Not validating the invalid, how?

[15years]

What do I do instead of validating things I cannot agree with?

A conversation about the Russian invasion of Ukraine started out well with her having valid points on the human nature and why conflicts arise. It slowly escalated to a bit weird but still kind of logical statements, such as that porn is contributing to war because it demoralizes men, to a bit less logical statements that being too accepting of homosexuality and LGBTQ in general is bad for the society and also somehow connected to war. It's always a lot of these male-female arguments, don't know how to handle those as a man.

Then the final level was her view on our situation.

--> I once threatened her with calling the cops when she was raging and being violent towards me, and another time I told her that I will call the child protective services to make her stop hitting me in front of the kids (she hit me with a toy repeatedly in front of the kids). And also I have told her in desperation that I will move out and another time that I want to divorce her.

So in today's conversation she asked if it would be her or me that would go out to war if the war came to our country. It was a rhetorical question, her point being that she's not the threat. If the police have to come to protect me against her, then she would be the one going to war too. When she's violent towards me she thinks I should tell her that no matter how much she hits me I will never leave her, also because I have deserved her anger towards me. This would make her feel safe and that she can rely on me, that I have a conviction that I follow always. That I want to protect my woman and that I understand her feelings.

Well this was just some details to draw the picture. Makes me sad because I enjoy talking to her but more and more conversations escalates in weird directions and I don't know how to respond. I try not to JADE but don't know what to do instead, so I kind of agree with everything she says to avoid conflict and it makes me scared for where it's all going.

This wasn't even a fight, she wasn't angry so that makes it harder.

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[kells76]

One thought is that the longer she stays on one topic track, uninterrupted, the more chances she has to "make it weird" and bring it all back to you being the problem.

As you think back to previous discussions and conversations, when they get long, have they generally "usually gotten weird" at the end? 100% of the time? 90% of the time? Or are there times when discussions can go long and yet don't "get weird"? Curious about how often this happens.

I wonder how it would go for you to be honest about what's true for you and also to disrupt the one-track habit where "all roads lead to 15years being the problem".

It might look like this:

"babe, this is fascinating... lots of food for thought... I'm going to make some tea and then come back to this... do you want any tea?"

The part where you are being true to your values is that you do think the start of the conversation was fascinating.

The part where you start trying "disruption" of her pattern is that you don't "buy the story" that you HAVE to stay in the discussion "all the way through". Take a break, be genuine if you do think it's an interesting discussion, only say you'll be back if you will, but...

disrupt the pattern where once she's on that "downhill slope" she almost can't (won't? debatable) stop the inevitable crash into "and 15years is the source of all the world's troubles, especially mine".

I'd be curious how that "gentle disruption" goes.

Side note, apparently some mental health service dogs are trained to do something similar -- when their person is about to have a meltdown, they "know" to see the signs and disrupt the meltdown before it has a chance to take root. Typically it's with physical contact. With pwPDs and us it's different, yet in a sense we can still try disrupting the cycle by making some brief physical distance before returning.

[alterK]

Kells is putting it gently. I'll be a little more crude. The point is, if a conversation is making you uncomfortable, you don't have to stay in it.

It sounds like there's a certain point in these difficult conversations where you start feeling uncomfortable. Maybe you can look back a few minutes and realize where things started going off the rails. You are within your rights to pay attention to that feeling. You seem to know at that point that things are going further and further from a reasonable exchange. That's when you are tempted to JADE, and you know that won't fix things.

So you can end the conversation. Hopefully, you can do it in one of the tactful ways Kells suggested. I just noticed, her example actually starts with a little validation before the opt out. But if you can't do that you can just leave the room. It's slightly possible that, given time, your W might learn by watching you, but even if she never does, you will feel better.

[15years]

Kells,

taking breaks could help in many ways for me personally, I haven't done this much and I'm generally bad at breaking conversation smoothly. Either way she's thinking about serious subjects for a certain portion of the day, the rest of the day is filled with thinking about her interests. If we stop talking she will continue to figure out things by herself and reporting back to me later. Of course that's better than me listening to everything.

I wouldn't say she blames every world problem on me, it's kind of the other way around, she thinks about problems in the world and notices that this also concerns me. She will find connections between me and Putin. Of course there's connections as we're both human males.

I'm not sure how often conversations turn weird. Usually I see her logic clearly after a long discussion, and when we're not together i forget her logic and the cycle starts again. Reminds me of cults and cult leaders. I don't openly disagree with her often, rather I try to pick up what makes sense and develop the logic from that and this way we can have great conversations and often I don't even notice anything weird. She is really smart and I am not narrow minded so I think we think outside the box a lot. Sometimes it gets weird and I'm not comfortable with that. And as soon as the discussion is about me I struggle to say anything at all.

I'll definitely try the tea-idea specifically :D

[15years]

alterK, thank you for your insight!

I have a tendency to easily resort to feeling guilt and it twists my reality if she accuses me of being arrogant or playing tough. Still it's true that I'm allowed to pay attention to and respect my own feelings. And I have been thinking about how my actions allows her to continue dominating me.

[Notwendy]

I can understand this is difficult. It comes down to having a firm boundary about who you are, what is true, and what isn't true about you.

One idea that helped me was to think of something very absurd- although comparing you to Putin is quite out there, your start to consider her point of view- yes, you are both males. Go to something impossible. Pink elephant or something like that.

You are absolutely certain you are not a pink elephant and being told you are one - can not possibly be true and it doesn't make you one. If someone thought you were a pink elephant, it may not even bother you. You'd think that was crazy.

People can day anything they want to us. Having an emotionally healthy boundary means we consider it- if it's true, then we accept it. If it's not true- we don't.

The issue with the interpersonal discussions is that the accusations are not as obviously absurd as being called an elephant and so you begin to doubt your own self identity and consider the possibility that perhaps they are true- but the same process helps- is this true or not true? If not then there's no need to defend it. Would you spend time trying to convince someone you were not an elephant if they said you were?

If it isn't true- then there is no reason to defend it. In fact, defending it somehow validates it because it it isn't true - then why do that? This is where the conversation needs to stop. One clue is how you are feeling as AfterK suggested.

If you are feeling confused and rattled- a pause is an idea. "I hear what you are saying and I need to think about that". Yes, you have validated that you heard her but can't reply right now.

[NonnyMouse]

My uBPDw gets obsessed with the latest world crisis. To the extent that she will change our plans for the future. Politics/politicians, Covid, BLM (she is mixed race), Ukraine-Russia. On top of the usual, "Why does everybody hate me?" A lot of her views are fine, just held too powerfully. But when she gets to extremes I just try to give out empathetic vibes via body language without agreeing with her. It's upsetting though that I can't have any deep conversation with her, and there's no possibility of discussing nuances.

On a side note, it's generally a useful skill to be able to agree to disagree these days, given how people's views on everything are polarizing! However, while you can say, "Let's agree to disagree!", to most people, that's not something you ever want to say to a pwBPD!

[15years]

Thank you Notwendy and Nonnymouse.

The pink elephant example. When I try not to jade I instead end up trying to understand her and I'm usually good at grasping for the most logical thing in an illogical statement.

For example I bought a pack of tea with a nude oriental looking animated woman on it. It was from a normal grocery store so I didn't pay any attention to it. She later criticized me harshly for buying this knowing our history and she even attacked me when I didn't know what to say. The logic I picked up was that yes I had bought this myself and it sounds like an excuse to say I didn't notice it then and not later when we drank the tea. Her conclusion was that I bought it to make her jealous because I'm jealous, so she meant I was projecting my jealousy onto her. If I told her that's not true she became furious and then she brings in the old stuff, that I've watched porn so why am I pretending to be innocent. The oriental girl on the tea was nothing like my wife which made her upset.


Yes saying let's agree to disagree seems to not be taken too well.

[Notwendy]

How did you respond to the tea accusation?

One aspect about boundaries is holding on to your own reality. Looking from the outside, that kind of projection is pretty far fetched- to imagine all that over a box of tea. Advertisements often include good looking people- men and women- to sell a product, so it seems there could be many opportunities to "read" something like that over things people buy but it's strange thinking to do that. You bought the tea for the tea.

When something seems absurd to you, defending it (JADE ) gives it more validation than it should have. You don't want to validate the invalid. On the other hand, telling her this is crazy or defending it feels invalidating to her.

What do you do?

A well used line on my part is " I am sorry you feel that way". It means, I heard what you are feeling and know that bothers you, but it doesn't defend or validate the accusation. Once it's said- there's not much to argue about. If she pushes the topic, repeat " I am sorry you feel that way" and then disengage. Having an argument over the picture of the person on the box of tea isn't worth that.

If she seriously keeps pushing, I'd take the tea out of the box, put it in a different container and dump the box. Now, while this might be considered coddling or giving in, that box might not be worth the grief of her making a big deal over it each time you make a cup of tea. Since this is her feeling, doing this may not change her feelings- the box solution is external, it doesn't solve her feeling, but if you like this brand of tea and want to keep buying it- but it becomes a battle ground, I'd choose this rather than go to battle over it. However, the boundary is not discussing it, JADE, or going into the "reasons" you bought it. It's her kitchen too and if she doesn't want that picture in it, then just discard it. It's just a box.

Or you hold your boundary and say you want the tea and let it be. Your choice, but sometimes one has to choose their battles.

[15years]

The first thing I said was "I'm sorry you feel that way" and it escalated from there. She demands an explanation and she will absolutely not accept anything other then the truth (= her feelings really). How do I respond to questions like "why did you buy it?", I can't answer "I'm sorry you feel that way". She is triggered if I try to make it about her. It's hard for me to exit when she physically and mentally blocks me from leaving. I feel like the only way to end a fight is giving in totally and that won't work immediately because I don't know what she wants to hear. The argument ends or is placed on the bookshelf when I know what she want to hear and I say it.

Her last conclusion is that I'm the epitome of an easy target for manipulators, I don't respect myself and desperately want to be accepted at the cost of myself AND her. So manipulators trick me to be impressed with for example pornography (and also tea?), so I'm a dummy they can manipulate however they want(?). Writing this I actually do see some logic in it and usually I would share that insight with her, which proves to her she was right all along.

I was about to throw the package but she did it before I got to.

[alterK]

There are different opinions on this board, and I will give you a different one from NotWendy's. You are free to choose either, or none. No offense will be taken.

A pwBPD will typically bring out their heavy artillery in response to a small, or nonexistent, threat. It may help to realize that part of their problem is that they have a very limited set of tools to deal with routine problems. Very little ability to gauge what is a real threat and what isn't. Very little ability to reason their way through something that bothers them. This is why you get the big guns so often.

When your W is objecting to the tea she is playing a dominance game, which she is compelled to do because of her own feelings of inferiority and insecurity, which she is unlikely to admit to. There may be wiser people here who can think of effective verbal answers to what she is saying, but I can't.

If I were in your shoes and trying to be mindful, I would feel pissed, but also pity her for becoming so upset over something so trivial. Since any verbal response is likely to exacerbate things, you can just push the package of tea over to her side of the table (putting the ball into her court, so to speak), get up, and leave the room. This is a non-verbal, minimally aggressive way of setting a boundary. You are communicating "This is your problem, not mine."

You will doubtless have a barrage of invective hurled at your back. If she tries to physically block you, just politely keep asking her to move and wait her out. Either way, she is likely to run out of steam after a while. You may even return to the room later to find the package of tea still on the table!

You are accustomed to placating your W because that is the momentary path of less pain. I think you have come to this forum because you have realized that this will never make anything better. Changing your behavior, though, is definitely a struggle.

[Notwendy]

I like that response too. There isn't one single way to respond, and not responding, not engaging is one choice.

I agree with the concept that if someone has a limited set of tools, they use what they have whether the incident is minor or not. I am concerned though that this particular person has a history of physical violence and one need to be prepared to deal with that if the situation escalates.