BPD and a lack of integrity.

[Couper]

This is a question I posed to someone in private recently but wanted to throw it out to a wider audience.

We've all seen the explanation that borderlines have amnesia about what we consider acts of deception or that they feel justified in changing a narrative because it's some uncontrolable defense mechanism, or what have you.

What about the idea that they simply have no integrity?

I know that there is not a "one size fits all" to this.  I know that the above explanations will be proffered.  What about in a case like mine where I have her documented dead to rights?  A case where she uses me as the tool to promote her victimhood by telling an outright lie to garner people's pity.  She lies to me that it didn't happen.  Then she confesses in her journal or elsewhere that she did it intentionally. 

That tells me that there are cases where they do know what they are doing.  My uBPDw used to write me what I call "hate mail" where she would lay down pages of single-spaced 12pt. type about all her grievances and include rebuttals to my accusations, "Yes, I intentionally manipulate people.  Yes, I want people to see me as a victim.  But, I have to do those things because you make me x, y, z" which is an admission of knowing she has acted unscrupulously, yet turns right around and refuses to accept responsibility.

So -- lack of integrity.  That's what I'm throwing out there for debate.  I think if more people had access to documentation of the inner workings of the person tormenting them, this would be clearly seen more than only being able to say, "they know not what they do".
   

[BigOof]

I laughed when I read the discussion title. My blamer made a recording saying she wouldn't do something "because I have integrity" only to do it less than 24 hours later. Then she sent the recording to lawyers trying to incriminate me.

Integrity, cognitive empathy, guilt, and remorse are all seriously lacking in my experience.

[stolencrumbs]

This is really interesting. I think it partly depends on what we mean by "integrity." It is notoriously hard to define. But pretty much every definition ties it to the self in some way--its either about self-integration, self-identity, or self-construction. On any of those accounts, it would make sense that peBPD who lack a stable sense of self would also lack integrity. I hadn't thought about that before. It's an interesting question whether pwBPD are capable of integrity.

[zachira]

I see people with BPD and/or NPD as having split personalities and in some cases the splits are so bad they have multiple personalities. A healthy person is pretty much the same person no matter how dire the circumstances, and is what I would define as having integrity. A person who is not trustworthy can suddenly go into a rage without any apparent provocation or reasons, and do not seem to remember or be accountable in any way for how they have inflicted their rage onto others to avoid facing how overwhelmed they are by their own feelings.

[Couper]

I can define it by my own standard and I think it's one that most would identify with.  I cannot say it's precisely what's in some diagnostic manual.

Integrity would be standing up and admitting you have done something wrong and are willing to accept the consequences of your actions rather than trying to hang it on someone else.

[Couper]

I see people with BPD and/or NPD as having split personalities and in some cases the splits are so bad they have multiple personalities. A healthy person is pretty much the same person no matter how dire the circumstances, and is what I would define as having integrity. A person who is not trustworthy can suddenly go into a rage without any apparent provocation or reasons, and do not seem to remember or be accountable in any way for how they have inflicted their rage onto others to avoid facing how overwhelmed they are by their own feelings.

In my original post, this is the notion I'm trying to clarify.  Mine does remember.  I can show you documentation in her own hand.  She may say to you, "I never said that / I never did that / You're making that up to hurt me" {insert excuse here} yet turns around and records that she does know precisely what she did and, in some cases, even loathes herself for it.  She's not self-respecting enough to sacrifice any part of herself for someone else's mental well-being, though.

I think if more people here had the documentation that I do, that excuse would fall flat on its face more often than we accept.    

[stolencrumbs]

I can define it by my own standard and I think it's one that most would identify with.  I cannot say it's precisely what's in some diagnostic manual.

Integrity would be standing up and admitting you have done something wrong and are willing to accept the consequences of your actions rather than trying to hang it on someone else.

Yeah, that sounds like accountability to me, which seems distinct from integrity. I  don't want to get too far into weeds here and be the annoying philosopher that I am. But to me, integrity is more about a unification of virtues--about the virtues coming together to form a coherent whole. My exBPD was capable of taking responsibility some times, and also capable of demonstrating a whole range of virtues. I don't think those virtues ever came together into any kind of coherent whole, though.

[Couper]

Yeah, that sounds like accountability to me, which seems distinct from integrity. I  don't want to get too far into weeds here and be the annoying philosopher that I am. But to me, integrity is more about a unification of virtues--about the virtues coming together to form a coherent whole. My exBPD was capable of taking responsibility some times, and also capable of demonstrating a whole range of virtues. I don't think those virtues ever came together into any kind of coherent whole, though.

We can go further into the weeds -- I don't care -- I already live in a briar patch!  (being funny here, not critical!)

Whatever the case, say integrity or accountability, this notion that "they know not what they do" or have no recollection because it's a defense mechanism, is completely blown out of the water when they turn around and journal about what they deny having done.

So, how many people are getting snookered?  The aggressor sets the rules, but so often we find ourselves in the position of having to give benefit of the doubt by people that have none of that to offer.  I guess I'm curious how many others here have caught their partner dead to rights in situations where they deny even having recollection of their actions, but it turns out that they really do know what they have done.

It pains me to read accounts by good people here that say, "They treat me like crap and I still love them because they aren't in control of their actions".  Honestly, I have my doubts about how many BPD's don't have control of their actions.  Here's another angle -- if they can selectively unleash their wrath on their partner and then show themselves to be someone entirely different to the outside world, that tells me that they can exercise control. 

I'm not looking to blow smoke in anybody's face here.  I just wanted to get some candid dialogue going about a topic that has been chewing at me.
 

[stolencrumbs]

We can go further into the weeds -- I don't care -- I already live in a briar patch!  (being funny here, not critical!)

Whatever the case, say integrity or accountability, this notion that "they know not what they do" or have no recollection because it's a defense mechanism, is completely blown out of the water when they turn around and journal about what they deny having done.

So, how many people are getting snookered?  The aggressor sets the rules, but so often we find ourselves in the position of having to give benefit of the doubt by people that have none of that to offer.  I guess I'm curious how many others here have caught their partner dead to rights in situations where they deny even having recollection of their actions, but it turns out that they really do know what they have done.

It pains me to read accounts by good people here that say, "They treat me like crap and I still love them because they aren't in control of their actions".  Honestly, I have my doubts about how many BPD's don't have control of their actions.  Here's another angle -- if they can selectively unleash their wrath on their partner and then show themselves to be someone entirely different to the outside world, that tells me that they can exercise control. 

I'm not looking to blow smoke in anybody's face here.  I just wanted to get some candid dialogue going about a topic that has been chewing at me.
 

Yeah, semantics aside, I agree with you. I think it is partly conflating an explanation with an excuse or justification. A lot of things can explain why pwBPD do what they do. I don't think those explanations excuse or justify what they do. And I agree that most of the time, they know what they're doing. This was definitely the case with my ex. I also think the idea that they can't help it is offensive to all those people with BPD who do help it--who do the work and change their behavior.

[Notwendy]

I think they are responsible for their actions. There could be many reasons for them, but they are deemed legally competent in a court of law. My BPD mother has made many unwise decisions, about her finances and others. We have POA if she were to be legally incompetent, but she's still considered legally competent. To be legally competent, one is responsible for their decisions and actions.

A 4 year old having a tantrum may not be legally responsible for their actions, but they still have consequences. They may get put in time out. If they break a toy, it's broken. If they hit another child, they are put in time out for that too. Why is it that an adult with BPD can rage, trash things, and face no consequences in their relationship for that?

I don't know about integrity- I think my BPD mother has some integrity but she draws the line differently than someone else might. I don't think she'd do something criminal - in the outside world. She would not cause someone physical harm, or steal from a store. Somehow in her closest relationships, the "rules" are different. She lies frequently and she knows it, she even enjoys doing it. It's like a game to her if she can "fool me". She's cruel, verbally abusive, manipulative, but she'd not ever treat her neighbors or acquaintances that way. She has some integrity but the rules don't seem to apply with her immediate family.

What she doesn't have is empathy. She can fake it if she wants to, but I have not seen any real empathy from her.

I think some of her "forgetting" may be from dissociation, but mostly she knows what she does. I think it's a spectrum though, and she's on the more severe end. Others may not be.

[BigOof]

I've noticed that most people (flying monkeys) assume pwBPD is acting with integrity. Two months later, they're like "WTF, this is nonsense?" But in those two months, a lot of damage is done.

But then pwBPD only "remembers" the first half of the interaction with the flying monkey - i.e. the part where she told them lies and an investigation was opened. Never mind for the fifth time there were no findings whatsoever from the investigation. Then this "memory" enables her to move on to the next patsy ready to put on a monkey suit with wings.

[GaGrl]

My stepdaughter says that her mother (my DH's uBPD/NPD ex) was almost boastful on multiple occasions when she said she had "never lied to your father." My DH finds this laughable. Their long marriage was a series of her constant, blatant infidelities -- all of which involved lies of commission and omission.

I wonder now about her level of dissociation.

At age 66, she has now reached a stage of "telling stories" that is either dissociation, delusion, or extreme paranoia. (Her current story to SD41 is that her SO of 20+ years has stolen money from her to pay for airfare for the prostitute he has been seeing to fly to Thailand to be close to him for their annual twin month visit to family. This is after she has installed cameras in the house and licks a padlock on the INSIDE of their bedroom door each night to keep him from meeting this person.)

You can't reason with this.

[Couper]

At age 66, she has now reached a stage of "telling stories" that is either dissociation, delusion, or extreme paranoia.

Interesting.  Tying this into my original thought -- how do you know it's not the fourth option: that she is knowingly telling a lie in order to paint herself as a victim?  In some respect, the other three options sort of wash her hands of her actions. 

My uBPDw went through a phase where she was telling people we couldn't pay our bills and accepting charity from people.  I can't tell you how humiliating that is.  We were not destitute and everything was paid up to date.  In fact, she was handling payment of the bills, so she knew.  That's just one example of many.  When they know the truth and lie, they are just using us as tools to promote their victimhood.

[Couper]

Just another thought that came to mind this morning.  Maybe the old saying of, "doing the right thing even when nobody is watching" applies to integrity.  I guess I sort of see integrity as an all-or-nothing proposition.  Not something that is only used in certain circumstances.

[Notwendy]

On rare occasion, my BPD mother has admitted to telling people lies. She has a little "gotcha" smile and seems pleased with herself when people believe her. She's done it with me and when I fall for it, and see her reaction, I know what happened. I have heard her say "I pulled the wool over their eyes". So, most of the time, she knows what she's doing.

When caught in a lie, she's said to me "I have never lied to you" which is also a lie.

I wasn't aware of this for a long time. I think as BigOof said, lying is not the first impression. I think we naturally trust our close family members initially. Once I realized it, it was a shock.

The question is why would someone do that? It's very damaging to close relationships so it's hard to understand a motive.

For my BPD mother, it's a way of getting her needs met. She seems to see things in victim perspective. I think she justifies this behavior to herself as a means of self defense. A person may have integrity in general- consider it wrong to do something harmful to someone else- but self defense is an exception. We would not consider harming someone but if they broke into our house and tried to hurt us, we would do that in self defense. I think they have a similar sense of desperation when they feel they are a victim. Since they have a poor sense of self, their sense of self feels threatened.

One aspect of the Karpman triangle is that a person can play all three roles to themselves. If they feel like a victim, they can "rescue" themselves by over spending ( I need this to feel better ), cheating (he/she won't meet my needs, so I deserve this) and they may even lie about this in self defense. It's distorted thinking but I think this creates the loophole for the general standards of integrity.

My BPD mother has a great need to be taken care of, but she doesn't ask directly, so she sets up situations where she gets this need met. ( such as the example Cooper gave of getting charity). My mother doesn't ask for charity, but she acts helpless in some situations or orders people to do things for her.

Control- this is a big one. My mother needs to be in control. She keeps her own agenda hidden while setting things up to get her needs met without people knowing what they are. She will also lie to draw people to her side, against someone she perceives as having been hurtful to her.

She's focused on her own feelings. Either she has no empathy, or she's so focused on her own difficult feelings that this is all she can manage. Sometimes I wonder if she's on the sociopathic spectrum, or perhaps she's just unaware of how her behaviors impact her close relationships.

Maybe the bottom line is that, we may not be able to know why, or what someone else is thinking. All we can do is decide how we respond to the behaviors according to our own boundaries.

[Couper]

Maybe the bottom line is that, we may not be able to know why, or what someone else is thinking. All we can do is decide how we respond to the behaviors according to our own boundaries.

I think you nailed it on all points.  I hate that you have to contend with all of that.  On a personal note, it's like we're on a parallel track -- just that you are related to yours and I'm married to mine.

Within the last two years, my uBPDw found this church of rescuers I have mentioned.  Not my type of denomination, but I would still go on occasion until I found out she had gotten comfortable enough there that she started trashing me to them and they have latched onto it.  They have circled the wagons around her.  Now it's sitting in a room full of people that see me as the cause of all her problems and as something that needs to be fixed.  I have told her that I will not ever set foot in that place again and she doesn't even try anymore.  Another self-fulfilling prophecy fulfilled.  They can have her.

Point being that occasionally I'll go back and watch their online broadcast just to make sure they aren't screwing up my kids or whatnot.  Several weeks ago I was surprised to find where uBPDw joined as a full-blown member.  She has never mentioned a peep about this.  When they had the new members up front, they asked them to say a bit and when they got to her, all she said was something like, "I have finally found a place where I feel like everyone is taking care of me" and of course they ate this up.  They have no clue what that statement really means.  To me, church means to selflessly give of yourself.  I think since I have so fully detached from her, she has been scouring all over for a new host and they are it.       

[BigOof]

Another self-fulfilling prophecy fulfilled.

LOL

[Notwendy]

Yes, it's a challenge to deal with for any kind of relationship. I think the common thread is that BPD issues seem to show themselves most in the most intimate relationships. One poster a while back described it as an attachment disorder. The most intimate of all relationships is the romantic one, but next is immediate family members. As you have seen, BPD is most problematic with them, and less with acquaintances as long as they don't get close.

Oh gosh, that church situation!  I've seen similar dynamics as well. It's not comfortable to think we are being presented as the "bad guy" but I am also grateful that my mother has a support system. Because the dynamics are different between them, they can be that for her. I just know that if anyone is in her circle, I should keep an emotional distance.

I think it must be very hard to have children involved. Your role, as a stable and reliable parent will have a positive impact.

[Couper]

Yes, it's a challenge to deal with for any kind of relationship. I think the common thread is that BPD issues seem to show themselves most in the most intimate relationships. One poster a while back described it as an attachment disorder. The most intimate of all relationships is the romantic one, but next is immediate family members. As you have seen, BPD is most problematic with them, and less with acquaintances as long as they don't get close.

Oh gosh, that church situation!  I've seen similar dynamics as well. It's not comfortable to think we are being presented as the "bad guy" but I am also grateful that my mother has a support system. Because the dynamics are different between them, they can be that for her. I just know that if anyone is in her circle, I should keep an emotional distance.

I think it must be very hard to have children involved. Your role, as a stable and reliable parent will have a positive impact.

It's like living in some sort of warped hell. 

My uBPDw's "support system" consists of enablers.  That's not he right kind of support.  It just throws fuel on the fire. 

It's extremely hard having children involved.  Staying here is a life of misery.  Leaving risks having her (and her circle of enablers) poison my kids against me.  I've tried to discretely ask my kids at times (usually when something they are doing risks making her blow) if they remember mommy raging / hysterical / etc. (in the most kid friendly way I can) and it's like they have no memory of it.  I have witnessed some truly horrifying behavior.  Either they have blotted it out of their memory or they just don't know any different so they don't see it as a problem.  If they have no memory of it and I initiate divorce, they won't see me as saving them from anything.  Of course, except for my best friend that lives under very similar circumstances, on the few occasions when I have tried to discuss this with anyone that knows me really well, yet hasn't really ever spent any time with her, they treat it as if I'm making it up.  I guess people just don't want to believe things like this can happen if they've never had to live it.

Sorry, this has gone off track from the intent of my original post, but I guess most of these things do.     

[Notwendy]

I have a spotty memory of some events in childhood as well. Sometimes a sibling will describe something that happened and I don't remember it. Other things, I do remember. Dissociation, while it happens with BPD also happens in other situations. It's a defense mechanism. Kids will do that.

It's a tough choice to stay or leave. Each person has to decide for themselves according to their own circumstances.

The kids will likely need counseling at some point. It's a good thing for them. And the opportunity to be around people who are more stable.

Having a BPD parent has its own issues. A lot has been posted here about that. Some dynamics are similar. The romantic bond is unique though.

I think the turning a person against another is potentially possible. I am glad you are being persistent with your kids.

[Couper]

I have a spotty memory of some events in childhood as well. Sometimes a sibling will describe something that happened and I don't remember it. Other things, I do remember. Dissociation, while it happens with BPD also happens in other situations. It's a defense mechanism. Kids will do that.

It's a tough choice to stay or leave. Each person has to decide for themselves according to their own circumstances.

The kids will likely need counseling at some point. It's a good thing for them. And the opportunity to be around people who are more stable.

Having a BPD parent has its own issues. A lot has been posted here about that. Some dynamics are similar. The romantic bond is unique though.

I think the turning a person against another is potentially possible. I am glad you are being persistent with your kids.

That helps to know that the memory thing with children is not unique.  I get gaslighted enough as it is.  That really had me starting to wonder.

I've started to look at divorce from the standpoint of at least it would get me my own set of rights.  I think it would at least.  The right to take them to a pediatrician without her derailing it.  The right for me to get my son help with what I think is a learning disability.  It would even give me the right to take them alone on a road trip -- a right she reserves for herself but not for me. 

She'll lose her marbles over the whole thing.  Having any kind of independent third-party with authority to tell her what to do could bring about who knows what kind of retribution.  If I let the fear of retribution hold me back, then I'm just allowing myself to be a hostage.

[PeteWitsend]

BPDxw once told me her mom told her to always lie to your partner/husband, and "even if he catches you in bed with another man, deny it."

I wondered why she told me that.  It went against everything she claimed (to me) she expected from her partner, and her claims that her family were genuine people who truly loved eachother, and not superficial and fake like my materialistic American family.

She would always look to deflect blame though, so she was not consistent; she would blame whoever for her own behavior, even if in some contexts, that person was wonderful and loving.  Anything to avoid accepting responsibility for her own actions...

[Couper]

She would always look to deflect blame though, so she was not consistent; she would blame whoever for her own behavior, even if in some contexts, that person was wonderful and loving.  Anything to avoid accepting responsibility for her own actions...

I have told this story before I think, but it checks off a lot of boxes for this topic.  We had lived here for about eight months and my daughter's 4th birthday was coming up.  For the month before I had been cautiously on her about spreading the word and inviting people.  Say it too often or say it too little and there is hell to pay -- you know the drill.  One, or possibly two, days before her birthday, I was in the kitchen having breakfast with my kids, laughing, joking, having a good time when uBPDw came in and sucked all the oxygen out of the room.

She's crying and borderline hysterical about how nobody is coming to our little girl's birthday.  At first I was incredulous.  My kids had been to all these other kids birthdays for the months prior, they had friends through their homeschool groups, and not a single mom could see fit to come over for the day?  When I said I just didn't understand, then she started with, "It's because they all hate me.  Nobody want to come because they all hate me."  That's when I knew we had entered a whole new level of crazy.

I looked at her and asked, "How many invitations did you send out?" and with a dead look on her face she said, "I didn't invite anybody".  That really scared me.  Then she used the perverted logic that it didn't matter because they still wouldn't have come even if she did invite them because they all hate her.  When I tried to explain to her that she just slandered all of these women by trashing them for not doing something they didn't even know they were invited to do, the whole thing just got more insane.

There you have the whole package.  Lying -- which was a blatant fabrication.  No integrity on how many levels?  Throwing those other moms under the bus to promote her victimhood.  Killing another chunk of my brain cells for having to sort out what was a fairy tail.  Making my kids witness all that.  

If I were to bring it up today, I would either be told that it never happened or it would get turned on its head with her projecting everything she hates about herself onto me.  A favorite is to say that I don't have the ability to forgive, as though it was like leaving the milk out on the counter overnight.        

[60av8tor]

I have told this story before I think, but it checks off a lot of boxes for this topic.  We had lived here for about eight months and my daughter's 4th birthday was coming up.  For the month before I had been cautiously on her about spreading the word and inviting people.  Say it too often or say it too little and there is hell to pay -- you know the drill.  One, or possibly two, days before her birthday, I was in the kitchen having breakfast with my kids, laughing, joking, having a good time when uBPDw came in and sucked all the oxygen out of the room.

She's crying and borderline hysterical about how nobody is coming to our little girl's birthday.  At first I was incredulous.  My kids had been to all these other kids birthdays for the months prior, they had friends through their homeschool groups, and not a single mom could see fit to come over for the day?  When I said I just didn't understand, then she started with, "It's because they all hate me.  Nobody want to come because they all hate me."  That's when I knew we had entered a whole new level of crazy.

I looked at her and asked, "How many invitations did you send out?" and with a dead look on her face she said, "I didn't invite anybody".  That really scared me.  Then she used the perverted logic that it didn't matter because they still wouldn't have come even if she did invite them because they all hate her.  When I tried to explain to her that she just slandered all of these women by trashing them for not doing something they didn't even know they were invited to do, the whole thing just got more insane.

There you have the whole package.  Lying -- which was a blatant fabrication.  No integrity on how many levels?  Throwing those other moms under the bus to promote her victimhood.  Killing another chunk of my brain cells for having to sort out what was a fairy tail.  Making my kids witness all that.  

If I were to bring it up today, I would either be told that it never happened or it would get turned on its head with her projecting everything she hates about herself onto me.  A favorite is to say that I don't have the ability to forgive, as though it was like leaving the milk out on the counter overnight.        

Honestly (no pun intended) I don't think it's blatant lying much of the time. I think reality gets distorted and they actually believe what they're thinking (feeling really) and what they want to be true. I posted below in a couple other support groups and I believe it's speaks to reality vs BPD reality at times:

Posted this in another group as an explanation of how many of my responses (had not even heard of BPD at the time) to my wife were absolutely the worst possible for her BPD. I only found out about BPD after she split me with a vengeance. Too late for me, but maybe it can prevent, or at least lessen, a disaster in someone else’s life…
—————————————————
Last year, I was preparing for an interview for a new job; had several days off and one of those days was an online prep course that I was taking - had a session from 9-2. I realized at that time how any attention not towards my wife caused issues (unfortunately I had never heard of BPD at the time), so the night prior I took her out to a nice place for dinner - we had a nice evening. The next day, immediately after my interview prep - around 2:00 - I went outside and found my wife. Hugged her, kissed her, said how I just want to spend the evening together, have a nice dinner together, etc.

Well, that night we had a blow out because she felt ignored (interview prep 9-2) - said she needs more attention (never ending) Surprisingly I stayed fairly calm (unfortunately I DID NOT always do that). I explained how I had taken her to dinner less than 24 hours before, went and found her immediately after my meeting, etc. I said she easily overlooks when I do give her attention; when I do try. She AGREED with me; told me I was right.

The kicker here - and this is where you’re going to have to change you’re expectations - is that she didn’t apologize for the spin and realize it came from a misdirected place. She just moved on to another reason for the spin - a comment I had made weeks earlier.

This is it. This is how it works. You can’t get frustrated by the lack of logic; by connecting dots that absolutely don’t connect as I used to say to my wife. You can calmly describe the reality of what happened, explain your true intentions, and validate your wife’s feelings (even though those dots just don’t connect in your mind) - explain how you understand how she could feel the way she does (even though a lot of times in no freaking way could I logically understand).

If you just say, WTH? This has no basis in reality, and try to prove how you’re right and she’s all wrong (it really, really feels that way many times!) you’ll just spin in circles for hours, with you truly becoming part of the problem (truly and absolutely in her mind) and wondering WTF you’re even arguing about. Ask me how I know. I was a pro at this, unfortunately.

I wish I had known this - any of it - before my wife split me with a vengeance. Not saying the end result (my current divorce) would have been any different, but I really would have liked to have the chance to change a lot of my responses to her behavior…

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Couper,

I'm not surprised by this:

I've tried to discretely ask my kids at times (usually when something they are doing risks making her blow) if they remember mommy raging / hysterical / etc. (in the most kid friendly way I can) and it's like they have no memory of it.  I have witnessed some truly horrifying behavior.  Either they have blotted it out of their memory or they just don't know any different so they don't see it as a problem.

Like NotWendy,  I had an uBPDm, and there's much I don't remember,  and what I do remember seems to be what my mind says were more isolated instances, yet at the same time knowing that it was constant, but not having specific memories to point back to. My T said it this way, that the mind floods with chemicals that cause us to forget the trauma because we weren't safe. That's also the reason why the memories of those of us raised by a pwBPD aren't necessarily in logical order or sense. It's weird but true. As I worked through T and as I spoke with my siblings, we each found memories returning or extra pieces of the puzzle brought into the light helping us to put together what our childhoods looked like.

One of the best things you can do as a parent is represent healthy and whole to them. They may not even see you or their mom as one way or the other until they get older. A very typical response that they may have above all else is that they may think and believe that they did something wrong [which caused mom to get mad at them], not understanding that they're not the problem. That takes time, and the more you affirm and validate them for who they are, the better they'll be. They'll eventually see what's going on. Kids are pretty astute.

Just some thoughts.

 
Wools

[Couper]

My T said it this way, that the mind floods with chemicals that cause us to forget the trauma because we weren't safe.

One of the best things you can do as a parent is represent healthy and whole to them. They may not even see you or their mom as one way or the other until they get older. A very typical response that they may have above all else is that they may think and believe that they did something wrong [which caused mom to get mad at them], not understanding that they're not the problem. That takes time, and the more you affirm and validate them for who they are, the better they'll be. They'll eventually see what's going on. Kids are pretty astute.

Wow.  I guess that chemical well dries up as we get older?  I could sure use some of that today!  Sorry, I don't mean to make light of the subject.

The second part is what hurts the most.  This is screwed up for my kids no matter what and they'll have to spend years digging their way out of it all because I made the horrible horrible mistake of marrying their mother.  I guess whether I'm married to her or not there is no way around it for them.  Perhaps being divorced is better in that sense because then they can connect the dots that "this happens in her house but not in his house" whereas right now everything is just blended together.  That all sounds good on paper unless she figures out how to turn them against me. 

I'm just going to say it because I keep holding it back trying to be polite -- maybe she'll just stroke-out when she gets served with papers.  Why don't we ever hear about that happening to these people?  They take a chunk out of our own health, yet they seem to go through hysterical episodes and just plod on forever.  I guess that's what having no conscience will do for you.     

[PeteWitsend]

I have told this story before I think, but it checks off a lot of boxes for this topic.  We had lived here for about eight months and my daughter's 4th birthday was coming up.  For the month before I had been cautiously on her about spreading the word and inviting people.  Say it too often or say it too little and there is hell to pay -- you know the drill.  One, or possibly two, days before her birthday, I was in the kitchen having breakfast with my kids, laughing, joking, having a good time when uBPDw came in and sucked all the oxygen out of the room.

She's crying and borderline hysterical about how nobody is coming to our little girl's birthday.  At first I was incredulous.  My kids had been to all these other kids birthdays for the months prior, they had friends through their homeschool groups, and not a single mom could see fit to come over for the day?  When I said I just didn't understand, then she started with, "It's because they all hate me.  Nobody want to come because they all hate me."  That's when I knew we had entered a whole new level of crazy.

I looked at her and asked, "How many invitations did you send out?" and with a dead look on her face she said, "I didn't invite anybody".  That really scared me.  Then she used the perverted logic that it didn't matter because they still wouldn't have come even if she did invite them because they all hate her.  When I tried to explain to her that she just slandered all of these women by trashing them for not doing something they didn't even know they were invited to do, the whole thing just got more insane.

There you have the whole package.  Lying -- which was a blatant fabrication.  No integrity on how many levels?  Throwing those other moms under the bus to promote her victimhood.  Killing another chunk of my brain cells for having to sort out what was a fairy tail.  Making my kids witness all that.  

If I were to bring it up today, I would either be told that it never happened or it would get turned on its head with her projecting everything she hates about herself onto me.  A favorite is to say that I don't have the ability to forgive, as though it was like leaving the milk out on the counter overnight.        

Sometimes the dishonesty seems to stem from a genuine weakness and pathos, like this.  They lie out of desperation to protect their fragile self-image.  It's kinda hard to blame them sometimes, knowing the nature of BPD.  Not to defend it, but you can kinda understand it.

Other times they intentionally lie to manipulate.  Or stretch the truth, draw false equivalences, etc. or misrepresent what was said or done, or ignore the context.  I recall endless circular arguments where BPDxw would go out of her way to claim she wasn't lying... but whatever she was doing it was certainly not honest, or forthright.

I suppose we all do, sometimes, but with BPD these actions are persistent and extreme, and honesty is a rare occurrence. 

[PeteWitsend]

For me, one of the most painful things is how the lack of integrity gets in the way of getting basic things done.

It's one thing to lie to protect yourself from some perceived harm, it's another to lie or carry on about something consistently, no matter how small or petty, and pointless the discussion can be.

Like "We're hungry and need to eat something on this road trip.  This town only has a McDonald's and a Burger King.  Which one should we eat at?"

and you get in response "You NEVER want to go anywhere nice with me."

... and on, and on, into endless circular arguments that you have to simply walk away from, because they would otherwise never end and you'd both starve to death.

[Couper]

For me, one of the most painful things is how the lack of integrity gets in the way of getting basic things done.

It's one thing to lie to protect yourself from some perceived harm, it's another to lie or carry on about something consistently, no matter how small or petty, and pointless the discussion can be.

Like "We're hungry and need to eat something on this road trip.  This town only has a McDonald's and a Burger King.  Which one should we eat at?"

and you get in response "You NEVER want to go anywhere nice with me."

... and on, and on, into endless circular arguments that you have to simply walk away from, because they would otherwise never end and you'd both starve to death.

Yes, this -- exactly this!

[PeteWitsend]

Yes, this -- exactly this!

I seem to attract only this type of person, so I probably need to just avoid serious relationships in the future.