Back to the real issue

[15years]

The past couple of months, more then before, I have been criticized for absurd things (for example the sexist pack of tea I bought). I've handled those arguments better than before -> It hasn't affected my mood or my feelings toward myself as much.

BUT, silly arguments are so easy to handle compared to the real deal:
Arguing about nothing in particular -> me?
This happened last night quite suddenly and I went mute. She expects something from me, a statement or action that would make her feel like I am taking responsibility. I think - "she's right, I have to say something", so I try, not knowing how to end my sentences when starting them. She protests, that was not what she wanted to hear! How can I still at this point be so immature. And her anger increases. She hates how nervous and scared I get when she confronts me. A short while later she's imitating my posture and facial expression, then telling me she will soon hit me if I don't pull myself together and treat her better.
I asked her if I can go get a glass of water, and this time it did defuse the situation a bit, no physical violence and a while later I was able to sleep. She even said she's sorry for imitating me and wanted to cuddle. But I'm afraid it's quite circumstantial, this time she was prepared to let it go and me taking a short break helped (she even allowed me to take that break).



If someone's interested in the details, here's the lead-up:
We were watching Tiger King in bed. She told me that these are the kinds of people I have been trying to impress by pretending to be someone I'm not (referring to my online betrayal, for example writing and sharing my own erotic stories in my twenties "behind her back"). I told her "that's very shameful" or something along that line. I didn't want to say too much but she's waiting for me to say something more, tell her something she wants to hear, with conviction.

It all happened very quickly, but the Tiger King episode we were watching was about Tim Starks 'Wildlife in need' and him wanting to build a strip club in one of the buildings. I was very nervous and hoped the sexist stuff would end sooner than later. It did but it might be that this triggered her.

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

It seems that she’s upset about things that happened in the past. We’ve all done things we’d rather not have done, if we’d known the consequences. But these things that she criticizes you for are innocuous. So what if you bought tea with a picture of an attractive woman on the package? Or wrote steamy erotica? This harms no one. It’s ridiculous for her to be upset about this.

All these things that bother her seem to be related to sexuality. Why not turn the tables on her when she starts interrogating you and ask why these issues bother her? What is it about sexuality that scares her? Why does she get so triggered about a picture on a package? What’s wrong with writing erotica in your youth? Or anytime, for that matter? What leads her to be so worried about sexual imagery? Why does she keep thinking about these matters that occurred so long ago? Is she worried about her own attractiveness? Is she obsessed with sexual thoughts and that’s why she questions you?

A mentor taught me that whoever asks the questions controls the dialog. It’s time for you to start questioning her.

[Notwendy]

15 years

I don't think this is the real issue- the arguing about nothing in particular and making it about you.  

This wasn't even a discussion or argument. It was about making you wrong. Making all men wrong for whatever reason she has that isn't a good enough reason to be abusive to you.

This was an emotionally and verbally abusive situation- because you were visibly scared - cornered. And she kept on going aggressively.

She hurts you and no matter what the reason, abuse is hurtful.

This serves some kind of purpose for her, perhaps a way to act out some hurt she has, and so, she has no incentive to stop this. It works for her.

Why it works for you too ( or you wouldn't tolerate it ) I don't know. That's for you to decide. But I do know, after observing this for decades with my parents, that this won't change so long as you continue to allow it.

I am not suggesting you break the relationship. That is beyond the scope of this board and there's a lot more to that kind of decision which I believe is entirely up to you.  However,  I do wish you could get some help - for you, for your boys and secure a safe place for yourselves.

She has some kind of issue with men that she's acting out on you. I fear for your boys.  

[alterK]

With my BPDw I have taken the position of insisting that we talk only about the present. No past tense. I've posted this before--don't recall what thread.

I established this ground rule for our discussions at a time when we weren't arguing, and she agreed. So if she starts to break it, I remind her of our standing agreement, and that rarely fails to stop her accusations. I do my part and resist when I am myself tempted to talk about past events.

Talking about the past with a pwBPD is almost always useless. It quickly degenerates into a fight, because you and your partner will have different memories of what happened, and that is an endless argument. Or is becomes a tit for tat: You did this. Well, it was because you did that. But you did the other first. Etc. Etc.

Knowing how fast a conversation with a pwBPD can degenerate into a fight, you have to take control very quickly. If you can succeed, she may actually appreciate it, as you are saving her from being overcome by her negative emotions.

[15years]

Cat Familiar
The thing is I dumped a load of secrets on her a year ago and I think it shocked her badly. Toxic sexuality makes her angry and scared. We are partly in agreement what is toxic and not. I thought we were, but it seems there is no end to what she thinks are toxic. Every sign of me being toxic sexually makes her loose confidence in me. Being a sensitive guy with low self confidence in my youth, I was always nervous around "dudes" (or youth culture in general really) and I think we bonded around that, so when I in her view diverge from that picture she thinks I'm trying to impress peers who are nothing like her.

Unnecessary questions make her angry, especially if she has given me the answers before, and we have talked about this A LOT.

Notwendy
I'm not sure how to explain it, she has been my moral guide for all my adult life. She has a cult like thinking pattern but she's totally unaware of it. If she has a theory, she sees it in everything which of course is also a normal human thing, so I am able to understand her.

One example:
She told me the worst thing she can think of are normal people living normal respectable lives while at the same time watching porn.
This I can understand but I'm sure it is a bit delusional also.

alterK
I wouldn't expect that to work for me but one never knows!

[15years]

If you can succeed, she may actually appreciate it, as you are saving her from being overcome by her negative emotions.

I can see how she would appreciate being saved like that but I'm not sure how. You found a great solution, I wouldn't dare suggest it to her yet, but maybe later.

[Notwendy]

I'm not sure how to explain it, she has been my moral guide for all my adult life. She has a cult like thinking pattern but she's totally unaware of it.

Which means you, too, are following her guidance and way of thinking.

I did observe something like that. BPD mother has read a lot of pop psychology books. She lectures about how we need to be or how others need to be and then prompts us to agree with her. She's also verbally and emotionally abusive. After a while, my father began to sound just like her.

It takes considerable emotional energy to express your own point of view around my BPD mother. Eventually it becomes easier to just give in to it but the problem is, you lose yourself.

[Notwendy]

Toxic sexuality makes her angry and scared. We are partly in agreement what is toxic and not. I thought we were, but it seems there is no end to what she thinks are toxic. Every sign of me being toxic sexually makes her loose confidence in me.

It sounds to me that you were young when you met your future wife. You had an early sexual experience which upset you and she is upset with you over this.  You probably had no idea about your own self and mature sexuality with this first experience and also when you met your wife ( young people often don't) and she has shaped your view of how a man needs to act since then.

It also seems you are not entirely on the same page with her when it comes to what is "sexual toxicity". I think this can actually vary between two people. People have different preferences. First and foremost is to not harm someone else and for each person to feel safe with the experiences together.

I agree with the others that discussing the past is not helpful. What you did years ago is done, can't be changed and I agree, is nothing to be ashamed about. If anything you do is sexually toxic, what are you supposed to do?

Our very first boundary is knowing "who is me" and "who isn't me". You are both separate people. You have your own bodies and minds. If you can hold on to the idea of who you are, and have your own ideas and thoughts about your role as a man, this might be a possible start to seeing that these "discussions" she brings up out of the blue are more about her own feelings than you, if you wish to do this.

[Cat Familiar]

You’ve been trying to deal with her by being passive. This seems to anger her even more and she behaves in a disrespectful way: criticizing, mocking, and threatening you. What would happen if you became more assertive?

Here’s an article that might be helpful: https://positivepsychology.com/assertiveness-training/

[15years]

It sounds to me that you were young when you met your future wife. You had an early sexual experience which upset you and she is upset with you over this.  You probably had no idea about your own self and mature sexuality with this first experience and also when you met your wife ( young people often don't) and she has shaped your view of how a man needs to act since then.

It's no big deal but you may have misinterpreted this in another post, I'm not upset about my early sexual experience, that is my wife's theory, which she came up with to cope. I'm upset about the years of abuse I received for having this sexual experience.

At the time I felt very alone and actually took on guilt for destroying our relationship, even before I knew she existed.

[Notwendy]

I am glad you are able to clarify that clearly, not just to me but to yourself.

There is no way that someone can destroy a relationship with someone else years before they met them.

I hope you can let go of any guilt over this, and protect yourself from any abuse.

[Firsttimefather]

Yes protect yourself from abuse! This is a never ending cycle that needs constant reminding. I have learned this . We non Bpd’s are great at normalizing the emotional abuse and missing such hurtful jabs. The latest one I received was:”im sick of coming up with excuses as to why you are a good person.” This on response to being overheard venting a story of how Bpd episodes can be crazy I.e-the false police report story November 2020…
  She didn’t like this very much: ‘I have nothing to say to you’ ‘please rub my feet’’make me a smoothie’ etc…I politely declined these requests as if I perform said deeds it’s me asking for further abuse.. this time I said ‘if you can’t forgive me and we can’t work through it then we are better off continuing in taking space from each other.’ However the ‘space’ has been just days of stonewalling…
 Anyway I know this differs from your situation but when Notwendy replied with ‘protect yourself from the abuse’ I wanted to second that notion and remind us how sneaky emotional abuse can be delivered

[15years]

I think I realised now that these silly arguments are as real as the "real issue". It's easier to categorize them as crazy but to her it's the same thing. I thought that I was accused of minor mistakes because it reminds her of my bigger mistakes, but maybe it simply reminds her of her hurt self?

I'm noticing more and more how her days are filled with either fantasies of people admiring her or of being mistreated. How do I respond so I don't upset her but don't encourage it either?

[Notwendy]

I think you are correct that her imagined "slights" are as important to her as her "real" ones.

However, I don't have a solution to how to control her feelings because this is not something we can control. You can control your reactions.

How do I respond so I don't upset her but don't encourage it either?

You can't control how she emotionally feels in response to what you do or say, or anyone else's response because-

It's not possible to control how someone else feels.

Unless we are deliberately trying to be cruel to someone, we are not responsible for someone else's feelings.

Her feelings are inside her brain, her body. You don't control her brain processes any more than you control the beating of her heart or her lungs or any other body part. It's her, not you. That is a boundary.

The "real" reason for her feelings has nothing to do with you. pwBPD have distorted thinking. You may say something and understand the intent of what you are saying, but she experiences it through her thinking and feelings.

For some people, the "real" reason may have occurred before they meet their partner, maybe a childhood trauma, and she's somehow repeating this trauma with you. A poor sense of self may influence how someone interprets what is said to them. You could say 10 nice things but the one that she seems to connect with is the one that somehow feels like evidence that she's somehow inadequate.

I'm noticing more and more how her days are filled with either fantasies of people admiring her or of being mistreated.

My BPD mother has a great need to be admired. I notice that her family members often provide this for her. They will praise her for doing even the smallest of things and say how wonderful she is. She likes to be constantly admired and have people treat her as being special. On the other hand, one slight, and that becomes the "worst thing ever" for her.

I think - what you can do is understand this and not react emotionally to it- not take it personally. It's not about you. Once I was able to do this, I didn't feel as "hurt" by her reactions. One example was- she was having some construction work done in the house. I recalled that I forgot to cover the shelves nearby and then had to clean construction dust off them. I mentioned this to her since she also had a bookshelf in that room. It was a casual off the cuff " be sure to cover the bookshelf". The intent was to be helpful- sort of a "what I wish someone had reminded me" comment. She exploded. This felt invalidating to her. Then, she acted like a victim "how can you expect me to climb that bookshelf" ( she's elderly ). I didn't mean this literally- not to tell her to do it but she could have asked the workmen to do it. So, I had innocent intentions but in her world, I some how "hurt her". This is just one example.

I don't have proof, but I think she may have been abused as a child or teen. Not necessarily by a family member but she had a lot of extended family around her growing up. She sees things from victim perspective. To her, people are "on her side" or "not her side". I think her family members have learned what to do to be on her side. However, BPD behaviors are the most obvious with the most intimate relationships- spouses, children. They don't live with her and so don't see the extent of her behaviors.

I have learned that when I don't react emotionally to what she says, the conversations don't escalate as much. The tools here- don't invalidate, don't add to the drama, help take down the conflicting conversations. However, with physical abuse, you need to stay safe and take measures to do that.

[Notwendy]

It seems that her triggers are around sexual content. Men acting sexist, picture of a pretty lady on a tea box.

Seems her issues also have something to do with your sexuality- before you met her, and any attention you may have to someone else, even an invented interest in the woman on the tea box. TV shows with certain kinds of sexual content trigger her.

How about her? Are you her one and only? Sometimes a person might project the same thing they did on to another partner. Maybe she's ashamed of something she did?

I think you getting up to get some water was a good move. It gave her some space to calm down. Hopefully this is something that can work for you to help de escalate the situation.

[15years]

I have learned that when I don't react emotionally to what she says, the conversations don't escalate as much. The tools here- don't invalidate, don't add to the drama, help take down the conflicting conversations. However, with physical abuse, you need to stay safe and take measures to do that.

I have noticed this too. I have been confronted about not showing my true emotions a lot, so no wonder I hadn't realized that being less emotional would help.

I'm in a much better place mentally now than ever before. Physical abuse seems to lessen the more I respect myself. I don't accept it the same way I did 6 months ago. She has complex shame issues and if I simply think she is out of line without getting too emotional, I think it mirrors her behavior back and she wan't to avoid that.


It seems that her triggers are around sexual content. Men acting sexist, picture of a pretty lady on a tea box.
Her body is VERY important to her, sex is very important and it's hard for her to tolerate things that doesn't sit right with her and she feels dislikes physically in her own body. Me enjoying something she dislikes this way feels like crossing her boundaries. She accepts that in this world there are things she doesn't like, but she cannot accept it in me. This has kind of worked this long because we share the same taste in a lot of things, but there has always been tension around things she doesn't like if I don't share that dislike.

How about her? Are you her one and only? Sometimes a person might project the same thing they did on to another partner. Maybe she's ashamed of something she did?
She hasn't been perfect, but I was her first one. She has tried to make it even a few times which hurt me when I was younger. She didn't go through with it fully which works in her favor.

[Notwendy]

Some things about emotions that I have observed:

To me, a person with BPD is in victim perspective- they are the ones who are feeling hurt. If I show any sense of emotion on the "hurt" category- this becomes triggering. One paradox that was distressing for me to see was when my father got ill. It's understandable that this triggered all kinds of feelings for my BPD mother, but instead of being empathetic, she got angry and abusive. Of course, it's distressing when a spouse is not feeling well- but to her, he was responsible for her distress.

So back to the conversation about Tiger King. She confronted you. You showed nervousness. It's an appropriate response to the situation, but you showing distress may have resulted in her feeling distress- she sees you as the cause and it escalates.

While she may want you to show feelings more, my guess is to show positive and complimentary ones. Consider that if someone can not manage their own uncomfortable feelings - they are not able to handle someone else's.

I am glad you have done better with not accepting abuse.

I don't know how to undo the baggage over her being upset that she was not your "first". Honestly, this is the situation in many stable marriages. Holding a resentment over previous partners is only going to lead to unhappiness. You can't change what you did before you met her - and you should not have to feel ashamed for your entire married time together.

I think this is something you need to have a boundary on. The boundary is- you can't go back in time and change this. You have done all you can to resolve this with her. Next time she brings it up ( if you are in a safe place) there's no point in dragging this out. You can't fix this. So saying "I understand that this upsets you. I can not change the past before I met you. You are the only one for me now" and then let it drop. If she brings it up, ask- what do you need from me now? See what she says ( hopefully it's not unreasonable. Don't JADE this. Don't escalate it.

Try to come up with ways to diffuse TV shows, movies, triggers. People behaving themselves don't usually make for good drama. TV shows are often full of drama. There will likely be more of these conversations. Although her accusations are upsetting to you, try to diffuse them.

She told me that these are the kinds of people I have been trying to impress by pretending to be someone I'm not (referring to my online betrayal, for example writing and sharing my own erotic stories in my twenties "behind her back"). I told her "that's very shameful" or something along that line. I didn't want to say too much but she's waiting for me to say something more, tell her something she wants to hear, with conviction.

What do you think she wants you to hear? Can you be reassuring without groveling/putting yourself down? Consider the idea of validating the emotion but not what isn't true.

"Yes, I can understand how you feel that I wasn't at my best, but I have learned from this experience to not do that"

It is a challenge to stay empathetic and remain confident. These statements reflect her fears, not you.

As to intimacy. Keep in mind that feelings are facts to someone with BPD. Time and logic don't play into this. Of course, you can't cheat on someone before you met them. That's logical. On her part- if she has a poor sense of self- the idea of you being with someone else may bring up a sense of fear or being inadequate. If you reply logically, this won't address her feelings. Intimacy needs to be mutually agreeable but the emotions involved in this make it hard to discuss. Her "need" to put you down probably reflects her insecurity. Try not taking it personally.

[Notwendy]

Honestly, this is the situation (spouses are not virgins when they marry) in many stable marriages.

I wanted to clarify this- in current times, people marry at an older age- and it is common that they have had other relationships before meeting each other. I think it's a general trend that in religious families, where marrying as virgins is important- people marry younger.

Even so, there could be another marriage after the death or a spouse or divorce.

So, in many marriages, virginity is not a factor- yet they can be stable marriages.

I think the ability to not feel threatened or insecure about a past experience takes a stable sense of self and some emotional maturity and the ability to rationalize- that was then, this is now. It takes emotional regulation skills. We may feel jealousy but we rationalize this.

PwBPD have difficulty with all these functions. However, you are not the cause of this, and you can not change it. But by recognizing that her feelings can get triggered by things that don't make logical sense to you, perhaps you can work on not reacting with negative emotions to them.

[15years]

The latest one I received was:”im sick of coming up with excuses as to why you are a good person.”

This quote actually sounds very familiar to me.