, which I will only bring up if she asks to come back:

1.) Return is conditional on a post-nuptial agreement. This would protect me if she leaves again, and we already have lawyers anyways. I could frame this as protecting us both and the relationships.

2.) Instead of the first step being her returning, I would first suggest that I go visit there and we meet in a public place, such as going out to dinner. This would reduce the risk of her just showing up and give me a chance to see if she's sincere.

Yes, I know she's likely to repeat these patterns forever, and yes I know that it's illogical to even want to entertain the idea of reconciling. I guess I'm trying to gauge her intentions, and what amount of BPD craziness I would be required to radically accept in order to continue a relationship.

 Conditions and promises mean nothing for a BPD. They can genuinely agree and promise but the moment they get mad they will act impulsively.

 Why is the relationship so important to you? Is it worth the drama and not knowing what she will do next? Do you really want to have a child with someone like that? What makes you stay or wanting to be back? Ask yourself these questions.

[WhatToDo47]

Conditions and promises mean nothing for a BPD. They can genuinely agree and promise but the moment they get mad they will act impulsively.

 Why is the relationship so important to you? Is it worth the drama and not knowing what she will do next? Do you really want to have a child with someone like that? What makes you stay or wanting to be back? Ask yourself these questions.

I feel like I need to tattoo this on my forehead at this point. I keep coming up with these beautiful, logical plans in my head that would work in a normal marriage. I have to remember the impulsiveness. I guess what I’m aiming for now are conditions that would protect myself during any impulsive acting out episodes.

I’m going to answer your other questions as honestly as I can, even though I realize some of the answers will be illogical or foolhardy.

Why is the relationship so important to you?

Marriage, sunk cost fallacy, shared experiences, physical attraction

Is it worth the drama and not knowing what she will do next?

NO. NO. and NO. But also I feel powerless to stop it, a feeling I don’t have about anything else in my life.

Do you really want to have a child with someone like that? What makes you stay or wanting to be back? Ask yourself these questions.

I don’t want to have a child with who I’m learning she actually is. I do want the version of her that I thought she was to come back and have a child with that person. Unrealistic? Yes.

In sum, cognative dissonance and years of grooming (intentional or not), false hope, codependency, white night complex.

It’s not that I don’t value myself or think that I can do better. I know I can. It’s more a feeling of who else is equipped to help her and a stubborn not wanting to give up on her or the relationship, a character trait that has helped me in my other non-romantic relationships, career, athletics, etc, but is killing me here.

Thoughts?

[NotAHero]

I feel like I need to tattoo this on my forehead at this point. I keep coming up with these beautiful, logical plans in my head that would work in a normal marriage. I have to remember the impulsiveness. I guess what I’m aiming for now are conditions that would protect myself during any impulsive acting out episodes.

I’m going to answer your other questions as honestly as I can, even though I realize some of the answers will be illogical or foolhardy.

Why is the relationship so important to you?

Marriage, sunk cost fallacy, shared experiences, physical attraction

Is it worth the drama and not knowing what she will do next?

NO. NO. and NO. But also I feel powerless to stop it, a feeling I don’t have about anything else in my life.

Do you really want to have a child with someone like that? What makes you stay or wanting to be back? Ask yourself these questions.

I don’t want to have a child with who I’m learning she actually is. I do want the version of her that I thought she was to come back and have a child with that person. Unrealistic? Yes.

In sum, cognative dissonance and years of grooming (intentional or not), false hope, codependency, white night complex.

It’s not that I don’t value myself or think that I can do better. I know I can. It’s more a feeling of who else is equipped to help her and a stubborn not wanting to give up on her or the relationship, a character trait that has helped me in my other non-romantic relationships, career, athletics, etc, but is killing me here.

Thoughts?

 The loneliness and loss of companionship is very hard at first, but it gets better as you find yourself again. I have been through an ugly divorce and it was hard. She wasn’t a BPD but much worse - malicious ASPD. Framed me for criminal charges and almost ruined my life. Almost took away my livelihood and harmed my children greatly.

  I endured and lived 4 years by myself. Successfully got used to being very happy on my own. Became confident and happy every day. Then I met my BPD …despite the red flags I fell for her. At any rate the BPD is still much better than my first believe it or not. That’s a wrong way of thinking though because here I’m again I had to let her go. Amicable separation this time.

 Right now I’m in the lonely stage again. It’s very hard being alone again, on my own again.

 That being said, I know from experience it will get better and I’ll be happy and content again. Going back to being devalued regularly, even abused  and the uncertainty what the BPD might do next is not worth it, that I know.

 Yes she is extremely physically attractive. She is smart and fun when she is calm. She would be my soul mate if she wasn’t ill.

 Guess what ? She is and will never get better. The last 2 years were a nightmare I had to finally realize the push and pull cycle will never end unless I end it and so I did.

 I hope my story summary will help you in a way.

[WhatToDo47]

The loneliness and loss of companionship is very hard at first, but it gets better as you find yourself again. I have been through an ugly divorce and it was hard. She wasn’t a BPD but much worse - malicious ASPD. Framed me for criminal charges and almost ruined my life. Almost took away my livelihood and harmed my children greatly.

  I endured and lived 4 years by myself. Successfully got used to being very happy on my own. Became confident and happy every day. Then I met my BPD …despite the red flags I fell for her. At any rate the BPD is still much better than my first believe it or not. That’s a wrong way of thinking though because here I’m again I had to let her go. Amicable separation this time.

 Right now I’m in the lonely stage again. It’s very hard being alone again, on my own again.

 That being said, I know from experience it will get better and I’ll be happy and content again. Going back to being devalued regularly, even abused  and the uncertainty what the BPD might do next is not worth it, that I know.

 Yes she is extremely physically attractive. She is smart and fun when she is calm. She would be my soul mate if she wasn’t ill.

 Guess what ? She is and will never get better. The last 2 years were a nightmare I had to finally realize the push and pull cycle will never end unless I end it and so I did.

 I hope my story summary will help you in a way.

Your story summary helps me a lot! ASPD sounds miserable. It’s really nice to know from someone who’s been through it that the lonely period will end and that there’s light at the end of the tunnel. I really want a wife and family, I feel like I just fell victim to a bait and switch. Thanks for reminding me there’s hope.

“ Yes she is extremely physically attractive. She is smart and fun when she is calm. She would be my soul mate if she wasn’t ill.

 Guess what ? She is and will never get better. The last 2 years were a nightmare I had to finally realize the push and pull cycle will never end unless I end it and so I did.”

This is my wife exactly. She is beautiful, smart, caring, kind, fun, until she isn’t. Her pull is legendary. That’s how she survives. But then comes the raging, splitting, pushing, dissociating, etc. There’s a reason she gets every job she applies for. My family always used to say about her: She’s great when she’s good. Aka we put up with the nightmare version because the good one is great.

Anyways, I hope my lonely is short and yours too, if that’s what you want.