BPD and sabatoge?

[Methuen]

Yesterday I brought mom groceries and stayed 1/2 an hour to work on a puzzle I had purchased for her.  She likes puzzles.  She told me she’s not seeing as well out of her bad eye.  This is the eye that had the endophthalmitis infection last October.  She still receives 2 daily home care visits to put the drops in.  She is not cooperative and refuses to let them do it, insisting she’ll do it herself.  They watch her and tell her where to move her hand so the drop actually goes in.  Recently she took the key out of the lockbox so they couldn’t get in her house.    Now the key is back in the lockbox.  Yesterday when she told me she was having trouble seeing with that eye, I calmly asked her if she thought it could be because the drops weren’t getting in her eye.  She says she gets it in perfectly.  She has diagnosed advanced Parkinsons and shakes terribly, because she refuses to take  medication since she “doesn’t have Parkinson’s”. 

Yesterday afternoon H transports her to her  Dr for her prolia shot (osteoporosis). In his exam work up, he asks her about her sight.  “My sight is good”. 

H: I thought you told Methuen this morning that you couldn’t see hardly out of that eye?

Mom: it’s good.  I can see fine.

Dr examines her eyes and tells her the bad eye has an infection.

This morning at 9:30am, H drives to her house to return a key he accidentally brought home yesterday.  The house is dark, the blinds are closed and she is asleep while her housekeeper cleans her house. 

We are now on the road to our camping destination with friends. 

Is this an example of her self sabatoge?  Her refusal to accept help with her required and prescribed eye drop medication?   Her refusal to accept that her shaking prevents her from getting the drops in?  Her refusal to accept that her recent vision loss might be related to her sslf-administration of the drops?  Even her doctor telling her she has an infection didn’t phase her!

I went on my camping trip.  I can’t fix her.  I can’t help her.  Home care needs to see what I see.  They don’t have an accurate picture.  They just believe all the lies she tells them (how well she manages on her own etc). I get the feeling they don’t believe me when I say something differently.

Is this current crisis going to be “the one”?

How many more years can this go on for?

To me it seems her behavior is self sabatoge.  I’m curious. 

This morning H asked me if I had put away her puzzle yesterday.  I replied that I had worked on it,  but she complained she couldn’t do it because she couldn’t see.  I commented that it would still be nice for her friends to be able to work on while visiting her. 

This morning H told me the puzzle was put away (a gift from me).

Trying to interpret all her behavior is probably a waste of time because it doesn’t change anything.

She’s languishing guys.  How bad does it have to get?

One good thing that H reported coming out of her Dr appt yesterday was that Dr recommended a referral to geriatrician “which he does for all his patients over 80 to have their meds checked routinely by a geriatrician “.  H arranged for me to be the contact when the call comes for an appointment to be made”.

She has missed referrals in the past because either she can’t hear or can’t mentally process what the person at the other end of the phone is saying.

It’s all just horrible.  This languishing is not what I want for my mother.  But she makes terrible terrible decisions.  They kind of appear self sabatoging. 

I know its about control.  But the life she’s living now is without quality.  She’s just “hanging on”. 

[Mommydoc]

She is languishing and it must be very painful to witness Methuen. That process could go on for a protracted amount of time. You have done everything you can.

I think of sabotage as an intentional act to destroy or undermine a situation. In your mothers case, her behaviors seem quite self destructive but it’s hard to see the intentional part. It seems like she has significant denial about her circumstances, abilities, and decline, and no self awareness of her impact on you and those who are trying to help her. Her coping mechanisms are off.

We all hate to see our loved one suffer and want to fix the situation. Your mother’s situation is so unfortunate. However, I hope you can acknowledge to yourself that you have left no stone unturned to help her. She is making bad choices that may have negative or serious consequences. You just aren’t responsible for that.

Expending additional energy on your mom likely won’t change her situation but robs you of the self care you deserve. I hope you can enjoy your camping trip with your friends and focus on your own self care.

[Methuen]

Thank you, Mommydoc.

[Notwendy]

I understand, Methuen,

Although I don't live as close to my mother as you do, her situation is not the one I would have wished for her. Yet, I have to also acknowledge that it's the one of her choosing. 

I agree with Mommydoc that your mother's behavior is part of her denial and delusions, but I also think it's about keeping control. For many disorders, controlling what they can is a way to manage their anxiety. It may appear to be self sabotage, but things like moving the key, moving the puzzle, wanting to control the eye drops, these help her feel in control and decrease her anxiety.

My BPD mother does things like this. Once I took the trash cans to the curb for the garbage pick up and she came after me, upset that they were not exactly in the place she wanted them at the curb. I had to move them a few inches over. It really would not have mattered- the garbage collectors could have gotten them either way. But someone she had to control where they went.

And the resistance to us picking up her car. We were there, available to do it. But no, she needed to be in charge of when her car would be picked up, even if it was harder for her. I recall putting some food in her fridge and she threw it out- because she didn't say I could put it there.

What drives any behavior? It's when the payoff for the behavior exceeds the cost/consequences. I think control is the payoff to these behaviors.

It's hard to see our parents in this situation, but they are still in control of their choices.

Take care of yourself and enjoy your trip.

[zachira]

Methuen,
Maybe it would help to think of your mother as an alcoholic who is elderly and been drinking since an early age, has destroyed her life and health and missed out on all the things that really matter. Can you imagine trying to get this alcoholic to stop drinking and face all those years of wasting her life, all the unbearable feelings it would bring up, all the new ways of living the alcoholic would have to learn to stay sober while facing all the unbearable feelings of failure and having wasted her life? Part of your mother's wanting to be in full control of everything and everybody around her is likely partly due to she can't bear the painful emotional challenges she would have to face if she were to go to an assisted living/nursing home or allow home health care to assist her in her home. I do think it is likely there are people who are involved with your mother who get it, though not to the extent that you do, and know it is not worth the fight,that nothing is going to change until a major crisis hits that forces your mother to have a different living situation with most decisions about her care made by others.
You and your husband are wonderful to your mother, have done everything possible to help her. I hope you can try to put aside not worrying so much about what is going to happen, though being the caring person you are and her daughter, the pain and confusion of watching your mother self destruct, is more than probably you can ever put into words. I hope you can also give yourself some gentle validation of the kind of person you have become despite having a BPD mother.
Enjoy your trip! I am glad you are doing everything you can to enjoy life, while dealing with the unbearable situation with your mother.

[Couscous]

Hi Menthuen,

I haven't visited these parts in a while, but thought I would share this video about powerlessness with you that was very helpful for me as I have begun to realize just how much I have been avoiding experiencing this exceedingly painful feeling in my own life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl9kjjFq4sI

The feeling of powerlessness seems to be a very common side effect of having had controlling parents.

[Methuen]

Thank you for that Couscous.

I have applied her message to my situation in this way:  for years and years and years I felt powerless under my mom's words and actions and behaviors.  In the last couple of years, coming to accept her "as is" and then learning to set my boundaries and stick to them is what is giving me some power back (and a life).  

I feel that accepting the "as is" she referred to in the video, is akin to "radical acceptance".

Having said this, when mom dysregulates and behaves bonkers, it can't help but affect me because people call me to tell me, and report to me.  I am expected to "do something" and help her or fix her.

I can't say much.  These people know nothing about BPD.  They don't see or know the same person I know.  I can't tell them anything or say anything because they wouldn't understand.  They haven't walked my walk.

It's hard to live with the pressure and expectations that good people who don't understand, put on me.  

But I am learning to focus on what I can control, and let go of what I can't.  I can't control what they think when they don't know the real story.

"In the moment" when she is in an epic dysregulation and and irrational and making terrible decisions and raging, it's pretty hard to walk away from an elderly and rather infirm parent, and "let go" .

Today I visited her in my lunch break.  She's always waify, but there was a split second when she went 150% waify (even for her), and I looked at her and said "well mom, you can sit here in a pity party, or you can try taking the doctor's meds (for her Parkinson's) again".  Then I changed the topic.  She looked at me blankly.  She's 86 and severely ADHD with early cognitive dementia thrown into the mix, so changing the topic (to something about one of her personal lifetime accomplishments) works every time.  She didn't know what to do with the "pity party" statement.  She went back to only being 100% waify so I guess that was a win.

In the moment when I said that, I immediately knew the old me would have sympathized and been sucked right down into that pity party abyss to soothe her, because that was what was expected of me.  I can see now how unhelpful that has been.

The new me is finding a bit of a voice.  And now that I have relative LC with her (compared to the enmeshment and daily contact I used to have) , I am stronger, and today I found the gumption to step back from the pity party.

It is a long and difficult journey, and there's been a lot of brutal push backs.  But it's sure better than where I would be without having gone on the journey.  Truly powerless.

Thanks for taking the time to send the video.

How are you doing?

[Notwendy]

It's hard to live with the pressure and expectations that good people who don't understand, put on me. 

I understand. And we still have these expectations on ourselves too. It's a struggle to not play our usual enabling roles and yet, we still care about our BPD mothers.

[zachira]

Methuen,
Does anybody ever look sad when they see how your mother treats you, or is she so clever that she never mistreats you in front of anybody? You have said that it took years for your husband to understand the situation with your mother. I am wondering how he figured it out.

[Methuen]

 

It's a struggle to not play our usual enabling roles and yet, we still care about our BPD mothers.

Exactly.

…or is she so clever that she never mistreats you in front of anybody?

This.  

You asked how he came to figure it all out.

About 4 years ago my FIL came to visit (he was still alive).  He was in late stages of vascular dementia and like a child, so my H would have to take two flights to go get him, and accompany him back to our city.  Once with us, he was some kind of high maintenance, but it was easy because it was temporary (two weeks) and he was gentle and 100% compliant and agreeable.  My mom who was still somewhat mobile and also driving at the time, showed up and came into the house in an epic rage screaming all sorts of irrational and untrue stuff in front of my H, my FIL and our daughter.  I asked her to calm down and not do this in front of daughter.  Every one was in shock.  She didn’t want to calm down because she wanted to release her rage. She came with a mission.   So then I told her I would have to leave if she didn’t stop.  She couldn’t stop.  So I walked to my bedroom and locked the door behind me , leaving her with my family.  She had a few more verbal vomits and then left, slamming the door behind her so hard the house physically shivered.

That was the first time in 33 years of marriage she didn’t wait for me to be alone.  

That was the first time my daughter met a grandma she didn’t know.

H had many years earlier figured out how much attention my mom commanded onto herself.  He instantly saw that this was about all the things being done for FIL in our care.  She was jealous.

Once he experienced a dysregulation first hand, he started showing a lot more empayhy for my stories.

[Methuen]

Continued from last post:
Now with mom’s continued physical and mental aging  deterioration, she is not able to hold it in until she can get me alone, because I rarely see her alone any more, and she is housebound because of mobility issues and loosing her drivers license.

So she has “lost it” a few times in front of her home care workers, but home care has basically stopped communicating with me now.  I only know of two times it was documented, and reportedly that is not enough to contact her doctor.  I am speculating she has revoked her consent to have contact with me.  But maybe they are just too busy and understaffed to follow up. Or maybe both.

So she languishes because the BPD is undiagnosed, and the phone calls I used to receive from her support workers about  her behavior weren’t documented.  To home care she is just a frail and helpless old lady, but not a mentally ill one.  

Such a perfect example of “borderline “.  The mental illness is only visble to her intimate relationships.  Even her best friends and trained health professionals don’t see it.  Even my H didn’t see it for 33 years.  She keeps the illness on the border between two groups of people.  

That’s just my interpretation of the name “borderline” based on my experience.  

But I think it also explains how they can be motherly to other people’s kids but abusive to their own.  

[zachira]

Methuen,
I am finally getting it that your mother is more manipulative and skilled in hiding how she treats you behind closed doors than most BPD mothers. I have seen old people get a pass for terrible behaviors because of their age, when they have always been abusive and emotionally dysregulated their whole lives. You are likely right that you mother has made it clear to those people involved in her care, that they cannot disclose anything to you. I hear your pain when others fall for your mother's narratives that you are not doing enough for her or treating her right. I sometimes got this disapproving look from staff when I was involved in my mother's care from people who did not know her well and were only involved in her care very short term. I hope your trip went well. Keep up the good work of taking care of yourself!

[zachira]

Methuen,
The more I think about this, I realize that unlike others who post here, you have been alone for many years (until your H, D and FIL witnessed your mother's aberrant behaviors) in having nobody get how badly your mother treats you. It seems she is a Bernie Maddoff type, knows who she can sell her narratives to, and quickly gets rid of the people who she cannot manipulate. I am wondering if reading about smear campaigns and how to respond to them, might be helpful.

[Methuen]

The more I think about this, I realize that unlike others who post here, you have been alone for many years (until your H, D and FIL witnessed your mother's aberrant behaviors) in having nobody get how badly your mother treats you. It seems she is a Bernie Maddoff type, knows who she can sell her narratives to, and quickly gets rid of the people who she cannot manipulate.

Well she never ran a Ponzi scheme, but you summed up the rest of it very accurately.  Yes I have been alone, and have assumed that many others on this board have been as lost in the  forest  as I was when I landed on this site.  And yes she very quickly gets rid of the the people she cannot manipulate.  She picks friends who are people pleasers and carers.  And they bend over backwards for her because she is such a kind and unfortunate person in their eyes.  

Thanks for your kindness Zachira.

[Couscous]

How are you doing?

Thanks for asking. 

The long and the short of it was that I got hooked back into some family drama in February, and sure enough, I got clobbered. But I needed to go through that in order for me to snap out of the denial that I was in about the extent to which I have been scapegoated, as well as finding out just how vicious and shameless my sister and mother really are. 

The end result is that I have "unmeshed" from my family system (with no help at all from my therapist, I might add) and am no longer going to be making myself available to be bullied, blamed and shamed. I have no further desire to attempt to clear my name, and I genuinely no longer care what any of them think about me. I think I have finally severed the trauma bond. I will remain in cordial contact with my father, but I will be taking a very long break from initiating communication with him. As for my mother and siblings, I will only resume limited contact with them if they are actively working on their recovery -- a highly unlikely scenario. 

But now that family drama is no longer serving as a helpful distraction, I have discovered that my own compulsive rescuing and codependency issues run much deeper than I could ever have imagined, and worst of all, are affecting my parenting in a major way and I am now in the process of trying out different CoDA meetings and finding a sponsor. I suspect that my therapist is a codependent in denial as he doesn't see scapegoating and smear campaigns as abusive, so I am going to be looking for a new therapist too who actually gets this stuff. :/

So that's my update!

[Methuen]

Couscous, I am sorry to hear you went through the clobbering bit, but it sounds like it was a necessary step in the recovery process, and I celebrate  with you that you have seen the light, and have "unmeshed" yourself.  That's so great!

Good for you for starting CoDA!  That's awesome

I suspect that my therapist is a codependent in denial as he doesn't see scapegoating and smear campaigns as abusive, so I am going to be looking for a new therapist too who actually gets this stuff.

Your T doesn't see scapegoating and smear campaigns as abusive?  That is so messed up!  Geesh.  Good for you for jumping ship and looking for a better T who actually knows their stuff...

Good to hear from you, and thanks again for the video.  It helped me process some more.  The processing seems endless.

[Daisy Green]

Methuen,

Your story sounds so much like my grandmother.  My mother literally drained her life force caring for a woman who herniated herself, played guilt trips and refused self-help.

If your mother were an animal, her behavior is suggesting she's "going off to die" & the other animals would likely give her space to do so.  Sometimes I wish we humans would follow similar protocol guilt-free.

These things are not easy. I'm sending you good vibes...

PS:
It's really good you still went camping!  I was glad to hear that.

[Methuen]

Good vibes received!  Thank you so much Daisy Green!

[Couscous]

Daisy Green,

Stories like this help me better understand why codependency is considered by some experts to be a disease just as deadly as alcoholism.

I have to wonder if your grandmother actually had any intention of "going off to die" or if it was just a control tactic in order to keep your mother in servitude to her. I can't help but notice how similar this kind of behavior (elderly parents essentially threatening self-harm in order to coerce their children into caring for them) is to the domestic abuse tactic of threatening suicide in order to keep a partner from leaving the relationship. I thought this advice from hotline.org was spot on:

Put the choice to live or die where it belongs - on your partner.
You can’t be responsible for another person’s actions, no matter what – and this includes when your partner chooses to be abusive. An optional response is: “I think our relationship should be based on love and respect, not threats. I really care about you, but this is your choice and I can’t stop you from making it.”


https://www.thehotline.org/resources/when-my-partner-threatens-suicide/

[Notwendy]

Methuen,
Does anybody ever look sad when they see how your mother treats you, or is she so clever that she never mistreats you in front of anybody? You have said that it took years for your husband to understand the situation with your mother. I am wondering how he figured it out.

For me, it's a bit of both. Most people have no idea about how my mother treats me. She is careful enough to not do it in front of people. But my father knew. If he was sad about it, he didn't share that. The tendency was to blame me for somehow upsetting her. As to anything she did, we had to pretend it didn't happen.

Some of her FOO have caught on a bit but nobody who may have caught on has expressed any sadness for me.

Perhaps it's denial. If they did, they'd have to acknowledge her disorder, but the unspoken rule is not to.

It took my husband a while to catch on because, it's unimaginable to him. He can be empathetic but has no personal experience like this. No parent is perfect, including his parents, but his experience is a loving and caring mother. In our culture, we attribute loving and caring to mothers. This is the normal and default image- because most mothers are loving and caring and would not ever harm their child.

On my part, I am not comfortable talking about her because saying such things about your mother is considered disrespectful. The default is to assume the child is horrible for saying such things. In addition, I have been afraid to talk about her as I feared people would judge me poorly. When I do talk about her with my H, he understands but also winces. Winces because to him, it's unthinkable to speak about a mother like this- and he would not consider saying these things about his own mother.

He gets it now and one thing he has noticed is how I am after seeing her or talking to her. He sees the stress. But when he says things that imply we are not compatible, it's upsetting to me because, it's not just that. He has also said he knows I have tried my best with her, and knows she has a disorder. I think he gets it but doesn't know how quite to say it, as he doesn't relate to that. When he tells me stories of the nice things his mother did when he was a child, that seems like another world to me too.

[livednlearned]

Methuen, I cannot imagine the sadness you must've felt being alone in your knowledge about your mother's BPD and the impact that would have on you. Bessel van der Kolk has a quote, "Your reality is not allowed to be known. That is the trauma."

All to say I'm glad you are not alone in experiencing this anymore. It is troubling that the health care team hasn't caught on -- is that where this stings the most? The difference again between what you experience and what others see.

I'm sure there are all kinds of plausible explanations for why your mom's plight falls within the range of normal, even though it may be far from optimal. I'm just wondering if the feeling that her mental injuries/illness are invisible is making you feel guilty?

My mother (adult child) is not BPD. She has epilepsy that is not being well-managed, in part because she insists on making decisions she isn't cognitively capable of making. She felt a medication was causing her hair to fall out, her hair being a point of vanity for her, so she started flushing pills. This way she got her way without people nagging her. She does not want to be treated like a child yet she behaves like one. Around the same time she suffered a seizure that led to a fall and a brain bleed, with a fracture she is still recovering from.

These patterns run deep. Aging seems to reveal just how deep those grooves are.

[Methuen]

NW:

But my father knew. If he was sad about it, he didn't share that. The tendency was to blame me for somehow upsetting her. As to anything she did, we had to pretend it didn't happen.

Perhaps it is denial.  I mean, acknowledging it would mean he would have to do something.  How complicated would that have been?  On another level, and depending on personality traits, acknowledging it might be perceived to somehow be a reflection on him.  Perhaps the perceived path of lesser destruction was to tow her line, and deny what was happening to the kids so many layers deep.  

On my part, I am not comfortable talking about her because saying such things about your mother is considered disrespectful. The default is to assume the child is horrible for saying such things. In addition, I have been afraid to talk about her as I feared people would judge me poorly.

Exactly.  People will never get it if they haven’t experienced it.  NW, you mention that your husband winces.   I am wondering if he has ever once in your marriage been the target of one of her rages?  Or witnessed it directed onto you first hand?

But when he says things that imply we are not compatible, it's upsetting to me because, it's not just that.

I get this.  Before my H witnessed a direct rage including a verbal assault on me, he used to call mom and I “oil and water”.  Every time he said that, I knew he didn’t understand.  Thankfully he understands her now.  But he’s witnessed it, and I invited him to come to T with me, and now that he does more of her grocery shopping and other chores (I went back to work and he stepped up to give me a break), he sees the dysfunction first hand.  

Honestly, when mom has a meltdown now, her behavior shocks all of us.  Even me, if that makes sense.  There seems to be no bottom to how low she can go.  So it has to be shocking or unbelievable to other people too, if and when they finally see it.  

This is why moms home care team was  convinced she had a UTI after a rage on one of her care workers.  However, it’s still “explained away” as a bad day and single event, and therefore not reported  to her doctor.  


Yet, she can also be perfectly normal if her emotions are on an even keel.  

Hence the name borderline.  

Methuen, I cannot imagine the sadness you must've felt being alone in your knowledge about your mother's BPD and the impact that would have on you. Bessel van der Kolk has a quote, "Your reality is not allowed to be known. That is the trauma."

This is the truth.  There was complete aloneness when I landed on this site, and before my H “got it”.

All to say I'm glad you are not alone in experiencing this anymore. It is troubling that the health care team hasn't caught on -- is that where this stings the most? The difference again between what you experience and what others see.

yes.  Thanks so much for this LNL.  I had relayed all the pertinent facts to the mental health nurse on the home care team.  She listened reflectively and gave every indication she understood.  With examples.  And then last February when she did mom’s Rai assessment, she determined mom didn’t qualify for assisted living.  She asked for no input from family before she completed her assessment, despite telling me in previous meetings with her how important family input was to get a complete picture.  What do I do with all that? I assume she thinks I am the one with the mental health problems.

I'm just wondering if the feeling that her mental injuries/illness are invisible is making you feel guilty?

Thanks for asking.  I carried that guilt all my life.  But, I think, more recently I’ve let some of it go.  It’s been a journey, and I doubt the journey will be complete until she’s passed, and maybe not even then.

I can relate to your story of your mom flushing her pills, and then suffering a fall leading to a brain bleed. The behavior just leaves one feeling helpless because the injury is likely preventable - if they would just take the medicine. .  You  mentioned she is not BPD.  Just curious - does she not have abandonment issues?  Does she have a strong sense of self?  I’m just curious - no need to respond to that question if it’s uncomfortable.

[Notwendy]

BPD mother likes men. Her superpower has been her good looks and ability to charm even a rock. Although her looks have naturally faded with age, she can still be quite charming. She is very careful about what she lets people see and so only rages with immediate family in private. What is different now is that home health is around her more and she has raged at them.

She has not raged at my H. It's the opposite, she has tried to triangulate him against me. I don't think it's in any romantic way- she just wants him to side with her and so she acts especially sweet and charming to him. On his part, he has felt uncomfortable around her and keeps a distance.

He has used the term oil and water as well which tells me he doesn't get it. What he has seen is her effect on me emotionally. He has also seen my efforts and some of the ways my parents have interacted with me. He has also seen how she prefers the golden child sibling. I think he "gets" it to some extent, but it's such a foreign experience to him. It's like as if we grew up in different countries. I could tell him about my "country"- show pictures, speak the language, but he'd not fully know what it is like to live there.

[zachira]

Methuen,
A key factor in doing effective mental health assessments is that the professional doing the assessment is regularly working on and looking at their own mental health issues because if she/he can't admit to her/his own mental health challenges and address them, than she/he is blind to/denies the problems of her/his clients. Mental health professionals are often encouraged to do outside consults and/or get therapy when struggling with a client because all mental health professionals struggle with their own limitations. A strength of the members on PSI, is we get it more than most people, because we have dealt for many years with disordered family members and done lots of our own personal therapy. What do you think could be the reasons that the mental health nurse did not address your concerns about your mother's mental and physical health, and see your mother obviously can no longer live in her home without outside assistance? Maybe the mental health nurse has some hidden agenda, which she may or may not be aware of, perhaps a strong belief that elderly people should be allowed to stay in their homes when they are clear about not wanting to go to live in an institution. Perhaps the mental health nurse would never consider going to assisted living herself if her health were to deteriorate. What do you think? You do seem to be personalizing this, as if something were wrong with you, saying that maybe the mental health nurse thought you were the one with the mental health problems. It is not your fault in any way that an assessment was done on your mother which is obviously faulty and unprofessional. The mental health nurse lied to you telling you how important input from family was and then did not include your concerns about your mother in the assessment. It seems that there is some narcissism involved here, that the mental health nurse only values her own input, and cannot address the concerns of others, though she can pretend she cares. Is there any chance that this is the mental health nurse who gets along with your mother, so she is the one assigned to do her assessment?

[livednlearned]

You  mentioned she is not BPD.  Just curious - does she not have abandonment issues?  Does she have a strong sense of self?  I’m just curious - no need to respond to that question if it’s uncomfortable.

Emotionally she is a child. A therapist said that to my mom in family counseling once and my mom used to repeat this insight to people. (I miss the eye roll emoji on this board ...)

I guess if pwBPD have no sense of self, my mom has a tragically weak sense of self? She has been sheltered to a degree that is truly remarkable, and my dad (who had a hermit/waif BPD mother) treats her like a child.

She seems to have no fear of abandonment nor of engulfment. She is waif-like and I knew she wasn't a mother in the same sense that my friends had mothers. I knew from as far back as age 5 there was no point relying on her or asking for help because it would only upset her.

I believe there are many, many ways to resist becoming a fully formed emotionally resilient adult and she has seemingly embraced them all. In the words of a John Prine song, she is "another child that has grown old."

[Couscous]

I had relayed all the pertinent facts to the mental health nurse on the home care team.  She listened reflectively and gave every indication she understood.  With examples.  And then last February when she did mom’s Rai assessment, she determined mom didn’t qualify for assisted living.  She asked for no input from family before she completed her assessment, despite telling me in previous meetings with her how important family input was to get a complete picture.

OMG, so that was the outcome of her assessment? Incredible...

I agree with zachira that there's probably something going on with that nurse. Codependents are attracted to the helping professions so there is a high probability that the nurse is a codependent and your mom  may very well have recruited her as her ally and as such she will be acting as a codependent agent of your mother's. In addition she probably also gives a lot of weight to the fact that your mother was a nurse, so might be quite biased because of that. Of course this is going to activate in you all those old feelings of being completely alone in all of this, as well feelings of helplessness. Those are very difficult feelings to bear.

The only upside to all of this is that I think with that assessment you are legally off the hook now, is that correct? If that is true, then perhaps this is the time to "detach with love" as they say in Al-Anon. Especially since your mother seems to have turned this in to a huge power struggle with you. It seems to me like the only thing BPDs fear more than abandonment is being controlled, so perhaps if you "drop your end of the rope", she will stop digging in her heels. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

I believe there are many, many ways to resist becoming a fully formed emotionally resilient adult and she has seemingly embraced them all. In the words of a John Prine song, she is "another child that has grown old."

Do you think codependent pairing is in part what halts the growing process of this immature adults?

I just had this though that codependents appear to be, often, children that were asked to mature too fast... It would make sense that they tend to pair with emotionally immature people... Looking to balance themsemves, or to relive the known state of being the mature one of the relationship.

[Methuen]

BPD mother likes men.

 OK NW.  My antennae just shot straight up when I read this.  My mom "likes" men too.  I mean, she likes to flirt with them in a naughty way, but without any intent to go any further.  She would flirt  with the man who changes her tires, with the bodywork man who fixes the dents she put in her car, even the dude who comes to check her house alarm.  She has no shame.  For her, it's normal.  But there's a really twisted dichotomy about men going on inside her, because she also often makes disparaging comments such as "just like a man", and puts "men" down a LOT.  Does that ring true for you too?  Which begs the question:  why does she like to flirt with them?  (I think I know the answer, but it would be interesting to hear from others.)

He has used the term oil and water as well which tells me he doesn't get it... I think he "gets" it to some extent, but it's such a foreign experience to him. It's like as if we grew up in different countries. I could tell him about my "country"- show pictures, speak the language, but he'd not fully know what it is like to live there.

Right.  Same, until my H voluntarily stepped up and offered to take over some of the caretaking obligations.  Once he started interacting with her in that role, interestingly he began to see more of her behaviors - including the heavy FOG, the blame, how nothing is ever good enough.  He was already acutely aware of her need for attention, and her childishness.

The most amazing thing is that she flipped some internal switch and I have been replaced by H as her surrogate.  How weird is this?  Now she texts him when she has her toenails done, or what she had for supper (if someone else brought it). He never replies to these.  Somehow, she doesn't notice.  This "replacement" has shown me that there was truly never any kind of healthy mother/daughter "real" relationship.  I was simply there to meet her needs.  Because he is now doing her grocery shopping, and taking her to appointments, and HE is the one "meeting" her needs, he is the one who gets her  FOG texts or meaningless dribble texts.  Any one out there ever experienced this "replacement"?  It doesn't bother me one bit that I've been replaced at this point.  It's a true blessing, and I thank H every day that he's given me this gift.  Mom has mentally made him her surrogate parent instead of me.  Except that he doesn't play ball.  She rolls it to him, but he doesn't roll it back.  Instead he rolls his eyes. He knows how crazy it is, because he's directly involved in her care.

A key factor in doing effective mental health assessments is that the professional doing the assessment is regularly working on and looking at their own mental health issues because if she/he can't admit to her/his own mental health challenges and address them, than she/he is blind to/denies the problems of her/his clients...What do you think could be the reasons that the mental health nurse did not address your concerns about your mother's mental and physical health, and see your mother obviously can no longer live in her home without outside assistance? Maybe the mental health nurse has some hidden agenda, which she may or may not be aware of, perhaps a strong belief that elderly people should be allowed to stay in their homes when they are clear about not wanting to go to live in an institution. Perhaps the mental health nurse would never consider going to assisted living herself if her health were to deteriorate. What do you think?

Yep to the above. I think I'm looking at the issue logically.  H and I expressed to her in numerous long meetings, with examples, over 2 years, the history with mom.  She indicated understanding, with reflective listening, and examples that she understood.  Then she offers to do the RAI assessment, and we thought it made sense since she had knowledge of history and context.  But she comes up with results that say mom does not qualify for assisted living.  This is facepalm material.  The only logical explanations I can think of is that she is having her own huge issues, or redirecting to make me the problem.  She did ask if I was seeing a counsellor.

I don't care what she thinks anymore.  This is so negligent I have written her off now.  I agree with you that she must have her own issues, or biases, because something was going on inside her head so that she wasn't exercising reasonable professional judgement.  I had a convo with mom's family doctor after one of her recent dust ups (dust up - not accepting home care to put necessary drops in her eyes to retain her vision - she has Parkinson's), and discussed her behavior and the Rai assessment with him.  He looked up the Rai and confirmed the result I already knew, and in his words " we will find a way to go around the Rai assessment".  So at her next appointment with him (H took her), doc said that her medical issues were very complex (she liked hearing that - more attention) and said he wanted a geriatrician to look at her meds to make sure he (doc) wasn't missing anything (because he couldn't solve her problems).   When the referral was being made, H asked her in front of doc and nurse if mom wanted me to be the point of contact when the call comes for the appointment to be made.  Mom agreed and they took my number.  I wouldn't be surprised if mom called the nurse the next day and changed that.  I am honestly at the point where I don't expect anything progressive to move forward in her geriatric care.  She is still able to pull many shenanigans, and cause chaos.  She has a history of cancelling appointments she doesn't want.  Why would she want to see a geriatrician?  Doc navigated the whole convo expertly at the time, but he's still no match for my mom.

She seems to have no fear of abandonment nor of engulfment. She is waif-like and I knew she wasn't a mother in the same sense that my friends had mothers. I knew from as far back as age 5 there was no point relying on her or asking for help because it would only upset her.

And there it is.  Somehow we, the children, had to be the responsible ones.  Somehow we muddled through being raised (often by raising ourselves), but there is always a hole there for the missing part eh? The nurturing mother we never had?  Especially when we saw how other mothers interacted with their kids?  And we wish we could have that mother too?  Today I am happy for my friends who having healthy caring reciprocal relationships with their mothers.

Codependents are attracted to the helping professions so there is a high probability that the nurse is a codependent and your mom  may very well have recruited her as her ally and as such she will be acting as a codependent agent of your mother's. In addition she probably also gives a lot of weight to the fact that your mother was a nurse, so might be quite biased because of that.

Yes to all of the above.  

The only upside to all of this is that I think with that assessment you are legally off the hook now, is that correct? If that is true, then perhaps this is the time to "detach with love" as they say

This was early advice I got on this board about 3 years ago, and it rang true.
 I have been working on it ever since.  In January, I came out of retirement to go back to work and my mom had a nuclear meltdown at me with this news. But I persevered.  H picked up some of the tasks I used to do (grocery shopping) so she could stay in her own home (since she refuses assisted living and would rather die).  She has since enlisted other people to meet her needs.  They have trouble saying no to her.  She is pathetically waify, and people who know her (friends) have trouble saying no I suspect.  That is their problem to figure out.  But detach with love is what I have done.

Especially since your mother seems to have turned this in to a huge power struggle with you. It seems to me like the only thing BPDs fear more than abandonment is being controlled, so perhaps if you "drop your end of the rope", she will stop digging in her heels.

 Yep.  The real problem is that she is living "assisted living" and although we have cut down on what we do for her, she is still a very big and demanding obligation in our lives.  I've definitely dropped my end of the rope.    As many on this board have probably figured out, my H is a bit of a people pleaser, so he does enough for mom to keep her happy, but not so much that she feels she has enough control to abuse him.  Currently it's a tenuous tightrope.  And we try to go on with our work and recreation lives.  But every time her emotions go haywire, it's another crisis.  We are sick to death of this cycle.  In learning to do less, we are enabling less, and hopefully letting other people see "more" that needs to be seen.  We have no idea if it is working.  Honestly, I think her friends are just good people, "helping" and "enabling" like we used to.  But ultimately, the buck rests with me as daughter, when she "falls", has a "meltdown",  or her water line breaks.








 

[Couscous]

The real problem is that she is living "assisted living" and although we have cut down on what we do for her, she is still a very big and demanding obligation in our lives.  

But ultimately, the buck rests with me as daughter, when she "falls", has a "meltdown",  or her water line breaks.

Ah, well that is unfortunate then.