Not about BPD mother, but because of BPD mother probably...

[Depression = 72% of members]

Not exactly BPD mother related, but I am starting to wonder how being raised by her impacted my capacity to say no... Am I codependent? I am starting to observe some patterns in my own relationship, that I just don't like, and I don't know how to solve them.  My journal is on the other side of the room, so I reckoned I would write here today...

A friend of mine came to stay with us over the weekend, and when she left, she told me she was a bit surprised by how much I tolerated the clear unfairness in my relationship. And... I was a bit surprised... But it got me thinking.

I know her judgment comes from a place of love and worrying for me, while at the same time, she is not in a place to judge us, seeing how different we are. She cheated on her husband herself a few years back and so, I am not sure I can even rely on her view of my relationship with my husband... I mean, does she see things clearly, or is she just coming from a place of : "my house is better than yours..." While I generally trust her, she does tend to judge others harshly...  And it isn't the first time she talks against my husband.

Our relationship is not perfect, we have our fights, like every couples. But generally speaking, I do feel he is pulling me up instead of down. Is it all that matters?

I feel like, in society, in general, women carry more of the house load, especially when children are young. I know he is less patient than I am, less consistent... It's like I can carry more on my mental load than he can before collapsing.

I manage the children and everything related to them (doctors appointment, activities, now school, etc.), meals, groceries, clothes washing (he does maybe 5%), house cleanup (he does maybe 10%)... And I am now working ron my company (just got my first project (Woot! Woot!) and on my master thesis which I aim to finish this summer. This is where he helps : he takes care of the children every morning for 3hours and 2 hours in the evenings. Those 5 hours are for me to use as I like.  It is not a lot, but I work fast, and I would like more, it's true... But my children are my priority and I do enjoy my time with them.

Writing it down, I can see how this can seem unbalanced... But he manages all the admin, house repairs, and he is also in school now. His career is the reason I could go back to work on my master thesis, he currently is the source of our family's main income until I kickstart my firm... It counts for something I'd say...

I don't know why I am writing all this... We just had a fight where he acted as the nice father, telling me it was ok that my daughter took a full pot of margarine to play. I told her no calmly and he said "it's fine ! " And I told him how he was saying that today, but that in general, he also considers this not ok. That he should aim to be more consistent and that simple rules should not vary with his mood. He answered me like I was crazy, got mad and said : are you serious?  And he went downstairs. My daughter doesn't see me angry against him often, and she told him to stay and got mad at me for being mad, and he didn't blame me but he said something like : "I don't want to be here anymore, I am leaving but I love you and it's not your fault." To my daughter... And then he let me deal with the aftermath of my daughter blaming me for her father leaving.

This reminded me of my mother behavior. So very much. The stonewalling, the invalidation. Was I wrong? I still don't think I was.
Does this happen in all family or am I also replaying my childhood here without even realizing it? It seems like our fights always goes like that. He doesn't accept me standing up for myself. Every time I do : he leaves angry. But he sure doesn't mind criticizing me all the time and I'm supposed to just take it and stay calm somehow... And the worst is : I do. I generally shut up and shrug it off my shoulders, knowing it isn't really about me. But I am starting to resent him now.

Is he truly pulling me up? Or am I pulling myself up and he is just... There?

I don't know what I am expecting from this post... I need clarity. It seems I have process my past a lot in the last few weeks, and now it's time to look at my behavior, my present and the only thing I can see is that I am completely lost. My trust in people goes in and out like a wave. There is no consistency. Like with my mother I guess...

I trusted my mother in law, then yesterday she made comments about how my children would fall off the stairs, asked me again when I would stop breastfeeding (she is clearly against breastfeeding a one year old, I am on the him and I will know when we are done side), she made comments about how it was not ok that my brother gave us covid (he was asymptomatic and I honestly don't feel like blaming someone for this, its not like he did it on purpose!). She asked my daughter if she missed her and I immediately thought: not again...

And she kept asking her questions about if I gave her chocolate (ok just making discussion maybe...) but then she asked if it hurt when I brush her hair? I was like .. what the hell? It happened once that I was brushing my daughter's hair at their house and she started crying. I mean... She has curly hair, and she cried and I didn't stop, and maybe I should have, but I was holding her hair and making my best NOT to hurt her. I hated every second of it. Now it's s full on conditioner and I take twenty minutes brushing her hair because I brush one lump of hair at a time. It just felt really wrong that she would ask this, my daughter said :" it hurt a little bit, but not really." It's fair... It hurt a little bit when I brush my hair too... It just felt really weird that she would even ask that? In front of me? I don't know... Just felt wrong, like she was sending me a message because she couldn't see us for two weeks because of that covid thing and she was mad. She asked when my friend was at my house exactly, as if she was mad I hadn't invited her on Friday night... Just weird and out of bounds... Is that normal?

People are getting on my nerves these days. I don't know who and what I can trust anymore. Even my husband doesn't seem able to carry his own weight.

I just want peace, and I am tired of taking care of people. I am tired of being the strong one in my relationship (I say strength, but maybe I am just a doormat... Although I do speak up, but it just gives me anxiety and then I'm accused of having a bad character somehow?) while he gets to nap two hours per day and then he wonders why he didn't have the time to complete his chores... I guess it is truly unfair. But isn't it like this in like... 80% of families ? One of two doing more? Just...because?

I don't feel like I have a bad character. I mostly shut up actually, but some things I just can't shut up on. Even I have limits. We all do! How come holding them in place results in some people calling us "bad characters". Am I supposed to just shut up while someone is covertly saying I hurt my child on purpose? Or don't give them treats? That they will hurt themselves under my supervision or that I cuddle them too much because I still nreastfeed? Am I supposed to shut up when my husband criticizes me and makes me look like a stern mother because of simple, straightforward rule of not playing with grease? Am I truly the crazy one?

I am starting to see that I need more boundaries. Is that what they are used for? Boundaries to keep us from feeling lost, to keep us from losing ourselves in other's people needs or even in their judgments?

I am always surprised how just small comments, small disagreements results in me doubting myself, raises storms inside me like it is the end of the world. It literally leads to me losing my self as all those parts of my rise up trying to help, in a panic manner. Why can't I just be ok with not agreeing? Why am I always somehow made responsible for other's people feelings?

I really don't feel like I am guilty of anything right now. I truly am doing my best. What I miss is being able to safely live my life without people constantly trying to take advantage of me.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Not exactly BPD mother related, but I am starting to wonder how being raised by her impacted my capacity to say no... Am I codependent? I am starting to observe some patterns in my own relationship, that I just don't like, and I don't know how to solve them.  My journal is on the other side of the room, so I reckoned I would write here today...

A friend of mine came to stay with us over the weekend, and when she left, she told me she was a bit surprised by how much I tolerated the clear unfairness in my relationship. And... I was a bit surprised... But it got me thinking.

I know her judgment comes from a place of love and worrying for me, while at the same time, she is not in a place to judge us, seeing how different we are. She cheated on her husband herself a few years back and so, I am not sure I can even rely on her view of my relationship with my husband... I mean, does she see things clearly, or is she just coming from a place of : "my house is better than yours..." While I generally trust her, she does tend to judge others harshly...  And it isn't the first time she talks against my husband.

Our relationship is not perfect, we have our fights, like every couples. But generally speaking, I do feel he is pulling me up instead of down. Is it all that matters?

I feel like, in society, in general, women carry more of the house load, especially when children are young. I know he is less patient than I am, less consistent... It's like I can carry more on my mental load than he can before collapsing.

I manage the children and everything related to them (doctors appointment, activities, now school, etc.), meals, groceries, clothes washing (he does maybe 5%), house cleanup (he does maybe 10%)... And I am now working ron my company (just got my first project (Woot! Woot!) and on my master thesis which I aim to finish this summer. This is where he helps : he takes care of the children every morning for 3hours and 2 hours in the evenings. Those 5 hours are for me to use as I like.  It is not a lot, but I work fast, and I would like more, it's true... But my children are my priority and I do enjoy my time with them.

Writing it down, I can see how this can seem unbalanced... But he manages all the admin, house repairs, and he is also in school now. His career is the reason I could go back to work on my master thesis, he currently is the source of our family's main income until I kickstart my firm... It counts for something I'd say...

I don't know why I am writing all this... We just had a fight where he acted as the nice father, telling me it was ok that my daughter took a full pot of margarine to play. I told her no calmly and he said "it's fine ! " And I told him how he was saying that today, but that in general, he also considers this not ok. That he should aim to be more consistent and that simple rules should not vary with his mood. He answered me like I was crazy, got mad and said : are you serious?  And he went downstairs. My daughter doesn't see me angry against him often, and she told him to stay and got mad at me for being mad, and he didn't blame me but he said something like : "I don't want to be here anymore, I am leaving but I love you and it's not your fault." To my daughter... And then he let me deal with the aftermath of my daughter blaming me for her father leaving.

This reminded me of my mother behavior. So very much. The stonewalling, the invalidation. Was I wrong? I still don't think I was.
Does this happen in all family or am I also replaying my childhood here without even realizing it? It seems like our fights always goes like that. He doesn't accept me standing up for myself. Every time I do : he leaves angry. But he sure doesn't mind criticizing me all the time and I'm supposed to just take it and stay calm somehow... And the worst is : I do. I generally shut up and shrug it off my shoulders, knowing it isn't really about me. But I am starting to resent him now.

Is he truly pulling me up? Or am I pulling myself up and he is just... There?

I don't know what I am expecting from this post... I need clarity. It seems I have process my past a lot in the last few weeks, and now it's time to look at my behavior, my present and the only thing I can see is that I am completely lost. My trust in people goes in and out like a wave. There is no consistency. Like with my mother I guess...

I trusted my mother in law, then yesterday she made comments about how my children would fall off the stairs, asked me again when I would stop breastfeeding (she is clearly against breastfeeding a one year old, I am on the him and I will know when we are done side), she made comments about how it was not ok that my brother gave us covid (he was asymptomatic and I honestly don't feel like blaming someone for this, its not like he did it on purpose!). She asked my daughter if she missed her and I immediately thought: not again...

And she kept asking her questions about if I gave her chocolate (ok just making discussion maybe...) but then she asked if it hurt when I brush her hair? I was like .. what the hell? It happened once that I was brushing my daughter's hair at their house and she started crying. I mean... She has curly hair, and she cried and I didn't stop, and maybe I should have, but I was holding her hair and making my best NOT to hurt her. I hated every second of it. Now it's s full on conditioner and I take twenty minutes brushing her hair because I brush one lump of hair at a time. It just felt really wrong that she would ask this, my daughter said :" it hurt a little bit, but not really." It's fair... It hurt a little bit when I brush my hair too... It just felt really weird that she would even ask that? In front of me? I don't know... Just felt wrong, like she was sending me a message because she couldn't see us for two weeks because of that covid thing and she was mad. She asked when my friend was at my house exactly, as if she was mad I hadn't invited her on Friday night... Just weird and out of bounds... Is that normal?

People are getting on my nerves these days. I don't know who and what I can trust anymore. Even my husband doesn't seem able to carry his own weight.

I just want peace, and I am tired of taking care of people. I am tired of being the strong one in my relationship (I say strength, but maybe I am just a doormat... Although I do speak up, but it just gives me anxiety and then I'm accused of having a bad character somehow?) while he gets to nap two hours per day and then he wonders why he didn't have the time to complete his chores... I guess it is truly unfair. But isn't it like this in like... 80% of families ? One of two doing more? Just...because?

I don't feel like I have a bad character. I mostly shut up actually, but some things I just can't shut up on. Even I have limits. We all do! How come holding them in place results in some people calling us "bad characters". Am I supposed to just shut up while someone is covertly saying I hurt my child on purpose? Or don't give them treats? That they will hurt themselves under my supervision or that I cuddle them too much because I still nreastfeed? Am I supposed to shut up when my husband criticizes me and makes me look like a stern mother because of simple, straightforward rule of not playing with grease? Am I truly the crazy one?

I am starting to see that I need more boundaries. Is that what they are used for? Boundaries to keep us from feeling lost, to keep us from losing ourselves in other's people needs or even in their judgments?

I am always surprised how just small comments, small disagreements results in me doubting myself, raises storms inside me like it is the end of the world. It literally leads to me losing my self as all those parts of my rise up trying to help, in a panic manner. Why can't I just be ok with not agreeing? Why am I always somehow made responsible for other's people feelings?

I really don't feel like I am guilty of anything right now. I truly am doing my best. What I miss is being able to safely live my life without people constantly trying to take advantage of me.

[Notwendy]

There is a connection. I have had to do work on co-dependency. It took me a while to see the imbalance. And coincidentally, a friend pointed this out during a birthday party for my oldest, while I scurried around doing everything and my H didn't contribute.

Many of his behaviors reminded me of my BPD mother but still he was very different from her in many ways. Being the main wage earner was his reason for not "having to pitch in". I didn't mind doing most of the work of the home and child care, but didn't expect to be doing all of it with little to no assistance from him. It wasn't so much about the actual work put in but that the helping would be a supportive role- teamwork- and a mutually supportive relationship rather than the division we had.

I don't think he'd meet the full slate for BPD, nor were they (thankfully) nearly at the extreme like my mother. But I did see where my enabling/co-dependent behavior and low self esteem somehow matched his traits and this led to dysfunctional patterns between us.

I became very resentful of this. It felt like it was mostly me putting in the emotional work of the relationship. Interesting as- the increase in my mother's BPD behaviors when my father got ill and his death became a catalyst for me doing work on co dependency. Even before that, I lost interest in putting in so much emotional energy into the relationship with little results. My main focus was on the kids. It was then somehow that my H realized his investment in the relationship and agreed to MC. Mostly I feel  it was my work on co-dependency that helped change the patterns for the better but he did make an effort too.

We are a work in progress. Thankfully, he's different from my mother- it is a workable situation. I think working on co-dependency is a big help in changing this pattern.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Thank you Notwendy, I already feel less lonely.

I realise now how biased I am, with eyes wide shut I guess.

I don't know where to begin. What helped you the most? You shared a lot about your work with the 12-steps, was there something else helping?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Just got that MC is mariage counseling. Something I am starting to consider... My husband though says therapists are fraud.. you are who you are and that's about the extent of his internal work right now. I see him in constant flight mode, until he bursts.

Starting therapy was overdue, yet it feels like a nightmare right now, with everything it is uncovering.

[Notwendy]

We married men who have similar traits. For a long time, I tried to "fix" the relationship. My H would blame me. Since I came from the more obviously dysfunctional family, I assumed it was true. I read a lot of books on marriage trying to find a solution and changed "me" to meet his expectations ( and the bar seemed to always be changing ) to the point where I felt like a Stepford wife, more like his housekeeper/nanny with benefits than a spouse, in part to stop the arguments that were scaring my children.

I put so much energy into trying to make the marriage better, on the other hand, he didn't read any of the books I asked him to. It was basically all "my problem" as far as he was concerned.

I was miserable. So miserable in fact, I stopped caring about the relationship and focused on the kids. I had tried MC with him, mostly with him refusing like your H and saying he didn't think they were any help.

I didn't want to split the relationship- as I felt the impact on the kids would be worse. They were fine. He was fine. I had checked out of the relationship emotionally.

Ironically he noticed. And realized he didn't want the marriage to break and so he began to put sort of an effort into it  but not in an effective manner. It was around this time that my father got ill. I hit that much talked about bottom. I had no tolerance for dysfunction. I didn't insist my H agree to MC but I think he recognized that we needed to do something or the relationship would end.

It became clear that his reluctance to go to MC was that he feared the MC would tell me to leave the marriage. I knew that the MC had to be someone committed to helping keep families together and this one stated that. It had to be a female and it had to be someone I had not seen before. He chose the MC.

She was brilliant. I expected her to tell him what he needed to do, but she was smarter than that. She put the label on me, not him. Told me I needed to go to a 12 step program for co-dependency. I was mad at first. He got to sit back and be the one who is OK and I get the label and need to work on changing? But it was more effective to do this with me. I was willing to do whatever she recommended.

Working with a sponsor who turned the mirror on me was something I think was the best thing I could have done for me at the time. It was not easy or comfortable and sometimes I would be upset, but I know now it was "tough love" and a lot of help. With the MC, she'd do the same- talk to me - but my H was listening. We can't change another person, but by changing my behavior, some of the dynamics changed.

Is it perfect? No, but thankfully better. Admittedly, the inequalities changed now that the kids are grown. I have more time for myself now, even though I love it when they are visiting. But I have stopped trying to "fix us" and people pleasing. My investment in the relationship is more about my own ethics and trying to be authentic rather than to please him by being someone I am not.

I think you can get there too and I think working on co-dependency helps a lot- even if your H won't agree to MC. You can do it on your own.

[FeelingStuck]

Riverwolf, I think it's good you're focusing on how you feel during these interactions with H & MIL. Your friend's feedback was (I believe) unsolicited and you shouldn't feel obligated to be swayed by what they said after visiting. But I think it's good you're thinking back on these interactions on your own, and picking up on how they affect you.

Now, I don't know if H or MIL are uBPD, or if you have a co-dependent relationship (certainly therapy could help answer those questions), but don't you think that your unhappiness with certain behaviors should be the indicator of whether you have to tolerate them?

• If your MIL asks probing questions of your daughter like she did (which I agree are odd and at the very least subconsciously threatening), maybe there is a way to raise those with her that won't come off as accusatory but will put her on notice that they have been overreaching. Perhaps a therapist will help come up with a way to address that.
• I'm not yet a parent myself, but understand that presenting a united front to children, even in the face of a disagreement, is an important part of parenting and maintaining your romantic relationship. I think you're justified to tell H it was unfair of him to tell your daughter yes to playing with the margarine if it was a rule you both had set together before. If he reacts poorly to that, especially in front of your daughter, leaving you to look like the bad guy, that is absolutely not a good response. You could remind him that you want to set an example for your daughter of being a loving and collaborative couple, so she knows what to look for in her own friendships and relationships, and you want him to work on being receptive to feedback and willing to compromise with you.

I think it's good you're considering therapy to help get into these issues. Having a third party to mediate conversations could help be a forcing mechanism for your husband to hear you out your concerns with his behavior.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy, thank you very much for opening up on this matter. What you said really resonated with me and I find a lot of hope in what you wrote. I don't believe mariage can ever be perfect... But maybe I can aim to be true to myself, and start feeling a bit less disconnected.

I do feel I emotionnally checked out of the relationship, I feel like we are roomates. It was my birthday last Saturday. My friend came over. My husband did nothing... no present, no card from the children, no flower... he bitched about the food I wanted to eat and it was routine as usual, except for my friend being there... I actually wondered if I was ever truly invested in it, or if I chose someone who is checked out himself as a way to prevent some hurt. We are friends, but I don't know that we ever were lovers. He helped me a lot to believe in myself, he is good counsel in general for work and a good exemple to be more assertive. He is safe to be around and a good father, a reliable man. I know he is not going anywhere, but I wonder if he realizes just how disconnected we are getting.  But then... Aren't friends supposed to make the best mariage ?

My therapist mentioned wanting to talk about my husband next time we meet. I guess he will have some more insights for me about it.

All relationships have their issues. I am looking to find my part in it, and I am starting to see how I keep gaslighting myself. I am a bit sad that I might never feel truly connected to anyone other than pets. But if I can, at least, stand up, for real, for myself... That would already be better.

I breached the subject of MIL with husband, he said to assume she talks behind my back and adjust my behavior accordingly. Things were starting to go well with her. Everytime I start trusting someone... Maybe I open up too much, too quick after all. I thought that was a good thing, but I am starting to question myself on this too.

A lot to digest.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Thank you for your reply Feelingstuck,

They aren't BPD. I'm more contemplating the effect having been raised by a BPD mother had on the mariage I chose for myself and how hard it is for me to be consistent in trusting people.

I am already seeing a therapist. He mentioned wanting to talk about my husband last week, so I guess it kickstarted the process in my mind. We will have something to work on during our next session after all it seems !    

[Goldcrest]

Riv3rW0lf, a lot of what you have written resonates with me. What is your H like after arguments, can he take responsibility for his part in things? Acknowledge how you felt and if necessary adapt his behaviour to ensure things pan out differently next time?

In my own relationship it took me years to accept I was married to someone similar to my father. My H had a tough childhood but in a different way to me. In his house only his dad was allowed to be angry. It was the kind of locked in anger that simmers and is passive/aggressive and controlling. Everyone knew he was angry but no one dared challenge it. His mum most definitely was co-dependant, her whole life is about helping others and yet when his dad gets angry she will get sick and take to her bed.

The difficulty with the above is as a couple we know the impact it has had, yet my H refuses to acknowledge that his childhood can be triggering for him in our relationship. He is very shame avoidant. Because I am a scapegoat, I tend to take responsibility for stuff beyond what is mine. If a child suddenly trips in front of me, somehow I believe it is my fault and will end up convincing myself so. I also spent many years doing the heavy lifting both in tasks and emotions. For me this built up a lot of resentment. I would try to be the "perfect wife" not wanting to be emotional because my H doesn't cope with emotions (because of his upbringing) then It would start to leak, passive/aggressive, till I would get very angry and then the argument would quickly switch from my unhappiness, to my being angry and that being a problem for him.

I guess I am telling you the above to say that usually in a relationship their are two sides. My H found it hard, because of his absolute difficulty with shame (and I too have struggled with this!) to consider that he might have been allowing me to do more, like his mum doing everything for his dad. Even now, with us separating and me living with him till I find somewhere, I do all the cleaning and shopping.

All relationships have their issues. I am looking to find my part in it, and I am starting to see how I keep gaslighting myself. I am a bit sad that I might never feel truly connected to anyone other than pets. But if I can, at least, stand up, for real, for myself... That would already be better.

This, broke my heart. I often feel this. You are making such great progress so keep pushing forward. It is a process, a journey and as you say standing up for yourself is amazing because finally you get to live your life on your terms.

  Relationships are hard and when you have come from a FOO where you were abused, you have no template for healthy relating. No way to know if you are doing too much or being irrational. So it is important to ask questions and to check in with yourself. If you feel angry about something, I have now learned that is a good sign. I think you have talked about this too.

[Notwendy]

Goldcrest- your H's family sounds similar to my H's family. It's almost as if each family were two sides of a similar dysfunctional coin. With my mother, emotions were all over the place with her raging, crying, and other behaviors. In my H's family, people don't show their feelings but they are passive aggressive and avoid making his father angry.

While I see that my family of origin is overtly (obviously) disordered, his is covert. Yet, by comparison, his is more calm and functional. Still, I wondered about the "match" aspect. One marriage book I read suggested we match our romantic partners in our level of "differentiation" a term used to describe boundaries and relationship skills.

One thing the marriage counselor pointed out was that opposites of one extreme is still dysfunctional. Staying silent and distant (his family) as a opposed to screaming and raging (my mother) was not being functional. Somewhere in the middle was. Neither of us grew up in families that role modeled this.

Although I don't behave like my mother when it comes to expressing feelings, I do express them and I think this is one thing that attracted my H to me as it was lacking in his family. I also think I was attracted to his outwardly calm demeanor, but the one emotion he did show was anger and anger is one that scared me. Once the MC established there wasn't physical danger to me, she helped me work on not being as fearful, not walking on eggshells.

Learning about boundaries was interesting. They can be too porous- like in my family where boundaries weren't respected, but they can also be too solid- and this is the case in my H's family. One thing I wondered was - is my wish to be emotionally closer to my H appropriate or co-dependent? I don't know. On his part, I realized that my idea of being close was too close for him. He's more comfortable when less emotionally connected. Ironically- he both liked my emotional attempts but also resisted them. It's almost as if I did the emotional expression for both of us.

Since working on co-dependency, I don't feel the same need to be as close emotionally. I have also learned to respect that his boundaries are different from mine. He seems to be more comfortable talking to me now as I am less emotionally reactive. I don't think this change is due to me "not being me" but having better boundaries myself.

Through ACA ( which includes dysfunction- families with someone who is addicted to alcohol have similar patterns as a family with BPD) I learned that we learn behaviors that allow us to function in our own families growing up but that these behaviors are not helping us in our adult relationships. It's not always obvious to us because these are our "normal". Having someone point them out to me ( sponsor, MC) was helpful. I also think there's aspects of dysfunction in my H's family that would be helpful for him to look at, but he isn't interested and maintains that it was "normal". Of course he would- as our families influence our "normal". But doing that is up to him, not me.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Thank you Goldcrest, so much of what you wrote... Like you are putting words on my feelings for me, both strange and validating, really...

Anger is also my husband's default emotion. He is angry. At small things, at big things. He is often, almost always angry. Not toward us necessarily, but I do try to soften his anger by upholding a more emotionally stable front, trying to ignore his cursing. Then resentment build up with his critics but also because of my own silence. And I get angry too, and somehow, I get painted as the bad one for being angry, like yesterday.

Riv3rW0lf, a lot of what you have written resonates with me. What is your H like after arguments, can he take responsibility for his part in things? Acknowledge how you felt and if necessary adapt his behaviour to ensure things pan out differently next time?

Yesterday, he ignored me until late afternoon, at which point I called him to come up. I was calm and told him I would like us to discuss what happened as two people who love each other. He got pissed : " there is nothing to discuss!" I said I could see he was angry, but I needed to know if we understood each other. He blamed me for getting angry at him in front of our daughter. I listened to him but chose not to take the blame, and reminded him that I was calm, but that he kept discarding me, and so yes I bursted. I remained very calm saying all this. I added that I would like us to hold a common front with our daughter, that if what I am ststing as a rule is rational, then he should stand by me, like I stand by him for things that bother him but not me, and I have him an rxanple.

I could tell he felt ashamed. He said he was sorry, that he would do better. He looked ashamed. It's the first time I actually pick up on his shame.

So I guess he does. But I need to remain highly in control of my own emotions and be very calm while he goes through bursts of anger and blame before recognizing I am not his ennemy and never was. And that I am not shaming him, just standing up for myself.

I think this relationship is workable, but like Notwendy, I definitely need to work on my codependent behaviors.

I just feel like every ground I gain in reaching a fairer balance, I then need to ferociously defend or he will revert back to letting me do everything. It can get exhausting.

In my own relationship it took me years to accept I was married to someone similar to my father. My H had a tough childhood but in a different way to me. In his house only his dad was allowed to be angry. It was the kind of locked in anger that simmers and is passive/aggressive and controlling. Everyone knew he was angry but no one dared challenge it. His mum most definitely was co-dependant, her whole life is about helping others and yet when his dad gets angry she will get sick and take to her bed.

I am amazed at the traits your ex-husband, Notwendy's husband and mine share. Honestly. As if, with a similar trauma, we aligned ourselves with similar partners.

The difficulty with the above is as a couple we know the impact it has had, yet my H refuses to acknowledge that his childhood can be triggering for him in our relationship. He is very shame avoidant. Because I am a scapegoat, I tend to take responsibility for stuff beyond what is mine. If a child suddenly trips in front of me, somehow I believe it is my fault and will end up convincing myself so. I also spent many years doing the heavy lifting both in tasks and emotions. For me this built up a lot of resentment. I would try to be the "perfect wife" not wanting to be emotional because my H doesn't cope with emotions (because of his upbringing) then It would start to leak, passive/aggressive, till I would get very angry and then the argument would quickly switch from my unhappiness, to my being angry and that being a problem for him.

Very similar to our dynamics.

Plus, the resentment of doing more makes it very hard for me to accept his blame and critics. I am sometimes amazed at how differently we perceive our shared reality, him and I. Like we are on different planets.

I am getting to know his parents better, and I am getting a better grasp of his childhood. It wasn't easy either. He was the scapegoat and his brother the golden child. His parents "cannot believe he went back to university and is succeeding", they think back at how undisciplined he was... I heard his father covertly telling him he wasn't trustworthy in society (my husband is in law enforcement). They keep pushing him down for some reasons, they never recognize his achievements. And like Notwendy's husband: it is all covert. Like the questions MIL were asking to my daughter... I could tell she was pissed at me for some reasons, and she was sending subtil baits to hurt me, it's quite clear to me today...

 This, broke my heart. I often feel this. You are making such great progress so keep pushing forward. It is a process, a journey and as you say standing up for yourself is amazing because finally you get to live your life on your terms.

I am starting to contact this pain... I don't allow myself to be vulnerable and I realize now I have been in denial a lot... "It's not so bad... It's ok... I can still open up... " But deep inside, I feel so, so terribly lonely. And I remember reading one of your post where you did too. And I answered hopeful words, the words I attach myself to, to keep me from drowning. But I forgot to tell you, just how lonely I feel too.  

I do believe things will improve for us. Right now, I think I need to be depressed though.. to truly connect with the abandoned child I was, and all of her pain and hurt. I was molested. My father confirmed it and it really hurt. I cannot escape it anymore. it led me to actually remember part of it, and this is a memory I am having a hard time to process. And I know now I need to acknowledge the mistrust it created toward my own specie. I cannot keep lying to myself. I need to face my past if I want to move forward. It is not easy, and it was all deeply unjust for all of us... But then : we are warriors. We will make it through.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Notwendy, you gave me lots to think about.

I also see my husband's family as covertly dysfunctional. I am getting to know them... My husband told me yesterday to assume my MIL is talking in my back. This is saying a lot.

In my family, everything is overt.

I think you are right that we attracted each other for this very reason. My husband gets very angry, but I am unsure if he even knows why. He is always in flight mode. He does react well to me showing love and empathy toward him, while at the same time being repulsed by it. I almost have to fight him to get closer to him. It takes a lot to get his guard down. It's like we a business partners, managing our financial assets to secure our children's future... There is not much heart to heart anymore.

And I am now aware I chose a man like this because of my own mistrust and need to relive my loneliness... The problem is that now : I don't want to be lonely anymore. I want to connect. It changes the dynamics. I am changing and he is not.

But like you said, me changing might, in the end, be enough for the both of us. But I fear I might always miss a little more... Like you though : my children are my priority, and I know they need my husband and I to work through it. And so I will.

[Notwendy]

A motivation to work on my part was to change the intergeneration cycle. I don't have BPD but my father was co-dependent and each of them were role models for me. I didn't want to role model co-dependency for the children.

Another motivation was that I learned that if we leave a relationship without working on our part in it, we risk recreating similar dynamics with someone else. So no matter what might happen with the relationship, I knew that me being co-dependent was a factor in who I would be attracted to and who would be attracted to me.  I didn't want or think of anyone else but it made no sense to break up a family on the basis of dysfunction that I played a part in. It made more sense to work on my part.

[FirstSteps]

Notwendy - this last message resonates so much with me.  thank you for it.  I'm working through why I'm staying in my relationship, what I'm bringing to it and also processing my FOO.  No one was diagnosable BPD, I think, but lots of BPD traits and much anger and even more co-dependency.  I don't feel I can take on the chaos of a divorce with kids in the house before I've sorted this all out, though my question is whether I actually will get the space to do that within the marriage.

[Notwendy]

whether I actually will get the space to do that within the marriage.

This can really vary I think. And in addition, BPD is on such a spectrum when it comes to behaviors and function. My mother is on the severe end of the spectrum. She is extremely emotionally needy and also doesn't contribute much to the "work" of running a household and family. In addition, she's made suicide attempts and needs constant attention and supervision. For the family to function, my father had to do it all or arrange for help such as child care and household tasks. Once we kids grew up, there were still my mother's needs he was concerned about.

In my situation, there was none of this thankfully. It was to me more dysfunction on the level of traits, poor communication, and dysfunctional patterns we learned in our own families of origin.

In my H's family, his father is emotionally disconnected. Emotions in the family were not expressed unless Dad got angry, which didn't happen often as everyone tip toed around him as to not bother him. He was often disengaged from the family, going off to do his own thing away from the family. Still, he's an ethical person, a loyal and reliable provider who demonstrated his care for his family that way.

H also grew up with "men don't do housework" and if I dared to ask for help, he'd get angry at me. That's on him, but as the MC pointed out- my own fear of making someone angry by asking or saying no to something played into this and enabled the patterns . Not only did we recreate some of the dynamics from my FOO, we also recreated the ones from his.

When the kids were little, they took up most of my time and focus. What actually led to the space to attend therapy and 12 step groups was that they got older and needed less supervision. In addition, my H loves his kids and he's very good to them. So I had no fears about them being home alone with him so I could go to a meeting. The fact that my H is good to the kids means a lot to me. That's a huge plus- the relationship may have had issues but the kids were fine. The issues were exclusive to us and if I am 1/2 of them, then I can do my part.

So FirstSteps - some things to consider for carving out time to yourself. I think your children are young now but also consider the needs of your wife. How functional is she? Can she contribute to the household tasks or do you do it all? Are the kids safe if they are home alone with her? Is she safe? It may be that you need to schedule a counseling session some time during the workday, or attend a 12 step group at lunch time -  but I think it's worth trying.

What are your boundaries? For me, one of them is is the kids. Having grown up with a verbally and emotionally abusive mother, there's no way I'd tolerate that. This became a flash point between me and my parents when I had boundaries with BPD mother. There are some more but it's important to know what yours are.

To leave or stay is individual and there isn't just one right answer. One thing the MC pointed out was that working on relationship skills could help regardless. Even if there was a split, the two of you would still be co-parenting. That's still a relationship so it makes sense to try to improve your part in it.

[Riv3rW0lf]

A motivation to work on my part was to change the intergeneration cycle. I don't have BPD but my father was co-dependent and each of them were role models for me. I didn't want to role model co-dependency for the children.

Another motivation was that I learned that if we leave a relationship without working on our part in it, we risk recreating similar dynamics with someone else. So no matter what might happen with the relationship, I knew that me being co-dependent was a factor in who I would be attracted to and who would be attracted to me.  I didn't want or think of anyone else but it made no sense to break up a family on the basis of dysfunction that I played a part in. It made more sense to work on my part.

Very true.

I've seen my father do that. He left my mother only to wind up with a NPD, followed by BPD after BPD. None of his relationships was healthy, until he reached a breaking point under the guise of the worst of the worst, the bottom of the BPD spectrum. She was quite something, the last one. But it took her for him to finally get it, and work through his internal struggles.

He did had to leave her though, because BPD is BPD, and one can only take so much abuse...

[Notwendy]

It's a spectrum- so perhaps for your father, some relationships were more tolerable than others or he just got to the point where he didn't want to deal with it. But I think the "self work" part isn't about the other person but about us. We gain the skills. For those of us who grew up in dysfunctional families, we learned certain behaviors as children. They worked for us in that family, but then as adults, they aren't as functional, so then, we can unlearn them and learn different ones.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It's a spectrum- so perhaps for your father, some relationships were more tolerable than others or he just got to the point where he didn't want to deal with it. But I think the "self work" part isn't about the other person but about us. We gain the skills. For those of us who grew up in dysfunctional families, we learned certain behaviors as children. They worked for us in that family, but then as adults, they aren't as functional, so then, we can unlearn them and learn different ones.

My father was emotionally deprived. He would go from one woman to the other, but only truly felt in love with the worst ones, most of them being either BPD or NPD.

He shared recently that he was attracted to those specific women because of past issues he hadn't dealt with, amongst which the rupture between his BPD brother and him, and the abandonment he suffered when his parents and sister died suddenly in a car crash, leaving only his little brother behind. He needed to feel a very strong connection with his partner, and BPD, at first, tend to come across as everything he was looking for: a complete merge.

The last one was so bad, he couldn't endure it and he finally looked inside, and started working on his codependent behaviors, on his own needs. Why did he kept repeating the same patterns, woman after woman? And he finally found a well rounded woman to finish his life with, who is emotionally stable and loving. Interestingly enough, she also had to work a lot on her codependent behaviors. So they are both doing the work together now.

I think self work is both inside AND outside of us.. for me, the other is the mirror we need to look at to understand ourselves (not only in mariage, but everyone we are attracted to), especially within triggering relationships.

Being triggered is not really about the other, even though it sometimes feel this way... In a way, I think we choose a partner who will trigger us... to recognize the behaviors within ourselves that are now unwarranted. And develop new, healthier behaviors.

I imagine that sometimes, when we start self-work, some relationship just can't hold, while others can... Which all depend on the indivuals within the relationship and their capacity to be flexible and evolve together.

In my case, and after thinking long and hard on it: I chose a "business partner",  a mind to mind relationship. I went into a science degree to develop my rational brain, and I chose a highly rational partner too. We are highly independant and both very critical of ourselves. I chose the man who didn't seem to put as much emphasis on sexuality, because of my trauma. And I chose someone who is highly protective of those he loves, to compensate and make me feel safer in the world. We are "business partners oriented toward the wellness of our kids and in securing their future". He hates emotions and display of emotions, like my mother which makes me feel "right at home"... It is not a perfect relationship, but a workable one, because he is safe and he loves his kids, which to me is what matters the most.

The issue is, the more I work on myself, the more I find myself needing heart to heart, which is what the untraumatized me is... Traumatized me hides behind mathematics and science, but real me sees value in emotions and wellness. And as he currently is, he cannot provide the heart to heart connection... I am unsure how to get ourselves there.