Finally did it- now what?

[WitzEndWife]

Well, folks, I finally did it. I got him out with an OP and divorce papers about a month ago, went and stayed with my sister for a week, and then came back, only to let the guilt wear on me and allow him to cryptically manipulate me through Instagram into sending him a message. That led to him worming his way to "get some of his things" - as he was supposedly moving out of town to stay with a friend. That led to him going to a "farewell" dinner with me, and then asking if he could stay for a few days while he packed up, as he was no longer welcome where he was staying (laying on thick that I threw him out like a "piece of garbage" and re-traumatized him). That led to him coming back to the house, but doing no packing, and continuously begging me to reconsider the divorce. We were getting into huge fights and he was guilting me and wailing and making me want to harm myself. I was trying to be kind by letting him back for what I thought was a few days. He saw it as a foot back in the door, apparently.

Finally, when he started threatening me with financial ruin (telling me his lawyer was going to force me to pay 100 percent maintenance for him for the next five years) and causing yet more huge blow-up arguments, I told my lawyer what was going on. She told me to get him out of the house. So, I had to do things basically all over again and force him to go to a hotel. He told his lawyer everything as well, and his lawyer tried to make me seem like the manipulative one who was giving him "mixed messages" and that I only wanted him out once my H asked me for money. Total B.S., of course.

Anyway, I've been told not to respond to him whatsoever, which I have been adhering to. He is doing his best to guilt me and tell me that I'm holding his things "hostage" because I won't let him pop in and out of the house at will to retrieve things and won't communicate with him directly. This has been a nightmare. I think there's a lot I'll need to unravel about my instinct to caretake his feelings in order to control how he feels about me - not wanting to be seen as a bad person and all of that. I keep trying to remind myself that we wouldn't be here if he hadn't been abusive and cruel to me in the first place.

It's hard - how do you disconnect from the guilt while going through all of this?

[Cat Familiar]

How to disconnect from the guilt?

Intellectually you understand that you’ve tried as hard as you could. You’ve done more for him than most people would. They would have pulled the plug long ago.

That said, he still is able to trigger your feelings of guilt. You want to be a kind person. You’re not uncaring. It’s hard when you’re an empathetic person.

I get it. I’ve had those challenges too.

Two strategies that work for me:

1. I imagine I’m another person witnessing this drama from the outside, who has no connection to either party. Responding from that POV, I can see the situation from a neutral position and no longer feel triggered.

2. Modeling the behavior of someone who is exemplary in not giving a 
If you have watched any footage of the J6 hearings, you might have seen Eric Herschman, a humorously foul-mouthed lawyer for the former Trump administration.

There is a clip where he speaks about confronting Jeffery Clark (or was it Eastman?) where he says, “The only two words I want to hear coming out of your mouth are ‘Orderly transition.’”

It won’t seem natural to adopt these strategies, but nothing about your current reality seems natural at the moment. In addition, you probably already have strategies that you use seamlessly at your work, which can be utilized in this context.

Remember that you are a kind (too kind) and caring person, and now is the time to take care of yourself.   

[Notwendy]

I have been following your story for a while. You have supported this man with no benefit to you and he has played to your guilt to keep you doing that for him. I applaud you for sticking up for yourself. This is huge.

From your post, I can see how contact with him wears down your reserve. Oh please let me get my things, oh please have a farewell dinner with me---each one of these requests is the camel's nose under the tent. The request doesn't seem unreasonable to you, and you feel guilty so you agree. Next thing you know, the camel is back in your house.

Why do you give in to the guilt? This is the key. It's a co-dependent act. You justify this to yourself as being the nice person. What you are actually doing is relieving yourself of the feeling of guilt. It's a self centered act to manage your own discomfort. It's also enabling him and that isn't helping him. Once we can see how being codependent is due to our not being able to manage our own discomfort, and is actually a self centered action, it can help us stop this behavior.

For those of us who have been codependent (me too)- we need to look at this as a way of keeping us from feeling uncomfortable feelings. It's similar to why people use drugs or alcohol, or any other addiction because, it helps us to escape these feelings.

So your Ex knows how to make you feel guilty. You don't feel good when you feel guilty so you give in, and it relieves your guilt temporarily but it doesn't help in the long run as enabling keeps you stuck. Giving in is your drug. When he appeals to your guilt, he's handing you an emotional crack pipe. Don't take it.

When your T advises you to not respond to him or contact him, it's because the T knows that this is like offering a drink to someone who is an alcoholic. And just like the alcoholic who wants to think they can handle "just one"- they can't and one leads to another to another and soon they are back to drinking. When you think you can handle "just a farewell dinner" "just one phone call"  - you can't. Don't do it. His agenda isn't "one drink" or "one trip to get his things" either.

Stay strong! Feeling guilty, shame, feeling like the bad person- it all feels terrible but what is a feeling? A feeling can't hurt you. It doesn't last. But I will assume it's been a while since you allowed yourself to feel your feelings. So, you can get through this.

Since codependency is like a drug, you may go through an emotional withdrawal. You've been in this pattern for a while now. Please reach out for support- from your T, from a 12 step group CODA group, whoever can help you stay strong and get through this.

I have been on this codependency road too and know you can do it!

[15years]

I read about your plans to leave him this spring and have been wondering how it went. Thanks for reporting back to us! Sounds like you're determined to go through with the divorce. Everything didn't work out exactly like you planned but you're still on track.

[WitzEndWife]

Cat - I literally LOLd at the "Orderly transition" comment! Ah, yes, that is a vibe. I need to tap into whatever energy that is. And I think the observation point is good to make, too. I keep journaling from that vantage point, zooming out to see the whole picture, instead of homing in on the tiny pinpoint where he is texting me about how I'm the only person he has ever cohabitated with who has held his things hostage.

Notwendy - You are SO spot on here. I am caretaking his feelings in order to avoid the "icky" feelings of being rejected and badmouthed because that is a source of trauma for me. As a kid, I was bullied horribly by the "mean girls" at my school and they would start rumors about me and say mean things behind my back, as well as ostracize me from group activities. I spent so much time alone and sad, feeling like there must be something horribly wrong with me for the kids to avoid me like they did. I think as an adult, I tried so hard to never feel that feeling again. I get really triggered when someone thinks poorly of me for some reason or another and I cannot stand it when someone doesn't like me. In my imagination, he is going around telling everyone who will listen how cruel and heartless I am for "throwing him out like garbage" and I feel awful. Not that I don't also care for him as a person, but I think the combination of that and the full throated rejection of me do a number on me for sure.

If nothing else, it helps to talk about this with people who understand. I have therapy tomorrow and that is immensely helpful, and my dad is here with me now, so I am not alone.

[Notwendy]

Yes, we get it here. Please stay strong and it will get better. Your childhood trauma is real and when people don't like you now or say something mean about you now- you feel it as if you were that child again. But you are an adult now. You can manage this and glad you have support.

[ForeverDad]

You've only been married for 6 years or so.  That you would have to support him after divorce for 5 years is ridiculous.  (You cannot trust anything he or even his lawyer claims.  You know, garbage in = garbage out.)

Your marriage would not be viewed as a long term marriage.  And his problems, whatever they are and however long the list is, are pre-existing, they existed before the marriage.  You are NOT responsible for him; he's an adult and not a child, he was an adult before the marriage and will be an adult after the marriage ends.

Your lawyer will fight for you not to have to support him during the divorce (spousal support) and to keep any risk of post-marriage support to a minimum, or zero (alimony).

Your task is to view the upcoming divorce process as businesslike as possible.  Communication is through your lawyer.  Anything personal he has in the home, he collects only with you there with either someone you trust with you, or a police officer to ensure it goes smoothly.

Make sure any joint accounts (bank or credit) are closed so he can't raid them.

Forget about being kind or fair.  Sadly, these otherwise excellent qualities would be used to sabotage you, as you've already discovered.  That why I used the word "businesslike" above.  Step aside emotionally and handle it like a business merger being unwound.

[Notwendy]

There is so much wise advice here from people who have gone through this process legally.

I do get the guilt and fear, and people pleasing pull.  Not complying with BPD mother was a scary situation as a child. Kids depend on their parents. She's a skilled manipulator and it's how she gets by and she's very much able to elicit guilt and obligation on my part. It's a horrible feeling, but feels worse to give in to enabling her.

You have to manage your discomfort with being called a bad person.  How do you do that? Boundaries. Just because someone says you are a bad person, that does not make it true. You know you are not a bad person. What helped me was to substitute something absurd for the accusation. If your H calls you a pink elephant - does that make you one? If he tells other people you are a pink elephant, that doesn't make you one either. If they were to believe that, doesn't make you one either. It means they are delusional or easily fooled.

It took me some work ( 12 step groups, counseling) to establish a firm knowledge of who I am- not what others say I am but you can do it. Your responsibility is to you. Please take care of you!

[WitzEndWife]

ForeverDad - That's a good strategy, treating this like a business transaction. I just have to leave my emotions to my journal and to therapy and deal with him through the lawyer like a former business partner. As to the spousal support, I was reading that my state rarely ever awards longterm support, and only really in the cases that the supported party is unable to work or needs a period of time to get back into the workforce. I highly doubt he will be awarded any kind of longterm support.

Notwendy - I like that tip about naming it something ridiculous. That does help. Believe it or not, I am getting better in terms of my self esteem and sense of self, but obviously this is the "grand boss" test of it all because he will try to hurl all kinds of things my way in an effort to regain control over me. That's the problem with going after smart people as partners - if they have it in them to manipulate, look out!

I'm dealing with a number of feelings in addition to the guilt. One thought is almost an envy feeling, like the idea that he is going to go off and start this new life with half of the money that I earned and, after it is all said and done, is going to go skipping off into the sunset into a new relationship and I'll be here, all traumatized and lonely and broken, with a HUGE mess, literally and figuratively, to clean up (home repairs, his hoarding of car parts and cardboard boxes). I know this is not an accurate picture, but I need to capture how I'm feeling while I'm processing everything.

[Cat Familiar]

Whatever else you think of Eric Herschmann, this is a master class in assertiveness. Certainly the same objective can be done more gently, but the confident attitude is something to strive for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XDzsqltimU

[WitzEndWife]

Whatever else you think of Eric Herschmann, this is a master class in assertiveness. Certainly the same objective can be done more gently, but the confident attitude is something to strive for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XDzsqltimU

It is perfect for this moment.
"I only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth from now on: orderly transition" is going to be on refrain in my head secretly to him every time he texts me or our lawyers communicate.

[GaGrl]

Cat, I'm loving Eric Herschman -- he pulls no punches.

WitsEnd, if your STBX is focused and giving you a hassle about his belongings, and if those very belongings are giving you stress, can you do something to rid yourself of them?

Suggestion -- get a storage unit (may have to put it in his name), prepay for three months, and move ALL his "stuff" in there. Take photos, make an inventory of it all, and inform his lawyer as to where STBX can retrieve his belongings.

Then block STBX and deal only through lawyers.

[Cat Familiar]

Great suggestion, GaGrl!

[Notwendy]

I think it's a common fear that an ex will go off and have a great time with someone else and be their best self to them, when they weren't their best self before. However, that isn't going to happen. They, themselves, are disordered and will most likely match up with someone else to engage with them in the disordered dynamics. There may be a "honeymoon" phase where they are being on their best behavior and love bombing the new partner. You know better. The direction is going to be similar to what he had with you, and if he made your life miserable, he will make theirs miserable too.

I also understand the feeling of resentment that they are spending your hard earned money, but you have more than money. You have the ability to earn money and manage it. He can't take that from you. Yes, there's a cost to a divorce, but ultimately that cost is less than staying with him. If you stayed with him, you'd still be supporting him and you would have all the issues that come with that. He's most likely to do the same thing with the money he has as he did before- spend it, mismanage it, but then it will not be your problem.

You will have gained your own place, peace of mind. He may rebound on to someone but that's often a recipe for disfunction. You may feel lonely for a while. Remember - being sad and lonely are just emotions. You don't need him to be the escape from this discomfort. It's better to not rebound right away- you know that. Now, you can focus on your recovery, changing your co-dependent behaviors, which will serve you in all your relationships, romantic or otherwise.

Now is the time to focus on you.

[Cat Familiar]

Quite bluntly, he’s not a *catch* by any means. With as little as he brings to the table, whoever takes him off the market will likely be a rescuer and will soon be in the same fix as you’ve been for several years.

I was really pissed that I had to pay my ex what I considered then a boatload of money to go away. Now I think of it as a bargain.

He’s brought ruin to everyone he’s been involved with since then, so I’ve heard.

[Couper]

One thought is almost an envy feeling, like the idea that he is going to go off and start this new life with half of the money that I earned

Maybe I can provide you a few angles I have thought up that have made this portion of things easier for me to swallow.  I'm pretty number conscious and also in the beginning stages of trying to calculate myself out of my own mess.

If you take what it will cost and divide it out over your remaining life expectancy (for me that's about 40 years, but hopefully more) it looks like a bargain.  If my uBPDw were to stay those remaining 40 years, she would cost me a good bit more per annum than I'll have to pay her up front right now.  Not to mention that at the end of those 40 years, what it divides out to won't look like nearly as much as it does today because our money simply won't go as far.

I missed if you had kids or not, but I do and I know my uBPDw would put part of what she gets into a house or the IRA that I set up for her. If there's anything left at the end of her days, it will go to our kids, so I rationalize part of it as my kids getting their inheritance in an alternate way.

If you needed a lifesaving operation, you would likely find it much easier to part with the money -- I look at what I'm pursuing in that light.  If I don't do it and stay, I'm not going to make it another 40 years.  I can feel the weight of everything physically taking a toll on me.  What good will having all that money in the bank do me then?  She's going to wind up with it anyway. 

Lastly, a favorite quote from an old timer: "Anything that can be fixed with $100 bills isn't really a problem!".

[ForeverDad]

Don't assume you will have to part with half your assets.  Laws vary depending on the state.  Your lawyer should know all the ins and outs in your area.

One obligation your lawyer has is to represent & protect you - and your finances.  You may be inclined to toss money at the ex just for the ex to go away ASAP, to your regret years in the future.  Your lawyer will try to counter balance your impulses.

[WitzEndWife]

So much wisdom here!

As for getting rid of his things, we've worked out that he is going to come on Sunday, while my dad and I are out of the house all day, to get the rest of his things. If he isn't able to get everything, then we can negotiate another time. However, at least that will get his "energy" out of the space and help me move forward without the constant anxiety associated with him coming around.

The lawyer is doing a good job of looking out for me and not letting me spend too much in my efforts to get him out. I'm in therapy and doing everything I can to deal with my feelings of guilt and obligation here. I'm also trying to tell myself that "it's just money" and hopefully I'll be able to make it up and right the wrongs without him and his constant "needs" for more things. Looking around, I see how much stuff I bought for him: tools, clothes, car parts, accessories, electronics, etc. What a different world it will be when I no longer have all of these expenses. I'm sure I'll be able to make up for lost funds, especially once I refinance the house and roll up some of the debt.

As for how things are going in this moment, I'm feeling very overwhelmed and a little lost. I know I have to just keep moving forward, but it feels like I'll never be happy and like the changes I'm making are meaningless. I know logically that's not true, but emotionally, that's where I am. Bleh. My therapist says it takes time. I've been depressed for so long. It will take me a while to come out of it.

I think it's spot on that he was damaged goods way before this situation and he will continue to be unless he gets the help he needs. I didn't cause him to be this way and I'm not going to cure him either. On the one hand, the idea of him finding someone else after this relationship is kind of painful, but another part of me really hopes he does find someone else because I have a feeling his, "I'm never remarrying - you're the only one for me!" line will obliterate as soon as he finds someone else willing to caretake him. And there are many of us out there, so it's not like that won't happen. The sooner, the better, I guess.

As for me, I think it will be a long time before I will ever even begin to think about dating. The idea of meeting someone else makes me physically ill after what I've been through. However, I don't want to allow him to make me "damaged goods" either and unable to trust others, so I have a lot of work to do.

[kells76]

You've got plenty to deal with already, and I also know about myself that I tend towards seeing details/"trees" vs big picture/"forest", so keep that in mind as I comment on this:

he is going to come on Sunday, while my dad and I are out of the house all day, to get the rest of his things. If he isn't able to get everything, then we can negotiate another time.

While it's one detail of many that you're juggling, it did stand out to me.

How much would you bet that there's some reason he "can't" get all his stuff on Sunday?

How many renegotiations are you up for?

...

Hang in there! You're doing some hard work.

kells76

[GaGrl]

I agree with Kelly -- he can continue to use the excuse of getting his belongings to have contact.

Can your lawyer emphasize to STBX and his lawyer that this removal this weekend needs to clear out his belongings?

If not, my suggestion is to box up anything he leaves, label it, and stack it out of the way. If he wants to come get it, but have it outside the door or in the garage so he can do a "grab and go" without your having to speak with him.

[Notwendy]

Posted after GaGirl's suggestion to box it up. Either way- the point is he doesn't arrange a pick up with you and have contact with you.


Kells makes an important point. Each time he has to "come to get his things" is another encounter, another camel nose under the tent. I think for you to move on emotionally, there needs to be a boundary of no contact ( contact via lawyers ) because, contact with him is your temptation to "drug" and the boundary helps you stay "sober".

Since you have already made this arrangement, one suggestion is that, if there is some of his stuff left, you go with the storage unit. Pay for a couple of months, send him a  key to the lock ( they usually give you 2- you keep one) . He can then get his stuff there. It's on your credit so when you stop payment- if there's anything left ,you donate it. Maybe your lawyer can come up with some sort of contract for this to be done legally. You don't want to abandon a storage unit with stuff in it but I think a 2-3 month window to come get his stuff out of the unit or it's gone is reasonable.

You may feel like damaged goods. You're not damaged. Maybe hurting right now but you can recover emotionally. At the moment, you are not emotionally available for a relationship but that doesn't mean it isn't possible later.

He may land in another relationship sooner, but that doesn't mean he's the more desirable partner. It means he can't manage on his own and that doesn't sound desirable to me.

[WitzEndWife]

Just to be clear, my attorney and I have emphasized that he should get all of his stuff out on Sunday. He has from 9:30 a.m. to 5 p.m. That should be plenty of time and my attorney has communicated this point clearly to his attorney. We both understand that if we allow for him to keep coming back, that's just prolonging things and giving him excuses to be in the house.

However, there are a number of car parts he has down in the basement that are heavy and unwieldy and I'm not sure if he will be able to store them in his current apartment, so we'll see what happens. If he can't get them Sunday, I might move them to a storage unit for a finite period of time or leave them there if his pick-up time is expeditious. All of this is being worked out through the lawyers and I don't plan to be home when he is here, so there's no additional contact that needs to happen between him and me.

My attorney is very experienced and she is protecting me through all of this. She finally got him to stop texting me, which has made life tons better. His attorney, despite having his client sign a no-contact order, advised him to contact me last night. Odd, no? His attorney is a slime ball who keeps trying to make me out to be some scheming, manipulative you-know-what, adding language to agreements that implies I'm hiding money or giving my STBX mixed messages and only getting angry and enforcing our no-contact agreement when he asks for money (twisted and insane, tbh). Like, if I wanted to hide money from this guy, why would I be paying for all of his stuff and spending more than I earn most months? Where is the secret money coming from? Ugh. It makes me SO angry.

I just want the constant anxiety and adrenaline of this experience to go away. I'm SO glad I have therapy tonight. It will be a blessing!

[ForeverDad]

Is there a risk that he may take some of your things while he is there unsupervised?

[WitzEndWife]

ForeverDad, he is supposed to be supplying us with a list of things that he will be removing from the home, so if he takes more than what he agreed to, we will have legal recourse. I don't think he will take my stuff, I think his main motivation for getting back into the house would be for getting close to or having a glimpse of me.

[Notwendy]

Taking something would give him the chance to prolong contact with you if you want it back.

Is there some way you can arrange supervision?

Be sure any valuables or sentimental items are locked up. Put important documents in safe deposit box or lock them up.

If my BPD mother knows anyone wants something of hers, or something that belonged to my father, she won't let them have it. There have been several times she's asked me to go through her house and tell her which items I want. She will even ask me "do you want this?" or "do you think the kids will want this?".  I know that if I say yes - she will decide I can't have it. If I say no, she is disappointed. She wants me to want something she has and she won't let me have it because, I think it helps with the fear of abandonment.

It would not surprise me if your STBX took something of yours, not because of the value of it, but because it's attached to you and somehow ties him to you. If it's something you want, that means you have to contact him to get it back.

[WitzEndWife]

So, he didn't take anything of mine. In fact, he didn't take much of anything of his either. After accusing me of holding his things "hostage" because he couldn't just come get them when he wanted them, he came in and stayed the whole day and ended up taking only a fraction of the things on his list. He took 1/4 closet's worth of clothing, his bike, some artwork, a blender, and a few magazines.

This leads me to think he's dragging his feet on getting out. I know my lawyer won't stand for that. I'm thinking if he doesn't get all of his stuff out by a determined date, I'm going to have to get a storage unit for a period of time. I don't want to do the labor of packing and moving his stuff and paying for a storage unit, but at the same time, if he is going to spend his moving days wistfully wandering around the house instead of packing, I don't know what else to do.

[ForeverDad]

The only possible downside with parking his stuff in a storage unit is, what if he doesn't claim them?  When I lived in NYC there was a landlord/tenant case where the landlord paid for a storage unit to hold the occupant's property.  A key was offered but the rental ran out and the storage company auctioned it off.  The tenant then sued the landlord for his loss.  NYC is heavily pro-tenant and so even though the landlord bent over backward, the landlord lost the case.

Odds are you're not going to face such a situation, but ponder what you'll do if he fails to get his stuff even from a storage unit.

[WitzEndWife]

I mean, if he fails to get his stuff from the storage unit by a certain period of time, I could, I guess, sell his things and send him a portion of the money, recouping my expenses from having to store and sell his stuff. I don't think it will come to that, as he is very controlling over his personal belongings, but he is going to have to get himself in gear here. I am tired of looking at his things every day and having them taking up so much space in the house. It's time to move on and I don't feel like I can really start to relax until he is completely gone.

[kells76]

Does he have any friends/family in the area whom you'd feel comfortable asking to hold his remaining belongings? (Someone with a barn/shop/garage, I'm guessing...)

Just trying to brainstorm ways where you really, really don't have to have any responsibility or "hold the keys" or whatever for his stuff.

[GaGrl]

Do you have a second/guest bedroom? If so, you can box up his belongings, label the boxes, and stack them in available space. That way, you can get the stuff out of your sight, and if he wants it, it should be quick for him to get it.

What does your lawyer say about his failure to retrieve belongings? Any suggestions?

I would not allow him access to the house again without someone (not you!) present to ensure he is really taking his property -- I think you are right that he is moping around and not taking care of the commitment to clear out.