Completely Lost, Separated and in Process of Divorce BUT LOVE HER

[MobyCloud]

All, I am completely lost. My (our) story is below. Any advice, personal stories, etc. would be greatly appreciated as I determine how to work through this.

I made a commitment to my wife in sickness and in health. There is a lot of sickness going on right now. And I intend to continue my commitment to her. That being said, we have two children (newborn and toddler).

We have dated for 9 years, and have been married for 5. There were red flags I did not pay attention to throughout our relationship, and for ignoring those and enabling her, I hold myself 50% responsible for where we find ourselves today.

When we first met those 9 years ago, I felt a magnetic pull like never before. It was like mother nature pushed us together, fueled by chemicals and imagination. There are amazing qualities in her when she is healthy that shine through; however, when she is "triggered", finds herself lost in her paranoia, etc. it is the most destructive thing our family experiences(experienced).

We had a few bumps early on, which I now view as emotional dysregulation and straight up abuse. The abuse started small, such as throwing glasses/cups and picture frames, and ultimately "ended" with my wife accidentally striking our son when attempting to hit me when I told her that her allegations of cheating were absurd.

That event led to me filing for divorce and seeking custody of our child. After a 6-month separation, I was awarded primary custody at temporary orders. Prior to that temporary orders hearing, she would not discuss reconciliation at all, and repeatedly told me to "f*ck off" and all sorts of other things. She made it beyond clear that we would NEVER get back together. She "flipped" everything she did to me, and made herself out to be the victim. She trashed me to her friends and family with false allegations. She was the abuser within our house, but projected herself as the victim to everyone outside of it. Once she made it clear she was "done" and reconciliation would never happen, I slept with two people in an unhealthy attempt to "get over her." It was unhealthy.

When she came back around after I got primary custody at temporary orders, I told her I had slept with one person in an attempt to be honest with her and let her know what had happened, but I did in fact withhold that there were two people. The reason I did not tell her about the second is because (i) I didn't really know this person at all and it was more of a purely physical hook-up based on looks , barely remember her first name (if she even gave me the real name, and (ii) there was about a 10-year age difference. I did not want her to dive into a spiral of thinking she was no longer "attractive to me", etc. and I withheld the information thinking it was best -- I have grown since then and understand that full transparency required full transparency if my motivation is to give her truth. She admitted to being abusive, and told me literally everything I wanted to hear, including promises of therapy.

Point being, we were not divorced yet, and I was "unfaithful" to her after months of trying to reconcile. She took this to mean that I was not really in love with her as I "gave up" and was "trying to screw other people while proclaiming my love to her." She did not see it as an unhealthy attempt to move on, but a move to have my cake and eat it, too. We decided to reconcile, out of love, but also in an effort to give our son the best chance at having a "nuclear family" and to be tucked in by both parents every night and see our support every day. While we were reconciling, she slept with a random person in a one night stand, "to end it all" because she was so hurt by my distance/slow process in reconciling. It should have been clear at this point, that reconciliation was never going to work, but I was lost in the drama and we expedited our reconciliation after this point. She knew she had lost me, and apologized profusely, and promised therapy for the 10x time in our relationship. We moved back into the same house (marital home), and proceeded to rebuild our life. We managed to get into a good spot before our son's first birthday; however, the boat was severely rocked when she (i) found the social media profile of one of the women I slept with and (ii) message her about our hookup.

What I had told the girl when I cut things off was "I have a chance at reconciling with my wife, and it's the right thing to do because I love her and it will also provide our child a chance at growing up in a loving home" and she proceeded to tell my wife that I "was only getting back together for the kid". This added another layer of doubt, paranoia and general mistrust to our already complicated situation. This woman also told my wife about my second act of unfaithfulness. My wife then went through the trauma of me being unfaithful 6-months into our reconciliation, and it brought it all up as if it just happened. Again, I would not have done this in the mental space I am now, but back then I justified it with the fact she was clear for 6-months that she would never speak or see me again, and that we would never, ever be together and she was 100% certain with that.

She strongly believed I was only with her for the kids, didn't understand why anyone would love her, thought my love had to be conditional and attributed those conditions to (i) for the kids or (ii) sex. The sex was amazing, and connected us on a whole different level. But the sex actually represented a connection that was emotionally / chemically fueled that we lacked in the general context of our relationship due to her verbal, physical, emotional abuse, etc.

We worked through a lot of painful issues, and finally came to be at a "new normal." We eventually got pregnant with our second child. After the birth of our second child, there was two weeks of "bliss" but then the paranoia and violence came rushing back, around the same time (in quantifying time) of our first child. ~4 months-~6 months. I ended up having to restrain her one night to keep her from hitting me, and I saw her actually smile at the restraint.

I told her in January "you have 30 days to get into therapy and stop being abusive or I am leaving with the kids". I did not consider my audience because I was at "wit's end", and I recognize I flared up her abandonment issues. She proceeded to apologize profusely, but ended up leaving with the kids while I was working upstairs. She always plays the victim to outside parties even though she is the abuser in our house. She started spreading false allegations to her friends and families, and even proceeded to lie in court about false abuse allegations and got a member of her family to make up complete lies as well.

We went to court over a protective order / restraining order, and I ended up being awarded one. It provides two-years of forced no contact (physical or verbal), and covers myself and my children. Where it went further is it mandates she do (i) a psychological evaluation; (ii) attend a battering course; and (iii) attend a course that teaches the impact of children witnesses violence in the home. She has supervised visitation.

She has convinced her family (which she has previously accused of sexually, physically and emotionally abusing her) that I am some kind of monster I am not. She convinced her friends the same. I have been trying to hold our family together in hopes that she "comes around" and initiates therapy and understands her inner demons. But I do not understand why I continue to try. It is definitely codependency, but I also know how capable she is, that if she actually went to treatment and came clean to her friends and family about her violent nature that we could be a great family. But it is all in her hands and she continues to play victim, tell people I "tricked" the court and feel like she was cheated. I cannot for the life of me understand if she KNOWs she is lying or if she is believing her own narrative in order to protect her ego.

I love her. Still to this day after false allegations and her web of lies / mental gymnastics. I want my family together. We made a commitment to each other and to each of our children when we brought them into this world. But she NEVER shows up when our FAMILY needs prioritization over her false ego/sense of self / victimization.

I have severe guilt for the situation our children are in, and her lack of accountability is infuriating.

Next steps are divorce, and we cannot even really put that on hold because we are not allowed to talk for two years. So there is no chance for reconciliation or couples therapy, etc. Because she is a threat to my safety and the safety of our children.

HOW can she see the light? HOW can she come to terms with herself as an abuser and tell the true story to her friends and family? I am made out to be more and more of a monster each step of the way, but everyone is giving her confirmation bias because they are "back in her life.

I've had the kids for a month, and will continue to to serve as their primary care taker while working full time. Meanwhile, she is out with friends and more drinking, etc.

The entire situation is making me feel in ways I have never felt before.

Her background:
Adopted
Was in foster care before being adopted
Foster family busted for child abuse
She has claimed adoptive family have sexually, abused and verbally abused her
She kicked out her adoptive family before our last divorce, and has since spun that to her friends and family that I "isolated" her and they all hate me for it
Was raped by an ex
Had an abortion after that
Was in violent relationships before me
Had a miscarriage with another ex
Has been physically violent with me throughout our relationship
I tried to love her through this, but realize I've enabled her.
We went all the way to signing divorce papers last time around, but we shelved it because she made tons of promises that she didnt follow through with
I tried to act in grace and love and forgiveness, but the violent outburts included and were around our  kids
I told her I was at wit's end and going to pull the plug
This scared her and she ran with the kids
She claimed all sorts of false allegations involving financial manipulation, physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, isolation, etc. on my part in the court of law -- this hurt me so much
I've had the kids in my possession and the court has given her supervised visits
Court mandated battering class, psych evaluation, impacts of violence on children
She is hurting herself and our kids by avoiding the truth and its destroying me from the inside.

What would you tell someone in my situation?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[alterK]

Welcome to the forum, Moby. Wow! Are you in a complicated situation, or what? A lot of what you are saying sounds familiar to me, having been in a similar place. Per my ex, everything was my fault, complete with convincing arguments to family, friends, whoever would listen. The night we finally broke up she my son's girlfriend, then attacked me twice with a knife (fortunately missed), all unprovoked except by her own rage. Then she called the cops to have me arrested. I waited in the house, expecting to be taken to jail and then having to deal with that. To my surprise the cops understood what was going on and arrested her instead. That wasn't the end of the story...but...enough said.

Very briefly, the best advice I can give you is to try to straighten out your own head. You cannot make your W change. You can only change yourself. You should take credit for understanding mistakes you have made (we ALL make them!) and calling yourself co-dependent. First steps. But with so much confusion and such a difficult history, you need to get yourself onto firmer ground, emotionally and in terms of practical decision making. If you haven't already, I'd suggest you read a couple of the books listed in the "Tools" section of this website, and if you haven't already, get your a--- into therapy.

[MobyCloud]

Welcome to the forum, Moby. Wow! Are you in a complicated situation, or what? A lot of what you are saying sounds familiar to me, having been in a similar place. Per my ex, everything was my fault, complete with convincing arguments to family, friends, whoever would listen. The night we finally broke up she my son's girlfriend, then attacked me twice with a knife (fortunately missed), all unprovoked except by her own rage. Then she called the cops to have me arrested. I waited in the house, expecting to be taken to jail and then having to deal with that. To my surprise the cops understood what was going on and arrested her instead. That wasn't the end of the story...but...enough said.

Very briefly, the best advice I can give you is to try to straighten out your own head. You cannot make your W change. You can only change yourself. You should take credit for understanding mistakes you have made (we ALL make them!) and calling yourself co-dependent. First steps. But with so much confusion and such a difficult history, you need to get yourself onto firmer ground, emotionally and in terms of practical decision making. If you haven't already, I'd suggest you read a couple of the books listed in the "Tools" section of this website, and if you haven't already, get your a--- into therapy.

I appreciate your guidance. I wish I learned more about what I could do to control the environment before things got so bad. I tried to walk on eggshells / minimize the triggers, but that wore me thin. In reality, there is a lot of helpful information on here about how to validate and help without enabling.

[GaGrl]

You have control ONLY of your own actions and behaviors

.

[mitten]

Moby, that's a lot.  This sounds like a super hard situation.  I sense your disappointment at your marriage and family not being what you imagined it could be and that is completely understandable.  I'm usually all for keeping families together and working through issues, except for when there is physical abuse.  You have to protect yourself and the kids so it feels like you are doing the right thing.  Absolutely.  If you're not seeing a counselor I think you 100% need to start talking to one about codependency.

Additionally, do you think people really believe her about the victim stuff?  I mean, the court ordered you full custody.  That should tell her friends and family something (especially when a mother gets the kids taken away).  Sometimes when a crazy person is complaining people just smile and nod and agree, even when they know something is up, because the situation is awkward.  Could this be the case? 

[MobyCloud]

Moby, that's a lot.  This sounds like a super hard situation.  I sense your disappointment at your marriage and family not being what you imagined it could be and that is completely understandable.  I'm usually all for keeping families together and working through issues, except for when there is physical abuse.  You have to protect yourself and the kids so it feels like you are doing the right thing.  Absolutely.  If you're not seeing a counselor I think you 100% need to start talking to one about codependency.

Additionally, do you think people really believe her about the victim stuff?  I mean, the court ordered you full custody.  That should tell her friends and family something (especially when a mother gets the kids taken away).  Sometimes when a crazy person is complaining people just smile and nod and agree, even when they know something is up, because the situation is awkward.  Could this be the case? 

I have no idea to be honest. She removed herself from her family for 3+ years, and claimed her parents sexually, physically and emotionally abused her. She claimed all sorts of false allegations during our last divorce process, and part of our reconciliation was that she set the record straight with them. She told me she did, and I blindly believed her. So in the background of the past 2 years, they have viewed as "strong for going back for the kids" wherein reality she is the abuser and not a victim. She went to these abusive parents with our kids until I showed up. So it gave me very big doubts about the abusive childhood she has explained to excuse her violence all these years. Why would she go back to this place to feel "safe"? I am starting to understand I likely cannot trust a single aspect of her past, especially her stories about exes being terrible to her.

So her parents have "their baby" back in their life after she "escaped" from the person she claimed 10x different forms of abuse of -- mind you she didn't bring up any of this in court last time, has told police I've never laid a hand on her, etc. She claimed I "isolated" her from them, even though I have text and video evidence of her removing them due to claims of abuse...We did not play the videos or texts in front of her parents during our trial this time around because it seemed improper to rock the boat just to prove a point, but we did play them and show them with just my wife, myself, lawyers and judge present. So they see "their baby" back in their lives and blindly believe her narrative -- I have tried to reach out to them for a month before our trial to bring truth to the forefront and they have ignored all my attempts. Further, they would need to see the actions of their daughter as a byproduct of a personality disorder or similar, that they would have been partially responsible for creating. Further, she grew up witnessing (allegedly) a lot of the things she does now (throwing stuff, hitting, screaming), so they would need to understand their own past and their part in making her who she is. So I am sensing cognitive dissonance that says (IF she is BPD or something, THEN WE attributed to that, SO we cannot accept the situation) coupled with (The more we HATE your husband with you, the LESS you HATE us for the ALLEGED ABUSES). It's a clusterf***.

She was the abuser > claimed she was the victim.
She always takes my attempts at reconciliation / prioritizing the family as being "controlling".
She seeks confirmation bias and goes to people she has removed from her life previously, and they are all too willing to belief and cosign her bullsh*t just to "be there for her".


Re: therapy -- I am meeting with three therapists this week (one is a family member, one is a subject matter expert, and one is in my town for ongoing treatment).

[mitten]

Awesome, glad you're able to talk to a therapist (or 3). 

Okay, based on what you said it sounds like you don't have to worry too much about your reputation and maybe you're more worried about your wife acting publicly as victim than you need to be?  Afterall, you got the kids... and that says it all. 

[MobyCloud]

Awesome, glad you're able to talk to a therapist (or 3). 

Okay, based on what you said it sounds like you don't have to worry too much about your reputation and maybe you're more worried about your wife acting publicly as victim than you need to be?  Afterall, you got the kids... and that says it all. 

I am thinking long-term family dynamics -- birthdays, graduations, special days, weddings, etc. The kind of stuff she told her family, is terrible. I want my kids to have healthy relationships with family, especially given COVID, etc. and lack of strong networks/family support systems during this time. Further, she is going to feed my kids or her family will feed my kids all kind of bullsh*t about me. An older friend of mine dealt with this, and it culminated in his son wrongly hating him for made up accusations at 15-years old, and the son proceeded to become suicidal. The drama and stress severely impacts kids. I want to avoid it all by living in truth. But she for some reason doesn't make it about the kids, she makes it about protecting her false story and ego via an all or nothing mindset.

I am also wanting what is best for my wife. Which means facing her issues, taking responsibility and working on herself. The court ordered evaluation was totally unexpected, but welcomed. It made me "more of a monster" in her eyes and her family's eye, but it might actually be what she needs. She has thanked me multiple times for "knocking her off her ass" and thinking about herself and her situations better.

The issue with her network giving her confirmation bias, is it will preclude her from hitting "rock bottom" so she will just be able to monkey branch/swing on and on and on. For instance, absent sending the proof directly to her family, she has convinced them that I "made her think she had an abusive childhood" ... ... ... I honestly think she believes the lies, and it makes me more and more terrified of her mental stability.

I cannot "make" her do anything -- but I wish there was a way to "reach" her. It would be so dysregulated that she would be screaming at me or punching me or biting me while I was holding our newborn kid, and I would say "look at her, I'm holding her, she has no idea what is going on, just that you're angry, why is she not enough for you to stop? why are we not enough for you to stop?" and she would just keep going until guilt/shame set in, and then of course it was my fault for pushing her to that point, etc.

I see my two kids, and the pain they are going through. I see my efforts and know I have done all that I can. And I see her spending her time and energy calling herself a victim instead of working on herself and holding herself accountable. I see her $1000s of useless purchases that could have been therapy. No matter how angry I get at her, I love her more than that feeling. I just want her to be healthy. Not for me, but for our kids. She is repeating 'the cycle' she and I have worked towards breaking. She has no incentive to come clean to her parents, and no incentive to come clean to her friends.

I wish there was an incentive for her to come clean or she had the maturing and self love to build a true life instead of perpetuating the idea that she is a victim, needs sympathy, and kick the "woe is me" attitude (which her friends she bounces back to all subscribe to).

[GaGrl]

At the moment, your wife has supervised visitation, correct? Who is supervising? Is it a relative, or is it a county/social worker?

Under supervision, she should not be discussing her "victimhood" with the children. If she does, she could lose even supervised visitation.

We would all hope that completing the psychological evaluation and any subsequently ordered counseling /treatment in order to have none supervised visitation with her children would be enough of an incentive for her behavior to improve. That may never be the case.

[MobyCloud]

At the moment, your wife has supervised visitation, correct? Who is supervising? Is it a relative, or is it a county/social worker?

Under supervision, she should not be discussing her "victimhood" with the children. If she does, she could lose even supervised visitation.

We would all hope that completing the psychological evaluation and any subsequently ordered counseling /treatment in order to have none supervised visitation with her children would be enough of an incentive for her behavior to improve. That may never be the case.

County program supervising.
You are correct re: she won't discuss victimhood during this period.
I hope the psychological evaluation is taken seriously. She was indeed ordered to follow the treatment recommendations ordered.
My lawyer and I (he has represented me against her multiple times) are fearful she will attempt malingering, but we just have to wait and see.
It is clearly outside of my hands, and I appreciate you boiling it down to the points.
I am unable to think clearly at this time.

[GaGrl]

What helps you clear your head? Are you exercising, meditating, walking with the children, spending time with friends?

[MobyCloud]

What helps you clear your head? Are you exercising, meditating, walking with the children, spending time with friends?

I have completely lost my sense of self over the past 9 years and do not know what I enjoy besides spending time with my stbxw.

I sold all my music equipment (prior hobby) to pay for drug testing of my children.

I am working 24/7 to keep the money coming in while watching them with my mom (their grandma). There is really no free time. The company I work for is a startup. It is a really trying time.

I am trying to workout / do things for me, but the time is not there.

[GaGrl]

It is going to be very important for you to carve out some time and space just for yourself, even if you do nothing but sit quietly for 30 minutes and listen to some good music.

[alterK]

Moby, you definitely need some recovery! Sounds like you are so exhausted it's hard for you to think. Take GaGirl's advice and at least give yourself some R&R time.

It's only human, after struggling for years catering to a difficult person, to feel demoralized and start to have your sense of self eroded. You obviously are sensitive to the pain and fear underlying your W's behavior. But you cannot fix that. Only she can, and there is no way you can convince her.

I would suggest you not worry about her family, at least at this point. It sounds to me as if you are trying to do triangulating (the books have a lot about this) with them, and that is rarely helpful, even if you succeed for the moment in getting them on your side.

Your only chance for helping your W is to help yourself. You are absolutely 100% entitled to this! Be aware, though, if you start to get into a better state of mind she may at first have trouble with it, because it can appear to be a frightening unknown. She's used to you responding to her in ways she can predict, and that gives her a feeling of being in control, which equals safety. If you change, she feels out of control.

But ultimately, your improvement may open a path for her to improve. Not something you should rely on. It takes years, and it shouldn't be your main motive for improving yourself, but it is all there is.

[mitten]

It is going to be very important for you to carve out some time and space just for yourself, even if you do nothing but sit quietly for 30 minutes and listen to some good music.

Great advice.  I love nothing more than doing absolutely nothing for 30 minutes.  Sometimes I actually have to be mindful about it though, and actually tell myself I'm taking the time while I'm taking it, otherwise it flys by and I don't even feel like I got a break.  If that makes sense?

[MobyCloud]

Moby, you definitely need some recovery! Sounds like you are so exhausted it's hard for you to think. Take GaGirl's advice and at least give yourself some R&R time.

It's only human, after struggling for years catering to a difficult person, to feel demoralized and start to have your sense of self eroded. You obviously are sensitive to the pain and fear underlying your W's behavior. But you cannot fix that. Only she can, and there is no way you can convince her.

I would suggest you not worry about her family, at least at this point. It sounds to me as if you are trying to do triangulating (the books have a lot about this) with them, and that is rarely helpful, even if you succeed for the moment in getting them on your side.

Your only chance for helping your W is to help yourself. You are absolutely 100% entitled to this! Be aware, though, if you start to get into a better state of mind she may at first have trouble with it, because it can appear to be a frightening unknown. She's used to you responding to her in ways she can predict, and that gives her a feeling of being in control, which equals safety. If you change, she feels out of control.

But ultimately, your improvement may open a path for her to improve. Not something you should rely on. It takes years, and it shouldn't be your main motive for improving yourself, but it is all there is.

I wish I came across this website and the "What can I do better" stuff a lot sooner. The way I gave her an ultimatum was the worst way to approach the situation, and assured our destruction. The SET idea would have fixed 50% of the issues, as it would have allowed me to validate her while improving our situation. I am kicking myself / guilty for not doing better on my part. I let her treatment lead me to feeling victimized and put all the pressure on her, which she is incapable of accepting.

[MobyCloud]

Great advice.  I love nothing more than doing absolutely nothing for 30 minutes.  Sometimes I actually have to be mindful about it though, and actually tell myself I'm taking the time while I'm taking it, otherwise it flys by and I don't even feel like I got a break.  If that makes sense?

I have made time for two days to go on walk and workout. I appreciate all your guidance / feedback. I am open to any ideas. I literally feel like a blank slate, and I need to work on myself a lot.

[alterK]

We all make mistakes. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here! Even the most experienced will readily admit they don't always get it right. Don't bother kicking yourself. Try to start to learn how to do things better. You being human, it will take time and practice. Forgive yourself for your mistakes and move on.

[MobyCloud]

I want to ask at the 6-month or 1-year protective order check-in to allow for virtual couples therapy. I cannot shake the feeling that she is strong enough of a person that if she gets a true diagnosis at her psychological evaluation and takes steps in therapy that our family would be better together than apart. How would you reconcile this with the facts of our relationship?

I cannot stop thinking about her, and knowing that I contributed negatively to the situations by not learnings methods to help her. I am definitely codependent, so my plan is to continue therapy.

The kicker is -- we cannot talk pursuant to the protective order. It is eating me up. I love her and miss her, and want her to know it isn't the end if she initiates and makes progress in therapy, holds herself accountable and stops unconsciously/consciously playing the victim / painting me black. Realistically, she probably "hates" me right now, sees me as 100% of the issues due to lack of self accountability, and likely "feel free" or as if she left an "abusive relationship."

I want our kids tucked in every night by biodad and biomom. I want her to see my continued love and patience. I catered too much to her in some ways, and that led her to disrespect me more.

I have learned so much since the start of January (our separation) and cannot get over the fact I did not learn about all this sooner before the final blowup.

TL;DR: I am hoping for a chance to lay ground rules and a plan/path for reconciliation, but understand it won't happen because she is not allowed to legally talk to me. Further, she hates me at this point and has already started with false allegations. I want her to see love in action and commitment to help her cross the bridge, but cannot subject our kids to a whirlwind of a future. My only hope is she realizes the objective truth of the situation after a court ordered psych evaluation, but doubt she will be honest and will attempt malingering. It is out of my hands, but I won't even consider meeting someone new, dating, etc. I don't want to "waste my life" for 2 years, but cannot even discuss reconciliation with her that she isn't likely open to at this time.

[Cat Familiar]

The sad truth is that if she does indeed have BPD, it’s unlikely that she will agree to long term therapy, which, other than divine intervention, is the only way that people with BPD significantly improve. Most people with BPD refuse to make the commitment to doing long term therapy due to the shame and self loathing they feel, and fear that therapy will make them examine parts of themselves that are extremely painful. And as of over seven years here on this forum, I have yet to hear of a case involving divine intervention.

That said, relationships with people with BPD can be greatly improved by their partners learning the Tools (above on the green bar) and utilizing them. You can learn them, but as of present cannot practice them with her, but you can practice them at work and with other people in your life.

Hope is one of the hardest things to give up, especially when our partners are intelligent and well-functioning in other areas. However we’ve got to come to terms with the fact that they are deficient in certain emotional patterns and unlikely to ever change. Things can get better, but it is a rocky road.

[hands down]

Hope is one of the hardest things to give up, especially when our partners are intelligent and well-functioning in other areas. However we’ve got to come to terms with the fact that they are deficient in certain emotional patterns and unlikely to ever change. Things can get better, but it is a rocky road.

Wow this hit deep and I feel it much.  Thank you for typing that out.

[mitten]

Wow this hit deep and I feel it much.  Thank you for typing that out.

What Cat said!  One of the things I always go back to when I'm angry at my uBPDw is RADICAL ACCEPTANCE.  It can be freeing and somewhat empowering.  Only you can change. 

[MobyCloud]

The sad truth is that if she does indeed have BPD, it’s unlikely that she will agree to long term therapy, which, other than divine intervention, is the only way that people with BPD significantly improve. Most people with BPD refuse to make the commitment to doing long term therapy due to the shame and self loathing they feel, and fear that therapy will make them examine parts of themselves that are extremely painful. And as of over seven years here on this forum, I have yet to hear of a case involving divine intervention.

I know I am "wired" differently via my past experience, but I tend to see pain, especially "extreme pain" as the path to a solution to a better life. Whether or not she approaches her subconscious does not change the fact it is controlling her life. I have tried to love her through it all so that she can see I will help pull her out of her shame and self-loathing; however, you are likely correct. She has refused to actually attend therapy. Now she is only going to go through the MMPI per a court order, and I doubt she will honest (attempt malingering for good). I am not looking for divine intervention, but I would do anything for 5 minutes of real talk with her, with her authentic self. She has referred to the "scared little girl inside of her" controlling her life, and wants to let her go. But I think she is most held back by fear of admitting she has "done bad" without labeling or defining herself as a "bad person". She gets too caught up in her head about "not being worthy of love" instead of being in the here and now and experiencing it. The fact was ... if she got an understanding of her personality disorder, and had a game plan to a better life, I would have walked that path with her. But her innate fear of accepting any responsibility for her situation, pushed her away from ever obtaining clarity. It's a nuanced self destruction, and the monkey branching / rebounding to unhealthy friends and family provides the confirmation bias she is consciously / subconsciously seeking that there is "nothing wrong with her." I care this much because I feel at times I love her more than she loves herself / when she is not loving herself, and because I care about my kids. I am prioritizing my kids over her, which has led to the sticky situation above. I refuse to accept at this point that she is the average of "most people with BPD" -- she is honestly one of the most gifted people I have ever met. If there is a success story out there, it is her.

Hope is one of the hardest things to give up, especially when our partners are intelligent and well-functioning in other areas. However we’ve got to come to terms with the fact that they are deficient in certain emotional patterns and unlikely to ever change. Things can get better, but it is a rocky road.

Likely true, but hard to hear. I don't care if it's 1/3/5 years. If there is a rocky road to better, I will walk it with her. But only in a way that don't subject our kids to the rockiness.

I am trying to get us (our family) to go this way: >^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>^>
All of her conscious / subconscious actions and lack of personal responsibility are taking her this way: <V<V<V<V<V<V<V<V

I think I was finally painted to black.
It drives me crazy that instead of accepting herself as a physically, verbally and emotionally abusive wife/spouse and seeking help for the benefit of our family, that she painted me as the abuser and ran back to family that abused her and friends who don't know her.

[MobyCloud]

Your only chance for helping your W is to help yourself.

But ultimately, your improvement may open a path for her to improve. Not something you should rely on. It takes years, and it shouldn't be your main motive for improving yourself, but it is all there is.

After re-reading everything -- this was really helpful in my current state to carve out time for myself.

[mitten]

It seems like you're continuing to think that a person with BPD can acknowledge their faults, take responsibility, apologize and agree to long term treatment.  Now that you're starting to learn more about BPD, how might that change your expectations for how much your wife can change? 

[MobyCloud]

It seems like you're continuing to think that a person with BPD can acknowledge their faults, take responsibility, apologize and agree to long term treatment.  Now that you're starting to learn more about BPD, how might that change your expectations for how much your wife can change? 

My hope is on a post-initiating treatment perspective, not how she is *now*. I understand the wall she is hitting, but in understanding her in the context of reasonable expectations to have of her, I see that her "deficiencies" are not entirely her fault, and that is why I hold out hope. Hope that she makes peace with her past and starts the healing journey. The life in front of me keeps changing for the better since she's been gone. But it is bittersweet type change. I just got an offer (today) for a new role that pays 60% more, and would have provided much needed help at home for her to relax more and attend therapy / heal. I think I am struggling with radical acceptance. HAD she taken me up on my thirty days ultimatum (which I realize was wrong), we would have a true diagnosis, treatment plan, marriage counseling "contract" between us and NOW more money coming in each month, ability to have help around the house and with the kids, and spare income to rediscover ourselves. But she is not here to reap these benefits and this potential life. Instead she is working three levels below the level she was at prior to being a SAHM to afford her own place to live / legal fees / divorce fees. All because she cannot accept responsibility or hold herself accountable. I feel guilty "blasting off" on a new life path with our kids and "leaving her behind", but recognize its her decision and in her hands.

[mitten]

I just got an offer (today) for a new role that pays 60% more, and would have provided much needed help at home for her to relax more and attend therapy / heal.

CONGRATS on this opportunity!  Hope you can take time to celebrate it.  It must be hard not having your wife around to join in the celebration. 

[Good Intentions]

The fact was ... if she got an understanding of her personality disorder, and had a game plan to a better life, I would have walked that path with her. But her innate fear of accepting any responsibility for her situation, pushed her away from ever obtaining clarity. It's a nuanced self destruction, and the monkey branching / rebounding to unhealthy friends and family provides the confirmation bias she is consciously / subconsciously seeking that there is "nothing wrong with her." I care this much because I feel at times I love her more than she loves herself...I refuse to accept at this point that she is the average of "most people with BPD" -- she is honestly one of the most gifted people I have ever met. If there is a success story out there, it is her.

It drives me crazy that instead of accepting herself as a physically, verbally and emotionally abusive wife/spouse and seeking help for the benefit of our family, that she painted me as the abuser and ran back to family that abused her and friends who don't know her.

@MobyCloud - thank you for sharing your story. I see a lot of yours in mine.

I'm 30 y/o and my 27 y/o now ex-GF (dated for 4 years) with diagnosed BPD is an incredibly lovable woman, and I have had a very hard time letting go after she discarded me.

I was the one who first became BPD-conscious between the 2 of us, and I did my absolute best to gently broach the subject, research the topic/gather information, suggest treatment possibilities, etc. Similar to what I think you're describing, my mentality has always been "yeah, my partner has this mountain to climb, but I want to choose to accept her. I want to help her with this complex challenge, I want to show her that it's not so scary, and encourage her to put in the work."

But I'm coming to grips with the fact that meaningful change is internally motivated. My desire to see her work on herself and get healthy, my effort to educate myself, my willpower to stick it out through the dark days, are completely independent from the most critical piece - does she think this is the problem that it is? And is ignoring the problem altogether (potentially losing you/her family in the process) a less discomforting outcome than dealing with the suppressed feelings of shame & self-loathing (which we can assume she would have a difficult time processing)?

I can greatly relate to your line of thinking - for me, if I'm trying to "put myself in their shoes", and my partner was coming to me with a message of "hey, here's a big issue that I see you're gonna have to deal with, and I know it's intimidating but if you want to commit to doing something about it I'm here for you all the way"...I would be grateful! It would make it easier to embrace the ugly truths about myself because the person who I'm afraid might leave me is saying that they're sticking with me despite the issue...

But the problem with that logic is that I can't in any way predict how that message would be interpreted by a pwBPD...and like you alluded to, that fear of acknowledgement of who they really are can be so strong that it "wins out" over the desire to maintain relationships with people they claim to love the most.

[MobyCloud]

CONGRATS on this opportunity!  Hope you can take time to celebrate it.  It must be hard not having your wife around to join in the celebration. 

I appreciate your kind words. I care more about bringing her on this journey and a different path and ability for us to take a different path than any kind of celebration, but I definitely understand where you are coming from in your kindness!

[MobyCloud]

And is ignoring the problem altogether (potentially losing you/her family in the process) a less discomforting outcome than dealing with the suppressed feelings of shame & self-loathing (which we can assume she would have a difficult time processing)?

This is her brain.