Calmer, LESS abusive period - my thoughts

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I've read Jonice Webbs book called "Running on empty: overcome your childhood emotional neglect". She proposes that neglect can occur in loving families.

there was more than a little neglect in my family.    physical and emotional.   I never thought much about it as child.   I believed this was the way things were in other families.   even as an adult I had trouble identifying it.   my family of course sold it as a positive.   'oh babyducks had such independence as a child, no one ever told her what to do'   complete with a laugh laugh wink wink.

did I have a model of a loving and caring family.   nope absolutely not.    everyone hunkered down in their bunkers trying to avoid any interactions or contact with anyone else.

My wife always tells me there is abuse in my family but she says that about almost all families we know. So it's triggering me a bit when someone wants me to try to see something I don't see. Because that's what my wife does all the time. Define everything so I don't trust my own reality. At the same time, there are probably things that has had some meaning in my childhood that I don't remember or downplay.

definitely understand the trigger.   not trying to push on that at all.   I know what was true for me is there were deeply engrained reasons I tolerated, heck, I expected the very poor treatment that came from my pwBPD.   it seemed ~normal~ to me.   my expectations of kindness, respect, communication were pretty much nonexistent.    never having seen it, I never missed it.

It was my role in my family to be the caretaker.   I was given to my grandparents at about 10 years old  so that I could help them as they aged.    with the lifting, the walking, the daily household chores.   the unintended message was I had value in a relationship if I was over performing.    if I was care taking.   and I swallowed that one hook line and sinker.

none of these things rose to the level of 'abuse', in my opinion.   although there were probably a few isolated incidents that hit the threshold.    there was a lot of Adverse Childhood Experiences that cause me to score pretty high on the ACE's test.

I am also pretty conflict intolerant.    that must have originated in my FOO but I couldn't quite tell you why or where.      of the four reactions - flight, fight, freeze or fawn.   I tend to freeze or fawn.     I associate freezing with going numb and fawning with capitulating to someone else's reality.     

helpful thread.   thanks for keeping it going.
'ducks

[babyducks]

I've read Jonice Webbs book called "Running on empty: overcome your childhood emotional neglect". She proposes that neglect can occur in loving families.

there was more than a little neglect in my family.    physical and emotional.   I never thought much about it as child.   I believed this was the way things were in other families.   even as an adult I had trouble identifying it.   my family of course sold it as a positive.   'oh babyducks had such independence as a child, no one ever told her what to do'   complete with a laugh laugh wink wink.

did I have a model of a loving and caring family.   nope absolutely not.    everyone hunkered down in their bunkers trying to avoid any interactions or contact with anyone else.

My wife always tells me there is abuse in my family but she says that about almost all families we know. So it's triggering me a bit when someone wants me to try to see something I don't see. Because that's what my wife does all the time. Define everything so I don't trust my own reality. At the same time, there are probably things that has had some meaning in my childhood that I don't remember or downplay.

definitely understand the trigger.   not trying to push on that at all.   I know what was true for me is there were deeply engrained reasons I tolerated, heck, I expected the very poor treatment that came from my pwBPD.   it seemed ~normal~ to me.   my expectations of kindness, respect, communication were pretty much nonexistent.    never having seen it, I never missed it.

It was my role in my family to be the caretaker.   I was given to my grandparents at about 10 years old  so that I could help them as they aged.    with the lifting, the walking, the daily household chores.   the unintended message was I had value in a relationship if I was over performing.    if I was care taking.   and I swallowed that one hook line and sinker.

none of these things rose to the level of 'abuse', in my opinion.   although there were probably a few isolated incidents that hit the threshold.    there was a lot of Adverse Childhood Experiences that cause me to score pretty high on the ACE's test.

I am also pretty conflict intolerant.    that must have originated in my FOO but I couldn't quite tell you why or where.      of the four reactions - flight, fight, freeze or fawn.   I tend to freeze or fawn.     I associate freezing with going numb and fawning with capitulating to someone else's reality.     

helpful thread.   thanks for keeping it going.
'ducks

[livednlearned]

Oof. Apologies if my comments were triggering, 15 years. My n/BPDx often did something similar to what your wife does, though for him I suspect it was to further isolate me, which it did.  

Like you, I don't have parents with PDs. However, they are emotionally stunted. They were not equipped to help kids manage basic challenges. My mother is an adult child -- this insight came from a family therapist. She is not able to get emotional needs met directly so uses workarounds that can feel very distancing.

What you describe sounds like a parent committed to doing her best to avoiding challenging emotions, probably with good intentions. Could it be that she inadvertently invalidated regular feelings?

Perhaps it does not rise to the level of abuse, but it may be a degree of invalidation that creates a split reality. If what you feel and what is said are chronically different, would that gap between real emotions (reality) and words (preferred reality) feel normal?

[15years]

I am also pretty conflict intolerant.    that must have originated in my FOO but I couldn't quite tell you why or where.      of the four reactions - flight, fight, freeze or fawn.   I tend to freeze or fawn.     I associate freezing with going numb and fawning with capitulating to someone else's reality.     

helpful thread.   thanks for keeping it going.
'ducks

Previously I also tended to freeze or fawn in arguments with my wife. Haven't quite read much about fawning but it sounds like my coping strategy up to the point when it doesn't work anymore, after that I freeze and that often happened quite quickly. I was surprised to notice how easy it was to start fighting this winter when I grew some self confidence after realizing my W wasn't always right. Now I'm trying to not use any of those four responses.

In my foo we didn't fight and I have been very conflict intolerant my whole life.

Oof. Apologies if my comments were triggering, 15 years. My n/BPDx often did something similar to what your wife does, though for him I suspect it was to further isolate me, which it did. 

Like you, I don't have parents with PDs. However, they are emotionally stunted. They were not equipped to help kids manage basic challenges. My mother is an adult child -- this insight came from a family therapist. She is not able to get emotional needs met directly so uses workarounds that can feel very distancing.

What you describe sounds like a parent committed to doing her best to avoiding challenging emotions, probably with good intentions. Could it be that she inadvertently invalidated regular feelings?

Perhaps it does not rise to the level of abuse, but it may be a degree of invalidation that creates a split reality. If what you feel and what is said are chronically different, would that gap between real emotions (reality) and words (preferred reality) feel normal?

This is getting close to describing my FOO. My mom is pretty competent and people turn to her for emotional support, me too when I was a child, but somehow I didn't tell her my deepest worries, because I didn't want to be a burden, or maybe felt that she wouldn't understand. She was the middle child in her foo and her little brother jokingly calls her a deaconess, because she never wanted to fight and instead bring together people. I think she is frightened of personal problems though. When they are at arms length, she's fine and engage in solving problems.

If someone close to her expresses hurt feelings over something another person close to her said, she can be invalidating because she desperately don't want there to be a fight between two loved ones. I noticed this when one of her grandchildren expressed annoyance with another grandchild. She didn't validate those feelings at all, she just told her off by saying the other child is a really good child - an 'end of story' kind of comment.

How would that have affected my childhood? Maybe we children weren't allowed to express feelings about other people she liked, for example fight between us children weren't accepted. What kind of consequences would that have had? Does it serve an important purpose to gossip about loved ones?

[Notwendy]

I think the fact that so many people in a family are involved in relationships with disordered people are a clue that something is is going on in the dynamics of that family. It doesn't necessarily mean a family member had BPD. The dynamics are similar in families with alcoholism or other addiction and maybe other disorders as well. Families function as a unit in a way, with each person in the family taking on a role to keep the balance in the family. These patterns can be very ingrained, and familiar, to the point where someone doesn't think they are dysfunctional because our families set the definition of "normal" for a child. It's normal to them because it's all they know. It's when the child grows up and takes these behaviors that were functional in their family into adult relationships, they can become dysfunctional and lead them to "match" with someone who is also dysfunctional. It feels "normal" and familiar to them.

I think disfunction can be overt or covert. In my FOO, it was obvious that something wasn't normal with BPD mother as her behaviors were obviously disordered. My perception was then that Dad was the normal one. He was the more functional parent, the most even tempered parent. He was also very co-dependent and he reinforced our co-dependency with BPD mother because it kept the dynamics more stable if we all enabled her and complied with her. He didn't see it as not normal- because it was his normal.

However, being co-dependent to this extent is a set up for dysfunction in adult relationships.

By contrast, my mother's family is more like the ones described here. Everyone is high functioning professionally. But emotionally, they are invalidating. They look great from the outside but a closer look reveals dysfunction- but it's more covert. They don't acknowledge issues. Being around them feels as if one is invisible.

I think what is common between these two kinds of families is the inability to deal with conflict and emotions. One family avoids it, sweeps it under the rug, and doesn't deal with it. In my family, BPD mother's emotions were obvious and over the top, while the focus was on her and the only way to manage conflict was to appease her.  Children growing up in both these families did not experience adults working out conflicts in emotionally healthy ways and didn't learn how to do this well themselves.

That's the match- lack of ability to work out conflicts due to not having learned how. It doesn't mean both people have the same disorder, or come from families with a BPD member. The pattern of one person matched with a co-dependent enabling partner is one that is common to different situations and that can be a "match" as well.

[15years]

Thank you all or the interesting points about family dynamics, I think it will take some time for me to figure out my childhood, but discussions like this is necessary for that to ever happen.

 
Regarding the subject of this thread:
The latest development is that the calm period is continuing but every day there's something that leaves me confused and questioning what will happen in the future.

I think she is hypervigilant to where I'm at in the relationship and ironically it feels like she is walking on eggshells around me now. I haven't completely let my guard down, don't know if I ever will again.

She almost daily brings up having a third child which is something we always planned to have, to have three or four  children. She and my eldest son talk a lot about this so it worries me that she's bringing him into this. They laugh and fantasize together how it will be to have another family member. IF I'm staying and manage to stabilize the relationship, I also want another child, but that is not in the near future, at least two years from now. I feel confident to not give in to her request for another child for now. I'm mostly concerned about her involving my son in fantasizing about this dream.

Also, the other day she leaned in to kiss me when our children were present, it felt ok for me at that moment actually. S6 asked "are you in love again?". W said yes and asked him if he liked that and of course he agreed. She told him that we won't fight like we have anymore. S6 told us that you can't hit and fight all the time. W agreed and told him that you cannot hit anyone and fight in the way we have been doing, but grown ups will argue sometimes. He said "Yes but not fight day in and day out". I found it tragically funny and but with a lot of red flags   about what my son is going through. She promised him we won't ever fight like that again... I'm completely clueless how to handle this...     I don't want to mess with my sons feelings/thoughts/reality/everything. Can I tell him anything, he will be so disappointed with us when we fight again. I will try to stay completely calm but have boundaries abd be assertive to avoid exploding myself.

Actually I'm not afraid of her right now. I feel like I have a very thick skin now, too thick to ever develop any feelings of love for her again.

This is really a nowhere land.

We watched a youtube clip from a local B-celebrity yesterday, I found it very disturbing when I realized she's probably bpd herself. I feel I would never want to be near a pwbpd ever again and here I am sharing the most intimate private part of life with one... I don't want her to know about my thoughts and feelings, my health, my daily life. These are feelings of course but maybe my body and mind is actively trying to push me away from her. I never imagined it feeling like this to fall out of love... being in love + being in the fog was helping me stay in this dysfunctional relationship. Without those two it's unbelievably painful to stay in the relationship. At the same time, a lot sI happening with my mind nowadays so I couldn't make a trustworthy decision right now.

Speaking of nowadays, today my wife told me I'm such a great husband nowadays. Is that a subtle way to remind me and cement the idea that I am the cause of all dysfunction or does she simply find my new stubbornness attractive...

I guess this was me venting my thoughts from the last couple of days

[livednlearned]

I think she is hypervigilant to where I'm at in the relationship and ironically it feels like she is walking on eggshells around me now.

It seems like your show of strength gave her the ability to return to baseline after working herself into a state. She has shown she can regulate her impulses to be violent when you demonstrate a boundary.

Would you agree that if your wife is triggered by what you represent in x moment, and you remove that trigger (you), she calms down?

When you returned, she was calm and even seemed appreciative.

Most likely, without specific skills, the effort to contain her impulses will become exhausting. 

Any thoughts on what you might do different if/when she becomes violent?

Could you envision talking to her during this tender cycle about what you will do in the event a fight happens?

[ForeverDad]

She almost daily brings up having a third child which is something we always planned to have, to have three or four children.

She no doubt believes you would not end the marriage if she were pregnant or had a baby.  You will have to be the one ensuring that birth control measures are taken.  She would sabotage you if she had her way.  Sorry.

S6 told us that you can't hit and fight all the time. W agreed and told him that you cannot hit anyone and fight in the way we have been doing, but grown ups will argue sometimes. He said "Yes but not fight day in and day out".

A lifetime ago, before my own marriage's implosion and divorce, I and another elder tried to help a fuming couple...

... So we have to determine individually what is best in our situations, circumstances, level of conflict or discord, as to what we ought to do.  If it is somewhat manageable and low conflict, the marriage might be rocky but still work.  However, if we're always obstructed, sabotaged, disparaged, struggling, etc, then that would not be a good example to the children.

For example, I recall once trying to help a couple with two young children.  They were both clearly very angry with each other, fuming mad even.  They grew up in families that fought.  I reasoned with them, "You grew up around conflict.  Didn't you as children tell yourselves, When I grow up I'll never do what my parents did?  But look, here you are fighting just as they did, so angry that you can't see straight!  If you grow up around conflict, you're at risk to mirror it in your own lives.  So my question is, Do you want that same future for your children, do you want to keep passing that on to the next generations?"

[Couper]

I think she is hypervigilant to where I'm at in the relationship and ironically it feels like she is walking on eggshells around me now. I haven't completely let my guard down, don't know if I ever will again.

She almost daily brings up having a third child which is something we always planned to have, to have three or four  children.

I think that's what I have going on here now.  Once I became vocal about being done with her is when she did a hard about-face.  In the past she has somewhat, but what I'm seeing now -- I don't trust her any further than I can throw her.  You can't take 14 years of dysfunction and just shut it off.  It still peeks through the cracks every once in a while.  Her pattern has always been to run it out to the cliff and then pull it back.  The difference is this time, I haven't allowed the cycle to complete itself like in years-past.

In the beginning, I was open to having three kids.  After the second one was a few years old, I flat out told her no and never changed my mind.  She'd raise the issue and I'd just say look, "It's all you've ever wanted" and you got two and all I ever hear is how you can't manage that, so no way I'm doing three.  Thank goodness I didn't.  In a healthy relationship, I would have loved to have had more little ones, but not with all of this dysfunction.  Another dream gone up in smoke.  Facing what's coming, I wouldn't want my kids to be any younger than they are right now, so at least it worked out sticking to that.  Adulthood is really not that far off for mine.  I feel sorry for those with tiny ones, but maybe in some sense that has its benefits too. 

[Notwendy]

There's the concept of parentification and emotional incest. While emotional incest sounds creepy- it isn't about inappropriate touch but emotionally making the child a "little man" and confiding in them. Parentification involves enlisting the child to take care of the parent's emotions.

And triangulation.

It's not appropriate to discuss adding to the family with a 6 year old child. That's something to discuss with a spouse. It's an adult decision and an adult responsibility. Sure, he wants a sibling. If you were to ask him if he wants a puppy or a pony, he'd be excited about that too.

He's 6 years old[/i] and being triangulated. They laugh and fantasize together? Do you see what is happening here? This child is now her "little man" and emotional caretaker. Asking the two of you to not fight? Is this the job of a 6 year old?

There's a push-pull to a relationship with BPD. She likely senses you are at more of an emotional distance.  It may be that the distance creates some fear for her. While emotional regulation is difficult for someone with BPD, it's possible she's motivated to do this due to sensing your distance.

I think it's hard, maybe impossible, to control your wife's interactions with your son, as there are times when you are not there with the two of them. This situation existed for me growing up as well. BPD mother would take me aside to confide in me about issues with my father. This was not appropriate and some of it was TMI. I think what did help was spending time away from her, with my father's family, and being around adults who didn't put me in an adult role. Telling you not to fight and discussing adding to the family are not the realm of a 6 year old. I hope you can find opportunities where he can be just a kid.

[ForeverDad]

He's 6 years old and being triangulated. They laugh and fantasize together? Do you see what is happening here? This child is now her "little man" and emotional caretaker. Asking the two of you to not fight? Is this the job of a 6 year old?

I called the police one day when my spouse threatened to kill me and she was so angry with me that she put our son in his room, crying.  It wasn't her first rant and rage but I called.  My divorce lawyer said he was a former police officer and said policy is to separate in a domestic dispute incident.  They did try but my quietly sobbing son wouldn't leave my arms and so they just said to "work it out".

Later that night she was bouncing our preschooler on her knee, having him hold her breasts (she had stopped breastfeeding over 2 years earlier) and singing disparaging jingles about dad.

We separated after that and divorced.  Though he is grown and an adult now she still blames me to him.  I told him he needs to set a boundary about that but he does see that as a solution, yet.  To this day she insists on daily calls.

[15years]

The so called calmer period has ended. Looking back at this, I'd say it lasted about one month. At first, she was motivated to be happy with the relationship, but that motivation is slowly being forgotten. I was hesitant at first to say it had ended, because she's still to this day quickly bouncing back to good behavior because of her fear of abandonment.

For me, it now feels even more intolerable to be treated badly. I have this feeling like "this is way too intimate, you don't even know me!" - I'm intrigued to see where that new realization will lead me.


Thanks for all the support on this thread.

[15years]

However, I really suspect that it's about to go downhill again soon. She will have to come up with a slightly fresh approach to the "15years is abusive"-idea, but she is creative, so she will find it.
- Maybe more criticism for my present behavior.
- Further expectations of taking responsibility for my shortcomings. Expecting that I bring up past issues, to show her I haven't forgotten. Criticism for not doing that and using that as an excuse to break her own promise about forgiving me.
- Me not meeting her expectations of commitment and showing of affection.
- Me not taking any steps to fix our relationship.
- Unmet sexual expectations.
- Me accidentally saying or doing something stupid that shows her I haven't changed.
 
The list could go on I guess.

Looking back at the first post in this thread, I was spot on. We are really back to the "15years is abusive" narrative at this stage, like I suspected. It will only get more intense from here I suppose. All the examples of how she would find her way back to blaming me for her feelings has come true more or less.

But really it's not about me of course, so I feel bad for her suffering.

[Manic Miner]

For me, it now feels even more intolerable to be treated badly. I have this feeling like "this is way too intimate, you don't even know me!" - I'm intrigued to see where that new realization will lead me.

Don't shoot the messenger, but in my case, the more I read about BPD, gained more conscious about this condition, learning more tools and everything, the less I had tolerance for more.

I cannot explain why, it should be the opposite. I can only guess. I think I realized it won't get any better, it is what it is. Before knowing about all these awful traits like mirroring, projections, I kind of fooled myself about her getting better, going through a bad period, difficulties of life, coincidences, accepting the blame etc.

Like you, there's more realization in me when I talk to her and listen to her comments about me to just say - we've been 23y together but you don't seem to really know me anymore. Nor you want to actually listen and see who I am. I still kind of hope for something, but, yeah.

[Notwendy]

It is demoralizing to feel cast in the role of the "bad guy" - the cause of the emotional pain they are feeling. I think one benefit of learning about BPD behaviors is realizing that their discomfort isn't about you as much as it's a projection of their own emotional distress. With this understanding, it's possible to not take it personally, not be reactive, not JADE and add to the drama.

On the other hand, it can make you wonder if they can see who you really are.

I think that can vary, as BPD is on a spectrum and ultimately something people decide for themselves.

The calm times are part of a cycle, and if the calm periods fit this pattern, I think it's possible to observe that. The rages/dissociation serves as a release valve for the emotions that cause them discomfort. After the rages, there is a calm time because the feelings have been taken care of. But we don't stop feeling. PwBPD have difficulty managing their uncomfortable feelings. So more feelings happen until they need to be released and the cycle continues.