My uBPD wife just dissing me vs my real faults - does she really want a divorce?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi,
15 years married to my uBPD wife. Been aware of her condition for the last two years. From the start she was "packing my bags" monthly but, since she is a really good person, and since she helped me a lot through my probably darkest days (realising I got diabetes T1 at 35) and her being the mother of our son who is the light of my life... I decided long ago I will stick with her no matter what, and I will not be the one to end our relationship.

The thing is that, since there are some real reasons why she might want divorce, primarily the fact that we live in a sexless marriage for some time now (only couple of "tryouts" in last 4-5 years, generally little sex after our son was born 11 years ago) which is due to the fact that I rapidly started experiencing diabetes caused ED, which I can manage using viagra, but that means our sex life should be planned, and she could never agree really on that; and also because I feel a certain fear of her reactions and been walking on eggshells constantly, and am not the alpha male kind that can just overcome it and "do it" when there is a chance.

I really love her and find her attractive, and we had perfect sex at the start, but after our son was born we had a break and never really recovered from that (there was always also the question of whether she wants or does not want another child with me / should we or should we not use protection / should I or should I not "pay attention" etc, which also made me totally insecure and afraid of enticing intimacy that with us always ended with intercourse really quickly cause that what we both like).

Also, another big reason why she would be partially right to want a divorce is that I have some issues myself. Being a creative person working in creative industry, I am a lot "in my head" all of my life and because of that I am in lot of ways an "idiot for life". So I make stupid mistakes, forgetting stuff, not doing stuff like it is supposed to be done in households etc.
I am extremely co-operative in this area from the start of our relationship and I never argue about doing stuff, in fact most of the household is on me (cooking, laundry except ironing, dog walking, groceries, our sons school, paying the bills...). But I am just not doing it great a lot of times and she gets really upset quite often, saying "I need a partner, and not another child" and so on.

So there is now more and more a big shadow lurking over me, like a big question... when she is "upside down" and says awful things about me, saying that she hates me and can not stand the look of me, that I am her biggest mistake and all of the classic BPD stuff... is it all just BPD or is she also, how to put it, "really miserable in our marriage"?
Because, if she is, and if there is any truth in that, would she really be better off without me? I think that no one would ever be able to love her like I do and tolerate her crazy ways. And I feel that she needs me because when she is OK we always make long term plans together etc.
But there is this grain of doubt in me... I am not a perfect husband and I am really not giving her a lot of what is "normal" in a marriage... I am a bit lost here.

Also, our 11 yo is by now quite aware of his mother "strange ways" and I am trying to help him by giving him signals when she is "upside down" so that he acts in a way not to provoke her further. This way we have together been able to make it all much more tolerable. I also often speak with him about the possibility of divorce which really frightens him because he would not like to be forced to live alone with her, and if we would to divorce, unless I pull the BPD card she would almost certainly got the custody. And if I would go the BPD way that would destroy our relationship for good and would be the worst scenario for our son.
So in fact I see no win-win situation here. The only thing that seems the right thing to do is to somehow keep my head up the water until our son gets old enough to be able to make his own choices (18 here). If the situation is the same by then (I heard that BPD tends to get better with age...), I would be have more open space to think about my choices.

But there also always lurks a question - why leave her "just" because she says nasty things every couple of days? I mean, it is not like she does anything bad, less only perhaps some stupid money-spending sprees but also less and less of that.
And she gave we so much, totally pulled me out of a really bad place I was when I met her, and gave my life a meaning.

Does anyone have a situation like that? That in fact they feel as if their uBPD partner is really just a sick person that needs our help, like a small child?

[olafinski]

Hi,
15 years married to my uBPD wife. Been aware of her condition for the last two years. From the start she was "packing my bags" monthly but, since she is a really good person, and since she helped me a lot through my probably darkest days (realising I got diabetes T1 at 35) and her being the mother of our son who is the light of my life... I decided long ago I will stick with her no matter what, and I will not be the one to end our relationship.

The thing is that, since there are some real reasons why she might want divorce, primarily the fact that we live in a sexless marriage for some time now (only couple of "tryouts" in last 4-5 years, generally little sex after our son was born 11 years ago) which is due to the fact that I rapidly started experiencing diabetes caused ED, which I can manage using viagra, but that means our sex life should be planned, and she could never agree really on that; and also because I feel a certain fear of her reactions and been walking on eggshells constantly, and am not the alpha male kind that can just overcome it and "do it" when there is a chance.

I really love her and find her attractive, and we had perfect sex at the start, but after our son was born we had a break and never really recovered from that (there was always also the question of whether she wants or does not want another child with me / should we or should we not use protection / should I or should I not "pay attention" etc, which also made me totally insecure and afraid of enticing intimacy that with us always ended with intercourse really quickly cause that what we both like).

Also, another big reason why she would be partially right to want a divorce is that I have some issues myself. Being a creative person working in creative industry, I am a lot "in my head" all of my life and because of that I am in lot of ways an "idiot for life". So I make stupid mistakes, forgetting stuff, not doing stuff like it is supposed to be done in households etc.
I am extremely co-operative in this area from the start of our relationship and I never argue about doing stuff, in fact most of the household is on me (cooking, laundry except ironing, dog walking, groceries, our sons school, paying the bills...). But I am just not doing it great a lot of times and she gets really upset quite often, saying "I need a partner, and not another child" and so on.

So there is now more and more a big shadow lurking over me, like a big question... when she is "upside down" and says awful things about me, saying that she hates me and can not stand the look of me, that I am her biggest mistake and all of the classic BPD stuff... is it all just BPD or is she also, how to put it, "really miserable in our marriage"?
Because, if she is, and if there is any truth in that, would she really be better off without me? I think that no one would ever be able to love her like I do and tolerate her crazy ways. And I feel that she needs me because when she is OK we always make long term plans together etc.
But there is this grain of doubt in me... I am not a perfect husband and I am really not giving her a lot of what is "normal" in a marriage... I am a bit lost here.

Also, our 11 yo is by now quite aware of his mother "strange ways" and I am trying to help him by giving him signals when she is "upside down" so that he acts in a way not to provoke her further. This way we have together been able to make it all much more tolerable. I also often speak with him about the possibility of divorce which really frightens him because he would not like to be forced to live alone with her, and if we would to divorce, unless I pull the BPD card she would almost certainly got the custody. And if I would go the BPD way that would destroy our relationship for good and would be the worst scenario for our son.
So in fact I see no win-win situation here. The only thing that seems the right thing to do is to somehow keep my head up the water until our son gets old enough to be able to make his own choices (18 here). If the situation is the same by then (I heard that BPD tends to get better with age...), I would be have more open space to think about my choices.

But there also always lurks a question - why leave her "just" because she says nasty things every couple of days? I mean, it is not like she does anything bad, less only perhaps some stupid money-spending sprees but also less and less of that.
And she gave we so much, totally pulled me out of a really bad place I was when I met her, and gave my life a meaning.

Does anyone have a situation like that? That in fact they feel as if their uBPD partner is really just a sick person that needs our help, like a small child?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

So...we'll never know for sure how their thought process works.

Probably best to deliberately limit the time you spend "figuring it out" because of that.

Where you likely should spend your energy is realizing that "sometimes my wife is miserable" and "she is married to me". 

That's going to affect your life to some extent, so be deliberate and unapologetic about limiting those negative affects.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

This is going to sound *heartless* but what I’ve figured out that works the best for me is to not delve into my husband’s issues, problems, or discontents.

In the past, I’ve been overly enmeshed. Now I tell myself, “Not my problem.”

Not only does it work better for me, it also seems to work better for him. It’s not to say I won’t lend a sympathetic ear (for a limited amount of time), or validate his feelings, it’s just that I don’t get emotionally wrapped up in the ever changing cycle of drama he creates for himself.

The last few days he’s been consumed by computer problems with getting a new printer for his photography and the Lightroom program and another program wouldn’t all communicate. You’d think it was some tragedy, rather than an inconvenience to his hobby.
 

[thankful person]

Olafinski, I have been on here several months, learning especially from FF and Cat who are excellent mentors and role models. My relationship with my wife had always been tumultuous, but the last couple of years getting worse with her criticisms, telling me I’m not good enough and all sorts of other things including problems with our sex life (we are a lesbian couple and have two young children). The good news is that since I’ve changed my behaviour, she has amazingly almost stopped criticising me most of the time. It’s hard to put my finger on exactly what I’m doing differently, but I am working on validating her feelings, “that must be hard on you to feel I don’t care about you..” etc. She seems to like this kind of thing. I don’t disagree openly (she used to see this as me starting arguments…) I say a lot less and just let her talk. I am also working on self care and taking back some of the power to do things she had banned me from doing. It makes me feel stronger and more relaxed and she seems to respect me more now. Good luck I’m glad you found us and hope it helps.

[olafinski]

I am also working on self care and taking back some of the power to do things she had banned me from doing. It makes me feel stronger and more relaxed and she seems to respect me more now.

Hi, can you tell me a bit more? This is one area where I really need some fresh perspective. I am afraid to be doing things she pushed me away from (mostly not directly but subtly). I am generally very afraid of her anger, not because I am afraid of how I might feel etc, but because our little one (11 yo boy) is always around and catches it all. He understands a lot about his mommy having " a different brain" but I am trying to present our relationship in a way that I am really doing my best for things to work (which I truly am) but they are not a lot of times cause she is simply like that, has her "crazy times".
I have a feeling that if I would start "misbehaving" (doing stuff she does not approve, which is in reality ANYTHING I am doing by myself and is not "needed" but is just my own pleasure...), our son would feel that I stopped doing my best because he knows that I know that that will make her mad, and I anyway do it, so... it means I stopped caring as much.

Does this makes sense? And how to jump over that? So it is not about me, but about our son and his perception of us, and me in particular. Am I doing all I possibly can? So far I am but it's been really difficult to keep up the good spirit with all this going on in the world asides from having a wife that is not really herself every now and then.

[thankful person]

Hi, can you tell me a bit more?

Olafinski, I used to feel exactly the same as you, keep the peace as much s as I could for the sake of the children. I recommend the books, “stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist” and “raising resilient children with a borderline or narcissist”. I read “stop walking on eggshells” but continued to walk on eggshells as shown by early posts of mine on here, I just didn’t get it.
It was a huge wake up call, to realise from the books and our wonderful mentors here… it is worse for our children to grow up in a household where everything revolves around one parent’s needs In the book, this is known as a narcissistic family system. I knew that my dbpdw had narcissistic tendencies, but I didn’t realise npd was so alike to bpd that you’d only need one book to cover both.
I want my children to learn to stand up for themselves. To be emotionally healthy, mentally well. Happy. I really don’t want them getting into a relationship like this. By showing your son that walking on eggshells, bending over backwards trying to please your wife is the answer, you are potentially encouraging him also to become a caretaker, to subconsciously search for a relationship with a selfish/mentally unwell person, whose needs will always go before his own.
By standing up for yourself, you can teach your son to do the same. I learnt to just do more things a person in a relationship might do. To do things for myself. I have written about it extensively on here, have a look at my latest post, “things I am doing differently”. My wife did have some bad reactions to some things at first. You can learn two things, how better to handle her reactions when she is displeased. And how to feel better about yourself, I used to direct hatred towards myself when I upset her. It may not seem so because it is counter-intuitive. But since I put down those boundaries and started standing up for myself… my wife has matured generally in her acceptance and expectations of me. It’s most strange actually. I’ve stopped apologising all the time and asking her permission for every little thing. I never thought a year ago that I could ever become someone on here who actually had any useful advice. I hope I have helped, even just a little bit. Please check out the books too. Best wishes…

[Cat Familiar]

Awesome reply, Broken person  

[olafinski]

My wife did have some bad reactions to some things at first.

But did she want a divorce? My wife is “packing my bage” since day one at least 2-3 times a month, totally seriously. Any of those, had I reacted from the Ego, could
have been our end. Again today she is yelling and trashing me and said she wants to divorce. So I am just wondering - does her “bad self” want the divorce (since when she is OK we male
long term plans and there is no mention of it), or is it just something that comes out when she is “up” but is really her deep desire?
Because I could not imagine divorcing her and leaving our son alone with her projecting her fears on him. And if we divorce and I play the BPD card she will hate me for good.
So I see no other choice than to tolerate this and try to keep our son aware of this in a subtle way, at least until he is old enough to decide with whom does he want to go.

[formflier]

So I see no other choice than to tolerate this and try to keep our son aware of this in a subtle way, at least until he is old enough to decide with whom does he want to go.

So...being in a relationship with a pwBPD sometimes allows us to "catch" some of the disordered thinking.

Black and white, yes and no, tolerate or divorce...


Reality seems to be there are lots of options between tolerate and divorce, although it may take effort to see and implement them.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

Awesome reply, Broken person  

Thanks Cat, that means a lot to me!

But did she want a divorce? My wife is “packing my bage” since day one at least 2-3 times a month, totally seriously.

Olafinski, yes the divorce threats seemed extremely serious at the time. That would go on for months, she didn’t bounce back to normal after a couple of days like you sometimes hear of. The divorce threats only seriously started after having our first child, when she was a couple of months old. My wife was fixated on how inadequate our sex life was and how it was all my fault. The baby was constantly in her arms breast-feeding and sleeping in the bed with her, so sex was pretty impossible. She spoke lots about bringing in a sex partner when I was out at work, even though she was caring for our baby all day. It sounds ridiculous but she seemed completely serious though I know she never did it.
The second major incident which went on for months was in punishment for me saying I was going to start taking photos of our baby and sending them to mum. This to her was such disrespect of her wishes that it spelled the end of our relationship. She refused any physical affection or saying she loved me, for months. The talk was always, “I wish you would leave me, I don’t want you here..” Even though I pay the mortgage and it was my family’s money that went into the house. She knew I would never leave when our baby was so dependent on her. She was also expecting our second child by then. She “forgave” me shortly before the birth. Thank god I found this forum soon after.
Looking back… there is almost a child/teen-like aspect to bpd. They say something crazy, and if you take it seriously and give it lots of attention, especially if you are emotionally triggered and get angry and/or upset, it makes it more real and serious in their mind and makes them less likely to get over it or back down. I wonder how differently things would have been if I hadn’t hated myself so much back then. I struggled to forgive myself for leaving my ex for her. A whole different story. I have finally come to terms with that. I am learning self-compassion, I know that I am a good teacher and parent and I am learning to talk to myself as I would a child, telling myself that I’m doing well and to be proud of myself and that if she wants to be unreasonable or unkind then it’s ok, those are her feelings not mine, and I can walk away and do something nice for myself rather than being angry with myself.

[DogMom2019]

So...being in a relationship with a pwBPD sometimes allows us to "catch" some of the disordered thinking.

Black and white, yes and no, tolerate or divorce...


Reality seems to be there are lots of options between tolerate and divorce, although it may take effort to see and implement them.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

FF... Let's say you are right that there are other options (hehehe). What are they, because at this time, I can only see black and white... Tolerate or divorce, what's in the middle?

[formflier]

So..let's take divorce threats as the example.

Instead of sitting there and listening to (tolerating) the threats "Oh you no good %^&& I'm kicking you to the curb next to the trash!  I want a divorce"...and I'm sure you all can imagine the harangue for the next 30 minutes or longer...

Instead of doing that and/or instead of saying "sure...sign here and we are done"...

"Oh babe, I'm saddened to hear this.  It's not what I want at all.  I'm going to go collect my thoughts."  (and leave)

What if every time there was a "hint" of a divorce threat...you left?

Here is the thing...we know...we KNOW this is not about divorce..right?  (or if that is something we need to discuss..we can)

So they are "getting something" from it...once they stop "getting something"...the behavior should start changing.

Best,

FF

[kells76]

They say something crazy, and if you take it seriously and give it lots of attention, especially if you are emotionally triggered and get angry and/or upset, it makes it more real and serious in their mind and makes them less likely to get over it or back down.

Important point from BP in addition to the angle from FF.

Our engagement with, and the weight we give to, statements from a pwBPD, are powerful factors in how the interaction unfolds. Not the only factors, yet powerful nonetheless, and, also, under our control.

As counterintuitive as it sounds, treating intense, inflammatory statements from the pwBPD as "God's own truth" -- treating those statements analytically -- doesn't stabilize the relationship and doesn't "help make them feel better". I suspect, and this is likely part of why BPD is a disorder, that treating the words they say as "true" and "factual" (like we would with non-PD people) destabilizes them. Part of the disorder seems to be an inability to correctly attribute causation (i.e., "something bad is happening, I can't/won't see that I contributed, therefore I am confused and blame-y and destabilized").

This ties in to FF's comment:

Here is the thing...we know...we KNOW this is not about divorce..right?

Giving "reality" and "weight" to her expressive (vs communicative/analytical) statements isn't going to help your relationship.

It would mean she would be leading with her disorder, and you with your stability would be chasing. Destabilizing.

Often with pwBPD, it's important to move forward with life "as if" they... and how do I say this... as if what they say is expressive of the feeling of the moment versus communicative of a final truth.

Yes, acknowledge what was said, in a way that is coherent with your values, without adding weight and reality. It's not your job to make the pwBPD's statements "more real". If they want to follow up with actions on something they expressed, not your job, their job. Great idea for "acknowledgement" without "giving more weight" from FF:

"Oh babe, I'm saddened to hear this.  It's not what I want at all.  I'm going to go collect my thoughts."  (and leave)

I'm going through this right now with the kids' mom. I've been trying to set up counseling for SD13 for over 6 weeks, because SD13 said that she didn't get traction on it at Mom's. Mom texted last night that "she heard from SD13 that I'm setting up counseling, and thank you so much, but I have already looked into it and have a couple of contacts".

If I treated that statement as "factual communication", then I would drop my efforts because "SD13's mom has it under control".

But what I suspect is going on is:

SD13 "spilled the beans" for whatever reason last night, and Mom is reacting from a place of shame and entitlement ("I'm the REAL mom, and I'm the one who's REALLY getting it done and caring for SD13"). Given that it took me almost 2 months to: get recommendations, see who took insurance, find someone who took insurance who had an opening AND met SD13's preferences, and get an appointment... something tells me that Mom doesn't really have something set up.

If I cancelled the appointment because "Surely Mom is telling me the factual truth", then SD13 will likely lose out. I need to move forward with life "as if" Mom is expressing her feeling of "being the real mom" versus communicating a real thing she has actually done.

[formflier]

So different ways of looking at this "land" for different people.  The examples I use seem to work for me...probably worth trying for yourself for several "episodes" and just observe.

Try not to make a judgment about if it worked..just observe and report back.  

I just remembered another way of looking at this...

Example

pwBPD actual words "I hate you and want a divorce..."

pwBPD actual thoughts "I'm so scared, I'm not even sure what about.."

So...when we hear inflammatory words, instead of "giving them weight"...I would suggest the point of view of..."they are having a hard time finding the right words... to express extreme emotions."

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

Tolerate or divorce, what's in the middle?

Dog mom, I have been on such a journey on this forum over the past year. It has been life-changing for me, as a person who, since childhood I have never believed I could be happy… and then I got into this hellish relationship and marriage… which I am still in. And things are better than ever.
One of the first things I came to face on here was how many things I love that I had given up for my wife. And I wrote a post about this: having showers when I want, taking photos of my children, playing the piano etc. were some examples. It was a huge list, given my feelings that my wife hated me doing anything that brought me any kind of pleasure. And had specifically told me not to do it.
At some point I also came to realise… hang on… these people in bpd family… are telling me that I can do whatever I want with my life? What? I can do these things I have been banned from doing? I wrote another post with my goals, to reclaim some of the power I had given up to my wife.
Slowly but surely, I started doing the things. One of the biggest boundaries I put down was the first, when I told her, “I am going to be taking photos of the baby and sending them to mum, whenever I want to “. This was shortly before I found the forum. And I handled it very wrongly but eventually we got though it. The reason I found the confidence to make this change, even before finding the forum, was because my mother was so upset at never seeing photos of our baby. I made the choice that day that I would give up my marriage if necessary, in order to have the freedom to send baby photos to my mum. After my wife finally got over that, she became more accepting of me breaking the rules. Now she barely notices. Today I was on the phone to the solicitors and she wanted me to ask them a question but couldn’t articulate it. And when I got off the phone, she said, “you’re totally fkn useless!” And whilst I do not wish to be spoken to like that, I just said, “I’m not being spoken to like that” and left the room for some time. I reflected on how such a situation used to descend into a massive row very quickly. Now she is used to me leaving the room on such occasions and doesn’t shriek like she used to.
You can make changes to the way you respond and the choices you make. Have a think about things you would like to be different and whether you can do anything to make it so. My wife had strangely become more mature and reasonable in response to me making such changes. Good luck!

[Good Intentions]

Our engagement with, and the weight we give to, statements from a pwBPD, are powerful factors in how the interaction unfolds. Not the only factors, yet powerful nonetheless, and, also, under our control.

As counterintuitive as it sounds, treating intense, inflammatory statements from the pwBPD as "God's own truth" -- treating those statements analytically -- doesn't stabilize the relationship and doesn't "help make them feel better". I suspect, and this is likely part of why BPD is a disorder, that treating the words they say as "true" and "factual" (like we would with non-PD people) destabilizes them.

Often with pwBPD, it's important to move forward with life "as if" they... and how do I say this... as if what they say is expressive of the feeling of the moment versus communicative of a final truth.

Yes, acknowledge what was said, in a way that is coherent with your values, without adding weight and reality. It's not your job to make the pwBPD's statements "more real".

thank you @kells76 for this excellent commentary and also @formflier for pointing out that it's probably most accurate to characterize our pwBPD's outbursts as an inability to express extreme emotions. Those feelings are very real, but they're also likely very temporary, and I was often guilty of "adding weight/reality" to nonsense in such a way that it actually became a focal point of conversation in a way that it never should have been.

[formflier]

and I was often guilty of "adding weight/reality" to nonsense in such a way that it actually became a focal point of conversation in a way that it never should have been.

Yes..this!  I was the king of this. 

Best,

FF