Calm vs rage

[15years]

It's easy to not agree to accusations or demands when she's in a full rage, it's harder to not accommodate her when she approach me in a calmly as I don't want to cause a scene.

An example: Feeling hurt about my ex from when I was 15 years old (right before I met my wife)
Rage mode
She: "You have tried to manipulate me by making me believe you see your ex as some kind of saint. Why don't you tell me the truth? You have been afraid to lose me and tried to make me fight for your love. You hate your ex and project that hate onto me."
Me: "um... I don't know, that's not what I've tried to do. I don't care about her" followed by silence as I have nothing more to add. (I've also tried "I'm sorry you feel that way" but it doesn't change the conversation much and I somehow want to say to her that I do not agree.)
She: "Why do you sit there and stare. What are you afraid of? I'll hit you if you don't pull yourself together"  - Might actually end with a physical attack.
Me: "Now calm down! You're crazy." - I leave the room and stare aggressively at her to scare her off. (it works)
She: "Oh so now you take the chance to leave. I'm tired of your violence!" (Yes she actually calls me violent in these situations)
I know this is super abusive so no need to point that out.


Calm mode:
She: "How do you explain that you've been in a relationship with someone like that?"
Me: "I don't know bla bla bla my family didn't talk about feelings bla bla bla, maybe I was drawn to the drama" - trying to keep her calm by saying something she wants to hear.
She: "That doesn't explain..." / "You have to understand that it's confusing for me..."
Me: manages to say something I'm not even sure what it means but somehow it relieves her of some pain and we can move on to something else. Maybe I tell her how much I hate my ex or something like that which is totally untrue because I don't know her, and she didn't damage me in our short relationship (4 months).

This ex was probably a conventional bpd (self harm) whereas my wife is probably more conventional bpd / sensitive npd / histrionic. She condemns conventional bpd traits.


I would like to develop some kind of stable way to deal with these sorts of discussions no matter what mood she is displaying. I don't want to agree with her but not invalidate her. At the same time I'm not at all in the mood for this relationship to continue, I'm hoping an end will present itself naturally or that I will grow even stronger over time as I have been doing these last couple of months.

Thanks for reading, this wasn't that well thought over as it could have been but I'm thinking about this a lot.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[15years]

And of course the calm mode will turn into rage mode in many cases and rage mode goes back to calm mode and most importantly it never ends.

[15years]

This ex was probably a conventional bpd (self harm) whereas my wife is probably more conventional bpd / sensitive npd / histrionic. She condemns conventional bpd traits.

Meant to say wife probably has unconventional bpd.

[Cat Familiar]

Best to never enter these discussions about your past.

You could say something like, “This is ancient history. I chose you. Let's talk about the present. I’m not interested in talking about past relationships.”

[FirstSteps]

I agree with Cat.  There is no winning if you even let the conversation start.  That said, I'm terrible at this but I'm at least accepting this reality.

I also find the calm harder than the anger at this point.  It makes me feel extra responsible for the dysregulation to come.  And sometimes of course she stays calm and it fades away, which makes me feel like there's a way to avoid the issues and control it.  Which I very much know is not productive.

I was going to write along these lines yesterday, though on a slightly different angle.  My wife has started sliding in small passive aggressive comments, and I'm unsure whether to ignore or validate or what.

"They only want the 88% of me that's fun, not the other 12% of real me.  Just like you do ..."

[15years]

That's a good response to that issue actually. Not too aggressive and not too weak either.

Now the latest argument (one hour ago) is she wants me to delete my imdb ratings history and last.fm music listening history (dating 15 years back). She is ashamed of herself and me for some of the music I've listened to and movies and tv-series I've watched and apparently forced her to watch/listen to. She says much of what I've watched and listened to stand for violence.

It makes her really sad and if I don't delete it I value those websites more than her.

I really won't do it because it's kind of important to me.

11 years ago I deleted my Facebook account because she asked me to. That has caused me many shameful moments because it really isn't who I am so I have lied to people and made them think it was my choice.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Your wife keeps invading your privacy. Firm boundaries need to be put in place : you are allowed to exist separate from her. You are allowed to love movies she doesn't like. You are allowed to listen and love music she hates.

If she says things like : "it means you like that music more than you love me". I would exit the conversation as soon as possible, because it is entering 'irrational land'. Possible answer: "I will not justify my tastes in music with you. I love you. However, this does not mean we have to share the exact same tastes in everything." Exit.

If she brings up your ex again: "I will not discuss the past with you, I am present oriented and interested in our future."

From my perspective, you keep justifying yourself, but those are completely irrational attacks.

One should not shame someone for having been with an ex. Everyone has an ex (or almost everyone) - Irrational blame.

One should not shame someone for having watched and liked a movie. - Irrational blame.

If you can recognize what she says are baseless accusations deprived of logic on the moment, then don't justify yourself and exit the room. "I will not have this discussion with you. I love you. I do not want to justify myself for something that happened in the past. I am interested in the present and our future."

Period. Exit.

If she comes at you with her fists high, you exit the house.

The problem is : codependent behaviors can stem from a thrill. I know, I feel it when I talk with my BPDm, and you know what? Part of me likes the fighting and the pain, as sick and twisted as it sounds, I love the adrenaline rush it gives me.

Until you can recognize and tame this part of you who enjoy the fights and abuse, you will not be able to put the much necessary boundaries in place that you need.

[Notwendy]

Riv3rwolf brought up a very revealing ( and significant ) point: the adrenaline ( and possibly endorphin ) response to the pain. In addition, if this is a familiar way of interacting, there is some comfort to the familiarity. Negative reinforcement is still reinforcement. It's attention. Being ignored feels worse.

When we respond by defending the invalid- this gives this validation. If it weren't valid, we'd have no reason to respond/defend it.

One example is if your wife accused you of being a pink elephant. You are certain you are not a pink elephant. You would not feel any desired to defend that you aren't one. In actuality, her accusations are also baseless. However somehow they impact some sense of insecurity about that, and you begin to question- maybe it's true? How many songs or TV shows/movies are completely devoid of any possible sexual or violent references? Even Bambi has some of those elements. One could interpret almost any show or music as meaning something.

When she makes an accusation that seems baseless to you, she feels bad about something and somehow finds an external "cause" for her feelings and approaches you to change something or explain to make her feel better. But no matter what you say or do, it doesn't solve the problem for her because the feelings are her own internal distress, projected on to something or someone ( you ) else. So as you have seen, discussions about what you did at age 15 don't stop her bringing it up, or deleting your Facebook and you know that deleting your song/music list won't solve her feelings either because, that isn't the cause. It's what she thinks is the cause in the moment.

It's kind of like if she had a sore throat, but demanded you take medicine to make it feel better. You could agree to do what she asks, and take it, but it would not help her sore throat, because it's hers, not yours.

From a purely behavioral perspective, a behavior continues because there is a payoff to doing it. There may be a cost to the behavior as well, but as long as the payoff is greater than the cost, the behavior will continue. Since this is repetitive behavior it must be working for her in some way, and you too, as you participate in it.

What does she get out of this? A perpetual sense of being a victim. And the perfect "crime"- something that happened in the past that can not be changed. And why has she chosen this particular situation? She can project her own feelings of shame, or jealousy or insecurity on to this, and accuse you of being the cause and that you have to fix them. But you can't fix something that isn't yours to fix in the first place.

She gets the adrenaline/endorphin rush from bringing up this emotional pain and arguing fighting with you, and also feeling "hurt" from you. This helps soothe her feelings. ( people also self harm or use substances to deal with painful emotional pain). Doing this with you works in a way for her and so she continues to do it.

On your part, you comply out of fear or wanting to avoid an escalation.

You also may feel an adrenaline rush from the intense emotions.

The behavior stops when the payoff for her diminishes. She has no motivation to stop it. It works for you. Your response to this would need to be different for a change to happen.

[FirstSteps]

I think this point about the adrenaline and the endorphins is super important, and it's a tough part to accept and then deal with.  I've been accepting that I get the endorphin kick when she calms down and is loving again.  That's me dealing with the "victim" end of an abusive cycle. 

But I have JADE-ed for too many years not to have gotten something out of the chaos.  No boredom, no stagnation, no routine.  It's finally taken a toll but I can't deny I like the highs and the lows.  I just need to be better now for my kids' sake and my own.

[15years]

Riv3rW0lf
Thanks for your input, I have not argued a lot with her in the past, more justified, defended and explained. Recently I have started arguing and it has helped me to not be afraid of her. She rarely gets violent from me arguing, she dislikes weakness so she respects me more when I argue back.

And you're right, it is beginning to feel like I love arguing. When I'm stuck arguing, I don't want to stop.

I'll have to use the same strategy as I do when the kids drive me crazy; I feel like I will never like them again but I know I will feel differently very soon so I just wait it out

So the same in this situation; I feel like I don't care about anything else than arguing, but I know I will feel differently after a while if I stop arguing.

The template being; I feel x which makes me wanna do y and I know z is what I will feel later and when I feel z I don't wanna do y anymore.

[15years]

Notwendy
Being ignored feels worse.
Sound harsh but I get it. I have to kind of ignore or act cold (not emotionally invest myself) to certain kind of "communication".

It's kind of like if she had a sore throat, but demanded you take medicine to make it feel better. You could agree to do what she asks, and take it, but it would not help her sore throat, because it's hers, not yours.
Sounds like my response works like a placebo to her despair then? It may work for a while but not long.

She gets the adrenaline/endorphin rush from bringing up this emotional pain and arguing fighting with you, and also feeling "hurt" from you. This helps soothe her feelings. ( people also self harm or use substances to deal with painful emotional pain). Doing this with you works in a way for her and so she continues to do it.
I hadn't realized she gets a rush from this and that it works the same as self harm. Interesting.

On your part, you comply out of fear or wanting to avoid an escalation.
I think I want to avoid guilt. That's why she pushes me on the sexual violence thing all the time. She told me I'm some kind of "culture good guy rapist" (rough translation) and proud of it. She really has a a hard time tolerating "good guys" pretending to be innocent.

She named the movie Requiem for a dream as an example, I loved that movie and she pointed out there is a sadistic scene involving anal penetration of two girls that I somehow had forgot about. So my guilt tells me I can't defend my love for that movie.

[Notwendy]

I am not sure placebo is the best description but it's a temporary lull in the emotional discomfort, more like taking drugs or alcohol is a temporary escape.

But it doesn't solve the problem for her, because it's her difficulty in managing her own emotions that leads her to finding external solutions.

Intense emotions produce a drug like "rush" for anyone. It's important that we realize this as well. Have you ever felt bad and exhausted after an emotional exchange? A while ago, a counselor recommended I attend a 12 step group for co-dependency.

At first, I was puzzled, as alcohol is not a concern. There was talk about "emotional sobriety" which I didn't understand at first. But I knew the feeling after being involved in these kinds of emotional exchanges and recognized the idea of an "emotional hangover" being similar to a hangover the night after someone drinks too much and then understood why these exchanges can have an addictive affect. (the definition of addiction being using something to escape uncomfortable feelings). The goal of avoiding them is emotional sobriety.

If we look at these arguments as serving a purpose for both people (or they would not continue) then the accusation becomes the "hook" to us as we get right into it. They need the emotional "fix" but we find it hard to resist. I began to see this at this in the same way someone would hand an alcoholic a drink.  

What's your "drink?"

That's something for you to figure out, if you want this to stop ( more likely decrease- as it may not stop altogether all at once but you can work on it)

 I think you have identified it: avoid guilt.

Just like you can't control her feelings ( those are hers to control)- this feeling of guilt is yours. You are both actually turning to each other to manage your own feelings. For this to change- you need to manage yours. The main topic of these accusations is your sexuality and her bringing up the idea that you may have some enjoyment from something or someone else besides her elicits guilt on your part.

So, I am guessing as I can't know what someone is thinking, but with BPD there's insecurity, fear of abandonment, jealousy:

He enjoys being with someone else ( even in the past) or a movie, or a music. That's wrong. I feel hurt, it's his fault (victim perspective). He needs to fix this- so accuses you and you need to fix her feelings.

This somehow elicits guilt on your part so you get drawn into the argument to relieve your own feelings.

Do you want this to stop? One suggestion is to address the guilt with your therapist/counselor. This may be from childhood or something you did that you feel badly about. No need for confessions here on the board- it's something to do for you, with someone who you trust and who has the skill to guide you through them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Requiem for a dream is the only movie I loved, but will never watch again because of how traumatizing it was to me. I ended up crying for thirty minutes, long after the credits were done rolling.

You can defend your love for this movie, it is a very strong movie. This movie is a critic of all the ravages drugs can do and a very strong critic of society. It is a piece of art, with a very strong message, shown in a very hard way which not everyone can stomach.

I remember that scene, it was a deeply humiliating scene. A very strong one. I remember feeling such disgust... Still, I loved that movie BECAUSE of that disgust. The disgust was the message...

I just wanted to defend that movie for you. You are not alone loving that movie.

Was she, by any chance, sexually assaulted? Or is she just embracing the whole woke culture? Because most of her blame really is... I don't know... it is disturbing to me. Like she is harboring a lot of hate toward men?

Also, the second you argue (defend) or justify : you are acting guilty, even if you are not. So I second Notwendy in trying to find the source of this guilt, which is probably hiding in a trauma from your past.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Riv3rW0lf
Thanks for your input, I have not argued a lot with her in the past, more justified, defended and explained. Recently I have started arguing and it has helped me to not be afraid of her. She rarely gets violent from me arguing, she dislikes weakness so she respects me more when I argue back.

And you're right, it is beginning to feel like I love arguing. When I'm stuck arguing, I don't want to stop.

I'll have to use the same strategy as I do when the kids drive me crazy; I feel like I will never like them again but I know I will feel differently very soon so I just wait it out

So the same in this situation; I feel like I don't care about anything else than arguing, but I know I will feel differently after a while if I stop arguing.

The template being; I feel x which makes me wanna do y and I know z is what I will feel later and when I feel z I don't wanna do y anymore.

Just wanted to add: you could be addicted to the guilt too... The guilt and shame is what you know and what this relationship is enabling you to relive again and again, it seems.

Guilt is a default of mine too. The way I see it is when I feel guilty, it means I have a power to change things.. if it is my fault, then I have power to make it better, right? Wrong... It is just me continuing, as an adult, the abuse I suffered as a young child.

The thing is, I first started feeling guilty at a very young age, for things that were NOT my fault, and still today, I tend to carry blame for everyone's feelings and behaviors when I have nothing to do with those and have NO power over those. So why the guilt? It is a scar I am carrying around from my mother's drinking and BPD, for having felt, for so long, somehow responsible for her pain.  And I am slowly learning to detach myself from the guilt that is not mine to carry. It is a process. It takes time. It is a learned behavior that can be unlearned.

[FirstSteps]

This idea of addiction and emotional sobriety is a powerful one for me as well.  Because I definitely find myself drawn to the cycle, and I definitely feel "hungover" right now as I let a circular conversation go on 20 minutes too long this morning and now I can hear my wife weeping downstairs after she insists we're doomed.  This is hard work - to address that and find healthier ways to be.  I'm quite good at resisting most external destructive behaviors but maybe that's because I've had my own stash inside me the whole time.  Ugh.

[Notwendy]

I wonder about past trauma concerning your wife as well, since she seems to be personalizing scenes and characters in movies and TV shows. Also boundaries.

There are many reasons to love a movie- a movie isn't about just one scene. Think of the popularity of shows like Mad Men, or Breaking Bad. Liking them doesn't mean a person likes serial womanizers, or thinks it's OK to make drugs in their basement, or do any of the activities portrayed in them. It's the story, the complexity of the characters and the acting.

IMHO, you don't have to defend why you like a certain show. It doesn't say anything about whether or not you approve of what the characters do.  People who have appropriate boundaries know the difference between these two things.

There's also a reason that popular actors/actresses are also attractive. People like to look at them. Again, it's boundaries. If I notice an attractive actor- yes, I notice them. But I also know that actor with makeup, lights, and on a movie set, isn't the same in real life,  and it's not cheating to have noticed someone on TV, miles away, who I have not ever met and probably won't meet. Same if my H notices a pretty actress. There's no need to feel guilty for just being human.

[Notwendy]

I'm quite good at resisting most external destructive behaviors but maybe that's because I've had my own stash inside me the whole time. 

Exactly! Same here. I also thought, well I don't drink or use drugs, it's not a problem for me. Then, sitting in a 12 step meeting, finally understanding why I felt emotionally drained after a circular argument, I thought wow- I don't even have to go to the store to buy this kind of "stash". It's free and readily available. 

But I wanted "emotional sobriety" and so this idea helped me to recognize my own tendencies to respond to these types of exchanges- and be more able to avoid this.

[FirstSteps]

Notwendy: That's incredible that you achieved that.  Congratulations!

What 12 step program did you attend?

I started reading a lot about co-dependency last year and thought about attending meetings but I felt more like a "caretaker" than truly co-dependent.  This makes me question that and might give me a better way to approach the meetings.

I also see that staying committed to a pwBPD means staying "sober" while living with an active addict, if we're going to use the metaphor.  It's an instructive and different way for me to think about it. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

For me, things started improving when I started going toward the men who attracted me less.

When I met my husband, I had my eyes on another guy, the kind
 of guy who would drop by my place, drunk, at 3am for a quick fix. And I would feel deeply used and lonely and abandoned. My husband was the first ever to make compliments to me completely empty of any critic, to treat me like a princess, like someone special to protect and care for. It felt off to me. He talked so much, almost got on my nerves... I decided to try it out, against my body wishes... I felt no body chemistry, just ... Friendship maybe, but no butterflies or passion. He did so I thought ... Meh, worst case, it doesn't work out. Well.. still here 7 years later, and deeply in love. This relationship has been a gift and is a gift that keep on giving. While this other guy still drink his nights off...

Sometimes, going against our wants is what we truly need.

[Cat Familiar]

Often, especially when we have a BPD parent, our relationship “picker” is malfunctioning. Congratulations Riv3rWOlf on finding an emotionally healthy partner.

[15years]

Comparing this to alcoholism makes sense today, she had one of her interventions yesterday, talked about the trauma I've caused her from years of rape. She definitely said the word rape or rapist 100 times. At least I'm not that "hungover" today as I didn't interfere that much.

The "intervention"-style discussions, compared to anger and rage, is a kind of serious talk that are calm but desperate and emotional, the feeling is her begging me to change and she speaks directly to my guilt. The goal is an "us against the world" bond. In yesterdays intervention the means to achieve the goal (the bond) would be me deleting my IMDb and Last.fm accounts or at least starting over from scratch. I didn't comply but didn't protest either.

Some example of things I've done in the past that she asked me to do, which I'm quite ashamed to admit (and I'm sorry if this is over sharing):
2011
- deleted my facebook account.
2013
- stayed home from a social event with relatives from another country because of her acne.
2020
- sent accusatory messages to my parents because she said I had unresolved anger towards
them.
2021 (the most intense year but the demands also became more overt because of a crisis)
- stayed home from work on a few occasions.
- helped her contact her ex-"emotional lover" again after a few years break.
- called my brother and accused him of being a bad role model when we grew up. She gave me notes what to say so I also called him a pig and that our whole family are pigs.
- recounted in detail my alleged sexual abuse of her to her mother over the phone.
- made a speech in front of my family, declaring my love for her. It wasn't good enough so I had to repeat the speech and add that I hadn't been a good boyfriend and that she deserved better.
- proposed to her via video call while already married because I never proposed properly. I had done this one time before (2019) also and bought a new ring.
- agreed to plan a new "proper" wedding. This is on ice for now. Will come up again I'm sure.
- admitted that I have abused her.
2022
- went along with her idea and allowed my parents to apologize to my wife in front of the kids (maybe you remember this, and yes I complied eventually).
- saying I'm sorry for suggesting we watch the fyre festival-documentary.
- most recently deleting my IMDb ratings of Game of Thrones (watched several seasons "behind her back") and American Pie (watched in my early teens). Figured this is not a sacrifice.

I know it's my responsibility what I agree to. In some of the above mentioned examples she hasn't been calm but still there is the hope of us bonding if I agree. Not agreeing makes her think I want to be her enemy.

[Notwendy]

15 Years- your list of things you did has some familiar elements to what I saw with my own parents. First, I want to assure you, while you may feel some shame, there's no judgment on my part, I have seen this and understand the reasons.

FirstSteps- you asked what kind of 12 step groups and I have attended a few different kinds and it seems more like the mix of people in a group than the actual title, and I think I was very fortunate that the first group had many knowledgeable people there. These are lay groups, and so having experienced members who are able to lead is helpful. While my BPD mother has been the larger challenge, I could see the connection to bringing learned dysfunctional patterns into marriage and how this impacts attraction and these patterns were there too, but on thankfully a milder scale than those in my family of origin, but still an issue for me. It was a marriage counselor who pointed out my co-dependent behaviors and recommended the 12 step group.

This group was a mixed one. Some of the members were also attending specific ones like AA, CODA, but somehow having all different "addictions" in a group  helped me make the connection to co-dependent behaviors. I surely didn't at first. The other "luck" was the sponsor I had. Sitting in meetings alone is like scratching the surface but working with a sponsor - who prompted a lot of self reflection- made a big difference in helping me see and change certain behaviors. When we grow up with dysfunction, we learn behaviors that are "normal" and functional in that context. Once someone showed me what part I was taking in dysfunction,  I could work on that. Eventually though, that sponsor moved, and I went to an ACA group. I also have attended a CODA group. They both have been helpful to some extent, but to me, the first sponsor was a huge help- and I would recommend that to anyone considering these groups- and if one sponsor doesn't seem to "click" then try again.

To 15years- shame is hard to deal with. Actually a part of working with a sponsor on the 12 steps deals with that- there's a connection to shame and guilt and how these feelings drive an addiction, and one of the steps is to make a kind of list like you have and share it with a sponsor- more than what one would share online. The sponsor then methodically takes you to look at the personal cost to you for shame, resentment and once you see the cost to you, the choice to let it go is there. Also apologies- a chance to make amends but with a clause- it's to be willing to make amends but to do so, one needs to consider if the amends will cause harm to anyone ( including you). So the point isn't to call up everyone you have ever felt you harmed as it may not be appropriate. But the whole process of examining things we feel badly about with a supportive and non judgmental person is helpful. There are probably different ways to do this- counselor, or sponsor, but I think it helps.

And this includes yourself. We can be angry with ourselves. Self forgiveness is important. I suspect that if you can forgive your 15 year old self -you were a teenager- not judging yourself from the adult perspective, you are less likely to feel emotionally triggered when your wife brings it up.

And to the list of things you did- I saw my father do some similar things and I didn't understand why. But once I looked at my own co-dependent behaviors I could understand this better. As to how your wife wanted you to treat your family members, my BPD mother also prompted him to treat me in a similar way. I could not understand why he did this and so this was part of my motivation to understand why and eventually I was able to understand it wasn't personal to me. I am willing to bet that every person on this board can relate to giving up certain things in order to appease a partner or other family member. Maybe not the same things, but the pattern.

[15years]

I actually recorded most of our conversations (or her monlogue) yesterday because I forget so easily and won't remember most of it. Would it be going too far to post it in writing here? Could it be helpful?

[Notwendy]

I don't know- I am not a moderator. But it's important to not post things that could be identifying. I have seen people post conversations and texts, so I know it's been done. But if you do, I think it's best to paraphrase them- so the idea is there but not so exactly that someone reading it could see exactly who it is and also keep content and language appropriate for the board.

[Riv3rW0lf]

You know what is helpful for you, but in terms of understanding your relationships root, I don't think specific events are that important.

One question popped when I read your last post : what is your family saying about this relationship? Do they approve it? When you called her mother to tell her about abuse, did she think this was normal? How about your brother and your family? Is there anyone, in your family, that tried to talk with you about what was going on?

Like Notwendy,  I am not judging you and don't want to add to your shame, I am concerned that she is isolating you from people you love, and that love you, in order to fill her own void,  by using shame and guilt, and I worry about your loneliness in all of this.

[Notwendy]

Good questions Riv3rwOlf,

On that note though, family may feel they need to keep their opinions to themselves for fear of losing what contact with you they may have left. My father's family had their own opinions but felt it was best to not speak of them.

As to your wife giving you scripts to read to your family, I have heard these scripts- wondering how my father could say these things to me,  and there were several times I suspected my mother was the one who decided that. It wasn't just with him though, also the golden child of the family. Once, my father asked me to check his email messages for him and gave me his password. I found a humiliating email that the GC apparently was "forced" to write to apologize to my BPD mother.

So 15 years, no judgement from me. I understand the dynamics and the situation you are in. I would guess your family would like to be more supportive if they could be but maybe feel they need to not intrude.

[15years]

My own family - they know much but not the full extent, I talk to my mother since a few months back but try not to involve her too much. I can answer honestly now at least if she asks how I'm doing. Notwendy is right about them being careful to not loose contact. And overall they don't want to talk because it's uncomfortable too and I get that. I haven't told them about the physical violence, I'm afraid they would do something drastic and cause a scene.

I would like to apologize to my brother for that awkward call I made, but have not gotten to it yet, he hasn't mentioned it since.

Her family - I have a feeling they are siding with me but everybody tries to not offend her. This made me feel really guilty and narcissistic in the past, that I somehow trick them to like me, turning even her own family against her. Her mother is traumatized by accusations she says. Right now they are getting along but I can see how nervous she is and she occasionally let some fearful / passive aggressive remark slip to my knowledge. It's a ticking bomb really. My MIL herself has some strong bpd signs especially from what my wife has told me about her childhood but also from what I see how she treats my father in law.

The awkward call to my MIL has not affected my relationship to her. During the call she told me that she had heard enough but my wife kept pushing me to give more details. At that moment they we're getting along too so it wasn't to offend her in any way, more like her being a rescuer.

Her father is the only person I have talked honestly to about the violence (twice) and he tries to give me tips on how to avoid it, one thing he told me is I should not agree to everything she says because then she won't respect me. My wife herself once told her dad about the violence and they had both agreed that it will stop from that point on. He actually believed it had stopped so he was shocked to find out it had continued. Then later when I told him again about it, he was once again shocked that it hadn't stopped.

My wife occasionally tells people that we are now doing better and everyone believes her and both my FIL and MIL has expressed to me on more then one occasion that they are relieved that we are doing better, to which I have disappointed them and told them we're not. Most recently two months ago we were at a birthday party for my wife's nephew and while me, my wife and her sister-in-law were sitting around a table she began talking about our relationship having improved much and that I (me) have matured, but that we both have issues to work on still. That made me feel so lonely and I have had an urge to talk to her sister-in-law  and ask what she thinks about all this, because I have no clue what they have talked about.

[Riv3rW0lf]

And overall they don't want to talk because it's uncomfortable too and I get that. I haven't told them about the physical violence, I'm afraid they would do something drastic and cause a scene.

This sentence says a lot  more about your internal life than you think. The slipping under the rug dynamic mixed with a fear of an overreaction on their part, is it where you come from? Tiptoeing around truth to appease your family, fearing an overaction? Not wanting to disturb?  Maybe I am off, completely, I don't know you, but I hear a faint whisper there, trying to make it to your conscious mind, through your wife.

I thought my own mother and family dynamics were regular, for a very long time. I wasn't even aware my mother was borderline. You don't know what you don't know. Since opening Pandora's box, I have realized a great many deals about who I am and how I kept pushing myself down, even recalled some memories I had repressed.

I invite you to reflect on this specific sentence. The fear of their overreaction... Was it something that happened when you were young? They would overreact on things about you to people you liked, loved, making you feel ashamed, and guilty, maybe? Just asking questions, you don't have to answer.

We all have family dynamics. They made us who we are. And some of those dynamics are unhealthy and will make a child feel worthless, guilty, unloved... It doesn't take much. Trauma is not always big, sometimes it is just a subtle invalidation that is being constantly repeated, and you start to believe it is true, against all your body instincts. You stop to listen to yourself, you forget yourself...

I think you have to take a real hard look inside and find yourself. For one day, do not think of your wife behaviors, do not try to solve it. Instead : look inside.

Find your power. You are here, I read other posts from you about how much you love your kids and try to validate and protect them within all this mess. You are here, in this forum, everyday, trying to understand it, make light on it. This is not easy work you are doing, and there is no shame. You are being an amazing father just being here trying to better yourself, I hope you know that.

Understanding BPD is one part of the puzzle, but you also have to look within yourself, on the internal things that keep driving you toward shame and guilt.

[15years]

I think I'm afraid my mom and dad would contact her parents or do some kind of intervention and trying to get her help, not understanding the first thing about bpd, and making me feel like an immature child in the process (this actually happened when they heard rumors that my wife (then girlfriend) was having an affair. My mom called her mom and they had an argument). I think I identified some problems in my family of origin when I read the book about childhood emotional neglect (CEN). The description of a loving family who still neglects the childrens emotions fit quite well. Rather than what they did it's about what they didn't do. It's like I had two codependent parents who were afraid of emotions.

There's really nothing that indicates someone in my family/extended family having a pd but some of us has attracted partners with such tendencies.

Negative emotions was not that appreciated to say the least, we siblings never fought or argued. So having negative emotions caused guilt. But still there was feelings under the surface all the time and I was very afraid of them, mostly minor issues such as irritation. Mom could/can be a little passive aggressive. I see this dynamic in my sisters family too and that's why I have thought my wife has such a good impact on our kids. But they get the walking on eggshells instead.

Thank you for your encouraging words and support.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think I'm afraid my mom and dad would contact her parents or do some kind of intervention and trying to get her help, not understanding the first thing about bpd, and making me feel like an immature child in the process (this actually happened when they heard rumors that my wife (then girlfriend) was having an affair.

This is an overstep in boundaries. Maybe it was well meaning, but it still is an overstep. Was it something they did often when you were a teenager? Or a child? Stepping in on every fight? Maybe overprotectively?

Guilt serves a purpose, it enables us to know when we did something wrong, so we can correct it. When we cannot solve the issue ourselves, or make amends ourselves... I wonder what happens.

Valid shame exists too, to help us fit into society, into a community. Feeling it all the time, however, for reasons outside our control , or for things that aren't even shameful nor hurtful (like loving a movie, or song), is a dissonance between past and present.

It is easier to project our shame and guilt onto present events, but the risk is, by assuming it stems from the present, from the way someone is acting, that we never find the real root cause, and we remain trapped into unhealthy dynamics.