Boundaries, the "what?" response and the retroactive response

[Depression = 72% of members]

I was inspired by the thread "Very hard to show support when her family is toxic to her" by boogie74, and formfliers posts about boundaries... also continuing on my thread "It's so boring...".

I want to have some time for myself when the kids have gone to sleep but she's expecting us to sit down together every single evening. I'm anticipating the "What?"response  or the retroactive response. Of course the straight to rage response is also a possible outcome but that's something else.

Hypothetical but realistic example of the "What?" response:
Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna read my book tonight, is that ok?" (trying to act confident but expecting resistance, and honestly feeling guilty already)
Her: "No, I wanna have a nice time with you Don't you wan't to spend time with me? I always want to spend time with you in the evenings."
Me: "Hmm, okay, maybe we can have a cup of tea " (thinking that if I get this over with, maybe I can have 30 minutes to myself after)
The tea procedure drags on and it feels impossible to exit without guilt and tension. The guilt and tension makes me depressed and the "alone time" would feel useless as I couldn't relax. And then it's time to go to bed (and probably too late as usual).

Hypothetical example of the retroactive response:
Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna read my book tonight, is that ok?"
Her: "Ok..."
Me: "Oh... great. Do you have something you want to do?" (feeling a bit relieved but also guilty and concerned)
Her: "Well, you could have asked that FIRST, but sure."
Me: "We can have tea at 11 pm before we go to bed, ok?"
Her: "Maybe..."
Days or weeks later:
Her: "Why do I always have to wait for you? Why isn't it me that's asking for alone time and not you?"
Me: JADE or "I hear you".
Her: "How can you prioritize a book before me, when we're in the middle of a crisis? I barely have the energy to wake up every morning and you care about your book and your "own time". What about my own time? You are so selfish and a tyrant. I'm tired of you making the rules. A relationship is supposed to be equal."
Me: "Fine... but I think everyone has a right to a little time for themselves. You too! I can take care of the kids, that's not a problem."
The argument dies down after a while, I didn't agree to me being selfish but I avoid reading a book by myself in the future and maybe try something else that also gets infected.


Any insight into how I could handle this differently? The hard thing here is that it has become a routine for us to sit down together every evening and watch tv and/or talk. The biggest problem is my guilty feelings for breaking this habit even once a week or once a month, and the feeling that it's not worth the effort. The thing is that in ideal circumstances I do like this routine with her and I don't bother very much what we're watching, but it would feel nice to have the option to spend time alone too if I feel like it.

[15years]

I was inspired by the thread "Very hard to show support when her family is toxic to her" by boogie74, and formfliers posts about boundaries... also continuing on my thread "It's so boring...".

I want to have some time for myself when the kids have gone to sleep but she's expecting us to sit down together every single evening. I'm anticipating the "What?"response  or the retroactive response. Of course the straight to rage response is also a possible outcome but that's something else.

Hypothetical but realistic example of the "What?" response:
Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna read my book tonight, is that ok?" (trying to act confident but expecting resistance, and honestly feeling guilty already)
Her: "No, I wanna have a nice time with you Don't you wan't to spend time with me? I always want to spend time with you in the evenings."
Me: "Hmm, okay, maybe we can have a cup of tea " (thinking that if I get this over with, maybe I can have 30 minutes to myself after)
The tea procedure drags on and it feels impossible to exit without guilt and tension. The guilt and tension makes me depressed and the "alone time" would feel useless as I couldn't relax. And then it's time to go to bed (and probably too late as usual).

Hypothetical example of the retroactive response:
Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna read my book tonight, is that ok?"
Her: "Ok..."
Me: "Oh... great. Do you have something you want to do?" (feeling a bit relieved but also guilty and concerned)
Her: "Well, you could have asked that FIRST, but sure."
Me: "We can have tea at 11 pm before we go to bed, ok?"
Her: "Maybe..."
Days or weeks later:
Her: "Why do I always have to wait for you? Why isn't it me that's asking for alone time and not you?"
Me: JADE or "I hear you".
Her: "How can you prioritize a book before me, when we're in the middle of a crisis? I barely have the energy to wake up every morning and you care about your book and your "own time". What about my own time? You are so selfish and a tyrant. I'm tired of you making the rules. A relationship is supposed to be equal."
Me: "Fine... but I think everyone has a right to a little time for themselves. You too! I can take care of the kids, that's not a problem."
The argument dies down after a while, I didn't agree to me being selfish but I avoid reading a book by myself in the future and maybe try something else that also gets infected.


Any insight into how I could handle this differently? The hard thing here is that it has become a routine for us to sit down together every evening and watch tv and/or talk. The biggest problem is my guilty feelings for breaking this habit even once a week or once a month, and the feeling that it's not worth the effort. The thing is that in ideal circumstances I do like this routine with her and I don't bother very much what we're watching, but it would feel nice to have the option to spend time alone too if I feel like it.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Silverdash]

How about planning alone time in advance? This way you can chose a time o discuss it when emotiona may not be as high or when her/your energy levels are not as depleted. Then it's not a request you are making, which gives her power to say yes or no. You can frame it as some thing to benefit you both. Time to read, meditate, watch some thing the other person may not enjoy as much

[PeteWitsend]

...

Any insight into how I could handle this differently? ...  

The biggest problem is my guilty feelings for breaking this habit even once a week or once a month, and the feeling that it's not worth the effort.

Your guilty feelings are stemming from her reaction and behavior; she's controlling you mentally.  

I'd change my response starting at the end of this exchange in your post:

Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna read my book tonight, is that ok?" (trying to act confident but expecting resistance, and honestly feeling guilty already)
Her: "No, I wanna have a nice time with you Smiling (click to insert in post) Don't you wan't to spend time with me? Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post) I always want to spend time with you in the evenings."

*SNIP*

Now, instead of going down the path with her, you say:
Me: "I enjoy spending time with you as well, but I'd really like to read my book today."

Then you don't justify, or argue, etc., you pick up your book, go sit where you want, and read it.    

Be prepared for the inevitable blow back and boundary testing and pushing.  Hopefully, it's not ugly, or extreme.  Expect her to grumble and complain and whine, and lie and say you never want to spend time with me.  All that is just intended to provoke a response and get you arguing with (i.e. spending time with...) her instead of reading your book.  

Don't worry about the "gray area" kinda stuff, where you start arguing with yourself mentally whether she's right and whether you spend enough time with her.  Just read your book, and don't JADE.  Propose another time to do something with her.  

The ideal compromise would be for her to do something for herself while you read your book, but expect that to go sideways (if she is BPD) when she keeps interrupting what you're doing.  I had the same issue; I'd be reading a book, and BPDxw would say "can you come sit with me while you read at least?"  

SO I would.  Then she'd start asking me questions or making comments expecting a response.  If I said I'm sorry, I can't read and listen to you at the same time, she'd get angry.  This could escalate into an angry fight, her stamping off and slamming the door, and not speaking to me for days.  Hopefully, that doesn't happen in your case, but you need to set your boundaries here and she needs to respect them.

[kells76]

Great examples to work through.

This stood out to me:

Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna read my book tonight, is that ok?"

I wonder how things would go if you... didn't ask her if it was OK for you to take care of yourself. Why does she (as formflier would put it) "get a vote" on you taking care of yourself?

Second thing that stood out to me was:

Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna read my book tonight, is that ok?"

There's a concept of "thinking past the sale", and while I won't do justice to it in my explanation, it's the idea that you're talking about something as if it were already going to happen. The salesperson: "After you buy this car, will you drive it for fun or work". Blatant example but it's a mindset shifter.

To me your statement above isn't "thinking past the sale" -- it's perhaps inadvertently suggesting that it's OK to have debate about what you want to do.

Again... what would it be like to "decide and inform" about what you will do, versus "hint at, want to do, ask if it's OK to do, wait for conflict"?

An example of putting those two ideas together could be:

(original statement): "Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna read my book tonight, is that ok?" "

(idea for different approach): "Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna I'm going to read my book tonight, is that ok?"

We could talk through "what comes next" if you were to try the different approach, too.

Edited to add:

BIFF can be your friend; JADE isn't. I missed the Explanation/Justification the first time I read it through, but found it just now. What if we shortened even the above approach:

"Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna I'm going to read my book tonight, is that ok?" (there's the JADE in bold -- again, needing to relax doesn't require any justification)

So what if we tried:

"I'm beyond wiped out... I'm going to read my book tonight... Goodnight babe..."

I think then we're getting Brief (word count from 22 to 13 if you include the Goodnight babe), Informative (what you are going to do), Friendly (closing words), and Firm (no "open doors to argument").

Thoughts?

[PeteWitsend]

Kells said it better than I did!

Don't ask for permission and don't ask if it's okay.  Do it.  

Only thing I'd add to the conversation at this point is to think about the words you can use to remain calm in the face of her escalating - or attempting to escalate - this into a fight or argument or discussion of why you're being selfish/mean/pushing her away/never want to spend time with her/ bla bla bla... don't engage on her terms, just calmly reiterate what you want or need and do it. 

It gets easier the more you do it.  

[Cat Familiar]

I’m in total agreement with kells and PeteWitsend.

Asking for permission to take care of yourself is asking for an argument.

Just do it.

It may feel weird at first, but that’s because your reality has become so skewed living with a partner with a personality disorder for so many years.

Yes, she will throw a fit, but just let her, until she gets bored with doing so. You’ve been trying (unsuccessfully) to manage her emotions for many years. In doing so, you’ve deprived her of the opportunity to self soothe.

Members such as thankful person have been in similar situations. She had to ask her partner’s permission to take a shower. Now that she is asserting herself and taking care of her own needs, her partner is much less disordered.

It’s scary changing our long-standing patterns, but if you don’t, you will certainly just get more of the same.

[formflier]

I would also trying adding in a future "together" idea.

"hey babe...(doing something else comment), I'm hoping we can schedule a together walk tomorrow after breakfast?   Can you do that?

Notice I reintroduced a question..but the question is not about "alone time"...it's about "together".

Note:  I would stick with the kells76 idea first.  As short as possible.

Then use other variations for the next time so you don't seem like it's a memorized thing.

Last possibility which has just a bit of jade in it.

"Hey babe...screaming heachache.  I'm worried I'll be an azzhole if I try to hangout with you.  How about I rest up this evening and let's (insert future thing for tomorrow)."

Best,

FF

[15years]

Great suggestions everyone, I'll read them again tomorrow.

What do you think about what silverdash suggested about planning/scheduling? Or at least hint at being interested in spending some evenings apart. Would it make it easier if it didn't come entirely out of the blue?

[formflier]

"getting ahead of it" is a great idea.  Being proactive.

However, I would focus your attention on the difference between a calm "regulated" planning sessions where an agreement is made to be apart for a night...and how she actually handles that evening apart (or the thought of it as it gets closer)

My sense is the "planning" will go well and then actual apart time...not so much. 

I'm not saying that to deter you from trying, instead I want to prepare you for what will likely take place.

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

I agree with the points raised about, “is that ok?” (Well actually it was Cat, FF and Kells who taught me it ). I was always asking permission from my wife in the old days. I try to stop myself every single time now. And I have realised that actually, if I really think about it, it is very rarely necessary to ask permission from my wife to do anything. She is now used to the new me and my new behaviours and she has adjusted well (Not without huge struggles along the way). But what strikes me is this: when you ask someone’s permission… you are giving them the right to decide whether you are allowed to do something. If you do not ask, you are giving the message, this is my choice. Once upon a time, early in my relationship, my wife and I were shopping for furniture and I answered a phone call from my mum. My wife laid such a guilt trip on me afterwards, that I never again answered a call from anyone if we were together, without first asking her permission. I’ve stopped doing this recently. And she’s totally over it. She doesn’t bother with the guilt trips. If way back when I hadn’t become so upset and apologetic, she would never have had that control over me.

[fisher101]

Great examples to work through.

This stood out to me:

I wonder how things would go if you... didn't ask her if it was OK for you to take care of yourself. Why does she (as formflier would put it) "get a vote" on you taking care of yourself?

Second thing that stood out to me was:

There's a concept of "thinking past the sale", and while I won't do justice to it in my explanation, it's the idea that you're talking about something as if it were already going to happen. The salesperson: "After you buy this car, will you drive it for fun or work". Blatant example but it's a mindset shifter.

To me your statement above isn't "thinking past the sale" -- it's perhaps inadvertently suggesting that it's OK to have debate about what you want to do.

Again... what would it be like to "decide and inform" about what you will do, versus "hint at, want to do, ask if it's OK to do, wait for conflict"?

An example of putting those two ideas together could be:

(original statement): "Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna read my book tonight, is that ok?" "

(idea for different approach): "Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna I'm going to read my book tonight, is that ok?"

We could talk through "what comes next" if you were to try the different approach, too.

Edited to add:

BIFF can be your friend; JADE isn't. I missed the Explanation/Justification the first time I read it through, but found it just now. What if we shortened even the above approach:

"Me: "My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna I'm going to read my book tonight, is that ok?" (there's the JADE in bold -- again, needing to relax doesn't require any justification)

So what if we tried:

"I'm beyond wiped out... I'm going to read my book tonight... Goodnight babe..."

I think then we're getting Brief (word count from 22 to 13 if you include the Goodnight babe), Informative (what you are going to do), Friendly (closing words), and Firm (no "open doors to argument").

Thoughts?

Great response.

She'll probably get mad anyway so just do what you want to do.

[Notwendy]

I think being proactive and planning your evening off is a good idea. I agree with not asking permission, but also will examine the wording as if I was speaking to my BPD mother.

"My head is spinning from not having any alone time today, so I just wanna read my book tonight, is that ok?"

In the Karpman triangle dynamics, this is speaking from a position of victim. Your head is spinning ---- you are not feeling well. You haven't had any alone time. IMHO, this whole sentence is JADE. You are already explaining/justifying why you want some time to yourself. You can simply want to read a book.

This would not work with my BPD mother. She sees herself in victim position. If you come in with a statement that you need something because you feel your head is spinning, this feels to her as if you are asking her for understanding. You don't dare take away that position. To my BPD mother, the only two roles you can have are rescuer or persecutor, and if you aren't rescuer, you are persecutor and she will then retaliate.

In her perspective, you are supposed to be considerate to her, not the other way around, because she feels like a victim. So to her, asking for understanding is an affront. How dare you. While it's normal to want to be understood,  her response will be abusive. She will either mock you or be hurtful in response.

The next part " not having alone time" would be seen as an accusation as if someone it's her fault that you don't have alone time. That's persecutor position.

This is my mother's response to anyone being "down" for any reason. While one expects a normal response of empathy, her response is the opposite. Using Karpman triangle dynamics, I realized that she needs to stay in victim position. I noticed her extended family members are always flattering her. This seems inauthentic to me, but I think they have learned how to speak to her.

The next assumption would be that asking for alone time means you don't want to spend time with her. In black and white thinking- wanting to be alone means never spending time with her.

So how to word this effectively? While this may sound like walking on eggshells, it's about communicating as effectively as possible ( if possible). Plan for both time alone and time together. It may be better to have this on a schedule, for instance start with one evening. Then it could be something like "every Tuesday" is your night. Routines are helpful but start with one.

"Hi honey, I love spending time with you and also there's a book I want to read. So this Tuesday, after we put the kids to bed, I'm going to read in the other room. The other nights this week, I'd love to watch a show with you."

Whatever the response, don't JADE. Then on your scheduled night, stick to your plan. It might be that she's banging on the door or something. It may also be that to have any alone time, you need to go somewhere else like a coffee shop. Being in the same house may not be enough of a boundary.

I know no two people are alike, but once I learned to assume BPD mother sees things from victim perspective it helped with communication.

[waverider]

Its the message of needs  vs wants she is reacting to. She is hearing you want to read a book in preference to spending time with her.  Hence the messaging should be more on i want to do something with you after having some quite time you need.

EDIT: "Quite time you need" refers to OPs need not pwBPDs

[Notwendy]

I agree WW, that is, if she has indicated she wants some quiet time. If I make a suggestion to my BPD mother that she "needs" something, her response would be to feel invalidated and if I was ordering her around. "Don't you dare tell me what I need".

If there's something she likes to do and that can be arranged when you want your time, that might work.

Then it becomes "you deserve an evening all to yourself. I bought your
favorite ice cream and bath salts for you and purchased that movie on TV you wanted to see" ( and off you go)

[15years]

PeteWitsend
Don't worry about the "gray area" kinda stuff, where you start arguing with yourself mentally whether she's right and whether you spend enough time with her.

True, this is a great reminder. My own thoughts and feelings is a huge enemy in this.


kells76
"I'm beyond wiped out... I'm going to read my book tonight... Goodnight babe..."

I like this shorter version. With my wife, it's really crucial to not sound like a victim and especially not a victim to her! Additionally it does something for my self confidence too to not see myself like a victim.
I think this is what she calls "taking responsibility for oneself". She really hates this kind of weakness in others.

The "thinking past the sale" concept is a good point.

But what about her response after this? I would expect her to not really take it seriously and she would expect some minor manipulation to work. How do I go on from there?

Me: "I'm beyond wiped out... I'm going to read my book tonight... Goodnight babe..."
Her:
Me: eh...
Her: I want to hang out
Do I just repeat my first statement?


Cat Familiar
It may feel weird at first, but that’s because your reality has become so skewed living with a partner with a personality disorder for so many years.

Yes it feels weird, but I know it might take a surprisingly short time to break a habit. It's hard to know how off my reality is at this point. It's less skewed than earlier at least.


formflier
I would also trying adding in a future "together" idea.

Good idea. Just have to be careful so I don't sound and look nervous!

My sense is the "planning" will go well and then actual apart time...not so much.

I would expect this too because it has happened before. We have indeed talked about this exact issue and it has never been too dramatic at the planning stage. Last fall, I had decided I would start following 2 soccer games on tv per week, and I talked to her about it in advance. Well, she didn't agree but she didn't say "no" either. So I watched a game one night (saturday , I set the bar high), I had warned her about it but somehow she always seems to think "Yeeah, we'll see about that". This night in question I actually did watch the game, but with serious consequences the next day. And the soccer channel subscription is long since cancelled. She shows no shame for this because in her view it's unnecessary and silly to watch sports.

However, in the summer there was the Euro 2020 european soccer championship, and I was able to watch many of those games at home, maybe because she understood that it was restricted to a limited period of time (one month).


thankful person
It's interesting how well your changes has worked for you! Are you still pushing for more changes or are you satisfied for now? Are you scared of things getting worse again or is the change in yourself so strong that you don't fear small steps backwards?


waverider
She is hearing you want to read a book in preference to spending time with her.

True, I have to be careful not to give her that impression. It really seems to be a trust issue that she can't take my word for it instead of trusting her feelings.
 

fisher101
She'll probably get mad anyway so just do what you want to do.

This attitude is useful to avoid being fearful of the consequences.


Notwendy
IMHO, this whole sentence is JADE. You are already explaining/justifying why you want some time to yourself. You can simply want to read a book.

Great point, this is very relevant in my case. Sometimes I see major differences between the description of your mother and my wife but your comments about the wording in my original sentence is spot on how my wife would interpret it.

If there's something she likes to do and that can be arranged when you want your time, that might work.

This could also be an important step to break the habit of "us spending time together EVERY night".

Being in the same house may not be enough of a boundary."

You're absolutely right, this leads me to my final conclusion:


Conclusion:
Reading a book by myself at home during my wife's favorite part of the day might be too much of a challenge to begin with. Either I have to do something outside the home, or start with reading the book at some other time during the day. And from there I can start to increase the challenge a bit.

If we keep the book reading as the example:
1. Read a book at home whenever I have the oppurtunity. (this is where I'm at)
2. Ask for time to read the book in peace for a short time during the day. Say 20 minutes.
3. Increase to 30 minutes during the day.
4. Make the usual evening routine shorter, go to bed earlier than usual and read the book for 30 minutes.
5. Ask for the entire evening alone.

Could a few more steps be useful?



This community, having a team of experts offering support, validation and tailored solutions in real time, it's insane. I hope you get something out of this too! Thank you so much.

[Notwendy]

Reading a book by myself at home during my wife's favorite part of the day might be too much of a challenge to begin with.

This is a huge consideration and very important. Caving on a boundary teaches them that you won't follow through on what you say. It reinforces their behavior that leads to caving. It's best to start with things that you know you can uphold and go from there. So I commend you for this insight.

1. Read a book at home whenever I have the opportunity. (this is where I'm at)
2. Ask for time to read the book in peace for a short time during the day. Say 20 minutes. (DO NOT ASK)
3. Increase to 30 minutes during the day.
4. Make the usual evening routine shorter, go to bed earlier than usual and read the book for 30 minutes.
5. Ask for the entire evening alone.(DO NOT ASK)


Consider how you can fit in some time to yourself during the day, in our out of the house. It may need to begin out of the house. Just do it. Don't ask. Even if it's 5 minutes.

[PeteWitsend]

PeteWitsend
Don't worry about the "gray area" kinda stuff, where you start arguing with yourself mentally whether she's right and whether you spend enough time with her.

True, this is a great reminder. My own thoughts and feelings is a huge enemy in this.

From your statements here, it seems you've already allowed her to set the terms of the conversation & what is acceptable in the house.  So keep that in mind.  You're already starting off with terms stacked against you.  You need to start being cognizant of this; and don't feel like you can't address something or change something because you did it in the past.  Just do it and let her deal with her own disordered emotions; or if you need to, explain to her that you've been doing "X" or NOT doing "X" out of concern for her, and you're not going to go along with that anymore.  Then DO NOT keep arguing with her.  It's fine to say "I don't have anymore to add"

It's also fine to not to respond to everything.  "I already said what I have to say.  Not discussing this further."

You can "sugar coat" these things if you want... "honey, I already said what I have to say, and I'm tired and going to read my book.  We can talk about this later."   

[FirstSteps]

This whole conversation is so useful for me.

I am struggling in a similar way with setting these "transition" boundaries.  I understand I can't just change everything right away.  Yet it feels like I am reinforcing years and years worth of bad life framing by continuing to follow patterns that keep the peace or cater to her needs.

It's a tough one.  I'm also trying to figure out which of my boundaries are flexible and which are absolute.  Since I'm doing this in real time - and trying to deal with her in very good faith - I feel like I'm caving in left and right and signaling that my boundaries are always negotiable.

It was also a real insight on Notwendy's edits on what is JADE-ing and what is not.  I am realizing that I have not stopped JADE-ing nearly as much as I thought.  I'm also totally fuzzy on what is JADE-ing and what is stating my "truth" (after the empathy and validation) when I feel it's necessary. 

Our circular conversations are getting shorter.  And she is apologizing afterwards and validating me.  But I'm still in them for an hour when I want 20 minutes.  Is this great progress or am I still caught in the games?

[formflier]

Our circular conversations are getting shorter.  And she is apologizing afterwards and validating me.  But I'm still in them for an hour when I want 20 minutes.  Is this great progress or am I still caught in the games?

Hey...might want to start a new thread with some he said she said in your situation and I bet we can get your circular conversation down to around 5 minutes.  Interested?

This used to be something that would drive me bonkers...we would go over and over and over the exact same stuff, perhaps with slightly different wording.

Well...I tried to nibble away at it.  Reduce from 2 to 1 hour...that kind of thing.  Really didn't work.

Once I decided NO MORE CIRCULAR conversations...it became easier and clearer.  Now...by definition you have to "pass by" the info twice to have a circular conversation...so my "rule" is that if I got to 3 times I was mad at myself.

"Hey Babe, what new information do you want me to understand from what you just said?"

FFw  "blah blah (says exact same thing over) blah blah"

"Ok great...I understand what you are saying and need to give it some deep thought.  I'll be available to discuss more tomorrow at lunch."

Then move on...let them freak..be happy...be mad..whatever.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Our circular conversations are getting shorter.  And she is apologizing afterwards and validating me.  But I'm still in them for an hour when I want 20 minutes.  Is this great progress or am I still caught in the games?

This is progress. Consider that the two of you have been in these patterns for a long time. While you aren't happy with them, they are familiar and predictable. There's a sort of comfort in that. Sometimes it's two steps forward sometimes backwards. A difference is when you fall into that circular argument, you can now see it, and pull yourself out of it. So they get can shorter and less frequent. Eventually you will adjust to doing things differently but it's a work in progress. It's not about changing her or being critical of her. You see where these kinds of discussions just don't help and you both end up feeling badly afterwards, so you want to do something differently.

To 15years- it seems for a while, your wife has determined what is OK to watch, what isn't. What is OK to do, what isn't. You may have at this point lost track of what you like to do. It's possible that your first boundary step isn't time from her, but time with you- you doing something for yourself that you like. What does that mean? Is there a favorite food you like that she's decided can not be eaten in the house? Are there shows you like ( and not something really offensive to her,  but maybe a movie,  or some music you like. It might be that you take yourself to lunch and watch something on your phone. Something you like.

I recall this was something Thankful Person did- like wear a shirt her wife didn't like, or call her parents. Things she liked to do, but didn't do out of not wanting to upset her wife- and it turned out OK.

[thankful person]

thankful person
It's interesting how well your changes has worked for you! Are you still pushing for more changes or are you satisfied for now? Are you scared of things getting worse again or is the change in yourself so strong that you don't fear small steps backwards?

15 years, I  feel the same about these amazing people on here. I don’t have a therapist, but I almost feel like a therapist may not be able to understand and teach me as well as what I’ve learnt from the forum. I think those of us who end up as caretakers are darn special people actually, and you don’t seem to meet many in real life…
In answer to your questions… hmm it’s not so much pushing for more changes, but even up-keeping those I have made is a constant challenge and juggling act. To give some examples: I now have showers whenever I want and I also wear what I want. I don’t ask permission or even declare my intentions. I guess these things are like level 1 or something.
Other issues are more emotional and harder. Playing the piano has been massive for me. My wife is jealous that I can play the piano and doesn’t like me playing and has said she doesn’t want me to teach our children. My latest victory was when my toddler was playing piano and trying to sing ABC. So I quickly grabbed an opportunity, scooped her up into my lap and played and sang the ABC song to her. “That’s so unfair, I can’t play her anything or teach her anything!” said my wife. I didn’t say much. That was a massive accomplishment for me. And I haven’t touched the piano for a couple of weeks since. It’s like I have to give her space to process what just happened.
Phoning my parents.. I promised myself I would video call at least once a month. But I saw Mum in person with my older child on 31st March. Little ones birthday is 3rd May. So I haven’t got round to doing the April call. Part of it is being kind to myself. Acknowledging that I have achieved so much. And my wife has coped so well too. Oh and we’re having a birthday party with family on 8th May. So yeah I think I’ll let April go.
I have another MAJOR challenge up ahead. We are moving house soon hopefully, but will be in temporary accommodation for a few months. When we move I’m going to set up my piano studio in our home. We have a beautiful new upright acoustic piano. I paid for it on my credit card. But my wife wants it to be a family piano (even though I’m not allowed to teach the kids right). But she wants my students learning on the inferior digital piano. I have not tackled this issue yet. I feel like I don’t dare. I have a while to figure it out. But apart from not seeing family as much as I’d like, I am fairly happy with how things are now.
So yeah, it’s not so much like I’m worried about things getting worse again, but more just that I have an awareness that I have to keep working on tackling these issues. But it does seem the more I do things, the less my wife is upset by it as she gets used to the new normal (depending on the particular issue).
I posted early on like last summer, about her flipping out about me reading a work text on a Sunday and then looking at my diary, and she forbid me from responding. I didn’t know what to do about it. I remember saying, “I’ve read stop walking on egg shells but I don’t know how to”. Well anyway just wanted to say, sometimes I still get work texts on Sundays. And these days I look at them, look at my diary, respond to them, if I feel like it. Sometimes I mention it, sometimes I don’t. But the egg shells are bothering me a lot less these days.

[15years]

Over time I have pushed more and more of my personal life into my 8 hour workdays. I have never stopped listening to whatever music I want to, but I have avoided some music at home, to avoid tension. She hasn't really forbidden me to listen to any music, but that is now about to change I think. Since she has decided she's not going to be a doormat and let her self be disrespected .

My challenge is to increase my personal space at home, but maybe now is not the time to openly listen to sex positive music at home just to prove a point (for example I'll avoid Ariana Grande's "34+35"). One idea I had two weeks ago was to plan one thing that I want to do for myself over the weekend. So I might decide that next weekend I will go for a 30 min tour with my bike, and stick to that plan with confidence. Last weekend my plan was to make home made tortilla bread because somehow I found that exciting. I did and she liked it. So it doesn't have to be anything that I think she would dislike, it can be anything as long as it's my idea.

This weekend was a success for my own personal sense of independence, I actually didn't wait for the weekend to end.

[FirstSteps]

thankfulperson and 15 years - congratulations to both on those changes!  I very much relate to how hard they are.

I struggle with not making things a structural conversation and just sticking to the activity and the concrete change.  It's hard because my wife is always asking me what I want and need (though I will never get what I answer so I have learned to be vague). 

I'm also realizing that I'm not super happy after I get that one new thing done.  I want more.  This seems healthy but it's not helping me cope with the slow pace.  I'm also getting huge blowback, which we all know is hard to take. 

I can't tell if I should be focusing on managing my anxiety for once and letting this play out with my new boundaries.  Or if I'm in some end game.  I was reading a journal I started in February to track this, and, wow, is it chaotic.  On the other hand, I've broken some long standing behavior patterns. 

[thankful person]

Over time I have pushed more and more of my personal life into my 8 hour workdays. I have never stopped listening to whatever music I want to, but I have avoided some music at home, to avoid tension. She hasn't really forbidden me to listen to any music, but that is now about to change I think. Since she has decided she's not going to be a doormat and let her self be disrespected .

My challenge is to increase my personal space at home, but maybe now is not the time to openly listen to sex positive music at home just to prove a point (for example I'll avoid Ariana Grande's "34+35"). One idea I had two weeks ago was to plan one thing that I want to do for myself over the weekend. So I might decide that next weekend I will go for a 30 min tour with my bike, and stick to that plan with confidence. Last weekend my plan was to make home made tortilla bread because somehow I found that exciting. I did and she liked it. So it doesn't have to be anything that I think she would dislike, it can be anything as long as it's my idea.

This weekend was a success for my own personal sense of independence, I actually didn't wait for the weekend to end.

All sounds good, this is exactly what I did with regards to setting small goals for myself, “taking the power back”. It sounds sad but I felt so excited to learn that actually my life is mine to do what I want. Sometimes I had to change or cancel my plans if it seemed it might be too stressful for me or my wife. Interestingly, when my wife was in a good mood, she became quite receptive to the changes. For example, after years of saying she didn’t want me playing the piano for pleasure, she started suggesting I play, or requesting songs. I had to watch this a bit… FF warned me against making assumptions about her behaviour but it seemed to me that she wanted to still control me, so once I had announced I would be playing the piano again, she liked to choose when and what I played. She even bought me a book of piano music for a Christmas gift! So I try to stay true to still sometimes just sitting at the piano and playing, without asking if it’a a good time, or what she might like to hear…

[thankful person]

thankfulperson and 15 years - congratulations to both on those changes!  I very much relate to how hard they are.

I struggle with not making things a structural conversation and just sticking to the activity and the concrete change.  It's hard because my wife is always asking me what I want and need (though I will never get what I answer so I have learned to be vague). 

I'm also realizing that I'm not super happy after I get that one new thing done.  I want more.  This seems healthy but it's not helping me cope with the slow pace.  I'm also getting huge blowback, which we all know is hard to take. 

I can't tell if I should be focusing on managing my anxiety for once and letting this play out with my new boundaries.  Or if I'm in some end game.  I was reading a journal I started in February to track this, and, wow, is it chaotic.  On the other hand, I've broken some long standing behavior patterns. 

First steps it certainly sounds like you’ve made and are making process too. I totally relate to your frustrations. It has not been plain sailing here either and I did get very impatient and like you say, wanted more. I posted on here about everything I’d given up for her, and then my goals, which was basically about getting much of those things back. I’m still not quite there yet. But to sit and play the piano with my daughter on my lap is actually a dream come true for me and I never thought my wife would allow it. She would have physically removed the child if she didn’t like it, as she did once when I was reading to her. Whilst I’d like to do it every day, I am still too nervous of my wife’s reaction. But I remind myself of how far I’ve come. And that my children are going to have a much better childhood than they would have had with the old me in attendance.

[FirstSteps]

thankfulperson - they absolutely are!  Those moments are so important and will ground your children in a really healthy way.  It's good reinforcement to keep plugging away. Thank you.