divorcing, 1 baby, undiagnosed wife but she sure fits the BDP pattern

[worstmirageever]

Hi all,

First a long intro (last paragraph is my concern):

I'm in a hotel now for the first time. I am divorcing my undiagnosed but BPD-pattern-matching wife. Some 911 calls did it for me (nothing really bad happened, only bad arguments and struggles) - and it still took me a month to finally take the decision to file for divorce and go to a hotel.

I still struggle to understand that by staying things were not going back to  be good or the amazing way there once were. But that the emotional rollercoaster would continue.

After years of nonsense and endless bickering. I am/was emotionally disturbed by all of this until I started to go to therapy and the idea that the problem was not actually (only) me really started to click.

To avoid legal fights I'll give my wife for now physical custody of the baby. She wants to keep the baby, otherwise she said she would be devastated and "fight until the end" for her baby.

She's not from the US, she has no family here. She has some not-so-close friends.

I also kind of agree that taking away the baby from her might be too much. Particularly now during the divorce stage.

She is the mother after all, and carried the baby inside of her, and didn't have a good post c-section recovery. She is usually good with the baby, makes her laugh, takes care of her.

Yet my wife (we are not completely legally divorced yet) is a mess (on top of all the BPD signs). She struggles keeping a tidy house, for example. She is all over the place wanting to do a thousand things at the same time, and obviously failing to achieve them all. She has a very precarious financial situation to say the least, and will depend on the childcare/spousal support/half of my retirement savings to survive in the meanwhile.

She is not eager to find a job. She wants to study, earn a degree and find a better job. I supported her in this idea during our marriage. She never did follow through because she "never had time" because of "all the housework". So I ended up being blamed. I always tried to suggest alternatives (food delivery, laundry service, etc). She never really cleaned the tiny apartment, but a cleaning service wouldn't be out of the question either if I saw her studying and all. I do still believe she'd really want to achieve all of this. Be a better person, etc.

I support her. I want the best for her. That will trickle down to the baby no doubt, and to me. Yet I have to divorce her.

What makes me write this post:
I'm pretty distressed thinking on the emotional development of the child, and how to avoid the emotional turmoils that living with her mom could entail.

Any advice?
Thanks

[BigOof]

Read or listen to "Understanding the Borderline Mother."

The book is profound and will give you a much better understanding of the position you're putting your child in.

[PeteWitsend]

...

I support her. I want the best for her. That will trickle down to the baby no doubt, and to me. Yet I have to divorce her.

What makes me write this post:
I'm pretty distressed thinking on the emotional development of the child, and how to avoid the emotional turmoils that living with her mom could entail.

Any advice?
Thanks

Her feelings here are immaterial; she's disordered... she doesn't know what she wants, or what will make her happy.  Really, nothing will.  So you should not concern yourself with her wants now, but with your infant child.

I went through a similar situation; BPDxw was from a foreign country, and was undiagnosed.  She would go to therapy occasionally, but come home and claim the therapist agreed it was everyone else's fault (her parents, me, my family, etc.).  Marital counseling - if I didn't just sit there and listen to her complain about me - would devolve into her screaming at me or at the counselor if they intervened.

She was also undiagnosed, but ticked most of the boxes, and I gather might have been abused as a child, from the bits and pieces of her childhood she'd share.  She wasn't a very reliable witness though; she had a lot of trouble ever admitting fault with herself.

in my case, BPDxw was actually a professional, and has managed to get her career off the ground, although she was a stay-at-home mom for our daughter's first year.  Had I divorced then, I would be in the same situation you are, but it would've been more financially difficult for all of us, though better in the long run for me, and probably for our daughter.  It's impossible to know for sure though...

I managed to stay in our marriage for 5 1/2 years, at which time I finally threw in the towel.  I wanted out about 1 1/2 years into it, but felt duty bound to try to make it work.  Around 3 years of marriage, people finally suggested BPD was an issue.  The last two years, I was honestly just marking time. 

She was working when I finally filed for divorce and had her mom living with us, which I felt helped that there was another, more stable, adult in the home after I left, but who knows?

I'll tell you these things: your focus in the divorce should be providing your child with the most stable possible home.  If that means fighting more NOW, rather than later when you'll have an uphill battle to change the terms of your divorce decree, so be it. 

Do not concern yourself with the needs or feelings of a disordered person; they don't know what they want, and won't ever be happy.  She will not appreciate your concern or concessions you make; all she knows it that you're abandoning her, and need to be punished, and she will try everything she can afford in order to make life as miserable for you as possible, regardless of how kindly you behave to her. 

You don't need to be cruel or aggressive here, but you need to put your child's needs first.  To that end, you need to have primary or at the very least equal rights to designate the primary residence, school, etc. for your child, so when your soon-to-be XW quickly finds a new guy (which she will), you're not stuck scrambling to move closer to wherever they end up in order to remain part of your child's life.

I can share more later. 

[worstmirageever]

Very insightful, thanks.

I am trying to avoid arguments and legal fights now. But after reading your post it sounds like I'm putting them off for later.

She says she won't get married again, but who knows.

I 'promised' her I wouldn't take the baby away from her, though. In fact, I am yet to cancel a custody petition I submitted to family court.

A legal fight is also expensive and I don't want to engage into that at the moment (best case scenario she'll have a free lawyer, worst case I'll have to pay it for her!). Enough monetary loss already with the money I have to give her.

Most probably I'll give her a chance. Then I could file for custody again if need be. In this scenario I worry I won't be there checking the situation from close.

I need her to get to go to a therapist on a steady basis for sure.

Thanks.

[worstmirageever]

Read or listen to "Understanding the Borderline Mother."

The book is profound and will give you a much better understanding of the position you're putting your child in.

Will check it out, thanks.

[PeteWitsend]

...

She says she won't get married again, but who knows.
...

So, in my case, after I filed for divorce, BPDxw insisted on a "morality clause" in our temporary custody orders that basically said neither of us could have a member of the opposite sex overnight if kids were in the house.  

She also sent me messages asking me to promise I would introduce her to any women I brought around our daughter (i.e. any romantic partners), and said she would do the same for me.

As it happened, she - unbeknowst to me - had a guy living in our house a couple months after I had moved out and filed for divorce, violating the morality clause she had insisted on, which she had to scramble and beg me to take out during mediation, because she was afraid I would discover this fact.  I guess she had made our D swear not to tell me.  Poor kid was constantly put in the middle of an adult quarrel by her BPD mom.  

A month before that hearing, she played coy when I saw a different (illegible) name signed at daycare pickup for our D.  when I asked who picked up our D, she refused to say anything and said "it's someone our D knows and loves" followed by some emojis.

I sent some emails to my attorney about this, but he was lousy and didn't follow up.  I SHOULD have taken it upon myself to raise hell about it, and force her to scramble and admit fault.  But I was trying to be nice, minimize conflict, and get the divorce over with asap so I could move on with my life.

you see though... they will lie to your face.  She had no intention of introducing me to her new boyfriend, or let me know he was living there; she hoped I would be dumb enough to admit I was seeing someone else so she could try to use it against me in court.  I knew better than to trust her on that, at least.  And regardless, she didn't have a chance here (I didn't even start dating again until our divorce was almost finalized).  

They also take advantage of your better nature, playing for sympathy to get concessions from you that they have no intention of reciprocating.

[worstmirageever]

Thanks for sharing. If you don't mind me asking, how many years ago was your divorce? You seem pretty recovered. How's your D doing? Could you tell if she was affected by the situation? Did you comfort your D, had to explain to her, or else? Did you ended up forming a new family?

Please forgive me if I'm coming up as nosy. Answer what and if you want.

This is all new to me and I'm still having trouble realizing the mirage is not real. That the good times are not coming back. That the feeling that they could come back is just a feeling that wont materialize. That I still want to be with the "good" her (!), even after all that has happened.

And on top of that that I can't just turn the page and forget about her (oh that would such an easy solution to the ordeal!). But that I will need to co-parent with her. Be a present dad for my D. And learn how to best deal with this whole situation. My likely-BPD-soon-to-be-xw will always be around and be the mother of my child.

I don't think a judge would ever forbid her from seeing the D or anything remotely near to that.

I came to this forum after reading the article "Surviving a Break-up when Your Partner has Borderline Personality": https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

I felt so identified. I hope more people in need can read it too.

Reading you gives me a heads up for what most certainly could be coming my way. Thank you again.

[So many questions]

This forum is so helpful sometimes. I alway get a much needed reality check when reading the posts from those who have been married and have kids with a BPD. Wow. I’m so sorry you all had to go through that and I applaud your commitment/efforts to the people you really cared about. That must be so hard.

I can imagine going through that with my ex BPD would be absolute hell. I’d reach a breaking point.  especially since she doesn’t admit she might have it but admits to a “chemical imbalance that makes her feel things that aren’t real”. She won’t go to therapy or make changes to work on herself.

So thank you for sharing. It helps me realize I must let go. I must move on. For my own sanity. I’m lucky to have got out before a child was involved.

I’m praying for you and your family and hope you find happiness.

[worstmirageever]

I’m lucky to have got out before a child was involved.

Indeed ...

[ForeverDad]

To avoid legal fights I'll give my wife for now physical custody of the baby. She wants to keep the baby, otherwise she said she would be devastated and "fight until the end" for her baby.

She's not from the US, she has no family here. She has some not-so-close friends.

I also kind of agree that taking away the baby from her might be too much. Particularly now during the divorce stage.

I am struck by how similar your circumstances are to mine.  She was born in USA, knew English but it was not her native language.  I was married nearly a dozen years before we had a child.  And, I was clueless about mental disorders.  I had imagined having a child would make my spouse happier, someone with serious mental concerns.

Yes, she also had a cesarean birth.  And she also thought of our son as "hers".  She even threatened to disappear and I'd never see my son again.  One time I heard her telling my toddler "Yo te quiero pero papi no te quiere." (I love you but daddy doesn't love you.)  How confusing and wrong is that to a child?

Yes, my then-spouse saw a divorce as "taking" her child away from her, but I was convinced I couldn't be passive on the legal matters.   As it turned out, court did not "take" her child away from her nor did it "give" him to me.  What it did was set up a scenario where she finally agreed to settle for equal shared custody and equal time.  She still obstructed me and disparaged me despite the equal legal and parenting Order (Boundaries) set in place.

During my two year divorce we had a Custody Evaluation and the CE, a child psychologist, noted this in his initial report: "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can."  He also advocated Shared Parenting with equal parenting time (a 5-2-2-5 schedule across two weeks) but cautioned that if it failed I should have custody.  A few years later I sought and received legal guardianship and another few years later also majority parenting time during the school year.

What concerns me is that pursuing your rights as a stable and involved father is the best option for you and your daughter.

I support her. I want the best for her. That will trickle down to the baby no doubt, and to me. Yet I have to divorce her.

I have often commented on one our our good qualities that is a distinct disadvantage to us Good Guys and Good Gals... our sense of fairness and niceness.  Sadly, that doesn't work when dealing with a seriously disordered person who is overly possessive to an extreme.  True, we should never be punishing, spiteful or malicious.  But you are entirely within your rights (and surprisingly, a better outcome) to stand up for your child.  Your daughter WILL be positively influenced if you are a substantively involved father.

Have you read Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Divorce Poison?  More importantly, has your lawyer read them?  They are invaluable during a divorce and later years.

Her feelings here are immaterial; she's disordered... she doesn't know what she wants, or what will make her happy.  Really, nothing will.  So you should not concern yourself with her wants now, but with your infant child.

I went through a similar situation; BPDxw was from a foreign country, and was undiagnosed...

I'll tell you these things: your focus in the divorce should be providing your child with the most stable possible home.  If that means fighting more NOW, rather than later when you'll have an uphill battle to change the terms of your divorce decree, so be it. 

Do not concern yourself with the needs or feelings of a disordered person; they don't know what they want, and won't ever be happy.  She will not appreciate your concern or concessions you make; all she knows it that you're abandoning her, and need to be punished, and she will try everything she can afford in order to make life as miserable for you as possible, regardless of how kindly you behave to her. 

You don't need to be cruel or aggressive here, but you need to put your child's needs first.  To that end, you need to have primary or at the very least equal rights to designate the primary residence, school, etc. for your child, so when your soon-to-be XW quickly finds a new guy (which she will), you're not stuck scrambling to move closer to wherever they end up in order to remain part of your child's life.

I can't agree more.  Very similar to my post-marriage life.

Last thoughts... while you are still in the midst of the divorce process, whatever parenting options you abandon (Gift) to your spouse will be very hard to get back in the years to come.  Many here who have done that found that out the hard way.

When I arrived at court on Trial Day I was told my ex finally was ready to settle rather than start the trial.  After all the trial preparation, I was not afraid.  We already knew the general terms recommended by the Custody Evaluator, so I responded that my only additional term to settle was that I would be the parent in charge of schooling.  That was wise (she did later move around a few times) but both lawyers insisted it didn't mean anything.  But actually, it gave me a slight but undefined edge in my parenting going forward.

So I'll leave you with that thought... If you seek and get school authority even for a baby — she may not be very attentive to scenarios years in the future — you will minimize the risk of her moving away and you having to uproot and follow her.  And perhaps avoid her skipping off to her home country with the baby and you struggling how to undo that dilemma.

[ForeverDad]

I am trying to avoid arguments and legal fights now. But after reading your post it sounds like I'm putting them off for later.

Almost surely, yes.  It also depends whether you stand up as a parent.  Unfortunately, we both had enough money to pay our lawyers, though barely.  We were in and out of court from 2005 to 2013.  Son was 3 when we separated and still 11 our last time in court.

She says she won't get married again, but who knows.

Many do find a new relationship quickly.  And you will either be permanently painted an evil guy she never ever loved or sometimes be simmering on the back burner (cooking analogy) for later use or misuse.

I 'promised' her I wouldn't take the baby away from her, though. In fact, I am yet to cancel a custody petition I submitted to family court.

You as a person should always have the right to reconsider a promise if you later gain additional insight and understanding that the promise wasn't practical or wise.

Most probably I'll give her a chance. Then I could file for custody again if need be.

It will be very hard to undo a divorce final order.  Even though my divorce decree was better than our temp orders (one for separation and another for the divorce), I still went back post-divorce for assorted minor issues and two major issues (custody and majority time)

I need her to get to go to a therapist on a steady basis for sure.

Family courts are not there to 'fix' a parent.  They set terms and boundaries going forward.  In my divorce, my court and the professionals surrounding the court all studiously ignored her mental state.  Unbelievable but no one wanted to diagnose her.  They all assumed her misbehaviors and obstructions would go away once the divorce was final.  With most divorces it does, but not those with serious mental perception issues.  My final outcome: In my last court order (2013) the magistrate noted my ex needed counseling but did not order it.

[ForeverDad]

I don't think a judge would ever forbid her from seeing the D or anything remotely near to that.

It helps to get objective perspectives and not be stuck on the inside of a situation looking out and too subjective on your views.  Turn that observation around:  I don't think a judge would ever forbid ME from seeing the D or anything remotely near to that.

Of course I have an observation from my own experience:  Post-divorce I saw that court was not willing to make big changes to my parenting.  It preferred small improvements.  (That's why I was in court over 8 years, small incremental improvements.  Eventually we got to where I had to be to parent without obstruction, but it took years.)

That's why we advocate for the best (or "least bad") parental status as you exit the divorce.  Aim for as much Leverage and Practicality as possible.  Don't fret whether you're nice enough or fair enough, court will ensure a mother is not mistreated.  (In many courts mothers get default preference in the policies and procedures, it is up to the fathers to ensure they're not sidelined or discouraged from seeking a better outcome.)

[PeteWitsend]

Thanks for sharing. If you don't mind me asking, how many years ago was your divorce? You seem pretty recovered. How's your D doing? Could you tell if she was affected by the situation? Did you comfort your D, had to explain to her, or else? Did you ended up forming a new family?

...

My divorce was finalized about 3 years ago.  Separated about 3 1/2.

The proceedings were actually pretty brief because I didn't fight for what I should have, gave her primary custody, and only took the max possession time I was allowed under state guidelines. BPDxw tried to allege more stuff about me, but when she saw how much her legal bills were already, she quickly backed down.

Honestly like I said above, on some level I had known  divorce was inevitable for some time, so I had long accepted it.  When I got out and into my own place, I felt like I was BORN AGAIN.  It was a great feeling.

My D has had issues but they've been - as far as I can tell - minor.  , but I have a Therapist for her to at least have another adult monitoring her reaction and mood.  BPDxw has continued to badmouth me to her the entire time.  That hasn't changed, and probably will never change.  My D just had to learn to trust her own perceptions, not what her mom tells her.  It isn't easy for her, but she's handling it.  You never can tell exactly what kids are thinking, so it's always a nagging worry I have, wondering if I'm missing something.

I heard from a friend of mine who's a psychiatrist that divorce is usually easier on younger kids, because they don't have as much awareness of what's going on.  So at least there's that.  

I have started a new family.  All I can say about that is it's REALLY complicated, when you have a BPDxw.  There will be lots of challenging behavior they continue to demonstrate to make joint custody difficult, and so if you do start another family, be sure you find a very understanding and patient partner.

[worstmirageever]

...
To avoid legal fights I'll give my wife for now physical custody of the baby. She wants to keep the baby, otherwise she said she would be devastated and "fight until the end" for her baby.
...

Just wanted to clarify from my initial post: I'm not even remotely considering full physical custody. I was referring to BPDxw's house as primary dwelling for the baby.

I initially proposed alternating 3-day weekends. But after reconsidering my promise of ''not taking the baby away from my wife", I'm not more inclined to have a 50-50% share.

5-2-2-5, 3-3-4 seems like a lot of movement for a baby or kid...

[worstmirageever]

  One time I heard her telling my toddler "Yo te quiero pero papi no te quiere." (I love you but daddy doesn't love you.)  How confusing and wrong is that to a child?

That's horrible! Isn't that ground for losing custody?

He also advocated Shared Parenting with equal parenting time (a 5-2-2-5 schedule across two weeks)

How was you experience with a 5-2-2-5 schedule? Isn't that a lot of movement for a baby/toddler. Doesn't it feel a bit 'unstable' to them?

[GaGrl]

Actually, most courts are more favorable to 5-2-2-5 or 3-3-4-4 schedules for younger children, with the weekly changes for older children.

The more frequent changes keep the children from being away from one parent for long periods, ensuring thatvparent/child connections stay strong.

[ForeverDad]

That's horrible! Isn't that ground for losing custody?

In my jurisdiction ranting and raging at the other parent, even in the presence of the children, isn't actionable.  Or it wasn't 15 years ago.  I twice called my local CPS in the months before our separation and both times the ladies said, "Call back if she starts raging at the child."

How was your experience with a 5-2-2-5 schedule? Isn't that a lot of movement for a baby/toddler. Doesn't it feel a bit 'unstable' to them?

My Custody Evaluator was a practicing child psychologist and even gave lectures at the local university.  On Trial Day — he was scheduled to testify on his submitted report — he told me the frequent exchanges were better for children under 10 years of age.  In recent years my county updated its Parenting Guideline to state older children in their teens will do better with one home being their home base.

In my own case, I told my lawyer I wanted to reduce the number of exchanges by switching to alternate weeks since a lot of our conflict was at exchanges.  He responded, "Do you want court to think your son will do better with longer visits with his mother?"  I had equal time from the final decree thru 2013 (kindergarten into 6th grade) when I got majority time during the school year due to her poor behaviors.  Until he aged out of the court system at age 18 we continued the 5-2-2-5 schedule during the summers.