Christian Divorce and Shame with Cluster B

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have posted on here before after choosing a separation with my undiagnosed BPD wife. I chose to separate on advice from a counselor as a means to keep my wife in marriage/family counselling and therapy to deal with some of the frequent  (daily) blowups and heavy control tendencies she had with both me and the kids and the constant stepping over eggshells. I also got to a point of depression which is outside of my normal character (I am a very positive glad-full type of guy). I found myself disassociating (daydreaming) when she talks and berates me (I’m also diagnosed ADHD so daydreaming is very normal for me). I’m also super empathetic so even though I daydream I feel I am also a good listener and don’t get hurt and defensive if problems about me are addressed without abusive tones. I’m very secure with criticism unless it’s constant and berating- and then I deal with it through disassociating and very rarely blow up and exhibit usually a calm personality. I’m the guy in a crisis when everyone is freaking out to stay calm and try to troubleshoot calmly. My wife was the opposite, the tiniest problem would send her into super anxiety (even if the restaurant we chose and decided together on for a dare happened to be closed… she would go in anxiety and attack mode of why I didn’t look up to see if it was closed beforehand). But then again, she has hyper sensory issues so choosing a restaurant is a chore for her as her senses get overwhelmed with aesthetics, sound, and taste causing anger triggers. She always felt it was her need that I would understand and protect her sensory issues with absolute proactive intentionality and would feel unprotected and uncared for if I didn’t take every step to protect her from her own sensory overloads and start attacking and blaming me. It got to a point in the house where all our kids watch TV with Bluetooth earphones so she doesn’t get triggered from noise and have angry blowups and blame the blowup on us making noise. I wasn’t allowed to talk on the phone in the house at all even if it was super important phone calls and some days had to go outside to do the phone calls on a walk in the freezing cold. She would also blowup at me if I was hyper active and would pace while thinking because she could feel the “hyper vibes” and by pacing it made noise in the floors creaking.  All of us were super guarded to remember all her sensory overload triggers and felt like in a jail in our own home where she had to control the environment to be at peace. Sometime she would even blow up at me for breathing hard (I’m a bit overweight and had a deviated septum). She also said my hard breathing (which wasn’t super loud but she can hear the smallest things) sounded like having sex which triggered other memories. She also had this with aesthetics, even made me shave my beard a few times because it triggered memories of her past and creepy men in general.

After initiating a separation with requests for counselling to deal with some of the issues in the home in counselling, she basically wanted out. Seven months later she filed for a divorce I agreed to do amicably and now we are two
Months into it and in one more month it will be official. We did mediation and solved most of the requests amicably.

During the separation, I would describe our relationship as very volatile and she was very mean. Once so agreed to her request for a divorce, she has since made her stance firm she wants the divorce, but on the other hand is the friendliest I have ever seen her in 19 years of marriage.  She even politely asks me if we can continue a conversation later if she hears me breathing hard while on the phone, when she would go into attack mode before complaining that I need to sit down and not pace while talking to her on the phone that she can feel it through the phone. She also feels demons everywhere and falls into fear from that. I’m a minister and sometimes to to dark places to share the gospel, and everytime I do she claims it’s inviting attack on her and she gets oppressed demonically and feels it.  She has asked to do quit doing the thing I’ve been doing since so was five and I love simply because she says it attacks her spiritually while I am away.

What am I dealing with now?

1.) I’m dealing with my own codependency issues and am about to join CODA based on counselors advice who saw both of us. Also strengthening my sense of personal boundaries and self care that I rarely practiced. Also practicing self compassion and admission of areas like codependency where I hurt the marriage.
 

2.) Even though I didn’t initiate or want the divorce, I’m dealing with many in my Christian community shaming me for initiating a separation or deciding to amicably agree to her request for a divorce.

3.) I went through seven months processing my own grief and pain from the hurts experienced in the marriage and asking Jesus to be present with me while I allow myself to feel the pain and come to terms with 19 years of Hell.

4.) Grieving the good memories we had together and love and care I still feel for her and the loss of a marriage to someone I still love.

5.) Tryinr to understand and make sense of my wife being kinder and friendly to me after 19 years of her being hostile to me (besides on vacations where she allowed herself to be kinder and more relaxed). It’s almost like all the good things I saw in her and the good times are the majority of what’s present now after she decided we could friends after a divorce.

6.) Learning to Co-parent in a healthy way (we have joint equal custody).

7.) Spending lots of time with my kids and learning to practice kind words about their mother and respect towards her even though they experienced some of the same abuse I did with her.

There are still challenges…

Should I stay in ministry after this?
How do I honor my wife’s relationship with God after she decided to divorce me and be so mean (not only to me, the kids, and even her friends), she seems so strong in her faith and relationship with God but I am often confused how it rarely translates to the fruits of the Spirit- especially inner peace,  joy, patience, kindness, and gentleness. I admit one of the things I did wrong in the relationship is ask her why her relationship with God didn’t show up in these areas. I usually did it kindly and was confused myself, but I realize now I employed some form of spiritual abuse by doing it. I’m still confused by it though, oftentimes, I look at her in Deep empathy and feel , How come she rarely has inner peace and always seems to struggle? Does she ever experience any joy? It even seems the mundane easy low stress tasks of life stress her out. Now I’m asking how does a Christian with BPD view Galatians 5 fruits? Is that a daunting condemning verse for them?

Thanks for listening

[JewishHeart]

I have posted on here before after choosing a separation with my undiagnosed BPD wife. I chose to separate on advice from a counselor as a means to keep my wife in marriage/family counselling and therapy to deal with some of the frequent  (daily) blowups and heavy control tendencies she had with both me and the kids and the constant stepping over eggshells. I also got to a point of depression which is outside of my normal character (I am a very positive glad-full type of guy). I found myself disassociating (daydreaming) when she talks and berates me (I’m also diagnosed ADHD so daydreaming is very normal for me). I’m also super empathetic so even though I daydream I feel I am also a good listener and don’t get hurt and defensive if problems about me are addressed without abusive tones. I’m very secure with criticism unless it’s constant and berating- and then I deal with it through disassociating and very rarely blow up and exhibit usually a calm personality. I’m the guy in a crisis when everyone is freaking out to stay calm and try to troubleshoot calmly. My wife was the opposite, the tiniest problem would send her into super anxiety (even if the restaurant we chose and decided together on for a dare happened to be closed… she would go in anxiety and attack mode of why I didn’t look up to see if it was closed beforehand). But then again, she has hyper sensory issues so choosing a restaurant is a chore for her as her senses get overwhelmed with aesthetics, sound, and taste causing anger triggers. She always felt it was her need that I would understand and protect her sensory issues with absolute proactive intentionality and would feel unprotected and uncared for if I didn’t take every step to protect her from her own sensory overloads and start attacking and blaming me. It got to a point in the house where all our kids watch TV with Bluetooth earphones so she doesn’t get triggered from noise and have angry blowups and blame the blowup on us making noise. I wasn’t allowed to talk on the phone in the house at all even if it was super important phone calls and some days had to go outside to do the phone calls on a walk in the freezing cold. She would also blowup at me if I was hyper active and would pace while thinking because she could feel the “hyper vibes” and by pacing it made noise in the floors creaking.  All of us were super guarded to remember all her sensory overload triggers and felt like in a jail in our own home where she had to control the environment to be at peace. Sometime she would even blow up at me for breathing hard (I’m a bit overweight and had a deviated septum). She also said my hard breathing (which wasn’t super loud but she can hear the smallest things) sounded like having sex which triggered other memories. She also had this with aesthetics, even made me shave my beard a few times because it triggered memories of her past and creepy men in general.

After initiating a separation with requests for counselling to deal with some of the issues in the home in counselling, she basically wanted out. Seven months later she filed for a divorce I agreed to do amicably and now we are two
Months into it and in one more month it will be official. We did mediation and solved most of the requests amicably.

During the separation, I would describe our relationship as very volatile and she was very mean. Once so agreed to her request for a divorce, she has since made her stance firm she wants the divorce, but on the other hand is the friendliest I have ever seen her in 19 years of marriage.  She even politely asks me if we can continue a conversation later if she hears me breathing hard while on the phone, when she would go into attack mode before complaining that I need to sit down and not pace while talking to her on the phone that she can feel it through the phone. She also feels demons everywhere and falls into fear from that. I’m a minister and sometimes to to dark places to share the gospel, and everytime I do she claims it’s inviting attack on her and she gets oppressed demonically and feels it.  She has asked to do quit doing the thing I’ve been doing since so was five and I love simply because she says it attacks her spiritually while I am away.

What am I dealing with now?

1.) I’m dealing with my own codependency issues and am about to join CODA based on counselors advice who saw both of us. Also strengthening my sense of personal boundaries and self care that I rarely practiced. Also practicing self compassion and admission of areas like codependency where I hurt the marriage.
 

2.) Even though I didn’t initiate or want the divorce, I’m dealing with many in my Christian community shaming me for initiating a separation or deciding to amicably agree to her request for a divorce.

3.) I went through seven months processing my own grief and pain from the hurts experienced in the marriage and asking Jesus to be present with me while I allow myself to feel the pain and come to terms with 19 years of Hell.

4.) Grieving the good memories we had together and love and care I still feel for her and the loss of a marriage to someone I still love.

5.) Tryinr to understand and make sense of my wife being kinder and friendly to me after 19 years of her being hostile to me (besides on vacations where she allowed herself to be kinder and more relaxed). It’s almost like all the good things I saw in her and the good times are the majority of what’s present now after she decided we could friends after a divorce.

6.) Learning to Co-parent in a healthy way (we have joint equal custody).

7.) Spending lots of time with my kids and learning to practice kind words about their mother and respect towards her even though they experienced some of the same abuse I did with her.

There are still challenges…

Should I stay in ministry after this?
How do I honor my wife’s relationship with God after she decided to divorce me and be so mean (not only to me, the kids, and even her friends), she seems so strong in her faith and relationship with God but I am often confused how it rarely translates to the fruits of the Spirit- especially inner peace,  joy, patience, kindness, and gentleness. I admit one of the things I did wrong in the relationship is ask her why her relationship with God didn’t show up in these areas. I usually did it kindly and was confused myself, but I realize now I employed some form of spiritual abuse by doing it. I’m still confused by it though, oftentimes, I look at her in Deep empathy and feel , How come she rarely has inner peace and always seems to struggle? Does she ever experience any joy? It even seems the mundane easy low stress tasks of life stress her out. Now I’m asking how does a Christian with BPD view Galatians 5 fruits? Is that a daunting condemning verse for them?

Thanks for listening

[SinisterComplex]

Hey JH, I am just chiming in to let you know we are listening and paying attention. I have tagged a team member of mine. I am pretty sure he will check in on you at some point and be a phenomenal resource for you.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[formflier]

Hey...I'm fairly conservative Christian (southern Baptist variety)...so I'm always up for discussing Scripture and BPD.

I'm so sorry you are going through this and also understand how hard it must be for some in your community to respond badly.

Are you asking how to respond to people that shame or shun you?

Can you tell me more about what "honoring your wife's relationshp with God"?

What would that look like before the marriage issues?

Best,

FF

[JewishHeart]

FF,

Thank you for responding.

Yes that’s one of my questions, probably the main one.

Before the marriage issues, several years into our marriage I would go out with my male friends and in heart to hearts would share some of what I am experiencing in the home. I know every marriage has its issues and I feel about myself that I am a pretty resilient and patient person. They would respond to me, “that’s not normal” thinking they were normal marriage problems. About ten years ago I was on the phone with a ministry friend of mine and he heard my wife berating and yelling at me on the phone background noise (my wife doesn’t let me talk on the phone in the house due to her noise sensory issues and blames me for her rage blow ups because I didn’t care enough about her to honor her boundary knowing noise triggers her). He went to one of my spiritual fathers who didn’t know this was going on. In turn my spiritual father asked me to take a break in ministry and told my wife she needs help and even questioned her salvation because Christian’s aren’t rageful and there is no “fruit of the Spirit” if we are supposed to judge people by their fruits. It hurt both of us and we left that ministry and decided to get help. She was suicidal at the time, so a good point in this is she decided to get diagnosed with depression (she has been suicidal since she was a teen). She never was suicidal again after that and took her meds daily (still does) , but the other crazy making issues continued. She left marriage counseling again. That was nine years ago. Anyways, oftentimes I felt I was carrying this stuff alone and cried out for help and advice from friends or people I saw had good marriages for advice. This hurt my wife deeply when she found out because she felt I “exposed” her and felt these particular people start distancing from her.

Sometimes now that the divorce is going on, I am tempted to tel the stories to justify why I chose a separation with the advice of counselors who were seeing us both. My wife has told many people I abandoned her (even though I paid all her bills, took care of the kids, shared responsibilities with the kids, and my special needs kid lives with me giving her a break from the harder responsibilities). When I told her my decision to separate she didn’t take it well and felt abandoned “in a foreign country”. We live in America, I am American, and she is a foreigner on a green card). I never once abandoned one responsibility and she lives better than I do during the separation. At first I lived ina friends camper without water , and she took that as a deep hurt in that I chose to live without running water rather than living with her.

Anyways, I’m trying to honor her by not sharing everything that happened in the relationship to justify the fact that I didn’t abandon her which is an accusation out there. However, I found myself oftentimes doing just that and feel horrible afterwards about it, because it usually leads to her being isolated and people angry at her and I don’t want that either. Since she decided on the divorce, the community is now frustrated with her, knowing I don’t want the divorce, I just wanted us to stay in marriage counseling and get help (she kept dropping out, I was using separation as a boundary tool to keep her in it). She did try one more time, but when the licensed psychological counselor started asking questions in a very validating way about her mental health , she dropped out again and filed for divorce.

So yes, how should I respond informationally to people (and supporters of our ministry) who ask questions about why I chose separation?

I also have a business I can do, but went into full time because of the amount of new church plants I oversee around the world and they asked me for my time sake to spend less time in business. I’m thinking about getting back to tent making again. 

[formflier]

So yes, how should I respond informationally to people (and supporters of our ministry) who ask questions about why I chose separation?

So...back in the day, my wife and I did a "therapeutic separation".  We lived apart for a few months while attending marriage counseling and also seeing a psychologist (phd type) for individual work and perhaps work more focused on "family", vice marriage.

I'm so thankful that our church rallied around us and were very encouraging.  We still attended together as a family, just slept in separate places and had limited contact outside of church/counseling. 

Anyway...I can't imagine what my life would be like and how it would have affected our chances at relationship success...had we not had a supportive church family.

So...hope it's ok to ask some more questions.  What is the ratio of people that appear to be generally supportive, vice people that want to let you know that "you are on the wrong path"...or perhaps "shun" you?

I will certainly tweak my advice based on your answers, yet a solid answer is "as little as possible".  I've generally found that people that are not familiar with BPD, simply will never "get it" or "can't imagine" the relationship chaos involved.  I would encourage you to come up with answers inviting them to pray for you and your wisdom...without revealing details.

For your healing (your wife may chose not to heal..be prepared for that)...you will need a group of people that you don't talk about BPD to.  That the conversations are "normal".  I'm not suggesting relationship issues are "hidden", but they are things mentioned in passing..no long detailed conversations.


Think about a three legged stool.  With all three legs in place there is stability.  Remove one leg and disaster.

Leg 1.  Professional counselors for in person therapy.

Leg 2.  BPD family and perhaps one or two "in real life people" that understand the crazy of BPD and you can vent...you can discuss what you are learning in T...you can trust.  Note:  Don't try to force people into this category outside BPDfamily.  This is something that will become obvious over time.   Part of your goal here is to limit the amount of time you spend focused/thinking about/talking about BPD.  (remember..it's not a problem to be solved)


Leg 3.  Normal life people (this should be vast majority of your "in real life relationships").  No details here about BPD...rarely mention it. 



Let me hush for a bit while leaving you with one final question.  How would you explain to people someone you are close to exercising "free will" about another major issue...or perhaps rejecting the identity of Christ?  I would be interested in reading your thoughts on this...


Best,

FF

[JewishHeart]

FF,

I would say the majority of people who know me are very supportive, my wife lost more support since she is the one who chose the divorce. However, the people criticizing me are people like the leader of my supporting missions organization who asked me to leave it because of the divorce suggesting that by separating I “got the ball rolling”. He also felt like I listened to
Bad advice from therapists abs marriage counselors seeing us who suggested a separation, and one who suggested to me my wife may have a mental illness recommending books to read without telling my wife she may have a mental illness (my ministry leader said this was unprofessional). To be fair to him he wanted to gain my wife’s trust before telling her what he suspects and wanted me to have tools and understanding of what may be going on. He was also a clinical psychologist.
I feel when people came with accusations I did share too much to defend myself to some people and my ministry leader also called me on the carpet for that. The ministry leader feels my wife is hurting and needs compassion. I told him I practiced that 19 years and it didn’t lead to anything and now I am learning to break free from codependency. He ended with telling me Jesus was a codependent. I also made the mistake of telling my 18 year old daughter who was estranged from her mom that her mom may have a mental illness and gave her books to read and videos to watch. That wasn’t my place, but I was trying to help her make sense of what both of us experienced in the house for years. It actually led her to compassion for her mom and ultimately reconciliation.  Since both of us were gaslit all the time where my wife would blow up abs then deny she did any of it, my daughter and I would bounce back and forth things like “did that happen or am I exaggerating or misunderstand it?” I found out later she didn’t really gaslight intentionally, she really did forget what she said (BPD amnesia?). My ministry leaders are demonizing me for doing this with my daughter for years to keep us both sane. It was wrong of me, it did help us not feel crazy though like we imagined things. Because ai did this my ministry leader accused me of alienating my daughter from her mom which led ultimately to a four month estrangement . My wife also claims that although my daughter says that she did it by herself and while I talked to her and my daughter feels us bounding stuff off each other in the end was inappropriate, the behaviour is what led to estrangement, not us talking about it. I’ve gotten better and put boundaries on talking to my daughter even when we both observe issues or blow ups while in the same room with her. Both of us experienced trying to talk to her about it kindly, being met with defensiveness, resistance, and many times denial it happened. This is why we turned to each other to talk about it. I realize now that was unhealthy. So I do get criticised for this as if I did something majorly wrong and like miy ministry leader said “you are the bad guy!” I’m
Having to be kicked out of the organisation now. Again they know my wife has anger issues (what they call it) , but said I lost compassion for her traumatic past  recently and that makes me the bad guy. That I should see her just as a wounded saint and take the abuse and not let it “get to me” while loving her as Christ loved the church, even to the point where he was abused. They literally said to me (I screenshoter the test)… Jesus was a codependent- trying to convince me that my 19 years of codependent behaviour was a godly attribute that I am not losing.

I don’t know if that answers your question.
I do also have many many many people supporting me in my healing journey.
Her behaviors weren’t hidden and many people saw the abuse and came up to me afterwards and said “you were so patient staying 19 years when she constantly berated you even in public”

One more thing on my mind…

One of the things that I feel angry at my wife about is her demand I hold grudges together with her at the people she holds grudges against. She would get hurt by somebody on something small and sometimes misunderstandings, not even tru to reconcile that it could possibly be w misunderstanding, and jump to conclusions they are bad people (many times she would even use the Phrase demonic). She would always get upset at me that I didn’t stand with her in uniity by shunning people she had grudges against. Ten years ago I stood my ground in staying friends with someone she felt hurt her, and it almost led to divorce. She would check my phone obsessively if I called this friend and then tell me I was opening up the door to demons in our house by calling him. All he did was confront her that she was being unkind when she berated me publicly once, the grudge lasts until this day. She also got hurt by a small statement joke my mom made 19 years ago and is still holding that grudge and is upset at me that I don’t want to listen to her when she goes on a tirade about how bad my mom is and even tells the kids. She thinks I am naive and would get so frustrated at me that I don’t see how bad people are (my mom included) like she does. I am quick to forgive and she saw that as a weakness and felt “unprotected” by me because I didn’t want to see the bad in every other person. She also constantly stated” we are not in unity” as if it were a bad thing for our marriage  I disagreed with her about a grudge she feels I need to hold. If she felt like I didn’t hold it with her she would move on to “this person has demons and by talking with them you are inciting attention ask on your family” claiming she felt unprotected by me if I talked with someone she felt hurt from abs didn’t cut them off from relationship. Sometimes the relationships I lost because of this dynamic make
Me angry at her. I never ended some of these  relationships in a bad way, just slowly stopped talking to some friends. I lost some good friends. She felt that supporting each other in a marriage is being offended at the same people with each other and standing up for her when someone made an offense against her. I don’t have a problem protecting her, but more times than not her offenses were either small or
Misunderstandings. I would approach these people to say there was a misunderstanding so they could apologize to my wife and things could be better and they would, my wife said she forgave, but continued indefinitely keeping the grudges and asking me to cut people off even after they genuinely sincerely apologized for small offenses. I try to make sense of that often.

I didn’t quite understand your last question.

[formflier]

  How would you explain to people someone you are close to exercising "free will" about another major issue...or perhaps rejecting the identity of Christ? 

Is this the question you didn't understand?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

OK...I've helped many other posters with similar stories untangle similar stories.  In many of these things the details matter/understanding correctly matters.

So...lots of follow up questions/clarifying questions.

Starting with...are you still in the same "organization" or not?  Is that a church? 

  However, the people criticizing me are people like the leader of my supporting missions organization who asked me to leave it because of the divorce suggesting that by separating I “got the ball rolling”.

So...he is holding you responsible for her decisions? 

How many people are criticizing you  3?  5?  15?

Probably a good place to define the number of those supporting you?  Interested in the numbers.

He also felt like I listened to
Bad advice from therapists abs marriage counselors seeing us who suggested a separation, and one who suggested to me my wife may have a mental illness recommending books to read without telling my wife she may have a mental illness (my ministry leader said this was unprofessional).

Did he hear the advice you were given? 

Did you try to relate to him the professional advice other therapists gave you?

Did he follow up with them to make sure his understanding of their advice was correct?

Did you ministry guy share with you the professional standards (so you could read them yourself) that he is suggesting these other people ignored or how he came to his "unprofessional" judgment?

To be fair to him he wanted to gain my wife’s trust before telling her what he suspects and wanted me to have tools and understanding of what may be going on. He was also a clinical psychologist.

So can you share this guys job title? 

Does this guy have a PhD in psychology?  Does he have an active license to practice in your state.

Is this guy a (or perhaps the) "senior pastor"?

Who is this guys boss?  Who is he accountable to (in an earthly sense)?

I feel when people came with accusations I did share too much to defend myself to some people and my ministry leader also called me on the carpet for that.

Can you share some he said she said about how this conversation went?  So...what did he suggest you should actually have said in response?  Did you role play that any (practice)?

He ended with telling me Jesus was a codependent.

Interesting.  I've never heard this suggested before.  How did he explain the scriptural basis for this judgment?

Did he have any "non scriptural" explanation for this judgment?

I have to say...this has my curiosity stirred up.

   My ministry leaders are demonizing me for doing this with my daughter for years to keep us both sane.

Can you share some he said she said of what "demonizing" actually looked/sounded like?


 

So I do get criticised for this as if I did something majorly wrong and like miy ministry leader said “you are the bad guy!”

Can you give some he said she said of what was going on before he said "you are the bad guy"?

I’m
Having to be kicked out of the organisation now.

Is this "biblical discipline" or perhaps "church discipline"?  What is the scriptural basis for kicking you out?

  They literally said to me (I screenshoter the test)… Jesus was a codependent- 

So...how much of the communication was "in person", versus text/email/letters? 


For the in person part was this over breakfast, in a pastors office (basically please describe the setting)

 

I do also have many many many people supporting me in my healing journey.

This is great.  Can you help define with numbers how many supporters vice "non -supporters" there are?

Please don't read any of this as criticism or judgment, it's important to get details right.

Best,

FF

[JewishHeart]

To clarify, I am a missionary and the ministry leader is the leader of a small independent missions organization. I moved back to the States four years ago but still work with teams I have established around the world through zoom coaching calls. I raise my personal support and ministry support through his umbrella organization. They are in a different state than I am. My wife is from the nation where we were missionaries.

The amount of people criticizing me now are probably around 3-5, there were more until some approached me and I clarified (probably with too much information).

The number of people supporting me in my healing journey are all the teams both of us worked with, most of whom saw the abuse towards me (berating, etc) and also experienced her blow ups at them too. I work with about seven church planting teams on a very deep relational level that number around 30 people (they oversee thousands of house churches in various different nations, and I have a mentorship relationship with them, at one point both my wife and I did but given her bossy personality type they weren’t as close to her). Some of my team leaders were very concerned about what they saw in our home and feel like God is delivering me (I don’t necessarily agree with them).

I would say outside of my team relationships, I have a support network of mentors and pastor leaders who I also have accountability and deep relationship with that all support me and are praying, I didn’t have as close of a relationship with the leader of our missions organisation, although they are my wife’s spiritual parents which is why I joined the organization…. Although over the years these leaders (even with my wife) only saw us probably a dozen times because we didn’t live where they live but they would come and visit once a year for a week or so. They were not my accountability outside of financial reporting and our relationship was more of a working one. I did confide in them sometimes about what was going on in the home (they even saw it sometimes when they visited) but never gave advice or suggested or even offered support to help our marriage. My mentors and pastors constantly tried to help give advice and were very concerned about our marriage.

He (the missions org leader) is holding me responsible for my decision to chose and stick with a separation based on advice from marriage counselors and my mentors/pastors/accountability group. He told me I was listening to other people and not my heart or the scriptures (he fees separation is unbiblical). He feels I got the ball rolling towards divorce by leaving the house in a separation and making demands for change (that included staying in marriage counseling and stopping the berating and control) in order to come back into the house. She would always drop out, the marriage counselor we had two years ago told me to consider a separation to keep her in marriage counseling. She dropped out in the end, and demanded I do to (saying that counselor was unprofessional , but every counselor has been unprofessional in her view in 19 years of marriage). I prayed and fasted about this counselors advice and talked about it with my pastor mentors and accountability group and after seven months of prayer decided to pull the trigger and tell my wife I’m separating especially as things escalated in her control and berating. I told her I’m coming back into the house when we go and stay in counseling and when the control and berating stop.

We tried marriage counseling one more time with a person who runs a counseling service for all the churches in our city. All the churches use this counseling service as it’s a parachurch ministry. We went to the guy who runs it who was a pastor and now runs this, is a licensed clinical psychologist and licensed therapist and runs the whole center with many counselors.

He met with my wife two months during the separation before meeting me.
He is the one who told me my wife has some undiagnosed mental issues. He felt like he didn’t have her trust and she was probably going to drop out again. This was all told to me in my first personal meeting with him. He said it with lots of compassion though. He also said although they fight for marriages, I might want to prepare for divorce short of a miracle  because that is where she is at. He recommended I understand about mental illnesses. He also said it really can’t go further until she is willing to get help and cooperate and trust a counsellor and get the help she needs for the mental illness which it didn’t seem like she was willing. This was just his observation with meeting with her two months without ever hearing one story from me. The next meeting joint meeting with both of us he encouraged my wife and I to have an extended separation with only business like contact about kids and mediation through the counselling. My wife then decided she preferred divorce to an extended separation, while I wanted to go along with counsellors advice (the story of our entire 19 year counselling attempts). She dropped out and claimed he too was unprofessional (also the story of our attempts).

The leader of our missionary org agrees with my wife that how he went about it was unprofessional and that this counselling advice is causing the divorce and me going along with it made me the bad guy rather than doing things the biblical way of moving back in and just taking the abuse in the name of Christian patience and love.

He got advice from a professional counselor friend of his that told him that the counsellor telling me my wife probably has an undiagnosed mental illness while waiting to tell her or not telling her the same thing first was unethical of him. He used that as a spring board to say I’m listening to bad advice and causing the divorce.

This was over text and phone calls. He lives in a far away state so there were no personal meetings.
In the end they even felt the need to contact a supporter and let them know of my impending divorce and bad behavior by choosing a separation and then an extended separation (based off the advice of counselors… I submit myself to professionals, I have no clue how to be a husband of someone who displays crazy making traits, I need help).

When I separated my pastors and mentors did tell me “you need to remove the cushion of normalcy so the pain of change is easier than the pain of normal”. That’s what made me decide that what they were saying was right and I needed to separate to help my wife realize she needs to get help for her wild behaviors. I removed myself as her cushion to try to get the ball rolling for change, in the end she felt abandoned and decided to divorce. I also started working on myself (the only person I can really change is me).

I do role play conversations sometimes.

As far as what I would share I told him the crazy making in the home and stories that were bizarre in 19 years of marriage and then followed it up with the counsellors suggestion she probably has a mental illness. I did this to defend my stance I needed to separate to heal myself from the wounds, heal from codependency, and place strong boundaries and expectations that things can go back to the way they were in order for me to come home. She was refusing help to change patterns of behavior or any responsibility, so I will make it uncomfortable for her until she does by leaving the house. I also needed to leave to heal outside of the daily eggshell dance and being constantly in drama she creates. Everything triggered her and even me breathing triggered her, so I needed a place where I can be me without worrying that everything I do that I can’t change (like breathing, speaking too loud, pacing and creaking the floor) causes a blow up. Heck once I answered a life insurance call to make sure she is taken care of in the house when her noise sensory issues created a rule of no phone calls in the house, and she berated me that I don’t care raging because I answered a call I needed to do to help her! I. Other words, I was feeling I lost myself and couldn’t even be me anymore. Even my happiness offended her! I needed to get out to heal and am unapologetic about that. He wants me to be apologetic about it.

His scriptural backing for this is that I am supposed to love my wife like Jesus loved the church. Jesus allowed himself to be abused out of love and only show love in return to abuse. That’s what I did for 19 years and now by saying no and leaving the house I don’t have the love that’s willing to be put on the cross that Jesus had.

[formflier]

I think I have a better grasp of your situation.

I'm a little short on time at the moment, should be back later for a longer reply.

His scriptural backing for this is that I am supposed to love my wife like Jesus loved the church. 

Did you guys read this scripture together?  Can you share the scriptures with us?  How many different translations did you read through in this process?  Can you share which translations?

Best,

FF

[JewishHeart]

No, he just threw it at me in an accusatory text.

[formflier]

No, he just threw it at me in an accusatory text.

Do you believe that such a scripture exists?

(It's ok with me to believe either way)

To be frank, I'm not so much interested in exactly which scripture you pick or don't pick to support this.  I am much more interested in the hermeneutics behind how you understand that scripture.
 
Best,

FF

[JewishHeart]

FF,

He was quoting Ephesians 5:25

“ Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her”

The conversation wasn’t exegetical in nature, but rather a text trying to call me on the carpet in a short response using scripture as ammo to say I wasn’t obeying this scripture.

My guess is he was suggesting that by initiating a separation from my wife, I didn’t exhibit the godly behavior a husband should exhibit towards his wife as the example of what Jesus did for the church. I actually love hermeneutics, but my conversations with him don’t usually involve that style of discussion.

I did try to employ the book of Hosea, Proverbs 21;9, Proverb's 21:19, and even 1 Corinthians 7 as biblical justification for my separation as was given to me by our Christian licensed counselor.  I also sent him a Jimmy Evan’s video talking about a healing separation.

This was argued to me back that it’s not in the nature of Christ to leave us when we wrong Him, and that’s what we are to exhibit to our wives. That was followed up with me telling him I am learning boundaries as a recovering codependent. Which he followed up with the idea that codependency (being patient in trial and putting up with bad behavior in patience) is a Godly trait and Jesus was a codependent. All of this of course is in the context that I didn’t want a divorce, just to separate to get my wife to deal with her stuff (which later turned out to be an undiagnosed mental disorder I was trying to codependently manage all these years with fuzzy boundaries in the name of godliness).

[JewishHeart]

One more thing…

It took me many months to come to terms with our first counselors encouragement to me to consider a separation.as a means to put boundaries on my wife’s behavior and keep her in counseling. This counselor actually presented me with a hermeneutic of 1 Corinthians 7 to explain it was biblical. At the time I didn’t believe it was. My wife dropped out of that counseling and demanded I would to (we were seeing her separately and she also interviewed our kids). After stopping that counseling, her hermaneutic of separation being a biblical means of responding to abuse stayed in my head and prayers to consider and meditate on, especially as the bizarre and abusive behaviours continued with no help. I knew I was dying inside and also that our family wasn’t living as an expression of Gods intention for family to glorify Him. My deepest desire was to live in such a way that honored God by how I treat my wife and kids, even above ministry objectives. The most validating thing I desired my entire life was for my kids to say I am the same person at home as I am when I minister and a good father and husband who honors God by how I treat my family. This is why separation was off the books for me even when our counseled suggested it with a Good exegesis to relieve my concern of dishonoring God.

It actually took another counselor and my mentor many months later telling me that that lady was correct and it seems to be the only way to get my house in order and my wife into therapy. Also given how her behaviours were affecting our kids as well (she would discipline them based off her insecurities often and screaming at them for no or minute reasons was the norm).

I knew when I took these godly counselors and mentors advice that it would also mean fallout from possibly ministry leaders (like my missions overseer) who is clueless on psychology and mental health and wants to put everything neat in a ministry box. I also knew there would be fallout possibly from donors to our ministry. However, the hope of having and setting the stage possibly for a better marriage was more important to me than the fallout. I knew things couldn’t stay the same or we would crash in burn sometime in the future because the way we were living in constant drama wasn’t sustainable to a godly marriage or life in ministry. It also wasn’t sustainable to my own mental health to constantly try to manage crazy making. I had become a shell of myself after 19 years. I didn’t want it to end in divorce, I just wanted our marriage to be in the pathway of recovery, and employing separation after meditating on it a year looked like the only viable option left.

Unfortunately, it did lead to a fallout from my ministry leaders and it also led to my wife divorcing me.

[JewishHeart]

I think the biggest factor was also I became very depressed.
This was caused by a feeling of hopelessness and being voiceless. My wife created a culture where I listened calmly and attentively to her desire for me to change, and I tried hard to employ those requests in a spirit of love and understanding.

However, my requests and even expressions I was hurt were always met with defensiveness, anger, and drama. I am a gentle person by nature, most of the time, with a few exceptions in 19 years when I did yell, it was expressed gently. I felt that I couldn’t express any boundaries, hurts, or requests for change. I felt voiceless and shut down.

I often told my wife ,” I am jealous of you that you can speak to me so freely your grievances and that I respond with care and attempts to change, and when I share with you I am met with so much drama and a clear message my voice isn’t important. I am jealous that you can speak so freely and I am not allowed to.”

Her complaints were daily and hourly, my complaints were once in a blue moon even though they existed in my heart. It wasn’t because I don’t have the ability to be vulnerable and express my complaints, it was just she created an environment that there was Hell to pay for me expressing a complaint. While she was a constant complaint machine with expectations I could never live up to (do not breathe loud, stop pacing, why didn’t you hug me first thing when you came in the door, etc expressed in anger).

It ended up causing me to disassociate in depression with a feeling of voiceless and muzzled.

[Turkish]

He ended with telling me Jesus was a codependent.

Give me a break! Co-dependency is tossed around here by members a little too much. True, clinical, codependency is also a mental illness. So Jesus was mentally ill? Codependency at its core is ultimately self-centered.

As my Christian therapist (a PsyD, outside of the church) used to say, "you have to take a lot of my profession with a grain of salt..." Yet the pastor at my former church rejected the entire profession, because that's what the movement said.

I wouldn't take the opinion of whoever said that seriously in the least.

[SinisterComplex]

Give me a break! Co-dependency is tossed around here by members a little too much. True, clinical, codependency is also a mental illness. So Jesus was mentally ill? Codependency at its core is ultimately self-centered.

As my Christian therapist (a PsyD, outside of the church) used to say, "you have to take a lot of my profession with a grain of salt..." Yet the pastor at my former church rejected the entire profession, because that's what the movement said.

I wouldn't take the opinion of whoever said that seriously in the least.

I am going to have to side with one of my partners in crime here on this one. So since this is a more religious based thread I'll tone myself down a bit out of respect...So what in tarnation was that person talking about? Jesus a co-dependent? I have heard a lot of dumb stuff in my time, but wow that might be one of the more idiotic and comical things I think I have ever heard. Just WOW. That takes a special kind of stupid along the lines of...Well you just can't fix stupid!

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[formflier]

This was argued to me back that it’s not in the nature of Christ to leave us when we wrong Him, and that’s what we are to exhibit to our wives. 

So...let's play this thought out.

I'm agreeing with the premise "for the sake of the discussion" to see where it goes.

Christ won't leave us when we wrong him.

I can't imagine any more wrong than denying Christ's divinity and that he is THE ONLY pathway to heaven.

However, according to this guy Christ won't leave you...and I have to assume that means "in all cases"...so we can safely assume Christ won't leave you in hell.

So all you sinners and denying types:  There are actually two ways to heaven.

1.  Ask Jesus into your life and acknowledge he is Lord of your life and your salvation.

and also

2.  The knowledge that "jesus will never leave you" so even if you curse and spit on God all your life...well..you get saved.

Oh...and the good news is...Hell is empty, because Jesus never "left" anyone.

Uggg...

I tend to be a "literalist" for interpreting scripture.  It says what it says.  If you are going to chose another meaning rather than the "plain reading meaning", then you better have a consistent...well thought through reason to do so.

Clarity:  I think a  more accurate Biblical view is that "Jesus will respect your choices".  He will laugh and celebrate and shout with joy when people choose him and weep over those on a different path.

And yes I can see him praying "God if there is a way to lift this judgment off of this person that has denied me his entire life..please let it be so"...

That's very different from claiming "Jesus will NEVER LEAVE YOU"

Ugg...

OK...rant over.  Will try to come back later with a more measured response.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Well you just can't fix stupid!

Props to SinisterComplex for summing it up in a very succinct way.  Which is way better than me droning on in paragraph after paragraph of refuting what this guy is claiming.

JewishHeart, I would hope you would spend some time with what all of us have said about this guys judgments about your situation.  This is ultimately about what you believe and your relationship with Christ.

I should be more interested in the scriptures "pricking your heart" and "leading you" than the utterances of someone else.


I would encourage you to decide how you feel/what you think about what this "leader" has said and then move on with your life.  I hope we all agree there are more valuable places to spend your precious time.

Is there any doubt what the consensus view of this guy judgments is?



Best,

FF

[formflier]

Proverbs 4:23
New International Version
23 Above all else, guard your heart,
    for everything you do flows from it.

Do you believe this scripture and do you also believe it has been accurately translated, so that a "plain reading" of it is an accurate reading that you can apply to decisions in your life?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think you will get something out of the recommended 12 step co-dependency work. While this can be adapted to any belief system, the original authors of the AA Blue Book were Christians and so it is not out of line with what you believe. Once you understand what is involved in co-dependency, I think it will be clear to you that this minister's idea of co-dependency was not accurate.

[JewishHeart]

I actually receive completely what all of you are saying.
It’s part of the work I am doing is validating my own heart as God created. We are called to circumcise our hearts, but not ignore them. I love that verse from Proverbs.

There is the emotional sense as a recovering codependent I deal with in letting his judgements on me being shame, I am fighting this with knowing what God thinks about me and what I think about myself and what’s my heart saying and stick with that.

However, there is the practical side in that he is probably going to write a letter of rebuke about me, he has already contacted donors (I changed missions organization and am informing donors on this), and it’s just plain frustrating that their misconceptions about the situation are being spread to other people that affect me (and even my wife who I will pay child support to) practically.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi JewishHeart,

One of the most difficult things for me when I was separated and considering D after 35 years of marriage was the question: what will people think and say, especially other Christians in my church? I expected condemnation. When you're in a conservative church, you pretty much know what to expect.

My T had good advice that he repeated over and over. He would ask me what the Lord had to say, not what other people had to say. There are many well meaning people and some not so well meaning people who wish to define our lives and the direction we're to go according to what they believe or think. Perhaps they haven't walked in the shoes of someone married to a pw a mental disorder. Listen to the Lord and seek his heart. He is for the oppressed,  not for those who judge others. He trusted his heart to no one for he knew the heart of man. (John 2: 23-25) There will be many voices out there telling you what you should and shouldn't do. Only listen to the voice of the Lord. He can use others to speak to us, but he doesn't do it through judgement and shame. Those are not a part of His heart and who He is.

Wools

[formflier]

  I love that verse from Proverbs.

Yes...me to.  I'm a retired Naval Aviator (pilot)  and I often chuckle to myself and call this the "safety brief" verse of the Bible.  Think about the stewardess telling you to "put on your own O2 mask first".

Part of the reason I mentioned earlier that I trend towards "literal interpretation" is this verse.  "above all else". 

With great frustration I have listened to fellow "conservatives" suggest that husbands should just "take it" and let God protect them or let God be the one to "judge" a situation.


Well...as I read proverbs it seems to me that God is "tasking" all of us to take an active roll in "protecting our heart" so that all of the good things that should come from that heart...can come from it.

God also helps us "rank our priorities".  Above all else...

Anyway...I hope this discussion has helped you put how you think about some of your "accusers" in a more helpful perspective.

Best,

FF

[JewishHeart]

FF,

That was really helpful and good!

Thank you!

[Gravity Man]

Jewish Heart and FF, are you still tracking this thread?

I am new to the forum, having just registered, but I have been reading for a few years now.  I think I might have some relevant things to say that could be helpful based upon my own experiences.

Let me know.

[formflier]

I'm glad you took the step to post.

I would encourage you to start an entirely new thread and tell us more about your situation.

Best,

FF

[Gravity Man]

FF, I am going to have to ease myself into this, but let me start with this article.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2017/august-web-only/marriage-and-mental-illness.html

I can very well relate to the woman in this article.  Her story is similar to my story.  I understand the illness is schizoaffective disorder and not BPD.  However, I think BPD can be much more difficult for the non-BPD spouse to live with (as compared to a more obvious condition like schizoaffective disorder) because the seriousness of the situation is often only known to the other spouse and that makes it very difficult to get help ... especially when the pwBPD either does not recognize/admit the condition, and if even if the condition is acknowledged, refuses to get help.

[Gravity Man]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4fDNuAAwew

This is a take on Christians with BPD and what they are up against from one of he most well-known evangelical Christian counselors (David Powlison, recently deceased).  He describes what a tough hall this is for someone with BPD ... and I know it is for them.  But what about the spouse of someone with BPD, especially when they bear the brunt of the abusive BPD behavior.  How to live with that?  It seems like if the pwBPD does not want to minimally do work to help improve the situation, then it becomes very problematic for the spouse ... I am talking severe depression, suicide, acting out in improper ways.

I had two very conservatie Christian pastors, very educated, recommend that I separate.  I did not and that was the worst mistake that I made.  One of the pastors expressed concern for my mental state if I stayed ... and he was right.

I'm still married, it is going ok, but not without major mistakes on my part for staying in an abusive situation for several years.  I own my mistakes.

[Gravity Man]

https://www.crosswalk.com/family/marriage/doctor-david/dealing-with-the-borderline-in-your-life-11579450.html

This is probably one of the best articles I have seen for the Christain spouse on how to deal with their pwBPD spouse.
While I do like the article, I think there is a major fallacy and that is this statement towards the end:

"Nourish the times that are good, building upon the growth that occurs."

To me this is a two steps forward, one step back ... two steps forward, one step back ..., things little-by-little get better.

However, I think the reality is that if your spouse is not in treatment and not actively trying to improve themselves and the marriage, it is more like one step forward, two steps back.  It is hard to build upon the good times.

Even the counselor that I was seeing (and I think he was a good one) admitted to me that it was difficult to understand my situation having to constantly live in the chaos.