How do you talk about issues without mentioning BPD?

[who_knows11]

I'm reading through "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and most of the things I feel like I already have a good grasp on.  I don't take things personally, I know I'm not the cause of my wife's anger even if I trigger it, and her issues have not hurt my own self esteem.  I know I must set boundaries and end the walking on eggshells feeling.  What I don't know how to do right now is this?  If her and I are going to work on things and try to deal with her internal issues, how can I bring any of if up without mentioning the BPD? I understand that it would be detrimental to do so and I definitely do not want to do that.  So is it possible to talk about the fact that I know her childhood trauma is the root of her feelings, and are the things that cause her to think the way she does without bringing it up? Any thoughts on this?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[PeteWitsend]

You need to accept that they are the way they are, and change your expectations accordingly.  You need to accept that all you can control is how you react or don't react to their actions.  "Talking about issues" will get you nowhere with a disordered person; they will not hear what you're saying, and will find ways to spin everything you say into a counterattack that places the responsibility for their actions on you. 

By firmly enforcing your own boundaries, you may be able to reach a more tolerable plane of existence, but this is difficult.  Easier said than done... though... it seems from reading peoples' stories here, some pwBPD are a little less extreme on the spectrum, and while unpleasant, the non- can manage their outbursts or issues enough that they find the situation overall tolerable.  In other cases, they can't; it's just too much, or too dysfunctional, especially if there are children involved.   

[who_knows11]

You need to accept that they are the way they are, and change your expectations accordingly.  You need to accept that all you can control is how you react or don't react to their actions.  "Talking about issues" will get you nowhere with a disordered person; they will not hear what you're saying, and will find ways to spin everything you say into a counterattack that places the responsibility for their actions on you. 

By firmly enforcing your own boundaries, you may be able to reach a more tolerable plane of existence, but this is difficult.  Easier said than done... though... it seems from reading peoples' stories here, some pwBPD are a little less extreme on the spectrum, and while unpleasant, the non- can manage their outbursts or issues enough that they find the situation overall tolerable.  In other cases, they can't; it's just too much, or too dysfunctional, especially if there are children involved.   

My thoughts on this overall thing:

I understand the acceptance part of the whole scenario.  One must be able to realize that this is who a pwBPD is and I get that.  I do accept that this is the way my wife is and that it is a result of missed development because of the experiences of her childhood.  However, the overall consensus seems to be that one must simply choose between leaving or staying and allowing them to act as they do.  Learn to take the abuse so to speak.  It has to be one way or the other because there is no alternative.  Does that not seem like the same black and white thinking that pwBPD are characterized as having?  Or am I missing something? 

Then there is the setting limits thing.  As I said in the OP I know this is something I need to do to help with the situation.  However, just like above it seems that in general the situation is treated as if there is nothing you can do, but then we say now you need to set limits.  I understand that those limits are more for me than for them but still, if the limits can make things better then we aren't accepting that there is nothing that can be done.  It just seems counter-intuitive to me and that's the part I'm most struggling with.  If certains types of therapy have been shown to be productive (even if it takes years to kick in) then there are things that can be done for them.  So what I'm looking for is if there are others who have tried some of these types of talks.  What was beneficial and what wasn't?

Even if it were concluded that pwBPD are in a hopeless situation that can't be fixed, they are still people and deserve to be told when getting left that they have BPD and it's not fixable and that's why I'm leaving you.  Running from the fact that they have it is unfair and dishonest to the person with it. 

I'm about to make a comparison that in no way is meant to be offensive and I hope no one takes it that way.  It's just that usually the most extreme comparisons are the ones that best get the point across.  When a person has psychopathy how is it treated?  Basically all, if not all, serial killers are psychopaths.  It's a result of something that happened at a young age that interrupted there emotional development resulting in the tendencies that cause their actions.  NO, I AM NOT COMPARING pwBPD TO SERIAL KILLERS.  It's just that what leads to their way of thinking and seeing the world is very comparable to what happens to pwBPD causing them to have their ways of thinking and seeing the world.  We don't just let someone with psychopathy be because there is nothing that can be done for them.  Even if you compare putting them in prison to leaving the pwBPD, at least the psychopathic serial killer is told why they are put in prison.  I hope that makes sense and doesn't come across the wrong way.  And if it is comparing apples to oranges then someone please feel free to point that out

[Riv3rW0lf]

I appreciate how you compare "staying and taking the abuse VS leaving" as a black and white concept. It does sometimes look like it.

For some here, me included, leaving and distancing ourselves is the only way forward, but this is because we are not able to continue feeling whole within the relationship. The pwBPD I am dealing with is my mother, so my experience and take on it will differ than you are experiencing in a romantic relationship, and the damages resulting from the relationship are also different.

Leaving or Staying truly is a personal choice and it is not necessarily black and white... There are various levels of borderline behaviours : some will seek therapy and try to take responsibility, and some will not... And so, in some cases staying and lessening the abuse IS possible indeed and it is important to remember that. In other cases, it is not.

As her child, I don't know that my approach will work for you but with BPD, it seems to be a case of validating, without protecting them nor taking responsibility for their actions and emotions (when we truly are not), which is harder to achieve than it looks.

You do not have to talk about BPD to validate someone and to recognize their pain, or hurt. And I think it is fair to talk about "past trauma". Has your wife showed interest in working with a therapist for resolve her trauma? Do you work with a therapist yourself? Since all relationships have very different, a professional might have some useful methods for you and your objectives.

[PeteWitsend]

...  However, the overall consensus seems to be that one must simply choose between leaving or staying and allowing them to act as they do.  Learn to take the abuse so to speak.  ...

Well, no.  That's why I mentioned the part about boundaries.

You set your boundaries based on the behavior you find intolerable, for example, "If you scream at me, or if you insult me, or make demands instead of making requests, I will leave the room and return when you calm down."

You may find this works enough of the time that you can tolerate your partner's behavior.  And the good outweighs the bad.

or you may not.  enforcing boundaries may be an exercise in futility, depending on how disordered the BPDer is.  They may be very aggressive in pushing your boundaries... and/or hell bent on creating conflict for the sake of it.

and enforcing boundaries gets a lot more difficult when there are children, family members, or other third parties caught in between.

So yeah, in some cases, there is only a "stay or leave" solution.  In others, it maybe "manageable" or at least tolerable.

[Cat Familiar]

Whether or not you’re hoping to get your wife into therapy, this article is a good read as to why telling them you think they have BPD is counterproductive. https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

As PeteWitsend said, talking about issues with her is likely to have the opposite effect of what you’re hoping for. Though if she brings up her childhood trauma herself, you can be a good listener. But broaching that subject yourself, you risk her thinking that you are blaming and shaming her for the problems in your relationship.

The reason that talking about BPD is so fraught is that it’s a disorder based upon shame and self loathing. In addition, should she research it, she will discover that it is often thought of as intractable and that the only “cure” would take years of commitment to therapy, which most people with BPD are disinclined to the extreme, given the shame and self loathing they would confront through examining their own behavior.

There is no need for you to take abuse. That’s where boundaries come in. Boundaries are for you, not her. You are not trying to control her behavior, just how you respond to things that you find objectionable.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Boundaries in a snapshot overview are basically unstated rules: if you do X, I will do Y. For example, if you yell at me, I will excuse myself. You could say, “I need to take a 30 minute break to cool down and then I’ll return to the conversation.” Or if you leave dirty dishes on the counter, I will leave them there, rather than cleaning up your mess.

The most effective way to implement boundaries is to just do them. Don’t threaten beforehand or think you need to explain. Just leave, saying you’ll be back at a certain time; just ignore the mess until she cleans it up.

It can become a contest of wills, but only set boundaries you are willing to enforce 100%. If you cave, then she will know that it’s a waiting game and will behave accordingly.

[FirstSteps]

Just want to validate the struggle here.  Before I even knew about BPD, my biggest struggle was the fact that I had to be the "parent" in the relationship when all I wanted was equal intimacy.  I've fully accepted consciously that I can't talk about this with her.  Then in the middle of an "argument" I slipped and made some mention of her "neurodiversity".  It hasn't blow up in my face yet but I have no illusions this was a good move.

[Kayteelouwho]

 There is a certain amount of boundaries you can implement for yourself, but regarding being able to talk your partner about it and depending how they are and how severe their illness is can really back fire and not all can do that, my partner is severe that I can just about defuse a situation to him then waking me up at 1am screaming at me. and I can have the same process 3 times A-day but I couldn't ever have a everyday conversation with him about his illness or something of a result of it as he doesn't see there's a problem with it or then is raged and will continue with the same upset all the time even if its to do with work or I betrayed him for letting my children see their auntie so he did a 3 day sit in or sulks, sarcasm, screaming at me to I don't love him, had things thrown at me or didnt like that I have routines with my children like bedtimes etc he is untreated and newly diagnosed and seems he is not interested in treatment so it really does depend on the how your partner is and for most you can't really dicuss the illness as you might with a friend.

You can validate that they are in pain and suffering but that is kind of it unless they bring something up then try and talk to them if they are calm and just reassure them but I wouldn't approach that subject but that's from my experiences just find sutle ways to find boundaries with what you can tolerate.

Take care

[once removed]

If her and I are going to work on things and try to deal with her internal issues, how can I bring any of if up without mentioning the BPD?

this sort of thing is something for her and her therapist (should she ever choose to engage in therapy) to work through.

your role (when it comes to her internal issues) is one of support.

you are husband, lover, friend. youre not therapist, or doctor.

those are boundaries.

then there are your issue(s), whatever those may be, if any, and then there are relationship issues. those are the things you work through individually, and as a team.

so, what are they?

[who_knows11]

Whether or not you’re hoping to get your wife into therapy, this article is a good read as to why telling them you think they have BPD is counterproductive. https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy

As PeteWitsend said, talking about issues with her is likely to have the opposite effect of what you’re hoping for. Though if she brings up her childhood trauma herself, you can be a good listener. But broaching that subject yourself, you risk her thinking that you are blaming and shaming her for the problems in your relationship.

The reason that talking about BPD is so fraught is that it’s a disorder based upon shame and self loathing. In addition, should she research it, she will discover that it is often thought of as intractable and that the only “cure” would take years of commitment to therapy, which most people with BPD are disinclined to the extreme, given the shame and self loathing they would confront through examining their own behavior.

There is no need for you to take abuse. That’s where boundaries come in. Boundaries are for you, not her. You are not trying to control her behavior, just how you respond to things that you find objectionable.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Boundaries in a snapshot overview are basically unstated rules: if you do X, I will do Y. For example, if you yell at me, I will excuse myself. You could say, “I need to take a 30 minute break to cool down and then I’ll return to the conversation.” Or if you leave dirty dishes on the counter, I will leave them there, rather than cleaning up your mess.

The most effective way to implement boundaries is to just do them. Don’t threaten beforehand or think you need to explain. Just leave, saying you’ll be back at a certain time; just ignore the mess until she cleans it up.

It can become a contest of wills, but only set boundaries you are willing to enforce 100%. If you cave, then she will know that it’s a waiting game and will behave accordingly.

I don’t won’t to tell her I think she has it, I want to be able to talk about the real issues when she starts questioning why I treat her the way I do. The things I handle correctly and the things I handle incorrectly are because I’m trying to deal with the issues of her BPD but I can’t tell her that. So my options are either lie or don’t say anything. I refuse to lie and if I don’t say anything she gets mad about that too. She likes to ask constantly about my feelings. That’s just who she is. I can’t tell her about my feelings though bc they all stem from her BPD. That’s the dilemma I’m trying to figure out

[who_knows11]

Just want to validate the struggle here.  Before I even knew about BPD, my biggest struggle was the fact that I had to be the "parent" in the relationship when all I wanted was equal intimacy.  I've fully accepted consciously that I can't talk about this with her.  Then in the middle of an "argument" I slipped and made some mention of her "neurodiversity".  It hasn't blow up in my face yet but I have no illusions this was a good move.

I understand. Not being able to talk to her about what is going on means I have to lie or hide it. She can tell when I’m lying or hiding so that just creates more problems

[who_knows11]

There is a certain amount of boundaries you can implement for yourself, but regarding being able to talk your partner about it and depending how they are and how severe their illness is can really back fire and not all can do that, my partner is severe that I can just about defuse a situation to him then waking me up at 1am screaming at me. and I can have the same process 3 times A-day but I couldn't ever have a everyday conversation with him about his illness or something of a result of it as he doesn't see there's a problem with it or then is raged and will continue with the same upset all the time even if its to do with work or I betrayed him for letting my children see their auntie so he did a 3 day sit in or sulks, sarcasm, screaming at me to I don't love him, had things thrown at me or didnt like that I have routines with my children like bedtimes etc he is untreated and newly diagnosed and seems he is not interested in treatment so it really does depend on the how your partner is and for most you can't really dicuss the illness as you might with a friend.

You can validate that they are in pain and suffering but that is kind of it unless they bring something up then try and talk to them if they are calm and just reassure them but I wouldn't approach that subject but that's from my experiences just find sutle ways to find boundaries with what you can tolerate.

Take care

I’ve tried to validate the pain but she won’t accept it. She says if I really understood I would stop causing it. What she really wants is for me to admit all the fault and become a different person. But then she would just have problems with the new person. She asks daily for me to tell her what I think about the situation or why I am the way I am and I can’t tell her bc I refuse to lie and I’m not supposed to talk about what’s really going on

[Cat Familiar]

She asks daily for me to tell her what I think about the situation or why I am the way I am and I can’t tell her bc I refuse to lie and I’m not supposed to talk about what’s really going on

It seems like you’re looking at this from a polarity—lie or hide. What about responding in an anodyne way?  “I’d like to improve the way we communicate because I value our relationship.”

If you speak in generalities, then you’re responding. Then when asked for more information, how about turning the tables and asking her for specifics? “What do you think could improve the way we interact?”

If she tries to pin all the blame on you, then you might say, “Wow, that’s a lot to deal with. Can you narrow it down to the most important thing that you’d like to be different?”

It seems that asking for specificity can really dumbfound a pwBPD’s patterns, since they’re typically complaining about feelings that result from their all/never, right/wrong absolutist thinking patterns.

[alterK]

I'll make another, slightly more benign analogy. With a child setting limits can be reassuring. They may kick and scream and call you a horrible parent, but in the end they can learn that the world is less chaotic, that good relationships can follow predictable rules, that emotions that seem overwhelming can be controlled. This doesn't always work. Sometimes the kid is right and you are wrong. Still, it's part of every parent's task, and if setting limits to behavior is done in as kind a manner as possible it can have a good outcome.

For a pwBPD the same can be true. Again, not always. You are dealing with an adult who has a lot more emotional tools (weapons?) at their disposal and may not hesitate to use them. You cannot approach changing your W's behavior directly, and you can't be her therapist. You can, as others here have said, tell her as calmly as possible, "Look, from now on if you do A, I will do B." You take one baby step at a time.

It isn't always a stark choice between leaving or staying (though it may come to that sometime). There are things you can do, if you are able to change your own behavior. It's difficult and you have to expect you will make mistakes along the way. And it takes a lot of patience.

[who_knows11]

I'll make another, slightly more benign analogy. With a child setting limits can be reassuring. They may kick and scream and call you a horrible parent, but in the end they can learn that the world is less chaotic, that good relationships can follow predictable rules, that emotions that seem overwhelming can be controlled. This doesn't always work. Sometimes the kid is right and you are wrong. Still, it's part of every parent's task, and if setting limits to behavior is done in as kind a manner as possible it can have a good outcome.

For a pwBPD the same can be true. Again, not always. You are dealing with an adult who has a lot more emotional tools (weapons?) at their disposal and may not hesitate to use them. You cannot approach changing your W's behavior directly, and you can't be her therapist. You can, as others here have said, tell her as calmly as possible, "Look, from now on if you do A, I will do B." You take one baby step at a time.

It isn't always a stark choice between leaving or staying (though it may come to that sometime). There are things you can do, if you are able to change your own behavior. It's difficult and you have to expect you will make mistakes along the way. And it takes a lot of patience.

I'm working on the boundaries for sure.  I'm working on myself as a whole for that matter.  And just for some entertainment me telling her I'm working on myself makes her mad too haha apparently it makes me selfish in her eyes because I'm only concerned about me.  I can't do anything but laugh at it (not to her obviously). 

So for what it's worth I understand everyone's point about working on me and I agree with all of it.  I'm a very analytical person though.  It's just a personality trait of mine.  I like to look at everything from the deepest perspective possible assuming I can find that perspective.  So to my mind, working on me is not dealing with the issues.  It may have an indirect affect on the issues, but it does so without facing the actual issues.  That's why it feels like a lie or hide, stay or leave scenario to me.  I'm choosing to either stay with issues or leave the issues.  Yes the work on myself might have an affect on her behavior but there is no guarantee, so before starting the work on myself I still have to decide if I am going to stay with the issues or not. 

I don't mean for any of this to sound argumentative.  I'm just trying to explain how my mind works.  In some of the self-work I did a lot of study into personalities and everything that goes with it.  Turns out I apparently have one of the rarer personality types.  Maybe that is why I struggle so much with the dilemma we are currently discussing

[who_knows11]

It seems like you’re looking at this from a polarity—lie or hide. What about responding in an anodyne way?  “I’d like to improve the way we communicate because I value our relationship.”

If you speak in generalities, then you’re responding. Then when asked for more information, how about turning the tables and asking her for specifics? “What do you think could improve the way we interact?”

If she tries to pin all the blame on you, then you might say, “Wow, that’s a lot to deal with. Can you narrow it down to the most important thing that you’d like to be different?”

It seems that asking for specificity can really dumbfound a pwBPD’s patterns, since they’re typically complaining about feelings that result from their all/never, right/wrong absolutist thinking patterns.

She does all the narrowing down her self.  She is very specific with her words and what she wants me to speak about.  If I get general it enrages her because she knows I am avoiding the specifics of the issue that she is asking about. 

[Cat Familiar]

Curious…are you talking about the Meyers Briggs personality types?

[alterK]

I understand exactly what you say about working directly on the issues. I have been there! I always considered myself a problem solver, and indeed prided myself on this ability (I'm a retired ER doc). It took a lot of persuasion by people who knew more than I did, plus a lot of direct experience with frustration, for me to realize that this approach just doesn't work.

You are starting to appreciate it in that lose-lose scenario, being accused of being selfish when you think you are being helpful by admitting to your partner that you are trying to change. People with personality disorders are coming from a place of fear to which they will never admit--at least not without long treatment. Their intimate relationships are built upon fantasy, denial and projection. They do not operate in a way that seems logical to others. Sorry if I seem blunt.

This is why you are so frustrated. You are right to feel that way. I'll just suggest you stop banging your head against a wall, and look in a different direction. There are things you can do to make your life better and possibly bring about improvements in your relationship, but your analytical, logical and problem-solving skills will not help in any way you are accustomed to. Changing your thinking isn't easy, but it's essential.

[FirstSteps]

Here's a direct question about this general topic from tonight.  I'm getting better and better at not bringing things up and not problem solving and not trying to control the situation (and then her).

Tonight in the car she asked me directly - what do you think is going on with me?  She has her own - changing - theories about why she suffers.  They are actually probably not wrong - just missing a couple of elements.  Though I also really, really don't want to be diagnosing her.

I was faced with the question - do I lie?  And I lied. And tried to figure out what she wanted to hear.  It felt ok - I'm getting better at compartmentalizing.  But it also sucks.  And I gave such a general wishy washy answer that she jumped all over it and is now "confused" about how I've seen her for our entire relationship.  

Anyone have advice on the direct questions?  Do they ever come up for you?

[2020]

You know what? I am one of those people who DID say that three letter word. She denied it, of course. Later when in a psych ward for a couple of weeks she said that she didn’t want to admit it, but I might be right. The doctors told her she could have ‘BPD traits’. Since then, I have mentioned it again in anger but it does no good. The only good for me is at least I know I have tried everything. But how many times need I bring it up?

I have started the high conflict couple book with her on a camping trip, but that fell by the wayside. It is a good book. I also highly recommend Imi Lo’s Emotional Sensitivity and Intensity book. I bought this for my partner. She got wind of the fact I ordered her a book and made fun of it. I cried and said I could see she was suffering and merely wanted to help her. When the book arrived she was touched by the gesture. She loved the book! There was someone out there who understood her! Then one night weeks later, she tore it to shreds with her bare hands in a drunken rage and threw it at me! It is difficult to know how to speak about what the underlying issue may be with a bpd partner. I still recommend this book as a gift to a partner. It may plant a seed.

[who_knows11]

Curious…are you talking about the Meyers Briggs personality types?

Yes those are the ones.  I found it very interesting and it also makes the borderline part of BPD make sense.  She acts at times as if she is both extrovert and introvert, sensing and intuitive, feeling and thinking, and judging and prospective.  She literally seems to straddle the fence for each trait

[Cat Familiar]

I’m an INTJ. I bet you have the TJ element too?

[who_knows11]

I understand exactly what you say about working directly on the issues. I have been there! I always considered myself a problem solver, and indeed prided myself on this ability (I'm a retired ER doc). It took a lot of persuasion by people who knew more than I did, plus a lot of direct experience with frustration, for me to realize that this approach just doesn't work.

You are starting to appreciate it in that lose-lose scenario, being accused of being selfish when you think you are being helpful by admitting to your partner that you are trying to change. People with personality disorders are coming from a place of fear to which they will never admit--at least not without long treatment. Their intimate relationships are built upon fantasy, denial and projection. They do not operate in a way that seems logical to others. Sorry if I seem blunt.

This is why you are so frustrated. You are right to feel that way. I'll just suggest you stop banging your head against a wall, and look in a different direction. There are things you can do to make your life better and possibly bring about improvements in your relationship, but your analytical, logical and problem-solving skills will not help in any way you are accustomed to. Changing your thinking isn't easy, but it's essential.

Don't worry, I'm looking for blunt.  I don't feel a need for things to be sugar coated.  That's part of the dilemma I started this thread with.  I guess my biggest issue to work through right now is that if I decide I'm not going to face a problem head on then I just move on and forget about it.  The only way that's possible is either divorce or talking about it.  So I'm trying to figure out what to do.  With my faith, divorce and lying are not an option I want to choose.  I know divorce happens sometime and it's not as clear cut even from the faith perspective (at least in my opinion) but that's a discussion for another place.  I'm willing to change some things about me but not my values

[who_knows11]

I’m an INTJ. I bet you have the TJ element too?

Believe it or not mine is INTP.  The prospecting vs judging seems odd at first because I'm so analytical.  But when it comes to deciding on a course of action I have difficulty settling on an answer because there is always the possibility of an unknown, better outcome from an unchosen option.  It just comes from being so open to out of the box ideas.  If I were a J as opposed to a P I feel like I would have already had this talk with my wife that we are discussing.  So thankfully I'm not quick on decisions

[grootyoda]

I can relate to a lot of what you are saying, particularly about how your faith plays into things. That's a huge part of my life as well and I know it can create a lot of internal conflict about what the "right" thing is to do.

I will echo a lot of what the other more experienced folks have said regarding talking about issues. In my experience with my pwBPD, talking through issues with them simply is not a productive process, with the possible exception of therapy sessions. Even then, my experience has been that the pwBPD may check out once the session ceases to play into their narratives.

When it is just the two of you, trying to talk through issues could result in a lot more negative outcomes than positive ones. My pwBPD frequently misremembers or takes my past words out of context to fit whatever mood she is currently in.

Alternatively, she will often triangulate a friend in, misrepresent my perspective, and then bring back their "agreement" with her as supporting evidence that I am in the wrong.

In other cases, you may find yourself slowly buying into a delusional narrative and convincing yourself that it's really you with the issues - this is particularly dangerous because whatever you admit to in those moments will almost definitely be filed away used against you later. I've made that mistake numerous times and I'm currently dealing with the fallout years later.

One book I would highly recommend is Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life. I'm finishing it right now and it has really helped me see things with clear eyes and put into practice some steps that are helping me get through the days more peacefully regardless of what is going on with my pwBPD. One of the things the author emphasizes over and over again in the book is that you should never expect talking about issues to accomplish or change anything in a relationship with a pwBPD. Accepting that truth has been an uncomfortable but helpful process for me.

[who_knows11]

Here's a direct question about this general topic from tonight.  I'm getting better and better at not bringing things up and not problem solving and not trying to control the situation (and then her).

Tonight in the car she asked me directly - what do you think is going on with me?  She has her own - changing - theories about why she suffers.  They are actually probably not wrong - just missing a couple of elements.  Though I also really, really don't want to be diagnosing her.

I was faced with the question - do I lie?  And I lied. And tried to figure out what she wanted to hear.  It felt ok - I'm getting better at compartmentalizing.  But it also sucks.  And I gave such a general wishy washy answer that she jumped all over it and is now "confused" about how I've seen her for our entire relationship.  

Anyone have advice on the direct questions?  Do they ever come up for you?

I got a direct question for why I act the way I do around her the other day.  I finally straight up told her because I have felt like I have to walk on eggshells around her.  I pretty much told her that's the way I have felt for our entire marriage.  She responded with the fact that she has always been this way and acted the same way in the beginning of our relationship.  She was half right.  She had BPD symptoms then too I just didn't realize it.  I told her that looking back now I can see how some of the things she did then were signs that she was the same way then, but that she manifested things differently.  For two days she was mad about it.  She asked if she had done the same things then that she does now would I still have married her.  I said I didn't know and it was impossible to know because things didn't happen that way.  That's a different reality that we will never know.  That sounds like a dodge to the question but it's an honest answer from me.  I can't say that I definitely would have still married her but I also don't know that I wouldn't have either.  That added to her anger.  But two nights ago she flipped completely.  Told me she was sorry she was so broken and understood that it is what makes me have to walk on eggshells around her.  I don't know if she actually thinks that or if it was just her cycling back around to that side of her BPD.  For me, I have decided that telling her what I think she wants to hear is a bad idea for me.  It may be different in other people's situation.  She many times can tell if I'm just trying to pacify the situation.  I don't lie as I have stated, but I have given generalized answer about things that I agree with that she has said, even when I think there is more to it.  She either knows I'm just trying to keep peace or she uses my answer as ammo against me later.  So if I'm going to have ammo used against me, I'm at least going to make sure it is from a genuine honest answer.  At least then I can say well we just have different beliefs or values about that.  I have no idea if that helps any at all, especially considering I started the thread with my own questions

[Cat Familiar]

I find it unhelpful to talk about *what’s wrong* and more helpful to talk about *what’s good* with my husband. When I have participated in discussions about things that are difficult to live with, sometimes he’s understood and seemingly had an epiphany. Those epiphanies can be short-lived as he will often forget about them, but remember and recast words that I’ve said, turning them into criticisms.

The more I’ve praised a particular behavior, the more frequently it has occurred.

Similarly, the more I’ve criticized a behavior, the more set in stone it’s become.

[who_knows11]

I can relate to a lot of what you are saying, particularly about how your faith plays into things. That's a huge part of my life as well and I know it can create a lot of internal conflict about what the "right" thing is to do.

I will echo a lot of what the other more experienced folks have said regarding talking about issues. In my experience with my pwBPD, talking through issues with them simply is not a productive process, with the possible exception of therapy sessions. Even then, my experience has been that the pwBPD may check out once the session ceases to play into their narratives.

When it is just the two of you, trying to talk through issues could result in a lot more negative outcomes than positive ones. My pwBPD frequently misremembers or takes my past words out of context to fit whatever mood she is currently in.

Alternatively, she will often triangulate a friend in, misrepresent my perspective, and then bring back their "agreement" with her as supporting evidence that I am in the wrong.

In other cases, you may find yourself slowly buying into a delusional narrative and convincing yourself that it's really you with the issues - this is particularly dangerous because whatever you admit to in those moments will almost definitely be filed away used against you later. I've made that mistake numerous times and I'm currently dealing with the fallout years later.

One book I would highly recommend is Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life. I'm finishing it right now and it has really helped me see things with clear eyes and put into practice some steps that are helping me get through the days more peacefully regardless of what is going on with my pwBPD. One of the things the author emphasizes over and over again in the book is that you should never expect talking about issues to accomplish or change anything in a relationship with a pwBPD. Accepting that truth has been an uncomfortable but helpful process for me.

I feel you on all of that.  I think my uBPDw has done all of those things at some point.  I also strongly agree about the agreeing with things.  I've never allowed her to drive me to question who I am, not that I'm perfect, or that I am the root cause of her issues.  But I do have things I could be better at and if I have ever agreed it always gets brought up later on

[who_knows11]

It seems that asking for specificity can really dumbfound a pwBPD’s patterns, since they’re typically complaining about feelings that result from their all/never, right/wrong absolutist thinking patterns.

Had an incident with this specificity thing last night.  She made a comment about how I should be thankful that she has been so patient about the way I treat her.  Thankful that she hasn't already ended it because she has been "putting up with it" for so long.  Then she says, "I've talked to a lot of other women that agreed you should be thankful because they would not have waited this long." I responded by asking who has said that and it was as if I had entered the nuclear codes and mashed the big red button.  She couldn't believe I was more concerned with how other women thought than how she thought.  She assumed it was all about the other women.  I told her no, it was about her because she was confident that her talking to them was a big enough piece of evidence against me. So much so that she brought it up to make a point, so I was just looking for the specifics about her point.  She would not even address who the specifics might have been.  I didn't really believe that she had actually heard that from anyone else so I asked to find out.  Is this typical?  CAT I know you said specifics can sometimes dumbfound their patterns. 

[Cat Familiar]

I’ve found that gently asking questions like, “You say you’ve been so patient about the way I treat you. I’m wanting to understand exactly what you mean. What about the way I treat you is problematic?”

You have to walk a fine line so it doesn’t sound like you’re being confrontational, but rather asking for more information. Sort of like, “Explain it to me like I’m five.”

Chances are she will get irritated and say something like, “You should know.” But if you persist, “I really don’t understand and I’d like to know exactly how you feel.”

You have to totally set aside any possible defensiveness and just listen with an open mind. Many times I’ve not gotten a detailed reply, only a “doesn’t matter” or “isn’t important” sort of response. But asking with sincerity and stating that you are *hoping to improve* your part in the relationship often can be beneficial.

Sometimes I think the mere fact that you are asking and open to hearing criticism is enough for them to realize that perhaps they’re making a big deal out of something that’s insignificant. Maybe not, but if there’s a genuine complaint, then you have the power to address it, once you know exactly what it is.