Two questions please

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi

I do know a lot about BPD but also learning more every day. Two things I need to ask please

1 why are they not capable of showing any empathy for those they are closest too? He never shows me any empathy when I feel sad or low. No care or concern. Yet when he is low or sad if I don’t show empathy I’m cold and nasty. Some random person could be going through a hard time and he will almost have tears in his eyes when talking about their situation. He’s never been that way with me. He also is getting worse with showing empathy towards our children when they are upset.

2. Are any of you concerned your children will develop BPD from being around your partner? I know my husbands mum definitely had it, his great grandfather killed himself when he assumed everything had gone wrong but it had in fact not gone wrong. Both my daughters are displaying behaviours like his. One gets angry easily and shouts at me when I ask her to do anything. The other just seems to have a lot of his personality traits. She is the one I worry about the most. Can’t commit to hobbies, keeps feeling low, can be unreasonable at times also. However if she is out of line, I tell her then a few minutes later she will come through and apologise for being rude etc which he isn’t capable of.

Thanks

[Destiny 37]

Hi

I do know a lot about BPD but also learning more every day. Two things I need to ask please

1 why are they not capable of showing any empathy for those they are closest too? He never shows me any empathy when I feel sad or low. No care or concern. Yet when he is low or sad if I don’t show empathy I’m cold and nasty. Some random person could be going through a hard time and he will almost have tears in his eyes when talking about their situation. He’s never been that way with me. He also is getting worse with showing empathy towards our children when they are upset.

2. Are any of you concerned your children will develop BPD from being around your partner? I know my husbands mum definitely had it, his great grandfather killed himself when he assumed everything had gone wrong but it had in fact not gone wrong. Both my daughters are displaying behaviours like his. One gets angry easily and shouts at me when I ask her to do anything. The other just seems to have a lot of his personality traits. She is the one I worry about the most. Can’t commit to hobbies, keeps feeling low, can be unreasonable at times also. However if she is out of line, I tell her then a few minutes later she will come through and apologise for being rude etc which he isn’t capable of.

Thanks

[T0M]

1 why are they not capable of showing any empathy for those they are closest too? He never shows me any empathy when I feel sad or low. No care or concern. Yet when he is low or sad if I don’t show empathy I’m cold and nasty. Some random person could be going through a hard time and he will almost have tears in his eyes when talking about their situation. He’s never been that way with me. He also is getting worse with showing empathy towards our children when they are upset.

Thanks

I don't think, atleast it is not the case in my situation, that this is a common BPD trade. On the rare occasions that I'm sad or angry about something, she does got my back. However, and that is maybe the trade-off, only when I'm sad or angry with something that doesn't involve her. So maybe that is what you need to be looking for?

Funny thing is that my GF actually gets frustrated by the fact that I'm always stable and positive. She thinks it is suspicious, and that I'm hiding something from her.  So every now and than I crawl against her in the sofa, and tell her that I got a hard day at work.

[T0M]

Can't help you with your second question

[ThanksForPlaying]

There are several reasons pwBPD lack empathy, none of which are very logical.

One explanation, I think, is the strict role-based thinking of pwBPD. Look up triangulation and the roles involved.

PwBPD see no gray areas - everything is static and unchanging, and will be that way forever (in their mind, which of course often changes to the complete opposite). So for pwBPD, in each relationship, there can be only one victim, one persecutor, and one savior.  If they are the victim, there is no room for ANOTHER victim, and they basically feel like "hey, stay out of my role - go back to your savior role".  Offering empathy/compassion would be giving up the benefits of the victim role.

Of course we know in reality, everyone can be all three roles at different times, often at the SAME time - life has a lot of gray areas.

Sometimes we can BOTH be the victim, but ALSO both be the savior/comforter for each other. Say our flight was canceled for example - we are both upset/victimized by the airline, but we can also both cheer each other up and "save" each other and enjoy our trip anyway. Not for pwBPD - if they feel victimized, they are the victim and you are the persecutor - it's somehow your fault the flight was canceled.

Anyway, I'm getting off track. Basically, it's rigid role-based thinking. If they are the victim, you cannot also be the victim, so they can't give you any empathy/sympathy. They feel more comfortable with you in the savior role, comforting them.

ETA: it's good that your daughter is able to apologize or feel empathy. It's like switching in and out of roles. Because in life, there are no "roles" and we all have a little of each trait in us all the time. It's ok to feel victimized, accept "saving" from others, and also help/save others. It's even ok to "persecute" when we tell others what we don't like about their actions - standing up for ourselves is a bit persecutory. It's ok to be all these roles in the same day, but none of them should be TOO rigid or last TOO long.

[T0M]

There are several reasons pwBPD lack empathy, none of which are very logical.

One explanation, I think, is the strict role-based thinking of pwBPD. Look up triangulation and the roles involved.

PwBPD see no gray areas - everything is static and unchanging, and will be that way forever (in their mind, which of course often changes to the complete opposite). So for pwBPD, in each relationship, there can be only one victim, one persecutor, and one savior.  If they are the victim, there is no room for ANOTHER victim, and they basically feel like "hey, stay out of my role - go back to your savior role".  Offering empathy/compassion would be giving up the benefits of the victim role.

Of course we know in reality, everyone can be all three roles at different times, often at the SAME time - life has a lot of gray areas.

Sometimes we can BOTH be the victim, but ALSO both be the savior/comforter for each other. Say our flight was canceled for example - we are both upset/victimized by the airline, but we can also both cheer each other up and "save" each other and enjoy our trip anyway. Not for pwBPD - if they feel victimized, they are the victim and you are the persecutor - it's somehow your fault the flight was canceled.

Thank you so much for this explanation. I never looked at it that way, but it does make a lot of sense.

Although in my case, my GF victimizes herself all the time. Sorry for this, sorry for that, sorry that the food isn't any good (nothing wrong with the food) sorry that I look like a mess (she looks very nice) sorry for my house, sorry for my car...

She also acts like she is the only victim of us living an hour drive away from each other. That she is tired of living out of a suitcase. That when it is starting to cost her more energy than she gets out of it, it is not needed anymore; That she doesn't feel like having a home anymore... And so on and on. I always try to sheer her up when she is in one of those moods, but this resulted in her thinking I'm ok with the situation.

It feels like if I put myself also in a victim role, she gets her fears acknowledged. And I think that will even be worse.

[PeteWitsend]

1) I agree with what others have posted here.  pwBPD's black and white thinking makes it hard to understand and empathize with others, particularly if that person happens to be "painted black" at the moment.  In those times, to a pwBPD, they deserve everything bad that happens to them.

I also think their status as "the victim" makes it hard for them to empathize with others; they are always the one in need of support & sympathy, so if/when those around them suffer, they're really not capable of reacting.  In my own experience, BPDxw would often seem annoyed or upset with me when something bad would happen to me, because it was like now she was put on to offer support or be kind, and that was just not what she wanted to ever be doing.

And lastly, I think they're very emotionally immature.  I recall when I was first learning about BPD, that ALL people exhibit BPD traits at some times, usually when very young, and again in their teenage years, but as they mature, they grow out of these behaviors.  pwBPD never do.  A mature adult accepts their responsibilities - cleaning the house, earning a living, supporting their family, and taking care of those around them.  pwBPD really don't do these things well, or only do them reluctantly, and sometimes not at all.

2) I agonized over this possibility - that my D would adopt BPDxw's behavior - and that's really the only reason I stayed married as long as I did, out of concern for our young daughter. 

A couple things helped me move on:

First - what kind of example was I setting?  Our D was getting to be old enough to understand what was being said.  What was she thinking about me when she'd hear BPDxw falsely accusing me of being interested in other women, looking to cheat, looking to leave, etc.?  And was I demonstrating to my D that it was OKAY to stay in a relationship with someone who would treat you this way?   I was not okay with that!

Second - pretty much everyone told me that if I stayed in my D's life and was a role model for her on how an adult should behave, the damage my BPDxw would do would only be temporary.  This advice came from friends, family, and professionals.  Our D's therapist said that kids know more than we realize, and are harder to fool than we think; when my D would see one thing, but her BPD mom would tell her another, she'd question it, and her mom would lose credibility.  When the same thing wouldn't happen with me, she'd learn to trust me. 

I've followed that approach with her, whenever she comes to me to "verify" something she's not sure of.  I ask her what she thinks happened, and try to support it with whatever objective facts. 

For example, at one point, my D seemed very upset after I picked her up, and told me "Mom said you abandoned me and her and didn't want a family."  I told her that was not true, and I was there with her now, and saw her every time I was allowed to under the divorce rules. 

She calmed down a bit, and said "I'm not sure who to believe."  I countered that she didn't need to believe anyone, just trust herself and what she saw.  And then I pointed out I got a house nearby so I could be close to her, and I would not have done that if I planned to "abandon" her, or didn't want a family. 

She nodded, and that was the last I heard from my Daughter on the topic, although I am fairly certain my BPDxw still tells her things like this.

[judee]

I do recognise question 1 about empathy with my ex wBPD. My take on it is they tend to overenmesh, meaning they hardly make a difference between themselves and you (and your children) this doesn't happen with people further away from them.
Their main issue is shame and  guilt. My ex was shamed a lot by his father and subsequently became shaming to himself- and to me.
When tell him a problem he portrays is as my weakness and he will tell me  I have to solve it as quick as possible so it isn't going to affect our relationship.
pretty horrible eh? Suddenly all empathy is gone.
I think it its because the shaming voice they constantly hear in their head just turns to you.

[BigOof]

1. Why are they not capable of showing any empathy for those they are closest to?

Lack of cognitive empathy (oppose to emotional empathy).

2. Are any of you concerned your children will develop BPD from being around your partner?

Try reading "Children of Mothers with Borderline Personality Disorder: Identifying Parenting Behaviors as Potential Targets for Intervention."

40-60% of BPD transmission is heritability and the rest is mirroring the parent's actions/dysregulations/fears.

[ForeverDad]

All people have a variety of traits - we are not robots off an assembly line - and as long as they are within a normal range then the people are reasonably normal.  It's when the traits are at one extreme or the other too much of the time that we say a person has a personality disorder or dysfunction.

Years ago I read this perspective... People who may meet, work with or have some incidental exposure to pwBPD (or other acting-out disorder) may notice something is "off" with that person but the ones closest to the pwBPD see the more extreme poor behaviors become more evident.  And what is closer than a spouse or BF/GF?  Have you heard of the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) we experience?  Since we get more private "behind closed doors" time with the pwBPD and our relationship becomes more committed then they feel free to "let it all hang out" noticing we feel obligated to stay with them.

Years ago we had an emoji here that we could insert when talking about the children, that if we saw some BPD traits in the children they were likely reflecting "fleas" from exposure to the problem parent, they were not necessarily the children's core issues.

As PeteWitsend described, if you have as substantial a part of the kids' lives as possible then your presence will be able to counter much of the negative impact from the other parent.  Sadly, there will still be an impact but you will have limited it.  You will be an example of normalcy and stability that the children may not be able to name in the early years but it is positive as time goes on.

Some arrive here thinking they have to stay in the relationship or marriage "for the kids" but the reality is you can't really be there 24/7.  You have to sleep, work and a variety of other activities when you're not there.  And probably setting a poor example by appeasing or submitting to the disordered parent.  Many here accepted that the behaviors were bad enough that ending the adult relationship was the only practical alternative.  That's not all bad, (1) you would be able to establish a stable and healthy home for the kids while with you and (2) you would be setting a fine example for the kids.