So lost

[Kelly2022]

Feeling completely lost, hopeless and unmotivated. I have been in a 5 year relationship which seems to have ended after many breakup cycles. There were unprovoked mood changes, splitting, irritation when things didn't go according to plan, periods of love bombing, controlling behaviour of looking at my texts or constant phone calles checking where I was, accusations I was with someone, rage when I tried to explain I meant no harm nor was doing what he thought, blatant lying, hidden liquor dependency which I only discovered later, and cheating. He has no friends and can't seem to sustain any relationship without eventually feeling betrayed by them. He'd often see rejection where there was none at all and would react in ways that would baffle friends or coworkers. He then seemed confused why people would hold on to those memories, keep distant, not invite him to things and not get past it as he had. He was used to his mood changes and expected everyone else to keep up with those moods at the same pace. To the point that he expected me to get over the cheating after a very short period, couldn't comprehend why I had trust issues still, even after the 4th time he was caught. He is so articulate and well versed and perceptive of other people or film characters etc but seems unable to apply empathy in many situations. When I needed support or a "shoulder to cry on" he would say a few words of comfort and then turn the focus to him or something that was bothering him. When I couldn't comfort him in that moment because I was upset over my situation he'd become angry. He had what seemed like a compulsion towards online dating, or reaching out to exes. I caught him sexting, reaching out to an ex, and asking someone we had both met out. He said it meant nothing and that he did it out of a need for validation when I wasn't around. He seemed to be unable to be alone at all. The way he sees others is as always acting with ulterior motives and doesn't trust anyone. His teenage children are blindly obedient to him which he prides himself on and criticizes mine for occasionally challenging me or pushing back, for acting like teenagers. The attempt at a blended family went horribly wrong, three years into the relationship we had to break it off and I separated him from my kids but continued to see him outside of the home when we reconciled. They were cycles, oftentimes short breakups of a few weeks or less, sometimes lasting months. He made me feel I was the only one in his life to understand, and I felt very responsible for him. I don't agree with his behaviour, but I understand because my father was similarly codependent and moody. I've been in therapy in an effort to understand my part and have been made aware that my mother exhibits covert narcissism, which completely blindsided me as I saw our closeness as her effort to save or protect me from my dad growing up. And I have felt responsible for her wellbeing and loneliness and a lot of guilt at the thought of not filling her every need, even to this day. So I see the connection to this relationship and the reason why it is so difficult to leave (mentally, even when you've left physically). As I have been trying to break the codependency my mother has developed a tighter bond with my daughter oftentimes throwing in snide comments about me or her dad, oftentimes being cruel. She's become very angry. It's a triangulation that sometimes feels impossible for me to live with. I put in so much to raise these kids and pushed them to have a relationship with their grandmother, only to have my daughter doubt my intentions because of what she's told. It's painful.
So this is where I'm at. Raising two teenagers on my own, my mother interfering in my parenting choices to strengthen her bond with my daughter, (her grandson is for the most part ignored) her talking to everyone we know about how difficult her life is because of me, how her health is declining because of me, and me fighting the urge to run to my ex to beat the loneliness. My friends are wonderful but I think they are sick of hearing about my attempts to leave him for years now. They don't get it. And I still really don't. If I now understand the links to my childhood and what's toxic and what isn't, then why can't I break free? I miss him and feel a great sense of loss. Loss of a partner, of what I thought we were building together, loss of children as they grow more independent, loss of a mother I thought was my whole life, loss of my physical health as I'm diagnosed with more conditions and an overall loss of direction. That last one is crippling. I'm trying, but sometimes I no longer see the point to anything.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I hear you Kelly2022.

I am currently going through a rough patch as well, and as such, I don't have many words for you, others than I hear you, and I get you.

There is another board for BPD parents, but I'd say this encompasses covert narcissism, as they exhibit similar symptoms.

If you want to talk more about your relationship with your mother (I am under the impression that your choice for a partner stems from it? I know mine certainly did...), there is a lot of wise and knowledgeable people following that board too.

For now, a simple wisdom piece, that is yet so hard to live by: it is better to be alone, than being with the wrong person. Stay strong. When we embark on our healing journey, when we are self-aware, there is bound to be some moments when we struggle to keep our head above the water, but much peace awaits us, as we slowly heal, embrace those turmoils, process them and change for the better.

Did you lower contact with your mother? How old is your teenage daughter? Is she aware her grandmother likely has a personnality disorder?

I don't want to add to your plate, but I would make sure she knows, if only to prevent you the heartache of having your mother create a wedge between your daughter and you. This is the kind of things my mother did to my nephew with his own mother. She paints her as a bad mother, once even told my nephew his parents loved him less than his sister, but that she would always be there for him. You see the kind of ripples this talk had on my nephew, the doubts it brought. They just can't keep themselves from creating those kind of wedges, it gives them the illusion of control.

Also, I am sorry for your health issues.

What do you enjoy doing for yourself, as self-care? I am prescribing self-care to you. Right now, as the exhaustion kicks in, you need to allow yourself some much needed self-care.

[khibomsis]

Welcome Kelly! So sorry for the hard times which brought you here, but glad you found us.
Riverwolf has some great advice. I guess the only thing I would add is: be very careful how much stress you put yourself under because it will affect your health. The list of physical diseases which are worsened by stress is long, and also deep trauma has been shown to store in the body. So really, self care can save your  life and health at this moment.
It is often said on these boards that all roads lead to the Parent and Sibling board. For myself I stayed in abusive marriages because my uNBPD mom had made me so used to it, it took A LOT for me to even notice it was abuse. So I had to sort out my issues with her before I could even think of a healthy relationship.

What are you going to do for you today?  

[Kelly2022]

Hi Khibomsis and Riv3rWOlf, thank you for your guidance. My health was already affected at the age of 24, got severe rheumatoid arthritis, had breast cancer 3 years ago and many other related illnesses. I'm on meds and lead a healthy lifestyle and am trying to stay on top of it all. But these days I'm not very well emotionally, it feels like it's all come crashing down. I just realized a few months ago of what my mom was doing and why I've had this sense of dissonance and underlying hopelessness. I was spending a lot of time with her, she expected me to be there for her 4-5 hours a day 3-4 times a week. When I scaled back at the suggestion of my therapist, my mom reacted. She felt rejected and I felt guilty. But I've never been able to have much of a life of my own without constantly thinking of what she needed nor to make any decision without consulting her. When I started making them she became angry and accused me of excluding her. She blamed my ex and my therapist and began smearing me to my daughter in very subtle ways. She's way more covert than most narcissists as she comes across to people as selfless and generous and everyone loves and admires her. As I write this I can hear her criticism in my head, that I'm jealous, too sensitive, crazy, hormone imbalanced, victim mentality, etc. My dad was so overt that I honestly didn't see how she could be as well, since they were so different. I saw her as a victim all my life, someone in need of protection, the way she chose to be seen. I held on to my ex for dear life because he provided an out from her. She told me at one point I had to choose between her and him and then went around telling everyone that I had said that instead of her. My ex provided a shoulder to cry on, support and was very articulate and often knew what to say. But he would often switch and suddenly get mean or irritated. He sent me one of his many goodbye texts the other day and once again I'm on the rollercoaster downwards. We had been speaking and occasionally meeting (it's nice to see his kids) but I never let us get beyond a hug and of course it gets to the point where he pulls away after creating conflict. I don't trust him but still feel sad for him and feel as if I understand him or somehow relate. I realize it's been 3 years of this half assed breaking up and need to stop the cycles. I feel completely alone in life and don't know how to move forward. I was left in boarding schools at the age of a week, and at the age of 3 so I think there is definitely something that gets triggered regarding feeling completely alone. I am angry at my mom for an entire life that could have been so different. And once again I hear so many people's voices in the back of my mind saying get over it, you're blaming others, you're using excuses as a crutch, everyone has been through things, etc. She would be the first one saying this.

[Kelly2022]

To answer your questions, my daughter is 15 but it feels wrong to tell her anything negative about my mom, she will tell her and it will backfire. They will see me as the one trash talking and my mom will use it. Not sure what to do there.
As for better being alone, it feels heartbreaking to be on my own, and it honestly feels better to be with someone who is often kind to me in spite of the moments of abuse. It feels better to be around a bpd who recognizes his flaws than to be around someone who doesn't see her own behaviour and blames me 100% of the time. 
I know how crazy this all sounds, and am breaking the cycle using, not my heart, but logic.

As for doing something for me, I guess that's the reason I'm here. I'm a big doer and constantly active but I cant seem to get the motivation to work on much. I feel paralyzed and mostly numb and sad. Self care doesn't seem to make me feel better because of the overwhelming feeling of being alone and not having an adult to do this for. I'm a good parent and getting things done for the kids but everything else feels pointless.

[Kelly2022]

And lastly, I feel terrible to put all this out there. It's yet something else that is negative and I don't want it to affect others or have it spread. We need the opposite in the world these days so I'm sorry. I know you're here because you're going through things too.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Kelly2022...

There is so much to unfold in what your wrote... I hear your pain and your loneliness, and I do understand it. I recently wrote a post myself about feeling lonely on my marriage. I also chose a man who could be kind and supportive, but who is mostly angry and impatient. I don't think he is BPD though, but definitely has an emotional development arrest...

I have started therapy recently and was proposed schema therapy, which I will request to officially try at my next appointment... Have you heard of it? I found a lot of answers in there, about me, about me choices, about my husband. I recommend looking into it... The book "Reinventing your life" by Young might provide some answers and solutions...

I read you gaslighting yourself... When you say : "others have been through things too and I need to get over myself". I told myself this exact same sentence many many times, because this was the way my mother would invalidate me. She had been through so much worst than I, everything was always worst for her, she was the highest victim and I needed to be strong and parent her... Now that I am parent myself, I can see just how very wrong this is... The pain of others DOES NOT, in no way, means you have to quiet yours. And above all: it does not excuse the emotional abuse of children.

There is a lot of pain in the world, but I kindly disagree when you say people don't need more of it... With show of vulnerability and pain, something good comes out : empathy, like minded souls getting together to validate each other and push through.

I hear you Kelly2022, and I see you, and I might just be an internet stranger, but I get you, and I support you wholeheartedly. And now you need to support yourself and little Kelly2022 by giving her a big hug and crying for her. You have a right to your feelings. You have a right to your depression, and especially to your anger.

Anger is assertion, anger is powerful. Recognize it in yourself and welcome it whole, for within this anger, you might find solace.

It feels wrong, we feel guilty for all this anger, I know... But it is your anger, and it is there to PROTECT you.

You were a victim in all this. You were abandoned, left to yourself, robbed and used up, leaving you feeling lonely, worthless and depressed. But the truth is: you survived. Which makes you a strong, empathetic person. A kind and gentle soul who is self-aware and resilient. You have been through so much, and it is ok to be tired. I understand. Sometimes, I also get exhausted beyond words... It is depression. And it is ok. You are not broken. It is ok to feel depressed.

Your daughter is your daughter... I am saddened for you and angry at your mother to read you feel this way, that she would go back to your mother with the information... It is as if you are already aware your mother created a wedge... That her relationship with your daughter is strong enough to triangulate your daughter against you now... But I sincerely doubt it. Maybe your daughter will surprise you. And you would be protecting her by telling her the truth. It has to come from a place of love for your daughter.

I read you, and I feel like you are giving up on yourself, like your mother gave up on you a long time ago... Please don't. Connect to your anger if you can, feel all this energy. Anger is assertion, anger is protection. You have a right to protect yourself. You have a right to protect your relationship with your daughter.

What you wrote about your mother, I could have written it about mine. I understand so very much and I am here for you. You are not alone.

[Kelly2022]

Thank you from the bottom of my heart Riv3rWOlf for taking the time to write to a complete stranger about such difficult topics. You are so kind. I haven't heard of schema therapy, I will look into it. I'm sorry to hear about your (ex?) husband. I know the daily grief and sense of loss of being lonely in a marriage. I was married to a man with very controlled anger, eventually cold, very sarcastic, dismissive and always critical in his humour. He is generally loud, entertaining, and acts superior and proud of his lack of emotion. Because my bpd ex was so different from my ex-husband and so overly emotional and often loving I didn't think the relationship would turn out to be toxic. And when I did realize something was off it took me a lot of questioning and research to pinpoint what was going on. I wanted to fix him and tried in so many ways. He would thank me but then would drink or smoke in secret or sext others, pretend to go to therapy, just develop a double life. If they don't want to change, they won't. I have stumbled from relationship to relationship not realizing what was toxic and what wasn't. I feel like it's so late to start over.
As for my daughter she has already bonded strongly with my mom, partly because I've raised her to do so thinking my mom was a good thing for all of us. Now it's too late. How do you even explain that you didn't see any of it until now, that a veil has been lifted and so much good that you've said of your mother wasn't authentic? How do you explain that to a teenager who has learned to confide in her grandmother with the support of her own mother. It's completely crazy that I haven't seen any of it until now. I felt I was doing good tending to my mom's needs until I suddenly became the bad guy in a triangle and I began to realize what had happened. Like yourself, my mom went through far worse in some ways, in her childhood. And the empathy for her in those circumstances is also what always fueled me to want to help. The constant stories of how bad she had it silenced my own. You're right about anger. I feel it at my mother which I never really did in the past. I don't feel it enough for my ex and still have to work on all the empathy I feel towards him that's not allowing me to move forward. I should be angry about all the cheating and lying and that my kids got caught in the middle of it and their childhood was affected. That yet another man in their lives let them down. That I let them down because I haven't known which way is up.
Thank you for being there and for making it feel ok to talk about.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I was married to a man with very controlled anger, eventually cold, very sarcastic, dismissive and always critical in his humour. He is generally loud, entertaining, and acts superior and proud of his lack of emotion.

It sounds like you and I chose similar men to marry. A result of how we were abused as children, I believe.

As for my daughter she has already bonded strongly with my mom, partly because I've raised her to do so thinking my mom was a good thing for all of us. Now it's too late. How do you even explain that you didn't see any of it until now, that a veil has been lifted and so much good that you've said of your mother wasn't authentic?

By telling he truth: we don't know what we don't know... life is about remaining flexible, continuing to learn and to better ourselves... Which is what you are doing. Your 15 years old should know and see that before she becomes completely enmeshed with her grandmother, who, in the end, will abuse her like she abused you. But you daughter can't know what she doesn't know either... someone needs to guide her through...

I understand your fear... But what is the absolute worst that could happen? Say it backfires and your daughter goes back to your mother and tell her what you said ... What is the absolute worst that could happen then?

How do you explain that to a teenager who has learned to confide in her grandmother with the support of her own mother. It's completely crazy that I haven't seen any of it until now. I felt I was doing good tending to my mom's needs until I suddenly became the bad guy in a triangle and I began to realize what had happened.

How is your relationship with your daughter? Do you feel your mother is closer to her than you are?

That I let them down because I haven't known which way is up.

Don't beat yourself down... No guilt, only self-compassion right now. You couldn't know what you didn't know, again. Life is about remaining flexible. It is a journey... Be kind to yourself. You are here, aren't you? Bettering yourself, in therapy and through raising self-awareness. You are already setting a good example for your children...

You won't be perfect, and it's ok. As parent, we only need to be good enough.

[Kelly2022]

Got through the day yesterday, I've been totally unproductive since the last break up. You would think I was used to it, there have been so many "that's it I'm done"s and goodbyes in cycles, and going through old texts I realize these cycles have been going on for at least 3 years. We go no contact and I grieve deeply believing it's over and it feels like the world is caving in and just when I start feeling better and stronger he comes back with a text, a few words, and we start communicating and start getting closer again. Days, weeks sometimes months later. Since the cheating, I've kept the "getting closer" to platonic in an effort to protect myself, thinking if I don't get too close I won't get my heart broken again.  If we can somehow remain "friends" what can be the harm. But I do get hurt. As if it's a new hurt each time. The texting throughout the day, the having someone there to comment or share little things with is what I end up missing so much and it's hard to believe that I am once again grieving as if I had lost a completely committed relationship. 

This time he said it was time to let me go to find other people and that he was going to as well so I think this time might be permanent. He said he was off to find a person who sees his worth, who wants him, not a version of him. I have never had a relationship that I couldn't let go of at some point. It's like I've lost all control of being the one to end it and am waiting to see what he does next.. like a child. It's such a different experience from the break up with my ex husband in which I felt relief and felt like I had done my entire grieving during the relationship and had no more tears to cry and at the end I felt lighter and healthier. The difference was my ex husband was constant, there was a progressive decline in our relationship and I knew what to expect the next day. With bpd they're all over the map. They can be so incredibly loving and joyful at any moment, no matter how broken down the relationship might be that it's a completely different thing altogether. They are cycles that get you hooked, as if you're waiting for that hand to pull you out of your grief again and join them in their happy, trusting, loving phase. The love bombing as they say. There's a certain rhythm and inertia that makes it incredibly difficult to detach from if you've grown up with parents that have lived in those extremes. And part of the difficulty with detaching from a bpd is that they attune to your needs to such an extent, what you want to hear, how you want to be treated and loved and they do it so well with this capacity to study and understand the other person, it's uncanny. No one else comes close to understanding or maybe mirroring you in the ways that they do. And appreciating you and everything good is their life, and doing good. You finally feel seen and you have the illusion of safety and care. They have difficulty regulating and perceiving their world, co workers, neighbours etc and come to you to confide, and only you. He has no other close friends so you feel indispensable and "on call" a bit . And then the switch will happen over something small that triggers him and he stops trusting you and doesn't see you anymore. And you literally feel homeless.
There is a strong feeling of family to this relationship, of your "person" as they say, and because you have felt seen and accepted so profoundly during the good phases that no friendship support, no matter how close, seems to alleviate the sadness of losing them. And there is trauma. Trauma of the dissonance you have felt, of discovering the infidelities, of being rejected so many times, of the constant switches, of being triggered merely by the places any of this took place in, of the collateral illnesses and of course trauma from childhood that gets rolled forward all over again. It's a trauma of not having any control over the outcome and not knowing when he would switch. To top it all off there is an unhealthy bond that occurs from the trauma we have both lived through and dealt with together, and for the pain we both have individually, from our pasts.

As I would think many partners of bpd have, there is also the trauma of having to relive your past family dynamic with your parents simply by your need to take care of them in their old age. Especially if you have no siblings. They become more unfiltered and it becomes almost like watching your childhood the way it really happened, with the sentiments that were brewing under the surface now plain open to see. And finally the trauma of having your own child use the same phrases against you as your parent does, with the same language, peppered by such lovely compliments that the child is unable to see what is happening. She fooled me for 50 years. How could she not fool a teenager. She uses charm, puts on a manically happy persona for her, supportive of anything she wants (but not behind her back), uses money, and reassures her that she is special to the point of being above others. There is trauma in losing your child this way. And hearing from your mother that I'm losing my child to no one's fault but my own. And that my father was right about me all along. I wont get into what he was like.

So here it is. What life with a bpd partner is like. The why's, the connections, and my part in it.

[Kelly2022]

So yesterday I read the do's and dont's of communicating with someone with bpd and I realize I did the opposite of what you're supposed to do, which is not to justify, defend or explain etc. but to validate with sympathy and empathy. I felt regret at the thought of things possibly having turned out differently had I communicated in these ways from the start. I think if I had known it was a disorder he'd been dealing with I would have approached it differently from the start and not have tried to make him see things my way.
So then I caved and sent him a message apologizing for my part in things, and for not having validated him. His lack of any response has left me feeling worse, weak with now the guilt of not having reacted differently during our relationship. Almost like the lack of response on his part has turned the tables and has made him the mature, stable one and I feel like the one spiralling all of a sudden. I think a depression is hitting me hard and hope it will pass.

[drumdog4M]

I understand exactly how you are feeling. The withdrawal / silent treatment is a brutal weapon in their arsenal to turn the tables on we vulnerable people who love them. He might take a while to respond or not at all. I wrote my pw-BPD a long letter with a lot of emotion shortly after breakup. I later learned she never even readout because she was afraid it would have been "too painful."

If you have not read it already, I'd strongly suggest reading or better yet getting the Audible version of "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist." It might help clarify things for you further and help understand your own susceptibility to and role in the relationship.

Please hang in there. We are here for you.

[Kelly2022]

Thank you! I'll check out the book.

[2020]

Hi Kelly2022. I wouldn’t go having regrets about not reading the books and doing the wrong thing when you thought you were helping. I did and said the ‘wrong’ things too. I downloaded and read several books in an effort to improve our relationship, but it didn’t help. People with this disorder are not stupid. They will cotton on to you. When I implemented a technique to defuse a potential dysregulation, I was accused of being ‘passive/aggressive’. I am beginning to wonder if walking on eggshells is as good an approach as any.

I bought books for both of us too, and also just for my partner. Imi Lo’s, Emotional Sensitivity and Intensity was a good one. My partner actually read it. She said she was touched that I bought it for her. She said she liked it. Then a month or two later, she tore it in two with her bare hands.

This is a very difficult disorder to navigate. The outlook is not that great. Even trained professionals have limited success it seems. What chance do we have? If our loved ones won’t or can’t do the work, then it is futile wearing ourselves out trying to help them. Don’t be too hard on yourself. You did the best you could!

[drumdog4M]

I echo the sentiments of 2020. The one book I read too late that actually seemed promising in terms of effective communication in a borderline marriage was "The High-Conflict Couple" by Alan Fruzzetti. It's brilliant, but I think the approach likely would need to be facilitated with an extremely skilled therapist to work. Watching him train therapists in the method on Youtube, however, was pretty amazing.

[2020]

Yes. The High Conflict Couple. It is a good book. I bought it and took it camping with us. I read from it one night and she seemed to be receptive of its content. Unfortunately we never sat down and worked through it beyond that. Perhaps it would have helped?

[drumdog4M]

Theoretically, maybe. But I think the challenge is getting the pw-BPD to read it, learn the skills, and practicing them. If they'd already done DBT, it would be easier. My thought is that one really needs a skilled therapist in the method that can facilitate its use. We became so triggering to our ex-pwBPD that it might be hard for them to accept some of the challenging communications that must occur.

If you're interested, watch some of Fruzzetti's videos, and you will see what I mean. I don't think a partner can do what the therapist does to help hold the pw-BPD to some form of accountability.

I personally do not think any other type of couples counseling is likely to help a borderline relationship. The Gottman method actually triggered my ex after two sessions and led to her discarding me (during that cycle).

[Kelly2022]

The loneliness and panic was too much and I caved. We are back in contact and it felt wonderful when I saw him but now I feel the shame of having done this and can't even tell my closest friends anymore. I feel a whole other lack of direction. In the 5 years I have known him I have asked him to go to therapy and enrol in a dbt group program. The therapist took the approach of trying to boost his self esteem which was great but according to my ex, was given the advice to seek out other women. I can't imagine a therapist giving that advice, he may have advised to make friends and my ex took his own interpretation. So therapy didn't help much. He had been in and out of therapists in his life from what I gather, but never following through for very long. The dbt program he found fault with, saying the others in the group were completely unbalanced, the main one being the facilitator. He took a few elements from it, the radical acceptance, and didn't do much with the rest. He completed the first part of the program but didn't continue.
Couples therapy, which we've never done (other than two attempts two initial visits in which he felt attacked) crossed my mind to alleviate the issues when we communicate, thinking it may also help us both individually whether we're together or apart, but then I wonder what for, I know I can't build a life with this man, certainly not in the near future as things are. It isn't only signing up to mood changes and episodes of distorted thinking which are difficult on their own, it's signing up to being cheated on in my case, of having him walk away when I need him in the future when I least expect conflict to occur. The instability makes him impossible to rely on. Add to that the fact that my children will not be in the same room with him, feel too betrayed by him,  and I see a future in which my home will not feel welcome to them, and it will be a mess if there are grandchildren etc. It will be so much to sacrifice. Feeling lost with and without him or most of all weak. I know what I should do and I can't seem to. It feels like I've lost my whole world when we pull away.

[Riv3rW0lf]

There is not much use in hammering your own head with the decision you took to go back, nor to feel guilty about it. This is just abusing yourself by being harshly critical of your needs and decision. Don't do that... Self compassion and understanding only...

If you went back to him, then it just means you needed to, and it is ok. The question is why do you need it so? Why do you feel so weak without him?

Do part of you maybe enjoy the thrills of being around him? The adrenaline and endorphine boosts of the fights? Part of me liked that with my mother...

Do part of you maybe fear being alone? Like life lost its sense? Maybe you need to meet yourself, learn to take care of yourself instead of taking care of someone else all the time...

What I am coming at is: maybe there are parts of you you are not aware of that are finding it useful to be around him. He feels a hole somewhere within you. But until you can find and fill that hole yourself, you will keep on being drawn to him or men like him.

You will not change him, this is not within your power. You can only change yourself.

[Kelly2022]

Thank you for your support it means a lot during this time.
Riv3rWolf I can see how cathartic it could feel to fight and let it out and assert yourself to feel you’re affecting the one person who has so much affected you. In my case I don’t need to anymore, and don’t enjoy the conflict or the need to continue the conflict I grew up with. The knowledge of where my partner choices comes from is mostly all there thanks to individual therapy. In spite of this knowledge I can’t pull away completely. My parents both narcissists in their own ways, my dad overt, I grew up an only child, not allowed friends, nor to finish a grade before being moved schools, put in boarding schools at 3, then going with them to their work and being silently by their side 24/7 over the years not asked much nor welcoming much input from me. I buried myself with books and art and studying. There was triangulation with my mom as being my whole world, feeling protected from my dad. I was used for emotional support to bear my moms complaints of my dad. The codependence has been strong until I realized this year how dysfunctional it all was and how my life was shaped by it. I did take care of everyone and when I wasn’t needed I was waiting to be needed. Part of me feels stronger with the new perspective and part of me weaker with my supports now gone. And that last part makes it feel impossible to let him go.

[Kelly2022]

Feeling sad after spending the afternoon with my mom. We started chatting about a friend of mine and how frustrated she must feel at having to hide so many aspects of her life to maintain a relationship with them. To live in the closet so to speak. She expressed a different opinion, that of having a duty as a daughter to hide aspects that are different from your parents, to pretend, so as to not lose them. I told her that I thought it was important to feel accepted for who you are to feel loved unconditionally and that the thought of rejecting a child for different beliefs was sad to me and not right. She viewed it as the daughter's actions rejecting the parent. She blamed our difference of opinions on North American culture and the mistake of having brought me here. I told her that love is universal and generations are usually different from their parents no matter where you go. She then said unconditional love does not exist. The phone rang and the conversation thankfully got rerouted. A two minute conversation that was loaded with our dynamics. I am triggered by having lived a life of being someone else to make them happy. And in the end it didn't. But also distressed that I am surrounded by people that agree with her. I guess this post belongs in the parent section, but these chats make me feel like reaching out more to my ex, it doesn't make much sense, but maybe some of you might have had similar dynamics and ended up with bpd partners. Maybe it's the disconnection that I feel and my ex is a replacement figure?

[Kelly2022]

Feeling sad after spending the afternoon with my mom. We started chatting about a friend of mine and how frustrated she must feel at having to hide so many aspects of her life from her parents to maintain a relationship with them. To live in the closet so to speak. My mom expressed a different opinion, that of having a duty as a daughter to hide aspects that are different from your parents, to pretend, so as to not lose them. I told her that I thought it was important to feel accepted for who you are to feel loved unconditionally and that the thought of rejecting a child for different beliefs was sad to me and not right. She viewed it as the daughter's actions rejecting the parent. She blamed our difference of opinions on North American culture and the mistake of having brought me here. I told her that love is universal and generations are usually different from their parents no matter where you go. She then said unconditional love does not exist. The phone rang and the conversation thankfully got rerouted. A two minute conversation that was loaded with our dynamics. I am triggered by having lived a life of being someone else to make them happy. And in the end it didn't. But also distressed that I am surrounded by people that agree with her. I guess this post belongs in the parent section, but these chats make me feel like reaching out more to my ex, it doesn't make much sense, but maybe some of you might have had similar dynamics and ended up with bpd or narc partners. Maybe it's the disconnection that I feel and my ex is a replacement figure?

[Kelly2022]

x

[Kelly2022]

So here’s what I’m wondering. If an undiagnosed bpd faces the same conflict with all his relationships throughout his life, co workers, friends and neighbours, by the time you’re older why don’t they consider therapy? My ex has gone to therapy only enough to say he’s been but hasn’t followed through for more than a few months. Do they just believe it won’t work? He has said  he has emotional disregulation and often sees conflict where there isn’t any so why wouldn’t he want to put all his effort on tackling that? He has also said he wants someone to accept him for who he is, I’m guessing the radical acceptance, but how can he find that if it involves lying, cheating?

[Riv3rW0lf]

I opened the subject of therapy with my mother, and her reaction is always one of fear.

She is deeply scared of therapy, of looking within and of having someone witness who she truly is. I think she is also scared of her own pain and hurt, and the emotional distress therapy might bring in, and above all : she refuses to take responsibility for her actions and emotions, because the shame it brings, the shame she would have to face is just too intense for her. That's what I got from her response anyway.

It is just much easier for her to blame everyone else than to own her actions. She loves victim perspective, and therapy has a way to force you to realize you are your own victim and no one else can be blamed. The only real victims are children. Adults are always free to change their ways once they take responsibility for themselves.

My mother with BPD can't bear to accept responsibility for herself. She is a victim of everyone else, which keeps her from having to face her own shame.

[Kelly2022]

Riv3rWolf, I just saw your message. Since I have two threads going I was checking the other and forgot about this one.
Did you make any progress with the idea of therapy for your mom? Would it be easier for the three of you to go or just her? I've been watching Dr. Ramani's many videos which I have found very helpful. I've contemplated therapy but realized that it would just prolong a toxic situation that I have a choice of leaving. As for my mom, it would just be too much to unpack for her at her age. Each case is different and only you can gage how open she is to self reflection and true desire to take that on and the idea of change. It's going to be hard to have that hope for you rather than operating from acceptance that she might not change.

And I should mention, that the reason I haven't checked this thread has been that it's a relationship thread and I have gone no contact with my ex and unlike other times have reached a state of complete indifference towards him. Feels so strange, as if he has suddenly been pushed way back in my history, as if a year had gone by since I last interacted with him. I bumped into him last week and felt nothing. I don't know if this feeling will stay but it sure feels like a relief. Not caring if I see him again, if he's with someone and so on. And genuinely wishing him well, hoping in spite of it all that he finds peace soon. I'm not feeling the panic I used to feel during the discards and no need to rush out and date. I've began working on my dreams, and just focusing on my narc mom and how to move forward with greyrocking her etc.
Could it be that I've reached the end of him in my life after 5 years?
 

[Kelly2022]

So tonight I had made  plans to meet some good friends and see a jazz band. Tonight would've marked 5 years with my ex. But really it was more like 5 on and off years of crazy cycles, apologies, declarations, accusations, silence, etc. I've caught a bad flu the past few days and stayed home on my own. In honour of this relationship I flipped through some old texts and read a few parts, the conflict was easy to find wherever you landed. I put the phone away and thought of dr. Ramani's saying that feeling alone was better than what would likely be happening if we were still together, a night of arguments. And then I caught myself. As crazy as it sounds I said to myself, I am safe. I protect me. I am strong enough to catch me. I am enough. I know every corner of my mind and carry my history and I believe I am good and my life has reflected that.. I am my home.
It was oddly comforting, after which I put on a movie and had my soup and felt peace.

[Kelly2022]

My ex bpd was most comfortable communicating in text when we weren't physically together, he had an entire online world set up of which I was part of and I guess it was easier to keep track of everything through text. Being a busy mom it also suited me to text when I could throughout the day. So most of our life was documented, the arguments, the love bombing, the insults, the sexting, my journal. Pretty much everything. I just found out last night that my device was linked to my daughter's which is so devastating to hear. She must have been around 12. She blames her fear of relationships on this, which is understandable. Yet another thing to feel immense guilt about. Aside from embarrassment, and shame. An entire relationship of challenging his lack of respect, of trying to explain, defend, complain, fix, change, all the wrong things. She witnessed the whole rollercoaster and I was under the impression I was keeping her from all this by sorting out our issues after the kids were asleep or when they weren't around. What a massive tech error on my part. We had such a lovely, happy life before he came around.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Riv3rWolf, I just saw your message. Since I have two threads going I was checking the other and forgot about this one.
Did you make any progress with the idea of therapy for your mom? Would it be easier for the three of you to go or just her?

Hi Kelly2022, thank you for your empathy and interest. I was just answering your question regarding why your ex likely didn't go to therapy. My mother would never go to therapy, and I don't seek to convince her. We are no contact.

I just read what you wrote about your daughter reading all your messages with your ex... I am surprised she didn't tell you before? Do you think it is possible she told your mother, and that your mother somehow got involved and told her not to tell you?

It is saddening, but mistakes happen. If only you knew what I've seen... I've seen more than my share of failed relationships!  Between my father and my mother, who both got involved with a LOT of disordered people, and no, their relationships, in the end, did not traumatized me, it showed me what I didn't want though... I did stumble a bit, but blaming them for my own failed relationships would be going a bit too far in my opinion. I continued their bad habits for a while, sure, but snapped out of it at some point, once I realized I am not them.

Trust your daughter that she will find her way. I personally suspect your mother might be behind her telling you things like that, namely that she is scared of relationship because of this. Not that it isn't possible but I just have a really hard time believing she came to this conclusion on her own..

But then, again, I also don't want to place blame, I mainly just want to remind you now is the time for Self-Compassion and trust... Trust in your daughter finding her own way, and trust that no, you did not traumatize her.

Be kind to yourself.

At 12, you are old enough to know better than to read your mother's texts and messages and to inform her the devices are linked... Which is why I have a hunch that grandma may have had her paw in this whole story.

[Kelly2022]

Thank you for your supportive words. So much from your life can get drawn into the toxic relationship. I'm choosing to carry on and do my best with the new perspective that I have. I can't fix the past, just build a different future. I've been working with my therapist on how not to get triggered by teenage behaviour, which often happens when you've been in toxic relationships and have had no boundaries, you react emotionally. My go to has been to defend and I need to change that dynamic while validating their feelings. Each time I get together with my mom I realize almost all her communication is based on advice, on shoulds, on invalidating or minimizing my experience with "you should really just forgive and forget for your wellbeing" and on telling me not to expect anything from anyone because humans are all jerks and you should trust no one. This last part came after me mentioning I was surprised to discover I had siblings I didn't know about. When I say anything that makes her feel uncomfortable she tells me and everyone around her that I expect too much from people and I haven't learned to forgive and forget and that I am in a victim role. Then she switches the conversation to what she went through and that's real trauma and my experience doesn't compare because I had it all. I have been meeting her way less which is good. Her company can be pleasant but then she'll tell you something hurtful so the interactions are not healthy.

I've been spending my time trying to build up the career I always wanted, which is challenging after having lived through on and off years of flare ups from my illness and from raising kids on my own. It's so very difficult to have an invisible illness sometimes, with the fatigue and pain that comes and goes, the procedures, the dependency, the uncertainty. When you feel healthy you yourself are your worst critic and wonder why you're not in a better position or financial situation, you forget those periods in which you could hardly get up or move around. My own kids often forget and ask me "why don't you work at an office like every other mom", because they don't see it either. My mother just accuses me of spending too much when in reality I'm pretty good at budgeting.

I haven't been thinking about my ex at all. He reached out and I ignored the text with no feelings one way or the other. Except that when I dream he's still my boyfriend, but I'm hiding him, or he's crossing boundaries, or the many things we've lived through. I guess my subconscious needs to catch up.