How do I know when to leave for the kids' sake?

[Protectourfamily]

My husband has (unofficially diagnosed) BPD, possibly as a result of an abusive and traumatic childhood. We have a bunch of kids, and our life is fraught with constant emotional ups and downs. It's like living on the spout of a volcano. It can be calm for hours, days, sometimes even weeks ... and then Boom!
I have become so much better at defusing conflict when it happens, but it does happen, and my kids (from toddler to teen) get shaken up when it comes. He can be borderline abusive, full of rage. My kids are having trouble socially and academically (how would you like to study math or play a board game as lava starts spewing?).
We all love my husband very much and know that he loves us. He is in therapy and on medication but it has only helped so much. His psychiatrist and therapist say there is nothing further that meds or therapy can offer him re: parenting/marriage.
When do I give up? I would keep trying forever, but my kids are on shaky ground.

[scraps66]

For me it was coming to the realization that she was willfully attacking and belittling intentionally in front of the kids and as long as I was present, this was going to continue.  It has not been "great" living separately as she shifted to other tactics, but it certainly reduced the opportunities for demonstrated abuse in front of a 2 and 4 year old at the time.

[Protectourfamily]

That's a good point, that the kids will still be exposed to his behavior even if we split up.
Although he does "attack and belittle" the kids (those were very well-chosen words!), he actually does not do it intentionally to hurt them. He thinks it's legitimate parenting and "educational" methods. Wait ... does that mean it IS intentional? And does it matter if it's intentional or not? Either way, he doesn't seem capable of any level of self-awareness that would be required to change effectively. But I do think on some level the kids know he loves them, and the good times are great. That makes the bad times so much mroe hurtful ...

[Notwendy]

I grew up with this kind of thing (BPD mother) so yes, I know what it is like to try to do homework when there is chaos and raging going on. Sometimes the teachers were concerned that I didn't consistently do homework. Of course, there was no way I could tell them the real reason. I tried that once, the principle called my mother in, and she came in as her charming self and it was assumed I was making it up.

Your next question is harder. I don't think there's an exact correct answer. The decision to stay or leave is nuanced. The home situation will impact the kids. In the case of divorce, there will also be contact with the disordered parent.

It may sound backwards but I think the best decision for the children is the one that is best for you. They say on an airplane to put your mask on first, then assist others. If you can't live in the same house emotionally or physically safely, then it's not good for them either. If you believe it's workable and want to try that route, it's up to you as well.
If your boundary is how he treats the kids, then you need to protect them. If you need to call 911 or child protective services during his rages, then you need to do that.

In my own situation, it's hard to know if it would have been better for my parents to stay together or to split. I think it would have had a different impact either way- both positive and also difficult. My mother did not harm us physically so there wasn't immediate danger of injury. My father did make efforts to mitigate this for us. We sometimes stayed with relatives and it was a way to get away from the situation for us. I think you will hear from posters who have stayed and who have left and maybe that will help you decide.

[Protectourfamily]

Thank you, Notwendy. That is such a valuable perspective: I feel like getting to talk to my kids in the future through your post. It offers a lot of clarity and resonates with me (echoes what my therapist has been saying, but from a different point of view). I will be rereading this!

[ForeverDad]

There is no single fix that resolves all the concerns.  However, there are partial solutions that can improve circumstances.  Many here faced with this quandary eventually turn to the courts to enable giving the children part of their lives calm and stability in a separate home.

Part of my leaving is so that my kids at least have one place they can go to that is stable and where they can feel safe and not be verbally abused.

Exactly!

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

[Manic Miner]

In my own situation, it's hard to know if it would have been better for my parents to stay together or to split. I think it would have had a different impact either way- both positive and also difficult. My mother did not harm us physically so there wasn't immediate danger of injury. My father did make efforts to mitigate this for us. We sometimes stayed with relatives and it was a way to get away from the situation for us. I think you will hear from posters who have stayed and who have left and maybe that will help you decide.

Notwendy has a point here as well. I'm still struggling this myself. My ambivalence is still pressuring me deeply. On one hand I'd want to start living healthy, to heal myself after years and years of being with someone with high-functioning BPD and my codependency issues. On another hand, I still have a feelings for her and I'm not sure if I move on, how will my daughter do with her alone? My daughter has special needs and has trouble to describe her feelings in so much detail. So I will be at mercy of my W to do it instead. Knowing my W, if her emotions are stirred and in trouble, distortion happens.

NotWendy said here that it was her father that mitigated and shielded them from their BPD mother. That's a role I'm considering myself and honestly, still don't know what's best.

Oh what ForeverDad said here in the time of my writing is also true, very much so.

[zachira]

The best way to decide whether or not to leave for the children's wellbeing, is to make a plan to leave with professional help and knowledge of what could happen so you do not suddenly just get fed up and leave, making it more difficult to protect your children and yourself from his meltdowns. There are many parents on this site, who have gone back and forth when evaluating whether it is better to stay for the children's sake or to leave so the children have a safe haven at least part time. Do read Bill Eddy's book on divorcing a person with BPD or NPD (on Amazon), and get a consult with a divorce lawyer knowledgeable about divorcing a high conflict person. Above all, make sure you learn how to legally document your husband's behaviors that make him unsafe to be around your children, so if you do decide to leave, you have the best chances of getting most of the custody of the children, if not full time custody. A carefully planned exit will help you when deciding whether to stay or to leave. I am not telling you whether you should leave or stay. What I am saying is having a plan and legal documentation of how his behaviors are a danger to your children are key steps to getting help for your children at any time whether you decide to stay or leave.  There is no way to know when or if you will decide to leave for the children's wellbeing and yours as well. Be patient, informed, and keep all options open.

[Protectourfamily]

I think that is actually very calming advice, zachira. Thank you. If I know I have a careful plan set up, I will get less frightened and shaken up during the roller coaster of his explosions, which actually improves my chances for not needing to split up ... Someone once told me that I should get my ducks lined up just in case. I guess this is what he meant, in practical form.

[Couscous]

Thank you for heeding your intuition and mama bear instincts and having the willingness and courage to consider this option.

My perspective on this as the daughter of a BPD mother and the aunt of 5 nieces and nephews who have a BPD father is that the best time to leave an abusive marriage for the sake of the kids is as soon as humanly possible — and then to work earnestly on one’s own recovery in order to provide a healthy home environment and be a healthy role-model for one’s children. Yes, there will be short-term pain, but you and your children will reap the benefits.

Keep reminding yourself that it is your husbands behavior that has left you with no choice and that you have nothing to feel guilty about. It’s our bleeding hearts that keep us ensnared in abusive relationships. The good news is that guilt isn’t fatal, but we do have to be willing to tolerate guilt feelings for a time. Knowing that you are doing right by your kids will likely help alleviate any guilt feelings you may have to contend with.

You may also be interested in checking out Kristin Neff’s work on what she calls fierce self-compassion. Best wishes.

[livednlearned]

Bill Eddy also has a book called Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When One Parent Has BPD (or something like that). Even if you don't plan to divorce, the message is the same. He puts his core message of "flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behaviors" into a parenting approach.

Some of the issues have to do with how well you, as the emotional leader in your family, can tolerate and skillfully help your kids manage the lava.

My son said to me after I left his dad, "I wish you had protected me sooner." It's something that haunts me. It was hard to protect him (though I tried, of course) not knowing about BPD (I learned after the divorce). Whether you can apply the skills while managing the lava is only something you can know since the severity can fall along a spectrum, as well as your own abilities and skills to manage.

One thing I wish I had for my son is a therapist. If your nervous system is jacked up, your kids will be having an even harder time. They will need someone skilled to help them feel validated (another essential skill for you).

That your husband is getting some help and is on medication suggests he has some awareness. Would you say that's accurate? Does he go through tender cycles where he feels remorseful?

Bill Eddy describes degrees of severity. He differentiates between:

*generally cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, dangerous

By dangerous, he means domestic violence, false allegations, substance abuse, legal abuse, suicidal ideation, risky behaviors.

If your H were in the dangerous category, that's when you want to be prepared. Altho with my H, whose ex was not cooperative, not dangerous, she was on a path to severe parental alienation with two of the three kids. It seemed to reach those levels when her affair became public -- where we lived, having an affair was legal grounds to not get alimony (alienation of affection laws). The shame (?) or fear (?) seemed to kick her BPD traits into a higher gear.

Meaning, sometimes pwBPD slide into the dangerous category when the situation seems to feel unmanageable.

If I could do it again, I would focus on my son's well-being and trying to apply the skills as best I could. The ones recommended for our BPD spouses work even better with non-BPD people, including kids (especially validation). Power of Validation for Kids was a game changer for me with my son. Same with You Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms and Love and Logic -- can't remember the authors. The last book helped offset some of the severe parenting my n/BPDx would resort to. And of course, any book on boundaries.

The problem is that we're often so exhausted parenting what amounts to an adult child. He looks like an adult and may function like one and can pass as one, but there is this periodic horror show. If you can't parent your kids the way you know they need to be, that is a challenging fork in the road to be at.

Even though I didn't have the BPD language, I knew there was no way I could parent my child the way he needed and stay married.

For some of us, the path is clear. When it isn't, there may be some things you can try -- this will require much strength. If you don't already, you will most certainly need a therapist so you have support, in addition to peer support from people who understand what it's like to walk in these shoes.

Like your buddies here 

[kells76]

Love and Logic -- can't remember the authors

I think Jim Fay was one.

[Couscous]

My son said to me after I left his dad, "I wish you had protected me sooner."

Kids sure are smart. My SIL told me a couple of years ago that my then14 yr old niece had been telling her for "years" to divorce her BPD father (my brother). Sadly SIL has a savior complex and is determined that if she can read enough self-help books in order to finally crack the code on how to the perfect wife, that this will enable him to have a corrective emotional experience. In reality all that she's doing is enabling him to continue being abusive -- and her children are the ones who are going to pay a very steep price for that.

[livednlearned]

I should add, too, that I truly believed I was protecting my son.

But protection can look very flimsy if you think about what an abuser is doing and what real safety looks like.

If a stranger did to my son what n/BPDx did, I would unleash my full fury and get whatever protection I could put in place.

But because the abuse was in the family, what I considered protection was essentially appeasing, avoiding, enabling, and walking on egg shells. I repeated my FOO dysfunction, precisely.

I thought I could manage n/BPDx with no outside help. No sunlight.

I wish I didn't let things get so bad before taking action. I wish I had learned how to validate my son earlier so he didn't feel so alone.

The year everything fell apart, I had a meeting with then S9's teacher and told her there were problems at home. I discreetly implied that drinking was a problem for n/BPDx, to please be nurturing with S9.

S9 was, and is, uncommonly intelligent but he was struggling to manage the stress and it showed in his grades. I was worried less about his grades and more about his mental well-being and wanted his teacher to look out for him and not be so tough on his academics, which were good but not to the level they expected of him. Everything they sent home created hell for S9, with him regularly in tears over homework he could do, but wouldn't, because he was so emotionally flooded.

One day, S9 had a particularly hard day at school following a night of verbal abuse, with n/BPDx yelling at S9 for not riding his bike properly. S9 had wobbled a bit and fell. n/BPDx yelled, "See, I told you something bad was going to happen, you scratched your bike, numb nuts." S9 got up and rode his bike home and went straight to his room. I went in to comfort him and told him, "Daddy had a mom who was mean to him .." and S9 interrupted and said, "I don't care. Just because his mom was mean to him doesn't mean he gets to be mean to me."

I mean, listen to your kids. They see these situations more clearly than we do.

S9 was struggling the next day at school so the teacher invited S9 to regroup in her office, and later he told her his dad was mean to him.

I'm probably telling this story more for me at this point -- it pains me so deeply to think of the suffering S9 experienced during those episodes. I don't know if this is helpful to anyone.

To comfort him, the teacher told S9 about AA, that maybe it could help his dad.

When I picked up S9 from school he was positively brimming with hope and it both broke my heart and worried me. He was certain n/BPDx would get help once S9 told him about AA and I was certain things would explode.

I think this 2-day episode was the major turning point for me as a parent, recognizing that I had to choose between protecting S9 or protecting n/BPDx. Should I train S9 to make excuses for his dad? Do I teach him how to appease his dad? Do I try to get teachers to be nice to S9 because he's being abused at home and I can't make it better?

I had been telling S9 this dumb story about a bear who kept eating berries that made the bear angry and mean to all the other animals in the forest. I was trying to help S9 find fault in the bear's actions, not the little animals, who kept thinking they did something wrong.

That's how I thought I was protecting him.

Instead, S9 came home with this hand grenade, excited to tell n/BPDx how to fix his problem with alcohol: get help.

I wavered about whether to shut S9 down so he didn't mention anything. What would that teach him, though?

Parallel to all this, I was putting in place an exit plan but we were months away from go time. It felt dangerous to be throwing grenades that could upend a safe exit.

I ended up giving n/BPDx a careful heads up that S9 was going to talk to him about AA, something he learned about at school.

Didn't go well.

S9 felt great sharing his information, he was so sure and certain that this would help his dad.  It was worth it just to see this enormous weight come off his shoulders. He skipped away from the dinner table, that's how confident and happy he was.

Fortunately, most of n/BPDx's wrath was redirected at me. How could I permit people to spread lies like this? n/BPDx did back off some of his nightly tirades about S9 and homework but the drinking got worse and his paranoia increased. It's hard to put into words the level of dread I felt, although if anyone can understand, it's probably people here.

It's complicated trying to leave an abusive situation -- the understatement of all time. It's hard to raise kids on your own and make it through a divorce with a high-conflict spouse, a nightmare for many of us. The saving grace is that you are able to tackle that nightmare from a place of relative place of peace and quiet.

10+ years later and S9 is now a young adult. I know it isn't a straight comparison, but H (who also married and divorced a pwBPD) has a less connected relationship with his three kids (23, 25, 28). One of those kids has BPD herself. All of our kids are troubled in some ways. SD28 has been in two significant relationships with partners who were abusive, and she's an exceptionally smart person who comes across confident and capable.

All 3 step kids have a relationship with their dad, but they're angry at him too. He intended to leave when the kids were grown but his exBPDw had an affair and that gave H leverage in our state and de-fanged some of the inevitable parental alienation his ex was already doing inside the marriage. They know he's a protective dad in all ways except when it comes to their mom.

What this stretch of parenting in young adulthood is teaching me is that we, as the non-BPD emotional leaders in our families, shape their formative selves during school years in ways that will affect them for life. Hitting 18 is not a magic age when the previous 17 were riddled with abuse.

Even though it took me close to a decade, I'm grateful I put S9 first, even if it happened late. It put us in a precarious situation but the lesson did stick. I am a person he can trust, even though I'm deeply flawed. "I wish you had protected me sooner" does acknowledge that I protected him.

I'm equally grateful for the luck that helped me the years following divorce, including discovering this board and promotions at work to help me make ends meet financially and small (and big) things that went my way by the grace of God. I say this because protecting S9 did involve both planning and luck, and later a lot of learning about emotional resilience and trauma.

I guess the question for you is: What are your kids learning from you? Really, really learning. Not what you want them to believe, but what they truly believe. I think start there. Look carefully at what your behaviors are teaching them. Maybe you can teach them how to be emotionally resilient and your spouse will tolerate those tiny little changes.

And throughout all of this, don't forget to be gentle with yourself. Those of us surviving abusive relationships don't need to kick ourselves when we're already on the receiving end of abuse.

Figuring out how to raise kids in an abusive marriage is a slow, hard process, a bit like detonating a bomb. Take your time to think about what's best, what might work for your situation, what skills and abilities work with your spouse, how to apply those skills safely with your kids, what your values are and what boundaries can you implement without bringing the house down, at least in the immediate future. Be neurotic and ask the questions over and over -- each time you do, you'll learn more about what you think, feel, and believe is right for you.

Be slow, kind, thoughtful, honest, safe.

 

[Couscous]

In my own situation, it's hard to know if it would have been better for my parents to stay together or to split.

My BPD brother's newest wife, who is an Adult Child of an alcoholic, just got out of a highly abusive marriage (her ex will likely serve time in prison) when she met my brother, and promptly married him. I should have warned her about what she was getting herself into, but my brother outsmarted me on that one, and made sure I only had a chance to meet her once before he announced after the fact that they had got married. :/

[Couscous]

I wish I didn't let things get so bad before taking action. I wish I had learned how to validate my son earlier so he didn't feel so alone.

Parallel to all this, I was putting in place an exit plan but we were months away from go time.

It sounds like you began validating your son at around the same time as you were putting together your exit plan and I think that was key. My SIL who is the mother of the niece I mentioned above, has been validating my nieces since day 1, and I really do not see that it is helping them at all, as they both have pretty severe trauma symptoms. Essentially the message she is sending is: "I hear how much you're hurting -- and I have no intention of doing anything about it." I think that is even more damaging than getting no validation at all.

[zaqsert]

Thank you for sharing all that, livednlearned. I remember the earlier part of your story and your exit from when I first came here 9 years ago.

I sometimes wonder whether something like "I wish you had protected me sooner" may haunt me too. I suppose I wasn't ready before, unfortunately. Glad I'm finally ready now.

[15years]

I'm probably telling this story more for me at this point -- it pains me so deeply to think of the suffering S9 experienced during those episodes. I don't know if this is helpful to anyone.

Wow, this broke me down in tears, I have been holding it in for some time. The level of stress and anxiety is exhausting.

S9 felt great sharing his information, he was so sure and certain that this would help his dad.  It was worth it just to see this enormous weight come off his shoulders. He skipped away from the dinner table, that's how confident and happy he was.
So sad and beautiful at the same time... I recognize this bravery/naivety in my own kids. Always there, curious and worried, hoping for peace.

Maybe it was important for your son to tell his father this. To not let fear overtake him.

[livednlearned]

Maybe it was important for your son to tell his father this. To not let fear overtake him.

I think that's the parenting piece that is so tough for us. We want to protect our kids by teaching them to follow our lead. And for many of us, that means appease and enable and tolerate abuse.

It can't just be that we protect them. It has to also be that we teach them how to be emotionally resilient, how to protect themselves. For that to happen, we have to know what it means to be emotionally resilient and practice what we learn so it's modeled and seen.

Not easy.

[Protectourfamily]

I just wanted to say that I have been traveling overseas without a phone or any access to the site, and reading everyone's posts now has been so healing for me.
It's incredible how much wisdom the brave family created here is able to share.
Thank you all.