so hard to walk away from the guilt trip

[FirstSteps]

I've been working hard recently to set reasonable boundaries with my uPBDw, and it's been choppy and chaotic but absolutely working - at least in terms of aggression.  I even backed off pushing for more changes after some advice here on not expecting too much change too fast.

However, she has found a new soft spot.  She's now acting like a hurt child and vows to follow all my new "rules".  Then it's about how she knows there is no place for the "real" her and she just needs to get in line to survive.  Then she asks to confirm small things I've said as absolute rules.  It goes on.

This quickly dissolved today into her saying that by following my "rules" she is denying her true self and we can't even have check-ins or any alone time.  And that was quickly followed by talk of separating and divorce.  

Anyway, it was all done very calmly and quietly without the kids around.  And it was during the time we had agreed to have what she calls "real" conversations.  I did eventually have to walk away because I had a work meeting, though we had gone 25 minutes into my work day.

I understand this was to be expected.  But I find myself without tools for staying true to myself in the face of helpless weeping.  This has not been our normal pattern before.  Previously, when she has done it, I have always caved immediately, as it finally signaled that she was re-regulating after hours of aggression.  You could see her persona shift from persecutor to just a vulnerable person and then she would calm after I hugged her.  But this is new and different with none of that positive association (which was actually dysfunctional, I know).

Anyone have any tips for what to say in these situations?  She rejects SET out of hand the moment I try to validate.  I guess it's just about walking away, like if she's dysregulated with anger?  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

Think about the extinction burst, when a behavior that was previously reinforced is no longer reinforced. First, try more of the same behavior. If that doesn't work, try something else.

When we learn new relationship skills ( as you are doing ), we add another "tool" to our relationship skills box. The other person may also learn new tools, eventually, but first, they will use the "tools" they have. Your wife can only use the ones she has and so, she will try them, until she learns they don't work. At this point, she may learn to adapt to your new boundaries. It makes sense she's using the "tools" she has used that have worked for her when she relates to you.

On the parent board, there's discussion of "characters" in the book "Understanding the Borderline Mother" that help us to understand how our BPD mother's relate to us. The personas are: Queen, Witch, and Waif.

My closest experience to this is with my mother who is predominantly in Queen. She will demand I do something. If I don't comply, then she can change quickly into "Witch" (raging and mean) which, historically has scared me. ("Witch" is scary to kids). Mostly these two worked. We were afraid to not comply with what she asked.

However, adults are not as afraid of Witch. This would include my father and also me, as an adult. When Queen and Witch don't work, she then goes to Waif. Waif is the hardest. This is the weeping and crying and being so hurt. I know that this really affected my father. He couldn't stand to see her upset. But it is a manipulation. Yes, she may be "hurt" in the moment, but she seemed to snap out of it quickly too if it led to letting go of a boundary.

Waif is the hardest for me as well. She's an elderly widow, and regardless of any difficulties between us, I really don't want her to think I am being hurtful to her. I am not the kind of person who would ever want to cause hurt to an elderly parent.

The only way to avoid her accusing is to just say yes to her, even if it crosses a boundary. Her perception of herself as a victim puts me in the bad guy position, and this isn't what I wish to do, so Waif is a struggle for me. She also continues to be verbally abusive to me and so the best way I know to not tolerate this, and not be hurtful is to disengage and not say anything back.

So here are some examples of the different personas.

Queen: She asks or demands me to do something that I do not wish to do. Mostly I do what I am willing to do, but she sometimes asks what I can not do. I say "no"

Witch: she gets angry and verbally abusive. Calls me names, says hurtful things to me. I ignore them.

Waif: She then says something sad- for instance if she's not feeling well and how it feels worse. I recall when I was staying with them she was up all night loudly crying and wailing and nobody got any sleep. Once she was saying mean things to me about my father ( who can't verify or deny them now) and so I said to her "I will not discuss my father with you". Her reply "You won't allow me to talk about my husband".

I empathize with you at how hard this is, but I think if we see this as them using the tools they have, and that it is one of them, it might help a bit to hold your boundaries and then hopefully she will adjust to them.

[FirstSteps]

Notwendy - This is also super helpful.  Thanks for all your great advice today

I've seen those personas before but they make more sense if I think about her cycling through them.  She is absolutely leaning on Waif now that Queen and Witch (which did actually scare me even as an adult!) are not as effective.

It does help to think that she is just using an existing tool to deal with both my change and the fact that our relationship was deteriorating even before I started changing.  I do feel honest sympathy for her on many levels, which is the problem.  She didn't ask for covid, some serious physical issues and for our kids to grow up in ways that shook her.

I will keep using my new tools.  It's funny how I'm still afraid she'll leave, even though I'm closer to leaving than she is.  But these threats and manipulations still trigger me into terrified impulses to please her.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It's funny how I'm still afraid she'll leave, even though I'm closer to leaving than she is.  But these threats and manipulations still trigger me into terrified impulses to please her.

When I first started therapy, my therapist asked me to read a book :  "Reinventing your life". It's on schematherapy. One of them is Fear of Abandonment... We don't have to be borderlines to fear abandonment... I am not borderline, but this is one I have struggled with a lot too.

If you are interested, the book talks at length on the various schemes and steps to take to improve, and recognize them. There is a checklist to see which could apply for you to help you see yourself better.

I thought it was a helpful tool...

[healthfreedom4s]

FirstSteps,
I am in a similar situation, trying to set boundaries for the first time in my 15-year relationship.

I think crying/weeping is just another form of dysregulated state. I think the appropriate response could be - give a firm message of reaffirming love and expressing inability to handle things at that moment and walk away. Something like - "I want you to know that I care about you and understand how you feel. But I am sorry that I am unable to handle things at this moment".

I will keep using my new tools.  It's funny how I'm still afraid she'll leave, even though I'm closer to leaving than she is.  But these threats and manipulations still trigger me into terrified impulses to please her.

I can totally relate to the "pull of going into comforting mode". I have conditioned myself for so long, so it is the default response for me. I am trying to retrain my brain on this aspect.

[Rev]

Think about the extinction burst, when a behavior that was previously reinforced is no longer reinforced. First, try more of the same behavior. If that doesn't work, try something else.

When we learn new relationship skills ( as you are doing ), we add another "tool" to our relationship skills box. The other person may also learn new tools, eventually, but first, they will use the "tools" they have. Your wife can only use the ones she has and so, she will try them, until she learns they don't work. At this point, she may learn to adapt to your new boundaries. It makes sense she's using the "tools" she has used that have worked for her when she relates to you.

On the parent board, there's discussion of "characters" in the book "Understanding the Borderline Mother" that help us to understand how our BPD mother's relate to us. The personas are: Queen, Witch, and Waif.

My closest experience to this is with my mother who is predominantly in Queen. She will demand I do something. If I don't comply, then she can change quickly into "Witch" (raging and mean) which, historically has scared me. ("Witch" is scary to kids). Mostly these two worked. We were afraid to not comply with what she asked.

However, adults are not as afraid of Witch. This would include my father and also me, as an adult. When Queen and Witch don't work, she then goes to Waif. Waif is the hardest. This is the weeping and crying and being so hurt. I know that this really affected my father. He couldn't stand to see her upset. But it is a manipulation. Yes, she may be "hurt" in the moment, but she seemed to snap out of it quickly too if it led to letting go of a boundary.

Waif is the hardest for me as well. She's an elderly widow, and regardless of any difficulties between us, I really don't want her to think I am being hurtful to her. I am not the kind of person who would ever want to cause hurt to an elderly parent.

The only way to avoid her accusing is to just say yes to her, even if it crosses a boundary. Her perception of herself as a victim puts me in the bad guy position, and this isn't what I wish to do, so Waif is a struggle for me. She also continues to be verbally abusive to me and so the best way I know to not tolerate this, and not be hurtful is to disengage and not say anything back.

So here are some examples of the different personas.

Queen: She asks or demands me to do something that I do not wish to do. Mostly I do what I am willing to do, but she sometimes asks what I can not do. I say "no"

Witch: she gets angry and verbally abusive. Calls me names, says hurtful things to me. I ignore them.

Waif: She then says something sad- for instance if she's not feeling well and how it feels worse. I recall when I was staying with them she was up all night loudly crying and wailing and nobody got any sleep. Once she was saying mean things to me about my father ( who can't verify or deny them now) and so I said to her "I will not discuss my father with you". Her reply "You won't allow me to talk about my husband".

I empathize with you at how hard this is, but I think if we see this as them using the tools they have, and that it is one of them, it might help a bit to hold your boundaries and then hopefully she will adjust to them.

Oh my ...  is this wonderful.

I'd add this.

The toughest part of this was, at least for me, to come to a place where I had to come to terms with the fact that once I laid a boundary, and neutralized (as best as possible) the abuse, that did not mean she would change necessarily.

Rev

[15years]

This sums up my guilt problems. It's the reason why it's so hard to stay, and so hard to leave. I would happily leave the witch. And the Queen. They can take care of themselves. But the Waif needs me, and if I leave her I leave a vulnerable child in the arms of eternal abandonment.

Yesterday I listened to a lot of her weeping but I avoided getting sucked in. Still, there is that doubt; "Am I trying to turn into a sociopath". Does that sound familiar?

One reminder though is that our own feelings shift quite quickly too. If the Waif suddenly shifts back to the Witch, the sympathy for the Waif seems strangely distant. Does that sound familiar?

[Rev]

This sums up my guilt problems. It's the reason why it's so hard to stay, and so hard to leave. I would happily leave the witch. And the Queen. They can take care of themselves. But the Waif needs me, and if I leave her I leave a vulnerable child in the arms of eternal abandonment.

Yesterday I listened to a lot of her weeping but I avoided getting sucked in. Still, there is that doubt; "Am I trying to turn into a sociopath". Does that sound familiar?

One reminder though is that our own feelings shift quite quickly too. If the Waif suddenly shifts back to the Witch, the sympathy for the Waif seems strangely distant. Does that sound familiar?

Hi 15 years,

It sounds like you are making progress in the right direction.

Given that this a thread started by someone who appears to be struggling with some of the same challenges as you, it might be neat if you could share some things that you have acquired for yourself.

I.e. - are there concrete things you have done that are working for you?

Thoughts?

Rev

[15years]

I.e. - are there concrete things you have done that are working for you?

Thanks Rev, I do think I have made progress. Mostly by not taking things too personally.

And more recently, I have started to realize the positive effect of not involving myself in the drama by arguing. I had already started to realize the positive effect of not justifying, defending or explaining, but not arguing. Maybe because I have not argued back much in the past. I started arguing back a lot the last two months, and that's how I finally identified what the A in JADE stands for.


FirstSteps,
I have a theory, although they use the weeping and crying if necessary, I think they might be a bit ashamed of it, that it's 'beneath them' to be a victim. That's why if it works, it feels like they deny it a bit afterwards, or at least downplay the effect it had on us. Also maybe they're ashamed of us, that we were so easily manipulated. Just a thought. Have you noticed something like this?

If it doesn't work, how long will it take before they give up the waif-role?

I guess the way to go to avoid feeling guilty is to be empathetic while still not caving in. Don't give them anything to use against us.

[grootyoda]

This sums up my guilt problems. It's the reason why it's so hard to stay, and so hard to leave. I would happily leave the witch. And the Queen. They can take care of themselves. But the Waif needs me, and if I leave her I leave a vulnerable child in the arms of eternal abandonment.

Yesterday I listened to a lot of her weeping but I avoided getting sucked in. Still, there is that doubt; "Am I trying to turn into a sociopath". Does that sound familiar?

One reminder though is that our own feelings shift quite quickly too. If the Waif suddenly shifts back to the Witch, the sympathy for the Waif seems strangely distant. Does that sound familiar?

I can relate to this one. I get the "am I turning into the bad guy here?" feeling at least once a week, if not once a day. The "Waif" concept seems really helpful for pushing back at this. My pwBPD's go-to is along the lines of "Are you OK? I can tell there's something wrong that you won't talk about". I'm starting to recognize this as a tactic to get me re-engaged in a conflict cycle, rather than genuine concern, but I still get that feeling that I'm being cold and stonewalling, regardless. I'll even get the urge to come up with an issue (imagined or not) just to appease her, but I'm realizing now that is just feeding the cycle and it's not healthy to anyone.

[FirstSteps]

Riv3rW0lf - thanks for the book tip.  I've bought and started it   I am fascinated that I am benefiting from so many of the tools I wish my wife would use.  At times, I think I'm only different in that I'm self-aware and the rest is a matter of degree (though a lot of degrees!)

healthfreedom4s - that's a really good tip - to show compassion and walk away with saying I can't handle it.  It's helpful to tell myself again that my needs matter even if she's weeping.

And 15years - that sounds very familiar with the waif-witch balance.  I'm quite easily setting boundaries with the witch, crushed by the waif's pain, and then I'm right back at boundaries when the witch or queen reappears.  It's a strange dynamic.  Today has actually been the best day between us in maybe months.  So this is good for me to remember and not get sucked into illusions of real change - though I'm appreciating her explicit efforts to regulate today.

Grootyoda - I get questions like that too!  The most common is "what can I do for you today?"  And I never have a good answer because how can I say "I would like you to be consistent and regulated today and not yell at me?"  But this is just provoking to her, and it makes me feel like an out of touch jerk.

I also realized how much I've been feeding the cycle in these situations too.  I've set a boundary that we can't talk about our marriage or have a conflict around kids.  But if she starts asking questions, I will actually start a conversation in the living room about our marriage with the kids just upstairs.  It's self-sabotaging and anxiety-driven on my part. 
 

[Notwendy]

I also realized how much I've been feeding the cycle in these situations too.  I've set a boundary that we can't talk about our marriage or have a conflict around kids.  But if she starts asking questions, I will actually start a conversation in the living room about our marriage with the kids just upstairs.  It's self-sabotaging and anxiety-driven on my part.
 

Do they resolve anything? Or do they just lead to circular arguments? One thing to consider is that if you find yourself automatically getting into these discussions, it's your "drug"- to relieve the anxiety. It's good that you are aware of this feeling of anxiety.

One idea is that, if we are anxious, or tired, or emotional - we are not at our best and need a moment to gain composure. An answer such as " I am glad to answer your question but I don't feel up to a discussion now" - might not be what she wants to hear- but gives you the chance to step away and get yourself together. Or the boundary " I don't feel I can answer this with the kids in earshot". Expect a reaction but stand firm on this and soon it can be a boundary.

Her concern may be- can we ever discuss the marriage? I think there needs to be some way to have a discussion, but if these kinds of discussions just turn into circular arguments with nothing resolved, the skills to not JADE or respond emotionally might help. Avoid times when you are tired like at night.

[Cat Familiar]

I too, have fallen prey to the Waif. It not only happens with female pwBPDs but with male BPDs as well.

And in not supporting the demands of the Waif, I’ve been called selfish, self absorbed, thoughtless, unkind, etc.

At those times, I’ve engaged the *inner narcissist* and *the compassionate logician* parts of myself and had a conversation. Yes, I can be self absorbed at times. Who isn’t? But I’m not selfish, at least not more than the average person. And is it helpful to bend to demands? No, it sets a bad pattern of behavior on both sides. Far better to do kind acts when I actually feel motivated to do them, rather than on command.

I find these internal dialogs can be as helpful as therapy when entered into with time and full attention.

[grootyoda]

I am really feeling the stuff that is going on in this thread today. The last few days my pwBPD has been very vocal about feeling disconnected from me, that we never do anything together, and that it doesn’t feel like we’re “in love” right now.

In my mind, I do feel a lot of empathy about what she’s experiencing, because I do imagine that healthy autonomy on my part after years of codependency and emotional enmeshment feels deeply uncomfortable for her.

On my end, it feels like a huge breath of fresh air to not be engaged in all the emotional drama - today I had a moment of zen where I realized I was feeling happy doing more on my own out of the house and not having my mood mirror my partners all day long. I’ve had this deep recurring tightness in my chest all the time that has let up the last few days, and that too is very relieving.

So I find myself in a similar conundrum to the OP. How do I display empathy without tumbling back down the emotional rabbit hole with my pwBPD?

[Cat Familiar]

So I find myself in a similar conundrum to the OP. How do I display empathy without tumbling back down the emotional rabbit hole with my pwBPD?

What is empathy? From https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-empathy-2795562

Affective empathy involves the ability to understand another person's emotions and respond appropriately. Such emotional understanding may lead to someone feeling concerned for another person's well-being, or it may lead to feelings of personal distress.

Somatic empathy involves having a sort of physical reaction in response to what someone else is experiencing. People sometimes physically experience what another person is feeling. When you see someone else feeling embarrassed, for example, you might start to blush or have an upset stomach.

Cognitive empathy involves being able to understand another person's mental state and what they might be thinking in response to the situation. This is related to what psychologists refer to as theory of mind, or thinking about what other people are thinking.

I tend to have affective empathy and cognitive empathy. I’ve known highly sensitive people who have somatic empathy and life can truly be a rough ride for them.

How to not go down the rabbit hole? Focus on cognitive empathy. It may feel weird or disconnected at first to not allow yourself the emotional release of affective empathy, but look at the big picture.

If affective empathy leads you into sharing emotional dysregulation, is it truly helpful? There certainly will be times when affective empathy is appropriate, so use it then, such as when your partner cuts her finger or hits her head. But when she goes into a BPD black hole, steer clear!

[grootyoda]

It’s pretty wild that you bring that up. I was literally talking to someone else today about the differences between cognitive and affective empathy today and how affective seemed like something that puts a person at high risk of codependent behaviors. The consensus there seemed to be that cognitive empathy is the healthiest form, even in everyday relationships, because it keeps us in a place of understanding and responding rather than adopting others’ emotions as our own.

[Notwendy]

The last few days my pwBPD has been very vocal about feeling disconnected from me, that we never do anything together, and that it doesn’t feel like we’re “in love” right now.

One of my ideas about this is that- the emotional drama is a point of connection. When the two of you are engaged in drama- you are focused on each other. It's highly emotional. Dysfunctional relationship dynamics are how people relate to each other. Also the highs and lows of the drama are themselves an emotional rush.

Without this, relationships are calmer, and while you may be wanting the "calm" and enjoying not participating in the drama- this isn't what she is used to. It may take her some time to adjust. She's used to you responding to her by getting into the drama with her and now, something is different- a good difference to you. She may feel the change as a disconnect. But you are still there.