Rescuers are secretly Persecutors

[Couscous]

Super interesting theory! I can see how even as a child in my Hero role I was in effect, enabling my mother. Had I refused to play this role, my mother likely would have lost custody of us kids, which would have been both in her (perhaps she would have hit bottom an sought help) and in our best interests.

THE COMPASSION TRIANGLE

The Compassion Triangle is drawn with a + sign in the center of the triangle. It offers
the theory that once someone is in the Drama Triangle they will automatically be in all
three roles at once, either in socially identified roles, or as denied roles, overtly and
covertly. Hidden motives can be conscious, subconscious, or as “unintended
consequences.” All three need to be considered to get a three dimensional view of
games.

Fig. a. The angry boss, as Identified Persecutor, is scolding and embarrassing the
secretary. But secretly the boss is the Victim of the secretary’s careless work, and of
his/her own job insecurity based on office production; and is also secretly a Rescuer in
attempts to train employees to meet high standards and by openly complaining instead
of secretly firing the secretary.

Fig. b. The Identified Rescuer can be a co-dependent in a dysfunctional family, but is
secretly a Persecutor by enabling the game, and secretly a Victim who won’t escape.

Fig. c. The Identified Victim is the classic “Identified Patient” in the example below, the
scapegoat Victim in the dysfunctional family. But as Rescuer, serves as a lightning rod
by diverting parental anger and to keep the family together, and as Persecutor, by
continually making the game more and more difficult to solve.

https://karpmandramatriangle.com/pdf/thenewdramatriangles.pdf

[Turkish]

TA, transactional analysis, is fascinating. My T turned me onto it. As a Gen-xer, I'd heard of "Games People Play." Karpman was a protégé of Eric Berne.

TA and Karpman Triangulation seems easy to understand on the surface, but there's a lot of grad-level "meat" when dug into.

After the mother of our pups left, one of my close friends, 10 years older,  told me that he viewed our r/s as "daddy- daughter." That horrified me, but I had already come to conclude that. My mom was BPD. Both of her parents were either BPD or BPD-ish.

To be honest, I was following a script, unknowingly. Persecutor, Victim, Rescuer. Members can switch places in the triangle. So was my ex. A dysfunctional dance.

As a child with my mom? That's taken me more years to analyze.i didn't know what I didn't know, as a child, cast into roles subservient, without power.

As an adult: I felt good about being a Rescuer, even with some resentment (casting myself as Victim). Then my mom viewed me as Persecutor which reinforced my thoughts as me being a Victim. Once again, as an adult years out of my romantic r/s, I once again danced dysfunctionally.

Personally, I validated myself as a Rescuer. My T said, "there's nothing wrong with being a Rescuer." It's the lack of perspective and boundaries that can become problematic.

[Notwendy]

Yes, I have also read one can play all three roles with any number of people.

Even with oneself- a person feels bad (victim) - reaches for a drink, or buys something expensive - (rescuer- rescuing themselves)- then the consequences - a hangover, or financially in trouble (persecutor)

I have also read that all three roles lead to feeling like a victim.

[ThanksForPlaying]

Transactional Analysis IS fascinating. I'm now able to identify many of these roles in various places in my life.

I'm curious - what's the point? (not sarcastic)

What do Karpman et al suggest is the benefit of identifying these roles? What would Karpman say a healthy relationship should look like?

1) A heathly person never takes on any of these roles?
This seems impossible, since almost every interaction can be loosely defined by a victim and rescuer. You needed a ride to work? You were the victim and I rescued you.

2) A healthy person doesn't fall into the same role frequently? Moderation?

3) Does having roles in a relationship automatically suggest the relationship is dysfunctional?

[Notwendy]

This is a model for dysfunctional relationships.

Giving a friend a ride to work isn't a rescuer- victim relationship.

This may sound confusing. A counselor helped me to understand the distinction.

Actions may be similar. It's the dynamics between people that are dysfunctional.

A distinction between interdependent and co-dependent. An emotionally healthy relationship is interdependent.

Victim perspective in most functional adults is a disordered perspective. Victims are powerless, they have no choices. Someone who needs a ride to work is not a victim. They have choices. They can call a cab, or a friend, or take the bus. They have not experienced injustice.

Rescuers are co-dependent. A person choosing to give a friend a ride to work isn't being co-dependent.

Now, if this person agreed to give the friend a ride to work when they didn't want to, and it also made them late for work, jeopardizing their job, but said yes due to FOG- then it's being co-dependent. They take on rescuer role to avoid saying no, to look like the good guy, but they feel resentful and like a victim if their boss got angry at them. "It's my friend's fault, he made me late for work". But this person isn't a true victim, they had choices.

So, giving a friend a ride to work is the same action. The disorder comes in the dysfunctional thinking.

I think there are rarer incidents where someone who isn't disordered takes persecutor position. That can be a self defense response but it's more often when someone is thinking like a victim (dysfunctional). They lash out in self defense but they were not ever in danger in the first place.

[Notwendy]

One key distinction the counselor helped me with is to stay aware of feeling resentful and to ask, am I doing something for someone that they can do themselves?

If I am willing or want to do something for someone, and I don't feel resentful afterwards- then this is not co-dependency ( rescuer). I am not taking a role on the Karpman triangle.

If I say yes, but really mean no, then I am not being authentic. This is being co-dependent (rescuer). One clue is that I would feel resentful ( victim role)  of doing this.

Let's say my neighbor has two cars and I have one car. Neighbor's car is in shop and he keeps asking me to him to work even though he could drive his other car. Neighbor doesn't offer to carpool or give me a ride. Neighbor can easily drive themselves to work. I keep driving them, and eventually feel resentful. This is Karpman triangle.

Neighbor has one car and it is in the shop. He needs a ride to the shop. I take him.  If I need a ride one day, he takes me. This is interdependence- not dysfunction.

[ThanksForPlaying]

Thanks Notwendy - this is a very helpful explanation for me.

It helps me to understand how it's dysfunctional thinking/feeling that defines these roles - not actions themselves.

"I need a ride to work - I'm having a bad day"

is different from

"I need a ride to work because nothing ever goes right for me and the universe hates me and you owe me a ride because this is all your fault"

[Notwendy]

Exactly- People pleasing falls into the dysfunctional category. It was the normal for us kids- we had to act and do what BPD mother wanted. Saying no to her had very scary consequences. It takes some work to change this behavior but is worth it. I think many of us here can relate to being afraid to say "no".

[zachira]

This certainly applies to many of my disordered family members who rescue the golden children and persecute the scapegoats.

[Riv3rW0lf]

What I like about Karpman triangle is that it is a great tool to identify my own views of the world, and how I feel about something, but this is what it remains : my own view of someone else's actions. In truth : I have no idea how someone else is identifying themselves and how they are labelling me in their heads, as long as they don't clearly communicate it. The uncertainty, the not knowing, is what seems to stir people outside the triangle INTO the triangle of an "abuser"... Putting my thoughts together here...

My mother told me often I was ungrateful. She sees herself as a rescuer trying to help me. She is a victim of my ungratefulness... My mother acts as a rescuer so she can, later on, show everyone how nice , kind and compassionate she is, and point to the other saying : I did all those things and now they are treating me poorly (because we don't do as she asks). This is part of our dynamic.

Personnally, when I help someone, I do so because I want to, and I don't expect anything in return, I don't do it so I can hold it above their head later on. I can become resentful, however, when, for example, my husband will say he is displeased because I am not cooking something else. I don't act as a victim though : I tell him right away that I don't appreciate his demands, considering I am the one cooking all the time. I enjoy cooking for my family, but I don't like that he feels "entitled" to it (I cook for him, for me and for my children, and we simply don't all like the same things, so some nights, he is the one that feels left out). In all truth, this is a recurring theme for him. But everytime, he can see himself and say he is sorry. No drama. Healthy exchange.

My mother though doesn't clearly communicate. This is the main source of the drama. She rescues to be able to relive a specific trauma she carries, so she can feel like a victim of others. She doesn't even hear us say "thank you" anymore. She rewrites reality to suit her inner turmoils. Her view of the world is not anchored in reality, it is anchored in her emotions. "I feel resentment after doing this, it is because they weren't grateful and didnt validate me. I am invisible, I don't matter." This is what she relives time and time again, no matter what the outside world is actually doing. What she doesn't realize is that by doing so : she is really persecuting everyone around her by emotionally blackmailing them (and one could argue persecuting herself by driving everyone around her to distance).

No one will look at themselves as persecutors, but everyone in the triangle, no matter their role, is a persecutor because they stir drama and chaos into the lives of others when they don't share their deeper needs.

Not communicating, not taking care of one real's need, is when one builds resentment and falls into the triangle. And we can ALL do it once in a while. We ALL stir drama around ourselves once in a while.

The big difference between me and my mother is the frequency at which we do it. She is almost always in the triangle, while I am in it when deeply tired, highly stressed or C-PTSD. And usually : I can see myself, do self care and snap out of it. At the very least, I try to mitigate the impacts my emotions could have on others.

It takes a lot of self awareness to clearly communicate our deep needs, feelings and emotions with calm, and it takes a lot of emotional maturity to recognize when we persecuted someone else, because we all do sometimes. Sometimes we can see ourselves and apologize right away. Other times, like with my diner exemple, the other needs to point out to us that we were hurtful to them.

Sometimes when communicating, we can realize that all parties are hurt, or in pain, and walk forward with a compromise, a solution, both agreeing to be more mindful next time.

No one (except, psychopaths and serial killers maybe ) persecutes someone else's willingly. In the persecutor's head is a need, a vulnerability that has not yet been communicated. Abusers are people that never learned to contact those deep needs, and even less so to express them healthily. They don't know any better and refuse to be taught. They are not in the present. They are reliving past hurts, disconnected from reality and they refuse to meet others halfway because they would need to recognize that they were persecutors and confront the shame and guilt head on, which is something they just don't have the emotional maturity to do.

The key is clear communication and being welcoming of the other.

[Turkish]

Karpman's Persecutor is analogous to Berne's "Parent" role when engaging in "strokes" (interactions) with others, as opposed to a mature "Adult" response-interaction. I never made it through all of Games People Play, but the Parent-Child responses seem analogous to the Karpman Persecutor-Victim roles. Is being an Adult stepping out of the KT? Not all triangulation is bad.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Karpman's Persecutor is analogous to Berne's "Parent" role when engaging in "strokes" (interactions) with others, as opposed to a mature "Adult" response-interaction. I never made it through all of Games People Play, but the Parent-Child responses seem analogous to the Karpman Persecutor-Victim roles. Is being an Adult stepping out of the KT? Not all triangulation is bad.

Not only is it not all bad, but I think triangulation is inevitable. Most interactions are this way. I think one of the problems might also be the constant switching, which lead to a lot of confusion, and the exaggeration that happens when someone is not taking responsibility for themselves, which comes out as abuse.

It helps to define roles to see the abuse and the drama more clearly, and to decrease confusion, but there is no role fits all. I find that, when I start evaluation my own mother, she switches within seconds from one role to another, there is no consistency, because there is no self-awareness, nor emotional stability.

Awareness of the triangle helps regain control as healthy adults i.e. to choose which role we will take or to refrain from engaging because we can see what risks happening with a disordered person, but it doesn't mean the interactions will stop.

A good example is last time I fought with my husband. Before the confrontation, I felt he was persecuting me, and he felt I was persecuting him. We were both victims of one another, and we were both right. With a healthy individuals, clear communication will bring back stability. Not with a disordered person.

Also, I don't think one can just decide to step out of their main role. I am a "rescuer", albeit, I see myself more as a "doer". I do things, I go around, I clean, I cook, I shop, I manage, I am industrious, that's just my personality. But I don't have to build resentment over the fact that my husband doesn't do as much. He does things to his own level and I can focus on the other positives of the relationships, like how he helps me become the best version of myself by supporting me in my projects, without trying to change me. Then, to not fall into the drama, I have take breaks when I start being tired, self-care is key. Most times, my building resentment is because I pushed MYSELF over my OWN limits. It has nothing to do with him. I could blame him. But in the end, I am responsible for myself.

My mother blames others for who she is because she cannot accept herself and work with herself.

This sense of responsibility is what keeps one out of the DRAMA triangle... Not out of the triangle though.

[Notwendy]

I didn't read Games People Play but from work on co-dependency, I think the distinction is when someone is taking victim perspective ( and isn't a victim ).

When interacting in KT dynamics, people assume all 3 roles at some point. When BPD mother is acting as persecutor, she is taking victim perspective. The abusive behavior is justified to her as a sort of self defense. She then "rescues" herself from accountability.

One of the practices people did in 12 step groups ( and also in counseling ) was that when someone began venting about what someone else did to them, someone would turn the mirror on them and ask them to consider their part in it, or their choices. This has been interpreted as being unsupportive or unsympathetic but the goal was to get them out of "victim" thinking, not to blame the victim of someone's bad behavior but because victim perspective is disempowering and keeps them on the KT.

Taking persecutor role on the KT results from victim perspective. "How could they do this to me?" They feel they have no choice and don't feel accountable for their actions.

Taking a persecutor role as an adult is actually a choice, made in the best interest of the other person or some other good. It is not from victim perspective. Examples might be a teacher giving a student a low grade for poor classwork. It's not meant to punish in a negative or hurtful way. It's to motivate the student to study more and become more competent. Another might be when an officer arrests a criminal, to keep them from harming others.

[Couscous]

Is being an Adult stepping out of the KT?

Yes, that is correct. I am in a TA therapy group and the goal is to stay in our Adult most of the time.

And yes, critical parent is the ego state assumed when one is in the persecutor role. And when someone initiates a “transaction” (interaction) with you from their CP ego state, then what you would need to do is consciously resist the urge to automatically respond from your child ego state, and to instead respond from your Adult. This is called a crossed transaction and is how you stay off of the drama triangle. For anyone interested you can Google “crossed transactions” for examples of this.