Is emotional detachment, abandonment?

[Depression = 72% of members]

In another thread I read a few days ago, if I've got this right, another member commented that "in a way" they abandoned their mother, even though they still have contact.

I get it.

Some of you may already be familiar with my story.  I won't repeat it here, but I recently returned to work after officially retiring 4 years ago, because 1) I was recruited and a great opportunity was offered to me (2) it would give me "space" from my mother's acutely intent physical and emotional needs (she's 85) and a very clear boundary around the time she likes to think I should spend with her.  She refuses most home care help and resources, and refused an offer of assisted living 2 1/2 years ago.  Instead, she idolizes a daughter who never married and lived with her mother her entire life, until the mother died.  A year later the daughter committed suicide.  That is what my mother has always let me know she wants and expects from me. That kind of obsessive devotion. Anything less meant I didn't love her enough.  I went above and beyond what any of my friends have done for their parents, and they are great supportive kids to their parents.  But my mom's needs have become controlling.  She doesn't appreciate or have gratitude.  She's negative and unpleasant to be around, and sometimes hurtful.  She FOG's, rages, and I am afraid of her.  Since I joined this forum 2 1/2 years ago, I have been slowly emotionally detaching from her.  I would say that my accepting this recent job offer, has been a huge step in my recovery.  Mother had a complete and total emotional   meltdown when I told her I had a new job.  In her thinking, "how dare I put my career before her, when she really needed me!"  "She stayed home from work to be a stay at home mom for me when I was little, and now I owe her the same!" She said to me "you are so selfish!"  "You are a terrible person!"  "Get the h_ _ _ _ out of my house" (repeated many times).

Because I came out of retirement, and returned to work, my mother "felt" abandoned.

However, I have not "abandoned" her.  I am still very much involved, but at a greatly reduced level, which meets my wellness needs at a level "managed" by me.

What I think I have accomplished over the past couple of years, is a level of emotional detachment.  I am no longer emotionally close to her.  When I was a young adult, we were "best friends".  Now I see how messed up that was (I am 60).  She was my "matron of honour" when H and I got married.  Now that she is old and honestly, decrepit (hurts to say that but it's the truth), she "feeds" off the attention she gets from all her handicaps, but only wants that attention from me.  I am not a nurse or doctor.  I am not a psychiatrist.  I am not a counsellor.  I am not her best friend.  I am a daughter.  But she doesn't know how to be a mother.

On the other thread, when I read another members comment that "in a way they have abandoned their mother", I had to sit with this for a while, because I know that is what my mother thinks I have done to her by returning to work.  But I think that word "abandonment" is our mother's feeling.  And we have to be careful not to take that on.

For me, the comment was close to home, because I have been slowly working to detach my feelings from my mother's feelings for a couple of years now.  And since her strategies to have all her needs met by me through emotional control just got to be too much, and since I have decided to return to work (and contribute to helping people in the community who actually want help), and since my mom reacted to my return to work with her disordered feelings of abandonment raging, I am choosing to assert and recognize that those are her feelings, and I am not taking those on.  She is still asking for things, and I am still helping where I choose to.  I still do shopping for her.  I still take her to some (but not all) appointments.  I will still do plenty of other things for her when I am ready.  Right now, my amygdala is still calming down from the last round.  I am finally starting to sleep again.  She isn't renting space in my head every waking moment. Still too much space though...because sadly, here I am again...still feeling some guilt, but rationalizing that I don't need to, because her disorder is beyond my control.

Reduced contact does not equal abandonment, regardless of what it feels like to our mothers.

That is their feeling, not ours.  Their feeling it, does not make it a fact.

Right?  Wrong?  Am I on a healthy path here, or did I take a wrong turn somewhere?  Thoughts?  Advice?

[Methuen]

In another thread I read a few days ago, if I've got this right, another member commented that "in a way" they abandoned their mother, even though they still have contact.

I get it.

Some of you may already be familiar with my story.  I won't repeat it here, but I recently returned to work after officially retiring 4 years ago, because 1) I was recruited and a great opportunity was offered to me (2) it would give me "space" from my mother's acutely intent physical and emotional needs (she's 85) and a very clear boundary around the time she likes to think I should spend with her.  She refuses most home care help and resources, and refused an offer of assisted living 2 1/2 years ago.  Instead, she idolizes a daughter who never married and lived with her mother her entire life, until the mother died.  A year later the daughter committed suicide.  That is what my mother has always let me know she wants and expects from me. That kind of obsessive devotion. Anything less meant I didn't love her enough.  I went above and beyond what any of my friends have done for their parents, and they are great supportive kids to their parents.  But my mom's needs have become controlling.  She doesn't appreciate or have gratitude.  She's negative and unpleasant to be around, and sometimes hurtful.  She FOG's, rages, and I am afraid of her.  Since I joined this forum 2 1/2 years ago, I have been slowly emotionally detaching from her.  I would say that my accepting this recent job offer, has been a huge step in my recovery.  Mother had a complete and total emotional   meltdown when I told her I had a new job.  In her thinking, "how dare I put my career before her, when she really needed me!"  "She stayed home from work to be a stay at home mom for me when I was little, and now I owe her the same!" She said to me "you are so selfish!"  "You are a terrible person!"  "Get the h_ _ _ _ out of my house" (repeated many times).

Because I came out of retirement, and returned to work, my mother "felt" abandoned.

However, I have not "abandoned" her.  I am still very much involved, but at a greatly reduced level, which meets my wellness needs at a level "managed" by me.

What I think I have accomplished over the past couple of years, is a level of emotional detachment.  I am no longer emotionally close to her.  When I was a young adult, we were "best friends".  Now I see how messed up that was (I am 60).  She was my "matron of honour" when H and I got married.  Now that she is old and honestly, decrepit (hurts to say that but it's the truth), she "feeds" off the attention she gets from all her handicaps, but only wants that attention from me.  I am not a nurse or doctor.  I am not a psychiatrist.  I am not a counsellor.  I am not her best friend.  I am a daughter.  But she doesn't know how to be a mother.

On the other thread, when I read another members comment that "in a way they have abandoned their mother", I had to sit with this for a while, because I know that is what my mother thinks I have done to her by returning to work.  But I think that word "abandonment" is our mother's feeling.  And we have to be careful not to take that on.

For me, the comment was close to home, because I have been slowly working to detach my feelings from my mother's feelings for a couple of years now.  And since her strategies to have all her needs met by me through emotional control just got to be too much, and since I have decided to return to work (and contribute to helping people in the community who actually want help), and since my mom reacted to my return to work with her disordered feelings of abandonment raging, I am choosing to assert and recognize that those are her feelings, and I am not taking those on.  She is still asking for things, and I am still helping where I choose to.  I still do shopping for her.  I still take her to some (but not all) appointments.  I will still do plenty of other things for her when I am ready.  Right now, my amygdala is still calming down from the last round.  I am finally starting to sleep again.  She isn't renting space in my head every waking moment. Still too much space though...because sadly, here I am again...still feeling some guilt, but rationalizing that I don't need to, because her disorder is beyond my control.

Reduced contact does not equal abandonment, regardless of what it feels like to our mothers.

That is their feeling, not ours.  Their feeling it, does not make it a fact.

Right?  Wrong?  Am I on a healthy path here, or did I take a wrong turn somewhere?  Thoughts?  Advice?

[Goldcrest]

Methuen I needed to read your post this morning. I'm trying to work low contact and detachment with my mother at the moment because I feel so swallowed up by her need and diminished by her rage and criticism. I'm probably going to be the person who responds that doesn't have a good answer LOL. I find in my own situation when I enforce space (through my own anger and boundaries) Mother will always seduce me back again when things have calmed with love bombing and the waif. It's like a hypnotist who has you doing things you would never do in rational thought.

I am not a nurse or doctor.  I am not a psychiatrist.  I am not a counsellor.  I am not her best friend.  I am a daughter.  But she doesn't know how to be a mother.

We know the above and we remind ourselves this hourly, but they will never know or accept it. We have to be the gate keeper to our resources. I think the battle we have is with ourselves? It is holding firm against the  version of her that has caused you pain and neglect, drained you of life. Ignoring the cries for help from the toddler, the waif. My problem is that when I get the space I need and I notice a feeling of happiness, I start to feel sorry for her, I feel awash with guilt as I imagine her as a little lost girl. I sometimes "feel" her feelings, as if they were my own. That is where my own experience of abandoning her comes in, that I have had to cause her suffering to have my separate life. Only one of us can thrive. This is where I need to remember that she has no concern of my suffering. We are one to her not two. My mother simply cannot conceive that I should have my own life, feelings, experiences. My separateness = her abandonment.

I'm not sure where I am going with all this so forgive me if I am off topic but yes I think we do have to abandon them and cause great suffering in order to have our own freedom. I am nearly 50 and I have missed out on so much because of her, it devastates me sometimes when I look at what I have given up because of her and what she has failed to protect me from.

So what you are doing is brilliant because you are wearing your armour and living your life on your terms. Taking the job offer is a huge step in recovery.   I am cheering you on and I hope to find a way to have low contact/boundaried contact with my mum. To be occasionally physically present but emotionally gone.  

[Notwendy]

Methuen, I wrote that post - because without the drama, I feel a larger emotional distance from my mother. Unlike your relationship, we were never close. I think the emotional drama was the foundation of the relationship- and when I emotionally detached, there was less of it. I also think the attachment was mostly on my part. I was doing the "emotional work" of the relationship and when I stopped doing that, the relationship felt more empty- because it actually is empty on her part. My mother is not emotionally invested in me. I am useful to her and as long as I am useful to her, we have a relationship. We were not ever "best friends" although I tried to stay in her good graces.

When my father died, my mother basically disowned me. She was angry at the time and didn't calculate the situation well- because she wants the attention of her grandchildren- my children. Somehow she assumed she could have a relationship with them and not me. They are adults now and she does contact them without going through me, but they have seen her behaviors now and also keep a distance from her. They are polite and cordial, but don't provide the kind of attention she craves. She later "reowned" me- but she shows no affection or concern for me. She has expressed a desire to move closer to me "to see her grandchildren more often" - ie- be included in our family get togethers. But she has not expressed any desire to see me or ask me to visit.

I have always been her scapegoat child. I wonder now if the main connection was between me and my father and ours was more about us mutually tolerating each other because of that.

The "abandonment" feeling is likely on both our parts. For me, it's an abandonment of my own idea of what I would do for my elderly parents. This is not what I envisioned. There came a time where my friends and acquaintances were making arrangements for their aging parents to move closer to them. We went together to look at retirement places and assisted living to see what they were like. One of my friends' mother visited them often and became a family friend. I had this idea of having a relationship with my elderly parents and helping them because I wanted that.

But my attempts resulted in drama I never expected and experiencing BPD mother's emotional and verbal abuse reminded me that this idea I had was mostly mine, and she wasn't just directing it at me, but my father as well. I wasn't aware of the extent of her need to control but she would not cooperate with my attempts to help her and although my intentions were good, they were twisted into being something else. I truly feel that I tried to do what I could, and it didn't work and it was not ever enough for either of my parents. Having any boundary resulted in them having angry outbursts. I have my own family to take care of and they didn't consider that. I finally had to accept that this situation was abusive and have boundaries with it.

BPD mom did not connect her behavior to the boundaries. I am not sure she feels abandoned in the sense of a relationship abandon.  I realize now that I think the two main factors for our relationship were my father and my role of servitude to her. As long as I am useful to her, there's the feeling of a relationship on my part. Emotionally, there's not much connection to me on her part.

[beatricex]

Hi Methuen,
I believe the grief we feel is real and you are doing the hard work of feeling the emotional abandonment years after you were actually emotionally abandoned by your mother (not having a nurturing, safe, kind, empathetic, listening, gentle mother is emotionally hard).  That we stuff the Feelings associated with this, put on a brave face and tell ourselves often through the help of a therapist "this isn't That bad" is amazing.  But it is that bad, and the feelings can creep up and overwhelm us at the most inopportune times.  Personally, I was numb for a lot of years.  When I finally met my husband and felt "safe" for once in my life I had a bond that wasn't a trauma bond, that's when the grief over not having my mother (ever on my side) came.

This article really helped me
https://glynissherwood.com/family-scapegoat-estrangement-grief-life-after-low-or-no-contact/

 
b

[GaGrl]

I do not view detachment as abandonment. I did much better handling my mother's needs by staying detached -- that is, maintaining a clear definition of what was her "stuff" and what was mine. If I let down my defenses, she could trigger me with her favorite technique of silent treatment.

When I retired and moved into our retirement home, in which my mom had been living for three years, I had a conversation with her to set expectations. She had been having her caregiver come in three times a week, and she asked if I thought she should now cut back on the number of days of home assistance. I immediately said no, and added --

"I want to live here as your daughter, not your full-time caregiver. I'm not trained to do that, and it's not good for either you or me. There are things I can do to help, like medicines and doctor appointments, and I'll do more as time goes on, but you need to keep as much care giving help as you need and can afford."

Otherwise, I would not have retired -- I would simply have gotten a new job. While she was still mobile and independent at that time, she was 92 and becoming more frail every year.

I don't think I could have had that conversation unless I had detached from my mom's emotional neediness in certain situations. She could be a contradiction -- valuing her independence while being scared of her utter dependence on an only daughter and son-in-law.

It was the most difficult time of my life.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I also think we need to "abandon" them in order to free ourselves. However, we are not abandoning them, we are doing what healthy individuals coming from healthy families do every day without thinking about it twice.

The thing is, our BPD mother have been abandoned well before our time, we are just the scapegoat to their suffering, just a blank canvas on which they can paint their past traumas and relive it over and over. In doing so, we are forced to be their painting, and we lose our right to paint our own canvas ourselves.

We are not abandoning them, we are just painting our own canvas, the one we were born with the right to paint. They are just too traumatized to realize they always had a place in our painting. They are the ones choosing not to take this place we offered.. In a way, THEY abandoned US.

Today I feel at peace with it. Tomorrow, I might not. But for now: it's not about her and her needs, it's about being able to fulfill my life and if it means being blamed for abandoning her and being her persecutor, so be it. I know this is not who I am.

Grandma just got into the hospital, uBPDm texted me that two days ago... and I don't even want to ask my mother how she is doing, I am not her freaking therapist and I am DONE taking care of her and her poor little person. Done. Done. Done. She would just use it against me anyway so I will ask my aunt. She is the one messing up our relationship and today, I've had enough of it.

[Methuen]

Methuen I'm trying to work low contact and detachment with my mother at the moment because I feel so swallowed up by her need and diminished by her rage and criticism. I find in my own situation when I enforce space (through my own anger and boundaries) Mother will always seduce me back again when things have calmed with love bombing and the waif. It's like a hypnotist who has you doing things you would never do in rational thought.

I can relate.  This is my struggle too.  It's been such a cycle, and probably exacerbated by the fact that we are natural "helpers".  My career has been in a helping profession, and maybe you have this trait too, so we kinda naturally slip back into it, unless we are wholly aware and on guard, which I think I finally am.  Like you say, the battle we have is with ourselves.

My problem is that when I get the space I need and I notice a feeling of happiness, I start to feel sorry for her, I feel awash with guilt as I imagine her as a little lost girl. I sometimes "feel" her feelings, as if they were my own. That is where my own experience of abandoning her comes in, that I have had to cause her suffering to have my separate life. Only one of us can thrive. This is where I need to remember that she has no concern of my suffering. We are one to her not two. My mother simply cannot conceive that I should have my own life, feelings, experiences. My separateness = her abandonment.

This is exactly what I am getting at in my original post.  But, "your separateness=her abandonment" is her feeling.  Let her feel her feeling.  We can't fix that feeling for her.  It comes from within her. But her feelings and our feelings should be separate. To me, this is "individuation".  Our mothers took this (individuation) away from us, but we can claim it back.  In healthy families, the children start to "individuate" at the toddler/preschooler age.  But as children, our brains weren't developed enough to psychoanalyze what our mothers were doing to us, and we were defenseless against the training of being their caretakers.  So, we have the task of "individuating" now as adults.  Sadly, our mothers aren't emotionally equipped to deal with it.  But again, they are adults, and we must also learn to look after our own needs and wellness, and that includes not being used and abused by them.  Back to individuation and "feelings", their feelings and our feelings should not be one and the same.  Because they are "feeling" abandoned does not mean that they are.  In my case, it is anything but.  I will continue to support my mom, but on terms that also work for me.  I am no longer her servant.  But I have definitely not abandoned her.  I have just taken more control of what I can and can't do for her.

I'm not sure where I am going with all this so forgive me if I am off topic but yes I think we do have to abandon them and cause great suffering in order to have our own freedom. I am nearly 50 and I have missed out on so much because of her, it devastates me sometimes when I look at what I have given up because of her and what she has failed to protect me from.

So this is my point to this thread, in a nutshell.  Instead of using the word "abandon", what if you substituted "emotionally detach" (which could be on a sliding scale).  By calling it "emotional detachment" I do not mean "emotionally gone".  We are always going to have feelings.  But our feelings do not need to mirror our mothers'.  The word "abandon" is such an emotionally charged intense word with such negative implications that would really assign guilt back to us.  I can't see how that is "just".  It's not "abandonment" if we are still in their life at some level right?  I remember when I first joined this forum a couple of years ago, Harri replied in a post that "emotionally detaching with love" could be a goal for me (if I'm even remembering that accurately).  I think that is a much more fair way of describing it than "abandon" which describes their feeling, but does not have to describe ours, if we successfully individuate.  Does that make any sense to anyone else out there?  Or am I just way off base here?

NotWendy:

"I am useful to her and as long as I am useful to her, we have a relationship."

 OMG, this is exactly my mom.  For years now, when H and I go to her house, she has "lists" for us of things we need to do for her, so she can function in her house.  There's hardly been  reciprocal conversations, probably since my dad died, but the change probably happened after I got married.  She resented my H, until he too became useful to her because of how "handy" he is, and because he had hobbies similar to hers (gardening).  These things put him in her "good graces".  As she has aged, our "relationship" (if I can call it that) has deteriorated, and we have simply become her servants.  To hear her boss us around with the tone she uses is truly disconnecting.  We call her on it.  It doesn't matter.  The next time we come she is the same.  It is just who she is.  She feels entitled.  It's also how her brain is wired up.  That's never going to change.  So we have learned to work with it the best we can.  Living in the same town has been a challenge, because there is "no space".   Back to the entitlement, she also feels entitled that I should be her best friend and counsellor.  The best friend bit ended when I started my career and got married (almost 33 years ago).  The counsellor bit ended about 20 years ago, when I told her I wasn't her counsellor.  She fired back that she had gone to see a counsellor once (which I have doubts about) and "it was the worst thing she ever did". (OK maybe she went).  She said at the end of the session the counsellor told her that her daughter would be her best counsellor (I don't believe any counsellor would say that, but my mom can twist anything to mean what she wants it to mean).  My mom wants what she wants.  She wants me to be totally devoted to her.  Anything short of what she wants, means I don't love her.  Therefore she is entitled to strike me from the Will.  Whatever.  I can't control that.  I have not abandoned her at all.  I am still involved.  If taking back control of what I do with my life (i.e. returning to work) makes her feel abandoned, that is her feeling to work through.  It is not my feeling. And I told her that during her "rage".  I have not abandoned her as I still do much for her.  Am I emotionally detaching, and individuating my feelings from hers?  Yes.

I think as long as we buy into the idea that we have "abandoned" our mothers at some level, we may be opening ourselves up to being vulnerable to them, at least in my case where my mother only lives 6 min away from me, that is how it can go.  But if I recognize that I am learning to take care of my own needs, and individuating my feelings from her, than it follows (for me) that I can detach myself from her emotions, without abandoning her.  It can't be abandonment if I am still in contact with her, and/or involved in her life, right?  That doesn't make any sense to me.  Just my logic.

I see the word "abandonment" used a lot on this site, and I am struggling with it's meaning, and sometimes how it is used.  I am surmising, that a lot of us have been taking this word on as our responsibility, and something we have done to them, but detaching our emotions from our mother's is, I think, a much healthier way of looking at it.  Their feeling of abandonment is their disease talking.  We don't have to own their feeling as ours.  I'm just thinking out loud here as I try to work through all this.  Everyone is free to disagree   and I'm all ears to listen.  I just wanted to start the conversation, as it is something I am working through as I return to employed life, which leaves less time for servitude to my mom.  This forum is the only space I have (other than T) where I can have a safe conversation with people who "get it".  

I actually love it when there are different opinions.  It gets the "thinking juices" flowing.

Beatricex:

]I believe the grief we feel is real and you are doing the hard work of feeling the emotional abandonment years after you were actually emotionally abandoned by your mother .  That we stuff the Feelings associated with this, put on a brave face and tell ourselves often through the help of a therapist "this isn't That bad" is amazing.  But it is that bad, and the feelings can creep up and overwhelm us at the most inopportune times.  Personally, I was numb for a lot of years.  When I finally met my husband and felt "safe" for once in my life I had a bond that wasn't a trauma bond, that's when the grief over not having my mother (ever on my side) came.

Beatricex, thank you for this.  The whole piece resonated with me hugely.  Hugely.  Thank you for the article - haven't read it yet - but it's on my bucket list for tonight.

Gagrl:

"She had been having her caregiver come in three times a week, and she asked if I thought she should now cut back on the number of days of home assistance. I immediately said no, and added --

"I want to live here as your daughter, not your full-time caregiver. I'm not trained to do that, and it's not good for either you or me. There are things I can do to help, like medicines and doctor appointments, and I'll do more as time goes on, but you need to keep as much care giving help as you need and can afford."

Thank you for this reminder.  I told my mom 2+ years ago (after her fall under the plum tree which resulted in 4 fractures and I tried rehabbing her for 4 weeks during which time she became frustrated and abusive) that I was not trained to be a nurse or personal caregiver.  That was the first time I brought in home care (after the 4 weeks).  Recently at an appointment for her eye (she's currently getting home care meds to prevent blindness from an unlucky infection related to macular degeneration shots), she told the doctor she couldn't afford home care.  The doctor looked at me.  I looked at mom, and said "mom you can easily afford to pay for home care".  She was furious at me afterwards and angrily told me I had no business sharing her personal information.  She doesn't like paying for home care.  She wants me to do it, and also keep taking her to her appointments where she tells her doctors all kinds of lies.  Anyways, your words reminded me that I can use this line directly with her again: "you need to keep as much caregiving as you need.  I am not a nurse."  I needed to hear that again, even though I've said it to her well into the past.  I also cannot participate in her lies at her appointments without saying something to her doctors. I will not be her flying monkey.

Riverwolf:

"In doing so, we are forced to be their painting, and we lose our right to paint our own canvas ourselves. We are not abandoning them, we are just painting our own canvas, the one we were born with the right to paint. They are just too traumatized to realize they always had a place in our painting. They are the ones choosing not to take this place we offered.. In a way, THEY abandoned US."

 I love this metaphor.  It's brilliant!  I am seeing the patterns in many of the posts on this thread.  We're all on such similar journeys, with many similar struggles.  It's so helpful to have a forum to share thoughts and ideas as we muddle through this mess.

I'm grateful for all the replies, and conversations.  I truly believe coming to terms with what abandonment means to them, versus what we are doing with trying to emotionally detach (sliding scale), is an important piece in our recovery.  Just trying to figure it out.

[Turkish]

It's not abandonment, it's boundaries. If you were talking to a younger married women, say, how would you respond of she told you that her husband 100% defined (demanded) things of her that defined what a "Good wife" was but only from his point of view? Like she had no opinion to consider?

You sound like you still do a lot for her and haven't abandoned her. You've stepped back from unreasonable physical and emotional demands which she desires due to her disordered world-view.

If I were to know what you are doing for her now, knowing nothing else (BPD or your history), I'd think that you're doing a good job taking care of your mother. Even knowing, I think that you are.  

[GaGrl]

There is also the complication of your mother being "legally competent" to make her own BAD decisions. You can't override this without medical support or court competency hearings. So...it is what it is for now.

[Turkish]

There is also the complication of your mother being "legally competent" to make her own BAD decisions. You can't override this without medical support or court competency hearings. So...it is what it is for now.

As my therapist said, "you have a home, not a hospital which is what your mother needs."

[Mata]

Methuen - this is one way I think of it -- I think there's a difference between abandoning (as a verb, an action, i.e. dumping a dog on the side of the road), and abandonment (as a noun, a thing or a feeling, i.e., how our BPDm feel).  I know I have not abandoned (verb) my BPDmom because there are things I do for her, and I have contact with her.  But she may still feel abandoned (noun), as if I left her on the side of the road, when I don't try to meet all of her needs.  But those are her feelings.  They do not reflect the reality of my actions.

I used to struggle a lot with feeling guilty for 'abandoning' my mom when I started having boundaries and emotionally detaching from her.  But the reality is that I was not abandoning her, it was healthy, loving detachment.  I think some of my guilt was a result of the fact I was so emotionally enmeshed with my mom for a long time, I literally felt what she felt.  So when I started having better boundaries, some of that emotional enmeshment was transferring her feelings of abandonment onto my actions.  I don't know if that make sense.  Over time, it got less and less for me.  Two years ago I could not have imagined not feeling guilty.  But it's drastically less now.   I think re-framing the narrative on "abandonment" has helped me.  Because that word used to make me feel like a terrible person if I had any boundaries. 

[Notwendy]

Yes, Methuen, I understand the feeling of "being useful to my mother". I have noticed I also take that into other relationships. I feel most secure when I am doing something useful. Now, they aren't necessarily BPD relationships and there's a genuine connections. It's more on my part- feeling I need to be doing something to feel secure.

I like the idea of dropping the abandonment term. I think the abandonment could also be abandoning the illusion- that somehow by doing things for them- we will achieve the approval we want.

Beatricex- that article describes the situation well.

[Methuen]

It's not abandonment, it's boundaries.

I completely agree.  But I see the term used on this forum so often, that I started to question myself at a particularly difficult time.

I think when we take on the feeling that we are abandoning them, we are accepting their projection of feeling abandoned onto us.  This is where I am trying to distinguish whose feeling it is.  I believe it is their feeling.  They have never separated their feelings and our feelings, so they expect us to take that same feeling on.  Most of us have been "trained" to do this. But we don't have to.  The time has come to question how the term "abandonment" is used.  By accepting it as our mother's feel it, I think we are sentencing ourselves to feeling guilty forever.

Thanks Turkish for your kind words.  So appreciated.

Beatricex, I got to that article last night.  That was a solid article.  As NotWendy says: it describes the situation well.  

Mata: This is exactly what I am talking about.

I used to struggle a lot with feeling guilty for 'abandoning' my mom when I started having boundaries and emotionally detaching from her.  But the reality is that I was not abandoning her, it was healthy, loving detachment.  I think some of my guilt was a result of the fact I was so emotionally enmeshed with my mom for a long time, I literally felt what she felt.  So when I started having better boundaries, some of that emotional enmeshment was transferring her feelings of abandonment onto my actions.  I don't know if that make sense.

It's also good to hear that over time it got easier for you.  That gives me much optimism for myself.

[zachira]

Methuen,
Your mother abandonned you. It is normal to want to distance ourselves from people who don't really care about us. The more we distance ourselves from someone, the more detached we become. Your mother accusing you of abandonning her is projection on her part.

[Methuen]

Update:  On Thursday, mother had a phone appt with her doctor for a drug renewal.  

A big change happened prior to this.  She has  ALWAYS made her next drug renewal appointment before she leaves the dr office.  Last time she forgot.  She’s shown signs of dementia for a long time, but thankfully it’s now diagnosed.  The phone appt for her drug renewal was “accompanied” at her request.  She cant hear over the phone. She also has trouble processing.  And when shes nervous, she can’t get her words out because of her Parkinsons.  H was with her as I worked a 10 hour day.  She told her doctor “I can’t go on like this! Something is wrong!  I just want to go to bed all day.  I have a headache that is killing me.  I hurt all over!  I have trouble swallowing.  I always have a dry mouth.  I have temporal arteritis!  (A friend of hers had this for a recent diagnosis).So he ordered a battery of blood and urine tests to rule out some acute physical diseases, stat.  So yesterday morning I transported her to the lab.  While waiting she got a nosebleed that wouldn’t stop.  When it was her turn, she started pushing her walker, but I had to stop her because I saw a glasses lens on the floor.  I looked at her, and one of her lenses was missing.  She hadn’t  noticed.  When it came time for her to pee in the bottle I asked her if she could do it here or if she wanted to do it at home.  She said she hadn’t gone to the bathroom yet today so she could do it here.  When she handed me the bottle there wasn’t enough to get to the fill line they had marked which wasn’t even 1cm.  She said “well I went to the bathroom just before we came here.” I got the call from the doctors office later in the day that “all her test results were normal.  If her symptoms persisted over the weekend that she should call the office for another appointment on Tuesday”.  

Her response?  “It has to be the eye ointment thats making me sick”.  The eye ointment treatment is at bedtime delivered by homecare.  She hates it. Underscore hate.  She’s cancelled it the last few days.  It is treatment after an unfortunate acute infection which is a risk factor for macular degeneration shots.  

Yesterday while I was transporting her she told me some story about someone who knows someone whose son spends half a day every day at his mom’s apartment looking after her.  I deflected that dart by playing grey rock and distracting her, which is dead easy to do.  

Anyone have any suggestions, phrases or anything,  to get her doctor’s attention?  

She hasn’t pulled the suicide card yet, so I can’t use that to get his attention.  

Because I know her well, she has a wild look about her.  H and I are quite convinced she’s in a mental health crises, but I’ve explained everything to her doctor multiple times. She took a big turn for the worse when she failed her driver’s medical.  Then she got the eye infection causing vision loss.  We went away on a holiday.  I have taken a new job.  We can see she’s in a mental health crises.  

Her doctor just cut back the Mirtazapine  antidepressant and antianxiety because mom complained she felt “over drgged”.

How do I get through to her doctor?  What do I need to say that I haven’t already?

Or, do I just let this play out, because she is the driver of her own life, and is fiercely determined to do things her way and remain independent? Except that she’s as dependent as a toddler…

[GaGrl]

I'm so sorry...it does sound as if she continues to deteriorate.

What reaction do you anticipate the doctor would have if you reported bluntly that your mother appears to be having a mental health crisis, as opposed to anything physical?

Has your mother seen a geriatric psychiatrist? They are especially tuned to seeing combinations of dementia, physical disorders, and deteriorating mental health. Would that require a referral from her doctor? (My ex had a great deal of success in moving his mother to assisted living after a geriatric psychiatrist determined she was having small strokes.)

Do you anticipate she may renew suicide threats again? Is that what it might take to have her mental health assessed?

[Methuen]

All good points GaGrl:

What reaction do you anticipate the doctor would have if you reported bluntly that your mother appears to be having a mental health crisis, as opposed to anything physical?

Has your mother seen a geriatric psychiatrist?

Do you anticipate she may renew suicide threats again? Is that what it might take to have her mental health assessed?

We had a phone appointment back in December regarding the mental health crisis.  My mom, our daughter (physiotherapist) and myself were all present.  D25 did most of the talking with the Dr, with mom concurring that her anxiety was out of control, and contributing to her stomach problems and anxiety attacks (racing heart etc). That was when Dr increased her Mirtazapine.  Now that she is complaining of feeling overmedicated, he has decreased her Mirtazapine.  The pattern I am seeing is that he reacts to whatever is in front of him in that moment, without seeing the "big picture".  He has a great reputation, but I think he has a terrible memory.  Without the bigger dose of Mirtazapine, I feel my mom is going to emotionally implode.  It's just a matter of when.

In a different confidential appointment I had with her doctor in January, I inquired about having her see a geriatric psychiatrist.  He suggested waiting for the results of her Cat Scan.  H found out last week in the drug renewal phone appointment with her doctor, that her Cat Scan results came back "normal".  H couldn't question it because mom was also present.  Back in 2015 a specialist who looked at a Cat Scan after a mild stroke commented "she has bingswangers" (vascular dementia to my understanding).  So those two Cat scans don't support each other.  Always a run around.  So if he was waiting on objective Cat Scan results to refer to a geriatric psychiatrist, it ain't gonna happen.  So much chaos. I'm just exhausted with her.  Plus would she have to "consent" to that?  She's never going to do that...

I also took her to a Parkinson specialist in January.  He spent an hour with her, and prescribed a super low dose (half of the smallest dose available) to alleviate her "shaking" symptoms to help with tasks like self-feeding, and crafts.  This low dose was intended as a trial because of her age, with the intent to slowly increase it with monitoring.  I picked up the prescription and after the second day she quit taking it.  She told me this week "her shaking doesn't bother her".

At her appointment with her opthalmologist on Feb 5 she argued with her specialist about her treatment, saying "you don't know how expensive it is for old people", and "you don't know how hard it is to have someone coming to your house to deliver drops all day long".  The opthamologist just looked at me stunned.  I replied to mom that she could easily afford to pay home care for these drops. (She wants me to do it 4x/day right?)  Wow did I get in trouble for saying that, as it was "none of my business to say that".  I on the other hand, don't feel like I can participate in her lies, while being expected to ferry her to all these appointments (which give her lots of attention).  For the last 3 days, she has cancelled her night time eye ointment, "because she can't handle it".

As for suicide, she has talked about suicide in the past (it got bad after my dad died).  I packed her up one day and drove her to the doctor, who prescribed antidepressant.  She was on that for a time until she took herself off of it.

The closest she has come to suicide lately, is to talk flippantly of euthanasia.  I have started recording most of my conversations with her.  I know that if I ever called an ambulance at this threat, she would "flip", and sweetly tell the paramedics "I don't know why my daughter is saying that.  I said no such thing".  So I have resorted to "recording" most of our conversations, because without "evidence", I know that no one will (or can) do anything.

My worst case scenario is that it will either be a stroke, or a fall, or a suicide threat that puts her back in hospital.  Then I can try to explain to the ER doctor.  The first time that happened, he just released her, without even an after care plan from the fall.  That's when I landed on this website.  Since then with subsequent episodes, I have insisted on after care plans, but I have had to fight for it.  So if it happens again, I am just afraid that no one will "hear" me at the hospital.  After everything I have disclosed to her family doctor, I don't even know if he hears me, or if he just forgets everything I tell him, or if he's just uncomfortable with mental health.  I'm starting to wonder.

[GaGrl]

I would press the doctor on several points --

1) That a previous diagnosis of vascular dementia was not mentioned on the most recent scan. Has it worsened? What is the current situation? (Just because the doctor didn't mention it specifically doesn't mean nothing was there.)

2) That she is noncompliant with her prescribed medication and treatment plans.

3) That her mental health situation is an undiagnosed personality disorder that is worsening with age.

Her doctor sounds busy and distracted.

[Notwendy]

I don't have much to add to this, but I do agree that medicine, in general, has been stretched thin with the pandemic situation so bringing up your concerns again to the doctor might remind him. On the other hand, I also think non compliant patients are difficult,  and if a patient continues to ignore or not do what has been asked, the provider might also feel the strain.

I don't speak to my mother's doctor much, as she has home health who can do that but on her side of things, I can see how she must be a difficult patient. He's been my parents' family doctor for a long time and he had a great relationship with my father. My mother though, complains about him to me, is not compliant with her medicine. She's still legally competent and so, I think he's done the best he could do for her. While she does have help at home, she still decides what she wants to do and she can take care of her basic needs- dressing, bathing, etc.

If your mother chooses to be non compliant, there may be little her doctor can do to make her comply.

Your mother though seems to be at the point where her legal competency is in question and her ability to do self care tasks is compromised. Asking her doctor about this might result in steps to take power of attorney if you wish to take that direction.