Oh hell

[StartingHealing]

 
Here we go.  Figured something was up over the last couple days.

Maybe I should have put this in the thread I previously did titled How do I but, anyway. Cat Familiar

Currently, I have not yet made any decisions on removing myself from this relationship.  I would like, if possible, to renew - refresh it.   Or at least get to a point where I can say that I did every single damn thing possible.

Just got a text message from wBPD in which she is expressing how miserable she is over our lack of sexual intimacy.  Yes, it sucks. It sucks for me too!

I don't know if this is a attempt to manipulate me or am I being defensive on this subject. 

She is using language like this:

I'm miserable.  I've tried back and forth everything.
Nothing has changed u to be closer to me.
I can't do this anymore.
Bcuz it was getting frustrating to not have my lover in my life.
U refuse to change!
U want me to stay in this life without being loved physically.
I can't anymore.
I'm not going to fight you.
I'm not trying to start a fight.

so on and so forth
until this:

this is me saying. I'm done waiting.
I'm now going to actively pursue some sex in my life!

Yes it's been a long spell without sexual congress.

Yes she has shamed me over my sexual performance previously many times.

Yes, her satisfaction sexual is my 100% responsibility.  According to her.

Yes, she has some body image issues.
 
Yes, she has the covid 20. 

Yes, I would really like to be sexually intimate with her once again.

Yes,  there have been times where she has gone off like this (on different subjects) and then when I respond, she will then reject what I am doing or attempting to do.

Now, a text over how she doesn't want to start over.  She doesn't want to leave me.  And adding in how I was the one that shut down ALL the romantic things that SHE wanted to do / attempted to do.

Holy PLEASE READ.

And of course it's blew up into the entire length of the marriage which I know, (I was there) is totally not correct in regards to romance and sex.

I'm trying hard to work through my emotions at the moment.  My feelings are currently this:

 Anger,  (feeling attacked again, why is this 100% my responsibility?) 
Fear, (of the threats she has made previously)
 Sadness, (It's a PLEASE READty situation on both sides)
A touch of resentment ( well, normal.  Not good for going forward
                                           working on that)
Weary

 I could be mistaken here but it seems like she is using manipulating language and not seeing her part in the mess.

Fine. 

Is this a BPD way of communicating feelings?   I mean seriously?

So now, the question is what to do.  Do I text her back saying that we are going to talk about it when I get home from work?  That hasn't ended well in the past.

Do I start initiating when I get home?  From prior events like this, when I did do that, I was rejected because according to her, all I was doing was reacting to her so somehow that wasn't acceptable. 

It's like I'm in a double bind and I don't yet know which action to take to get out of it.

Cat I get your point with the analogy of horses, but after they pull back so many times, do you keep starting?  Or do you back off for a while and try it again later? 

Yes, I see how this is playing into her own story of being a victim.  And she is attempting to move me into either the rescue side or abuser side of the Karpman triangle.

Can somebody help me with some insight here?  Please?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[thankful person]

Hi starting healing,

I’m not sure how much I can help, but it was a very similar situation with my dbpdw which let me here to the forum about 18 months ago.

A little background: We are a lesbian couple and she “stole” me from my previous male partner through love and seduction. It was a long distance relationship, and as soon as we met physically, things went rapidly downhill, the rest is history… My wife was sexually abused and raped by multiple men as a child and teenager. Some of what she says is hard to believe, but having seen her PTSD nightmares from which I couldn’t rouse her, I do know it was horrific. It may not seem relevant, but here’s the thing: she claims not to want a man, but also has said it was the best sex she’s ever had. As a woman I actually feel that I’m simply not even physically strong enough to contend with this.

In our case the trigger for her saying she was so unsatisfied and unhappy with our non-existent sex life was the birth of our first baby. She is the child bearing partner and breast feeds and co-sleeps with them which stopped any form of sex for a long time and of course this was totally my fault along with everything else. She threatened to get in sex partners while I was out at work, whilst she cared for our infant baby. It never happened though.

I read in your other post that you have been doing much learning and improving your communication with your wife etc. I just wanted to let you know that somehow things have absolutely turned a corner here so there is still hope for your relationship, should you choose to stay. Things seemed to have completely turned around within about six months, with my wife’s attitude towards me completely changing. The sex life is taking longer to recover due to the birth of another breast feeding co-sleeping baby… but things have improved. The main reason I think she is treating me with more respect is the classic “no one can make you feel inferior without your consent”… or something along those lines. I am extremely careful and mindful about any communication with my wife. Of course, things aren’t perfect, but she screeches a lot less and blames me a lot less. I have stopped being desperate to please her and by and large I have stopped apologising. It does seem that when I accepted blame and apologised, and was extremely upset when she was angry or unhappy, it fuelled the fire and actually seemed to validate, but actually confirm her splitting that I was a bad useless person unworthy of love or respect etc.

Now I acknowledge (validate) but give little attention to any crazy accusations or implied blame etc… and she seems to get over these things incredibly quickly. It is still a challenging life and that is the life we choose to remain in, for whatever reason. I hope my story has helped in some way. I’m not so good at giving advice but more so at sharing my own journey. And I have certainly also been confused about my wife’s texting about how she wants to be seduced or whatever and then wondering ok so today is not the right time as that will only make her angry, but when will it be?

I wish you all the best.

[StartingHealing]

Thank you thankful person.

Much to think about.

Meanwhile:

On the way home from work, I called a mental health help line because I needed to express some emotions.   Yes, I need to get a grip on my own mental health. 

After I got home yesterday, it was tense, as to be expected.  After she got back from giving a swim lesson, and then she blew up at me.  I started to respond in a way that was feeding her rant.  Went medium chill when I realized that and she still went on,  I was moving around the house, and she was following me.  Didn't remember to leave as a means to enforce boundaries.   Yeah, it was a discard thing I think.

Between the time she left and got back, had an interesting conversation with her son who is living with us as a stop gap measure so he can get back on a even keel financially.   He confirmed most things.  Which is a good thing for me since that was confirmation that I wasn't just making crap up in my head.

Shaming language, guilt, need to be right, insults, global statements, lots of always, never, all,  goodness sakes,
lots of attempted rules for thee but not for me.

I wonder how much of what she said was projection? 

Some of the statements she said:
You made me this way.
I have so much sexual energy that my head wants to explode.
If your unit works with someone else I'm going to divorce you.
You have made me get to this point that I want to die.
I'm not waiting on you any more.  There have been 3 heterosexual men that have reached out to me on social media.  They don't seem to have an issue with how I look.
If I run across someone that is interested I'm going to go ahead and do it! 
All we are is legal room mates.
I told you that all I needed was you!  But you never stepped up as a man to do that. I didn't need money, I didn't need things, all I needed was you.  (Here is a kicker to that.  Her ideal is enmeshment.  Nothing was ever enough.  Losing friends for her, losing family [such as they are] for her, losing hobbies for her, how much would be enough?)
Women need a reason to have sex.  men only need a place.

Sigh.

Add in that she was doing the push pull before this..

I'm feeling very weary.

Usually, there is some kind of drama once a week, and it's appearing that she has a large blow up once a month.

 Taking a piece from the stoics, my mind has been complicit in accepting the insults / guilt / shame that she has thrown at me. 

I don't know how to move forward from where I find myself at the moment.

Peace

[StartingHealing]

Hello y'all,

I'm really having a time with my emotions at the moment.

I feel like I have failed.   I feel like I wasn't enough.  I feel like I've been gutted.  I feel angry that I am not enough / strong enough.

I'm thankful that I haven't somehow ended up totally enmeshed with her. 

Peace

[thankful person]

Starting healing,

Remember your previous post, “is this a milestone”? I feel like I’m invalidating you if I’m to say actually you have not failed and you are doing your best. Such is the ingrained dreaded “invalidation”! Arggghh. I have always been an encouraging and supportive person but I’ve learnt that it’s invalidating.

You are having such a hard time at the moment. I have been through such hell myself with my wife’s treatment of me and her crushing words and threats to leave/divorce/find other better sex partners.

These good people on here helped me in several ways and I’m trying to help others too.

You have a right to be happy. You have a right to be respected and not feel anxious and attacked constantly. I hated myself when I joined the forum, because I broke my ex’s heart when I left him for bpd wife. At some point it struck me that I also had been enmeshed with him, and he actually didn’t treat me that well. And I was able to forgive myself. I wish it hadn’t gone down the way it did. People still judge me for it. But I have been working on self-resilience and self-compassion. Mostly because I want to model these for my children and it can’t be faked. So that was what motivated me to finally search deep and find and create some inner strength.

I have always worked with children, and in one book it encouraged me to talk to myself as you would a small child (or friend or whatever). Try to stop the negative self talk. Tell yourself you are doing your best under difficult circumstances. Don’t forget that bpd is one of the most complex and impossible things a person can have. Many therapists refuse to even attempt to treat a person with bpd diagnosis.

I was also encouraged on here to work on self-care. My wife had made many crazy rules over the years, like she didn’t want me to have more showers than her, she didn’t want me to take photos of our children or send them to my mother, she didn’t want me to play the piano. Self-care for me came alongside putting up boundaries. I gained a dizzying kind of confidence when I started to “defy” my wife and slowly started breaking her rules. Some things were much harder than others. But she slowly started to treat me with more respect. Try and think of something pleasurable you can do, just for yourself. Don’t worry about whether she wants you to do it. Maybe something you used to do but stopped doing for her, like idk seeing a friend or something. I do think you will feel better if you can reconnect with things you used to enjoy. This also gives your wife the message that she does not rule you.

As I said, the total lack of sex continued for quite some time here, which I put down to the babies always demanding her attention. But the interesting thing is that once I stopped apologising and trying hard to do and say the right thing in impossible circumstances, she let it go.

An unrelated example happened yesterday. My wife had driven our family to a new beach near our new home. She drove up and down the seafront a couple of times wondering where to park the car. I suggested a car park. As my wife is pregnant, after a few minutes walking towards the main beach front area she started wailing and complaining and kept having to stop. After ten minutes of this she decided we’re all going home so we didn’t visit the beach or get ice cream or anything, just went back to the car and she drove us all home. With her constantly complaining and screeching that it all was my fault. And I wished I’d never said, “Hey you could park here..” But I just stated my case, “I didn’t tell you you had to park there… it was my suggestion, your choice to follow it…” And she said, “I just wanted to park…” So whilst still blaming me.. she almost admitted that as the driver, it was actually her choice where she parked. I let it go. She just wanted to blame me. She knew it wasn’t actually my fault. And now, looking back, I think all the blame on me for no sex was exactly the same thing.

I don’t say much these days if she complains about our sex life. I’ve found “mmm hmm” seems to settle many things I used to argue or defend.

[StartingHealing]

Thankful Person

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply.

I admit that I at times go way emotional.  Lots of old "crap" to work through / get rid of.

From her words, she is convinced that I do not find her physically attractive.  The covid 20, etc. etc.  I have finally realized that it really isn't the physical, it's her behavior.   I've found this place back in Nov last year and I have been working on a lot of things. 

I'm having trouble with validating her emotional outbursts because to me it's like she is attacking me.  Does that make sense?

IDK if I"m reading her outbursts over the lack of sex correctly.  I admit I'm a guy and I process things differently than a gal does.  I get hung up on the words, cause to me words have meaning.  While it appears that to her the words are a means to attempt to communicate?  and / or to manipulate me in some manner.

If I'm figuring it right, she still is wanting to be sexually intimate with me but she is saying the opposite.  Right?  H__l if I know.   

Thank you for the encouragement on me being in the middle of a really jacked position.  Yes, your right on that many professionals will not see people with a personality disorder.

I know that I have codependent traits, and then add in some trauma bonding... Holy S__t you know?

My gut has been in knots for the last couple of days.  Emotional stuff you know?  I'm also thinking that there may be some narcissistic things going along with her BPD.   

I also am thinking that she is also acting out because I have been putting boundaries in place, slowly, because its new. Plus I think that she is also feeling jealous over the time that I spend on school work.  It's like a part time job.  But it's for the future.  Where I can work remote and that opens up the possibility of traveling in a converted school bus.  AKA a skoolie.

It's really hard for me to move into the space where I know that I know that I know it's not me.  I admit that there was some times recently in the couple of days leading up to her explosion, she was doing small advances towards me sexually but I could not get to the point where I could overcome my fear of being "punished" because of things not going exactly the way she had envisioned them. It's really hard to relax and enjoy with that kind of pressure, not to mention the performance pressure as well.

Then there is the ... she acts like a child in so many ways.  As a parent that gets kind of confusing you know?  I know that she's a adult but ... 

She's still having smaller outbursts.  She likes the text thing to attempt to beat me over the head on how her view is the correct one.  She will hear a song that she thinks has some kind of message and will want me to listen to it. 

I honestly do not know at the moment how to communicate with her to a point where I can validate anything.  I also am being careful to not be invalidating as much as possible.

I don't know if or when this situation will change.  I have found myself thinking that it would be nice to just be alone. 

For a clearer picture, she was involved in a workplace accident and after 9 surgeries on one leg, .. she uses it as being a victim and as an excuse. 

I don't get it.  I really don't.  why the apparent need to be totally enmeshed with someone?  Is that an attempt to fill the hole she feels? 

I have gotten well meaning advice that we should go our own ways but then the protection / provision / providing thing in me kicks in..   

I'm trying to change, I'm trying new things, I'm working on so much stuff all at the same time, attempting to keep the boat floating, and things like this, what she has done with the explosion, the shaming, insults, threats, and I'm trying to see through it, to the emotional content but at the moment it's not going so good.

Ironic that she's the one that threatens self deletion but there are times, in the last couple of days, that I think, that wouldn't be that bad of a decision for myself.

Here is another thing that keeps rattling around in my brain.  If I do go forward and initiate and she's not totally cool with it, then I could be accused of something. 

I think that I'm a good person over all.  I go to work, I take care of the house, oil changes in the cars, handle the bills, I am not intentionally hurting or being rude or manipulating, and , and, and,  but that seems like that isn't enough for her.  Like 0 credit at all. 

I'm rambling here.  I think I'll stop.  I need to do some school work to keep that going.

Thank you again for your kind words and for the support.  I do appreciate it.

Peace

[Cat Familiar]

Receiving insults in the sexual arena has got to be one of the most devastating attacks in a relationship. Recovering from that and moving forward is a difficult bridge to rebuild.

Perhaps this might be a good topic to explore in marital counseling. That you both want to rebuild your intimacy is a good thing. How to do it, without opening old wounds, could be a way to broach a short term round of therapy.

As in the horse analogy, think of a very wild and frightened animal. Try offering a tiny behavior and notice the response. Back away if negative emotions are heightened. Move a tiny step forward if there is calmness and acceptance. Repeat over and over. The biggest mistake is to try and move forward too fast. If so, then back way off. And start from the very beginning again.

[StartingHealing]

Receiving insults in the sexual arena has got to be one of the most devastating attacks in a relationship. Recovering from that and moving forward is a difficult bridge to rebuild.

Add in that everything is 100% my responsibility. If she doesn't achieve satisfaction then it's my fault.   "If certain parts don't stand at attention, it's because you don't find me attractive.  If you don't go to sleep facing me then you don't want to be with me, if you don't agree with my choice of video entertainment then you don't want to know me, listen to this song, this explains what I've been saying!"  Add in the "punishment" from when things don't go exactly as she has envisioned... Any wonder I'm leery?

Perhaps this might be a good topic to explore in marital counseling. That you both want to rebuild your intimacy is a good thing. How to do it, without opening old wounds, could be a way to broach a short term round of therapy.

Back before things got so nuts,  we did talk about therapy.  She indicated that groups, going to therapy, hypnosis, were all signs of a weak person and that since she wasn't weak, I needed to be as strong as she is.  I doubt that she would be willing to engage in anything that would possibly put doubt on her of perhaps not being 100% correct about everything 100% of the time. Even when she indicated that I needed help, after a couple of weeks going to a group, she started in on why it was only me that could do that, yada, yada,yada. And then it turned into a thing, and I stopped going. Guess it didn't fit her narrative you know? I'm starting to consider that perhaps there is more than just BPD going on. 

As in the horse analogy, think of a very wild and frightened animal. Try offering a tiny behavior and notice the response. Back away if negative emotions are heightened. Move a tiny step forward if there is calmness and acceptance. Repeat over and over. The biggest mistake is to try and move forward too fast. If so, then back way off. And start from the very beginning again.

That is what I have been attempting to do.  I think though that she is sensing a change in me and that is making her even more spooky. I attempt to validate and also to not be invalidating. It's fricking frustrating! I know that is just me in the moment. And all these techniques / tools are like really really new to me, I only found this space last Nov, but d@mn I am trying.

[Cat Familiar]

When you begin to change your responses to your partner, oftentimes this will trigger an extinction burst

Scroll through the above link for a video on this topic.

She has had a history of manipulative behavior. When this no longer works the same way, she tries even harder and becomes more abusive. This is likely an extinction burst. Wait it out, and it’s likely that she will try a different strategy when the old patterns don’t work as usual.

[15years]

Hi,

The majority of my relationship struggles is about sex and sexuality. Just mentioning that so you know you're not alone.

I've finally let go of my anxiety about whether I'm a rapist or not. I've really been in hell emotionally for a few years because of that.

She always wants me to drastically change how I behave sexually. Now I'm not that interested anymore.

[StartingHealing]

When you begin to change your responses to your partner, oftentimes this will trigger an extinction burst

Thank you Cat

Scroll through the above link for a video on this topic.

She has had a history of manipulative behavior. When this no longer works the same way, she tries even harder and becomes more abusive. This is likely an extinction burst. Wait it out, and it’s likely that she will try a different strategy when the old patterns don’t work as usual.

That is what I am currently doing.  Will see what happens.
 I'm also looking into what I need to do if she does follow through with the threat of leaving.  Not going down that path, but for my own self worth, having an idea of what "could" happen in that situation will be helpful for me.  You know?

Thank you once again for your wisdom and insight.

[StartingHealing]

Hi,

The majority of my relationship struggles is about sex and sexuality. Just mentioning that so you know you're not alone.

Thank you for that 15years. part of it I think is gaslighting on her part.  I remember back and it wasn't like this.  It took years of her doing her thing towards me and I didn't have the techniques / tools that I do now for self protection.  Deep wounding you know?

I've finally let go of my anxiety about whether I'm a rapist or not. I've really been in hell emotionally for a few years because of that.

She always wants me to drastically change how I behave sexually. Now I'm not that interested anymore.

I don't know about the struggle snuggle part it's more of me figuring out what she's apt to do.  the fantasy got me and with those goggles off now.. It's like her behaviors / verbal salad are running counter to what she is seeking and I'm not certain if I have got a grip on the typical meanings or one of the other things I am trying to get a grip on, what and where is she being "honest" in what she is seeking and what she isn't.  If that makes any sense.

[Every day]

Just chiming in that my uBPD husband’s complaints about sex eventually motivated him to pick a “sex therapist.”  That therapist realizes that sex requires intimacy which requires communication, which is at the core of most of our issues. 

Perhaps finding someone who can help you as a “sex therapist” but also has other areas of therapeutic expertise as well, might help and your partner might get behind that.

[StartingHealing]

Just chiming in that my uBPD husband’s complaints about sex eventually motivated him to pick a “sex therapist.”  That therapist realizes that sex requires intimacy which requires communication, which is at the core of most of our issues.  

Perhaps finding someone who can help you as a “sex therapist” but also has other areas of therapeutic expertise as well, might help and your partner might get behind that.

Prior to the last outburst, back when it did seem like we were communicating, (I have my doubts about it now) there was a time that going to therapy, or a group meeting, or something that involved other people outside of her and me, was squashed.  In her words, "Only weak people need to go to therapy or a group.  Since I'm not a weak person, I don't need to go"  

I don't know for certain, but it appears that she was attempting to reinforce the isolation of me.  

There was also a time where she had me convinced that I had a certain addiction.  I found a group, went once a week for a short while, then another blow up about me going to this group.

 " How can you talk to strangers about X, why can't you talk to me your wife?  Don't you trust me? Why can't I go to a group where I talk about X?  For such a strong man, you sure are a weak a$$ pu@@y"  and hours upon hours more.  This from a person that is very skilled at gaslighting and manipulation.  Do I really want to open up about X to a person like that?

This continued to a point where I agreed to stop going to the group.  I had figured out that I didn't have the addiction that she claimed that I had, and I had continued going to the group because it was nice to be in a place where people were working on healing and being better people.  

The attempted consuming of me.. I can't fill the hole that she feels.  

[thankful person]

In her words, "Only weak people need to go to therapy or a group.  Since I'm not a weak person, I don't need to go"  

I don't know for certain, but it appears that she was attempting to reinforce the isolation of me.  

The attempted consuming of me.. I can't fill the hole that she feels.  

My wife also refused to attend therapy, either with or without me, and also “forbade” me from attending on my own. Her reason was that she didn’t want to be talked about behind her back, or for other people to know our business. I suspect the real reason was that she didn’t want my sneaking suspicion that actually she was nuts to be validated by the therapist. For this reason I am stunned to hear that so many bpd spouses are willing to attend couple therapy with their partner. If they have done their usual work of isolating you from people you love and things you enjoy, then this is likely to come out in therapy and they fear their “true nature” will be discovered. I think many of our problems stemmed from the resentment I felt towards my wife for “ruining my life”. How can you be attracted to someone you resent so much, and who is so critical of your every move? Since I have been fighting back and regained much of the control I had lost, I actually like my wife a lot more. Therapy was definitely a something I felt I could benefit from, but I knew it would be a major battle (even if I went alone), and one I never got round to tackling. I used so much support and advice from here, and the bpd books I was reading instead. I often wonder if I could have found such a good therapist.

[15years]

My W doesn't like professional help either, and doesn't like being talked about. And she thinks the money spent on therapy could be spent on vacation which would also be more healing than therapy. She would say that therapy equals wanting someone else to fix your problems.

Any relationship or environment needs a bit of gossip to be healthy, that total loyalty is not good.

In stop walking on eggshells they talked about Unconventional vs. Conventional bpd. The more conventional the person is, the more they accept a diagnosis and the more open they are to therapy. But conventional bpd is more rare than unconventional.

[StartingHealing]

More stuff

Before that, I'm thankful for all the people and the resources I have found here. 

Cat Familiar,  How long does an extinction burst last? 

I know that WwBPD/NPD is stressing over a jury duty summons.  She has taken actions and she should be able to get out of it.  Yes it's a hassle factor, yes it's dealing with paper pushers etc. 

I still am validating, not being invalidating, waiting for her to figure things out, no - JADE, doing SET, etc.

She is claiming via text that me being chatty isn't going to work.  That me and J "cleaning" now, ... that shows that we were disrespecting before? Like what?

 " I'm absolutely done with not being first in known life!"  I come first for me now. No one else!  So ur chit chatty in not going to get u back in my life as a couple.  Not happening! I'm on the hunt for a lover now!

Second text

this is exactly what this family has done to me every year!  I'm 500% done! I need to repair my heart & soul now!

How much of this is projection?  And how does a person, if I choose to, respond to the texts in a validating manner without validating the unvalid? 

Peace