Interesting youtube on Amber Heard

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvaA-VAPwUo


Comments?

[formflier]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvaA-VAPwUo


Comments?

[Turkish]

~7 min mark is interesting. DD mentions projective identification at pwBPD projecting their pain outward. My ex mentioned this to me once, "I just want everyone else to feel my pain!"

Many people in the comments disagree with DD that pwBPD don't know they're lying.  

As Christine Ann Lawson said in her book, "to a [pwBPD], lying feels like survival."

It's an unconscious defense mechanism that becomes normalized because a person has survived in life doing so.

[Manic Miner]

~7 min mark is interesting. DD mentions projective identification at pwBPD projecting their pain outward. My ex mentioned this to me once, "I just want everyone else to feel my pain!"

Many people in the comments disagree with DD that pwBPD don't know they're lying.  

As Christine Ann Lawson said in her book, "to a [pwBPD], lying feels like survival."

It's an unconscious defense mechanism that becomes normalized because a person has survived in life doing so.

I think both are true, at least for my experience with pwBPD.

My W always wanted me to acknowledge the pain she's having. She was/is even jealous if I'm doing better at something she struggles. At the very least I should be "sorry" for her (famous question of asking me "do you at least feel sorry for me and what I've been to?"), if I say "yes I do", drama eases at least 50% off.

At the same time, I think she does know when she's lying - manipulating to get some reaction. But in heat of the moment, she does not. She uses it for survival and afterwards all she remembers are fragments of truth.

For example, 2 years ago, after some heavy arguing and lots of verbal junk thrown at me, she now remembers only why she started it and how she tried to fix it afterwards. All perfectly logical now, but then it was completely different story with all the crazy stuff and distortion now erased. And I truly think it's the way she handles the situation under stress.

What Dr. Drew said in that YT clip did offer some ways of coping with BPD, as he said he was always hugely empathetic about their pain. I think that helps a lot. Showing empathy to them is like throwing tons of water over the flame - it is good.

[Notwendy]

Wow, a lot of good information in this short clip

A couple of things stood out to me. The disordered perception- you can be thinking all is going well- but they are feeling the situation is abusive at the same time.

I did question the pairing of BPD with sociopath. Maybe this is what he sees in the treatment unit between two people who are there for treatment. It seems the more common pairing is BPD with co-dependent/enabler/rescuer. Perhaps that relationship is more stable and so they don't see this as often in a treatment facility.

Also important- his understanding that the pwBPD is, themselves, in a lot of emotional pain.

[formflier]

Many people in the comments disagree with DD that pwBPD don't know they're lying.  
 

My assumption has always been that when their emotions are "off to the races"...they truly believe the crap they are spewing.  Then when they get back to baseline, perhaps they don't fully know the "accurate" truth...but they are pretty sure they were "embellishing" (how is that for polite).

Since the likely "see" themselves as a truthful person, this realization starts or enhances the "shame cycle" because they really have no other way to deal with the two different "realities".

Just the FF theory...

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think there's some variation in the lying, as well as overlap with other PD's.

I like that he mentioned traits as well.

BPD mother is primarily BPD but has NPD traits. She both tells things from her perspective and she deliberately lies- and she knows she's doing it - and takes pleasure in her ability to fool people. She's even admitted lying to others to me. She also lies to me but doesn't admit to doing that.

I think one distinction is the motive. I don't think her motive comes from evil intentions- I don't think she thinks of ways to lie and mislead people for the purpose of causing harm. Harm is the unintended result of that.

I think one motive is that it's a way to get what she wants. I have seen her do this many times. I also think she lies to get out of being blamed for something- but the motive seems more like how a little kid would say they didn't get into the cookie jar before dinner, even though the cookies are gone and there's crumbs everywhere.

Some lies are malicious, and occur in the context of triangulation. She's said things she knows aren't true about me to other people, and says things about them to me. I am not sure what the motivation is, unless it's a Karpman triangle thing. Sometimes she does misperceive intentions.

She lacks empathy. Sometimes it seems she enjoys hurting others but I think to her it's justified because she misperceives they have somehow hurt her. She doesn't seem to be aware of how other people feel or how her behavior impacts them. Or maybe she does but I think it's more about her enjoying the control of the situation. If she provokes a negative response from us ( we have not ever hurt her in any way but have sometimes raised voices to get her to stop ) - to her, this is perceived as an enormous wound coming out of the blue as she doesn't connect this with her behavior. Minor transgressions to her feel like the crime of the century. Something like leaving a toy out of place as a kid, or not putting the dishes in the sink would be perceived as deliberately trying to hurt her.

So, imagining these dynamics in the Heard-Depp case. Johnny Depp was no saint himself but I do not believe he is an abuser. I do think he was provoked and if he was drunk or drugged, he'd have lost inhibitions and then responded in anger probably in ways he would not have done if he had been sober. I can see where, to Amber, she could perceive these events as coming out of the blue if she doesn't connect her behavior to his reaction. To her these events would also be perceived as exaggerated. I don't think one can make the case for her deliberately lying about them specifically.

That doesn't mean she didn't deliberately lie. When my BPD mother feels she's been wronged in some way, that somehow justifies any action she does in return. At this moment, the rules are suspended for her. Think of the Karpman triangle. When they are perceived to be the victim, they justify their actions in self defense. I think in this situation, Amber felt it was justified to embellish her case with lies.

So, I think she did both: misperceive the situation and justify embellishing it in self defense. I don't think she deliberately wanted to cause Depp harm. I think it was more self directed.

[Couper]

I did question the pairing of BPD with sociopath. Maybe this is what he sees in the treatment unit between two people who are there for treatment. It seems the more common pairing is BPD with co-dependent/enabler/rescuer. Perhaps that relationship is more stable and so they don't see this as often in a treatment facility.

I picked up on this, too.  As much good as this interview did to get something out there that most people don't know anything about, I felt that this line of commentary blew whatever good there was totally out of the water.  Now all the BPD's have a soundbite to say we're all sociopaths?  

Maybe all these other pairings are common, but I don't think there's any cut-and-dried pairing to anything.  There are people like me, who I am pretty sure is not a sociopath, thank you very much!  , and my uBPDw will be glad to tell you that I am not enabling or rescuing her.  There are people like me that were going along and out of the clear blue sky essentially had an anvil fall on their head.  She hid all of it until "I do", we got married and moved in together, and the switch got flipped.  I never ever in a million years would have married this person if I had seen up front what I came to experience after "I do".    

As to the lying, that probably runs on a wide spectrum, too.  Maybe some don't know they're lying, and maybe mine at times doesn't know either, but there are damn sure times that she does, she has documented it, and even if it is after the fact that she realizes it, she will do absolutely zero to make it right.  So, what does that say?  To just outright say they all don't know they're lying supports what Megyn pointed out about what does that do in a legal sense?  It's tough to have it both ways by saying they're still an adult and are responsible for their actions if they are given a free pass by saying they don't even know they're lying.  That opens a dangerous door.  She picked right up on it.  If more of this stuff becomes public, wait for the lawyers to have a field day with that.  

[Manic Miner]

The disordered perception- you can be thinking all is going well- but they are feeling the situation is abusive at the same time.

I also experienced that. While not nearly that extreme as his example, many times I thought all pieces are finally there, there's nothing more hidden and to worry about and she just comes up with something new that is totally distorted and just makes the situation from bad to worse.

I did question the pairing of BPD with sociopath. Maybe this is what he sees in the treatment unit between two people who are there for treatment. It seems the more common pairing is BPD with co-dependent/enabler/rescuer. Perhaps that relationship is more stable and so they don't see this as often in a treatment facility.

Good point. I also think BPD pairs with co-dependent and enablers more. But as you said, not many go to treatment, or they go for totally different reasons (e.g. depression, anxiety) with no BPD in sight.

Also important- his understanding that the pwBPD is, themselves, in a lot of emotional pain. 

They are. It's not only my experience with pwBPD but Marsha Linehan said something similar - they are in a lot of pain during crises. Or what one BPD sufferer described about her illness - it's like I'm a child in a grownup body that is searching for my mother, while many of my close friends went away.

Of course, not all pwBPDs are that bad. But If you try to think what's it like to be in her shoes of what she described, using her point of view, it's truly frightening. Almost maddening, with no way out, like a nightmare.
Alas, the drama, never ending cycles they create and rejection to seek therapy is something that can be be studied for years.

[ForeverDad]

I did question the pairing of BPD with sociopath. Maybe this is what he sees in the treatment unit between two people who are there for treatment. It seems the more common pairing is BPD with co-dependent/enabler/rescuer. Perhaps that relationship is more stable and so they don't see this as often in a treatment facility.

Good point. I also think BPD pairs with co-dependent and enablers more.

BPD sufferers link up with many sorts of people.  I recall posts where BPD & NPD couples manage to survive, evidently feeding off each other.

The dependent/enabler/rescuer relationships are the ones where the other keeps trying to fix things, clueless that there are deeper issues.  What we don't hear about are all the people who see the red flags, whether consciously or not, and cut their losses sooner.

I noticed Dr Drew said most with BPD were women.  Hasn't it been commented that men were more often described as anti-social - and many in jail?  Maybe this is where his sociopath comment comes in?

[Notwendy]

I agree that pwBPD tend to pair up with all kinds of people but they also tend to have a history of unstable relationships.

Dr. Drew's perspective is from the people he sees in treatment. I think there are many more people who don't seek treatment. It's a spectrum but also it's possible that one sees the combination of BPD with co-dependent less in treatment.

It's been said that this combination seems to be a more stable one. That doesn't mean it's without drama, but that the over functioning of the caretaker partner can have a stabilizing impact.

Using the example I know of from my parents, my severely BPD mother is not able to function well in day to day tasks and could not have held a job to support herself. Her marriage to my father provided these things for her. While there was drama between them, her basic needs were met by his caretaking, and this probably helped some of her behaviors.  Had she paired up with a NPD or sociopath, she herself might have been seen by someone like Dr. Drew. I guess what I am saying is that Dr. Drew would not have ever met my mother in the situation she was paired with my father, because the situation would not have led her to him. Paired with someone else, it might be.

This doesn't mean it's wrong for people to caretake to some extent. I think all relationships involve some kind of symbiosis of skills and interdependence and it's not always 50-50 either. There are many couples here who have managed to work out a stable situation in some way. Dr. Drew would not ever see these situations in his practice. When someone has severe BPD, the relationship may involve more caretaking on the part of one partner, and it's not always comfortable, but the two together still have a stabilizing effect.

BPD with NPD, or BPD with a sociopath would not likely be stable. Dr. Drew would see more of these combinations.

[Couper]

I agree with all of that and I think the simple way to summarize it would be to say that Dr. Drew doesn't know what he doesn't see.  However, given that this is his field of study, he should recognize that as well and take it into account before making such absolute statements. 

[ForeverDad]

During the Depp-Heard trial this was our thread then.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=352549.0;all

[PeteWitsend]

I always got the sense BPDxw was lying intentionally, and fully aware of it. 

But she either: a) didn't care; or b) assumed I (and everyone else) was also lying all the time, so it didn't really matter. 

I noticed this as well in her attitude toward work, and her career.  She was of the opinion that everyone lied to get ahead at their job, and also avoided doing any actual work.  If you were honest and or actually hard working, YOU were a sap, and everyone else was justified in taking advantage of you.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Some lies are malicious, and occur in the context of triangulation. She's said things she knows aren't true about me to other people, and says things about them to me. I am not sure what the motivation is, unless it's a Karpman triangle thing. Sometimes she does misperceive intentions.

My mother's lies also have a triangulation dynamic to them. I now think it has to do with trying to hide the lies.

Say she lies about me to my brother, that she told something terrible. She cannot afford me to learn about it, so she needs to sever ties between my brother and I. And so she will lie about my brother to me. Lies that are hard to verify, lies that one wouldn't just bring up, lies that really discredite the other person.

She once told me my brother abused his son at her house, in winter. This is the kind of stain that is very hard to forget. It plants a seed of doubt. My brother would never admit it. But it is fishy, because why wouldn't she intervene? A terrible lie meant to wedge us one against another to cover up the things she probably say about me to him.

Met some of her friends. They all look at me a funny way, like they are wondering... One of her friends, who is also my stepfather's sister, has known me since I was 10yo, and she once said, when I visited her alone as I was leaving : "I told your mother that you were nice and had never done anything wrong to me and always treated me with respect and kindness." And I only now understand why: there is no telling what kind of sick sob stories she told them about me. I wonder why my step-aunt ft the need to say that, other than as a surprise to something terrible my mother likely said and that didn't match her reality with me.

I think, in the end, my mother needs drama to connect with others. Talking badly about other people is a way to relate. When there is nothing bad to say anymore, she invents the drama...to bond.

[Turkish]

Trauma to bond? Maybe it's Waif behavior: "rescue me emotionally to confirm and validate my projections."

[Manic Miner]

I think, in the end, my mother needs drama to connect with others. Talking badly about other people is a way to relate. When there is nothing bad to say anymore, she invents the drama...to bond.

Is your mother pwBPD or NPD? Making her own children angry and against each other, while she's eating popcorn from behind sounds like NPD to me.

In any case, I hope you worked out with your brother and the rest of your family that you care about. Do not let mentally ill people ruin your relationship with others, if others are worth fighting for.

[Notwendy]

I think there can be overlap between the PD's. My BPD mother has some NPD traits but her behaviors are in line with BPD and they result in her being low functioning even though she is intelligent.

Like Riv3rWolf's mother, my mother also tells such types of lies to others. To me, it's a bit reminiscent of the "mean girls" on the playground. She'll say- this is a secret, don't tell __________ which then aligns the two against the third- who has no idea what was being said about them.

I have heard some of the untrue things she has told her extended family about me. I also see those funny looks at me. It's made the relationship with them uncomfortable.

Once I caught her in a lie and she said as sincerely as she could "I have never lied to you" and that was a lie.

I don't get the sense that she thinks it's OK to lie. I think she does see us as "saps" compared to her but I think it's more that her ability to fool us helps her self esteem somehow. We learned the main ethical rules- don't lie, don't steal, etc and were expected to follow them. It's just that somehow she sees herself as an exception when it comes to lying, like the rules don't apply to her. That's an NPD trait, but she's mostly BPD.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Trauma to bond? Maybe it's Waif behavior: "rescue me emotionally to confirm and validate my projections."

Growing up, I identified my mother more with Witch/Waif. After she stopped drinking, she became more Hermit, and now she is mostly Queen/Waif.

In all honesty anyway, the more I read about BPD, NPD, the more I realize the best term for my mother is Cluster's B behaviors, triggered by a high fear of abandonment, she aligns more with BPD, but she exhibits many of the other traits. She is a deeply traumatized BPD. Her NPD traits are a protection for her and I do think she now pushes us away to keep her dysregulation in check, and get a sense of "peace".

Since I was young, she has been moving further and further away from her birthplace, and then from us, literally. She changed cities many times, going further and further away from where we are. She does wonder why we don't visit as much (waif), but I am certain this is an unconscious choice to protect herself from her illness. She is not a hermit where she is, she has friends, but she moves far away from the people closest to her as a way to keep the BPD dysregulations at bay. That's how I see it, anyway.

The drama is all she learned. In her family of origin, people don't talk to each other, unless there is something bad to say about someone else. That is how they relate to each other, so it stands to reason she would continue this type of behaviors with us. I don't think she enjoys it, it is just something she does. And then she wonders why we don't have nice family diners anymore and feels sad about it, so maybe a bit of waif in there too. Creating the dynamics around her so that she can live her inner life of the abandoned mother with ungrateful brats, rendering her projections real, any way she can.

Manic Miner,
Yes, I still talk to both of my brothers. But it is a difficult setting for a close bond. One of them I now suspect is a communal narcissist (the one she said had abused her son), and the other is a drug addict, and alcoholic and developed a bipolar disorder from trauma, and I trigger his low self-esteem... They both succeeded in some ways, but there is a lot of triggers and eggshells around them too. In the end, I am the only one that seemingly "made it" to something healthy, because I stayed closer to my father, lived with him every chance I got and left my mother's house as soon as he offered to go live with him, while both my brothers stayed with my mother almost full time.

I don't comment a lot on this board for this reason, I would basically yell to all the fathers here to leave and protect their children. But I understand now that all BPDs are very different and on a spectrum. But having a "good enough" father that sent me to seminars about the self, had me read books like The Alchemist, gave me art crayons, paint and music to express my pain, my loneliness, which he himself couldn't hear about (he is emotionally immature too), a father who would made me feel safe in a safe house, who played check with me and valued my intelligence. He wasn't perfect, but he was enough. And having a safe home away from my mother was the turning point that saved me from becoming borderline myself.

But then, my mother was a raging alcoholic and low-functioning for many years... So there is definitely a spectrum of behavior.

It truly is a journey for all of us that know someone with BDP.

[Couper]

Like Riv3rWolf's mother, my mother also tells such types of lies to others. To me, it's a bit reminiscent of the "mean girls" on the playground. She'll say- this is a secret, don't tell __________ which then aligns the two against the third- who has no idea what was being said about them.

I have heard some of the untrue things she has told her extended family about me. I also see those funny looks at me. It's made the relationship with them uncomfortable.

Once I caught her in a lie and she said as sincerely as she could "I have never lied to you" and that was a lie.

I have been through this exact same thing.  Back when I thought my input actually meant something and I caught her (again) talking about me and personal matters to others, I told her that I don't like her talking about me and I want it to stop and absolutely deadpan she said, "I don't talk about you to anyone".  Then she turned straight around and started texting like she's so prone to do, probably when guilt strikes. 

I later saw where she texted one of those people at that very instance and she said, "He accused me to talking about him again and said he wanted me to stop.  I don't talk about him to anyone... except you... and Sarah... and my mother... and the women's group at church".  So there you go, at least a dozen people and it was always stuff made up out of thin air or heavily altered to make herself out to be the victim.  One of them was a totally irresponsible armchair psychologist that told her I was controlling, pointed out how there was a repetitious cycle to my actions, and labeled me a gaslighter.  This was all before I knew what BPD was and that person took everything uBPDw fed her about what were really her own actions and stuck it on me!  So, now I know how everyone within her sphere of influence views me and is why I have drawn a line with her staying away from my friends. 

The one thing Depp has going for him is that at least he can buy his way out of his problems.

[Notwendy]

The one thing Depp has going for him is that at least he can buy his way out of his problems.

And he has a few more other things going for him too    but drugs and excess drinking to the point of passing out are a huge red flag, so I'd personally steer clear of Captain Sparrow.

While his fame and finances are an advantage, I think there will be benefits to a lot of people from bringing this kind of situation out in the open more. I hope so.

[Couper]

The one thing Depp has going for him is that at least he can buy his way out of his problems.

And he has a few more other things going for him too    but drugs and excess drinking to the point of passing out are a huge red flag, so I'd personally steer clear of Captain Sparrow.

While his fame and finances are an advantage, I think there will be benefits to a lot of people from bringing this kind of situation out in the open more. I hope so.

I certainly don't think he's a model citizen (truthfully, I knew nothing about him until this trial started, I don't follow Hollywood much at all).  However, money is essential or else you're screwed.  Just ask my lawyer.  I'd be halfway to done already were it not for that and here I'm still stuck at 3% and crawling at a snail's pace trying to get everything in order.  So frustrating.

[Notwendy]

I understand. Divorce is expensive, and when there's a disordered person, probably more. I can understand the partner who is providing the financial support feeling resentful. It's a significant expense- but on the other hand, staying has a financial and emotional cost as well. I hope you find peace on the other side of this tunnel.

[Couper]

I understand. Divorce is expensive, and when there's a disordered person, probably more. I can understand the partner who is providing the financial support feeling resentful. It's a significant expense- but on the other hand, staying has a financial and emotional cost as well. I hope you find peace on the other side of this tunnel.

Thanks.  It's not even the pain of writing the check.  It's the pain of having the inability to do it presently.  I have already resolved not to be one of those people that spends the rest of his life griping about what the ex cost him.  Whether it were for this or a heart transplant, I look at it as a life saving procedure worth every cent.  I just want to get on with it.

[whirlpoollife]

I find it of interest of hearing and reading of the projection .
My xh , whom I was married to for 27 years , early in the marriage would say to me , that if he is blamed or guilty of anything he would bounce it right back on the other person.       If he was in physical pain, shoulder , back arm etc, he would dig his fist in my back or squeeze my shoulder to the point I would have to say stop that hurts.    Then he would say,  see now you understand .   Over the years that continued but I would stop him before he had to show his example , which would upset him still.            The lies , or projection , increased  though.   Of how I sleep all day , or live off him financially,  or have affairs with everyone I talk too.     Increased,   maybe because the more he could the more powerful he could feel.   

Couper, I like your description , “ life saving procedure” .  That would shorten up the answer of the question of why I divorced xh. 

[livednlearned]

I'm not sure I understand what lying even means in the context of someone who does not have a self (BPD).

There are also pwBPD who are self aware of their behaviors. A lot of us here don't have the opportunity to experience that, but there are pwBPD committed to recovery, who may identify behaviors as "lying" because they have learned that's how others experience it.

My H had an argument one night with (non BPD) SD28. They both left the house to cool off. I was in my study and (BPD) SD25 came out of her room, sat down on the stairs within earshot and called her (BPD) mom to relay what had happened.

Except in her retelling, BPD SD25 described it as a fight between her and H.

It made me think: whether SD25 is aware that the fight didn't involve her, the episode was problematic. She was either lying (intentional lie to gain attention or reassurance) or believed it (delusional). Both were red flags.

When H came home, BPD SD25 clung to him like a toddler while trying to comfort him, playing two seemingly contradictory roles that both helped her get needs met (in unhealthy ways).

More than anything this seems to point to someone who has no clear sense of self, who was also perceiving everything through the lens of being a victim, because that's the primary way she defines reality. I guess you could call it lying, although it seems more complex than that.

Sometimes it seems these actions or beliefs or whatever you want to call them are simply on a spectrum with a wide range of normal and a smaller section defined as abnormal, where PDs are and cluster B traits. The differentiator is the degree to which you have a sense of self that functions like a conscience or something similar, to help pull people back to functional behaviors that create stable relationships.

BPD SD25 is an example to me of someone who is functioning from a place of raw emotion with not a whole lot of self-reflection (since her sense of self isn't defined), but who is also able to mask in order to function socially, at least until the mask becomes onerous to maintain.

The biggest takeaway I notice, too, at least in the last handful of years, is that there is not as much of a payoff to lies when the family doesn't reward the behavior. BPD SD25 seems to manufacture crises, but when people start asking her what she thinks about the crisis, how does she think she should handle it, what are her thoughts -- that is not satisfying to her. She doesn't want accountability, she wants to be a victim. The one time she alleged her ex BF hit her, BPD mom and affair partner drove down and escalated the situation beyond what BPD SD25 wanted. They kicked out her BF when what she wanted was victim status and an active drama triangle, not living alone.

Since then she has become more circumspect in what she alleges. She is recognizing that the family has learned some boundaries.

"Everyone is out to get me at work, all the time, for no reason" is being met more often with "Huh, that sounds awful. Any thoughts on how you want to handle that?" Which seems to deflate the lie, if that's what's considered a lie.

The bottom line is taking everything with a grain of salt, which is similar to saying "I don't trust SD25."

I didn't watch the video so maybe this is not relevant, idk.

[formflier]

I guess you could call it lying, although it seems more complex than that.



 She doesn't want accountability, she wants to be a victim. 

These are the two that jumped out at me.

For sure, it's more complex.  And the example of "family being out to get me" is more of an "emotional opinion"...vice a lie.  I would consider a lie to be something like "No, I was not at that hotel on Feb 4th, at 10pm" (when there is video evidence of it)

Back to complex reasons:  Even in my last example I could see shame helping twist things so they truly believe that they were not at the hotel...as in truly thinking to themselves "I could never have done xyz...therefore I couldn't have been there"

Switching to the last sentence.  Very powerful motivation to gain victimhood or "relative victimhood"...such as "sure that shouldn't have happened to you, but look what happened to me...it was so much worse."

Best,

FF

[PeteWitsend]

These are the two that jumped out at me.

For sure, it's more complex.  And the example of "family being out to get me" is more of an "emotional opinion"...vice a lie.  I would consider a lie to be something like "No, I was not at that hotel on Feb 4th, at 10pm" (when there is video evidence of it)

Back to complex reasons:  Even in my last example I could see shame helping twist things so they truly believe that they were not at the hotel...as in truly thinking to themselves "I could never have done xyz...therefore I couldn't have been there"

Switching to the last sentence.  Very powerful motivation to gain victimhood or "relative victimhood"...such as "sure that shouldn't have happened to you, but look what happened to me...it was so much worse."

Best,

FF

If something they say or claim is not technically a lie it is nevertheless dishonest.  I eventually learned to avoid the "lying/not lying" arguments with BPDxw b/c they only served to distract attention from her behavior.

Instead of addressing whatever thing she was doing to violate a boundary (or violate basic human courtesy and decency) she'd get really wrapped up in whether she had lied or not, and demand I answer "where is the lie?"  And if what she was saying was technically not a lie, then she was "right" to do whatever she had done, and I was wrong for having a problem with it, and she would feel justified in continuing the behavior.

So I felt dishonest is maybe a better word than lying for some of their statements and allegations that are heavily reliant on their own subjective feelings about someone or something, or someone else's motivation. 

It seems all a little ridiculous to even go down the path with them, since honesty is an unknown concept to pwBPD to begin with.  Even if they aren't lying in one instance, they lie all the time, either lying outright or lying by omission, exaggerating things, misrepresenting what was said, or assuming others' intentions or feelings, which of course they could never know. 

[ThanksForPlaying]

I just had this happen tonight, which brought me here for a dose of support.

uBPDgf got out of 45 day rehab today. For the past 30 days it's been wonderfully stable. 10 minute phone calls at 730pm was our only contact. She was supposed to get out of rehab either today or tomorrow. No phone call at 730pm today so I assumed something was going on. She called at 1030pm saying she just got out at 9pm and went to the grocery store. Then called back at 11pm saying she really got out of rehab at 1pm but they made her go back to sign paperwork. And then she bought cigarettes for people and delivered them back to the rehab center. But it still all doesn't add up. So I'm just slowly letting her spin this "lie". And then she says "oh and also I ate two cheeseburgers".

My assumption here is that she has been drinking and who knows what else for about 9 hours since she got out of rehab. The story keeps coming out in pieces about other things she says she was doing. Who knows if any of that is true. It's like I can hear the falsehoods and omissions being created as she speaks.

The GOOD news is that I have full custody right now and we don't live together. So I don't have to be involved with this. I'm getting too tied up with trying to untangle the lie when I don't need to do that.

The bottom line is that we had a 730pm phone call scheduled for today and she missed it. That's the boundary. I shouldn't talk to her until tomorrow.

Answering her late phone call at 11pm and listening to her long-winded story about where she's been for the past 9 hours is irrelevant. Not a path I even need to go down right now, even though it's frustrating and it makes me feel satisfied if I can untangle the web and know the complete story. Doesn't matter.

I need to focus on the boundary and the consequences moving forward and not get stuck litigating the timeline.

[formflier]

If something they say or claim is not technically a lie it is nevertheless dishonest.  I eventually learned to avoid the "lying/not lying" arguments with BPDxw b/c they only served to distract attention from her behavior.
 

Yeah..the "old FF" used to think it was important to make someone say "I lied...I'm sorry"...etc etc as part of an apology/reconciliation.  When BPDish stuff started to rage in our relationship, this approach made it much worse.

I switched to more of a "I'm surprised to hear (xyz).  Can we talk more about it?"   Once she realized that it would be a drawn out thing where she "incriminated" herself...she started just dropping the matter.

And now..thankfully "lies" really aren't a thing in our relationship.  

Best,

FF

[PeteWitsend]

...

I switched to more of a "I'm surprised to hear (xyz).  Can we talk more about it?"   Once she realized that it would be a drawn out thing where she "incriminated" herself...she started just dropping the matter.

And now..thankfully "lies" really aren't a thing in our relationship.  

Best,

FF

that's a pretty good strategy. 

a few times I tried something similar on the fly, or if there would have been witnesses to BPDxw's claims (who were objective) I would suggest talking to them, and she'd usually retreat from that particular claim, but quickly find something else.

kind of a "okay, so maybe it didn't happen, but knowing you, it's completely likely to happen, and that's why I'm mad"