Nothing normal about having been a "daddy's girl"

[Our abuse recovery guide]

The tendency to feel attraction or fantasize...even though I don't want to act on it! It is certainly something, for both of us, to be very aware and careful but also to focus on our healing so that we don't harm our marriage.

I also think just making a decision to slam the door on any budding attraction can go a long way to combatting this. When I realized how much I would talk with my H’s (married!) best male friend and that I was beginning to feel some attraction, I decided to stop talking to him one-on-one, and that completely solved the problem and the feelings completely fizzled out.

[Couscous]

The tendency to feel attraction or fantasize...even though I don't want to act on it! It is certainly something, for both of us, to be very aware and careful but also to focus on our healing so that we don't harm our marriage.

I also think just making a decision to slam the door on any budding attraction can go a long way to combatting this. When I realized how much I would talk with my H’s (married!) best male friend and that I was beginning to feel some attraction, I decided to stop talking to him one-on-one, and that completely solved the problem and the feelings completely fizzled out.

[Notwendy]

Very much raised in the religious "purity movement" that was all about NOT dating, NOT kissing, NOT having sex.

I understood the rule about not having sex before marriage but I don't think I got it from my parents. Then later on I realized that not that many people seemed to  followed that rule. I surely didn't want to get pregnant and would not have risked that. But also it seemed to bother BPD mother if I wasn't "dating" someone and at one point she encouraged me to be in a situation where I felt the guy was not treating me right, but she encouraged me into it anyway.

There was a difference between dating in her generation and mine. Dating to her was a guy taking her out to the movies or dinner, the guy paid for all of it,  and that was it. She had lots of dates and dated lots of guys in college. In my generation it was more hanging out and egalitarian, less of it being all up to the guy. My mother seemed disappointed that I "didn't have lots of dates" but I tried to explain that things are different now and I didn't want to have all these "dates" like she did.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I also think just making a decision to slam the door on any budding attraction can go a long way to combatting this. When I realized how much I would talk with my H’s (married!) best male friend and that I was beginning to feel some attraction, I decided to stop talking to him one-on-one, and that completely solved the problem and the feelings completely fizzled out.

Yes, for me, what really helped is that I don't have "couple of friends" anymore. If a couple come here to have drink, then I give almost no attention to the man, except when all the attention would need to be on him as societal rule because he is telling a story. Otherwise, the men are together, and the women together. It is very old fashioned, but I know understand why it was this way.

My husband is a firm believer that actual friendship between a man and a woman who are both straigth is never only friendship, that there is always an underlying flirt. We had many discussions about my own friendships with men without any flirt and while he didn't give me any grief about it, he certainly didn't agree, and believed I was being naive. He told me himself that if I ever see him develop a real friendship with a woman, to call him back to me. He is military though, and as such, he is surrounded by a certain type of males. But basically, the way he says it, he has never been interested in being friend with a woman. For friends, he always looked to men, or homosexual women, naturally. With women, he doesn't see the point of only friendship, especially when he is in a relationship. He is not a womanizer, nor see women as objects either... He is actually very old fashioned, even in the way he dates. Just realized it. I guess, to him, I am supposed to be his only "female best friend", and him my only "male best friend", and we can find other men and women for friendships and to relate... I would have thought this to be a bit messed up and controlling, but that was before getting married and experimenting it... It makes it much easier to protect our marriage and make it work this way.

It also might be that what we all experience is very natural, and biological to a certain extent? But that for some, it goes all the way to clear dysfunction. I don't feel dysfunctional anymore. I cheated before my husband, that is true, I dated and looked for love in sexual encounters and I was dysfunctional to the extent that I could never commit entirely, but then I also chose relationships that set me up to feel disconnected. My husband was different. We got married four months in the relationship  and moved together 10 hours away. It could have been a real mess, but it also didn't leave any room for commitment issue and family dysfunction.

I always end up writing so much... It truly clears my mind, helps me understood who I am. WalkByFaith, I will certainly look into this book. I was raised outside of religion. My household was completely different from yours. I saw my mother having rough sexual encounters very often, at a very young age, and with a lot of different men. Some of those memories feel traumatizing. I also saw my father completely disregard his responsibility as a father and confide in me how it went in the bedroom with his girlfriends when I was only 15yo and still a virgin. I can now comprehend how deeply wrong this all was. My parents were both sexual and love addicts, clearly to the point of dysfunction. I am this morning thinking that it might also be that I simply have fleas. I can relate to the book in many ways, but do I truly carried their example to the point of dysfunction?

I don't feel like any of you did either... carry your parents behavior to the point of complete dysfunction. You are all much too self-aware.  

Also thank you Couscous and ZeroSumGames for the validation and support. I do think my daughter felt abandoned, and in hindsight, I should have put my son down form my arms, and first ask her for a big hug before asking her to grab her bag to come home. And next time, that is what I will do. Because in the afternoon, it is as if she regressed to baby, came in my arms for cradle hugs, cried a bunch, said she liked school, but then said she wanted to stay with me... There is a lot going on in her 4yo head and I know it isn't about me, but about the transition. I truly need to manage my trauma. This transition is hard on all of us right now. The end of a chapter I truly enjoyed, and will never be able to read again. I am looking forward to the next chapter, but there is still a lot of grief happening.

[Notwendy]

I agree with your H. It's not that friendship isn't possible but that often, an affair doesn't begin with two people meeting and jumping into bed. That can happen but I think most people if they are seeking an affair outside of marriage, they are seeking a connection that they may be missing at home. Now for some, it's the thrill of the forbidden physical but I think some are driven by loneliness and a need for connection.

A friendship could be the first step to that. Often we hear a story about a husband running off with his wife's best friend or vice versa or a workplace romance between people working closely together due to spending a lot of time together. How many Hollywood romances begin with actors on a film together?

Emotional connection, might be more of a temptation for people like us who grew up longing for a connection with our parents.

I have also found that this might not be the same way that a man who grew up with the traditional role models can easily do. Actually, I don't think one person should be saddled with the responsibility of meeting all of a person's emotional needs- they shouldn't be your only friend but still be your most significant relationship. However, I think we need to have strong boundaries around a marriage if we want to value it.

I don't have guy buddies. There are a few childhood friends out there. I want to maintain contact as these friendships were formed early on. But we don't live anywhere near each other and the few times we have had a school reunion, it's with families and spouses, not a one on one situation.

I work with men and women. We can talk about things besides work such as a movie, or music, or something like that but no personal venting or discussing relationships. We work in a group situation and there are always other people around.

If I really want an emotional vent, cry on shoulder, share session- female friends and siblings provide that if it's not something H is wanting to do.

I think we need to keep that line between workplace chatter and TMI- as I think most of us work or spend time in mixed company. Work does meet a social need but a superficial one.

[Couscous]

Last week my therapist told me about another book called The Emotional Incest Syndrome: https://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Incest-Syndrome-Parents-Rules/dp/055335275X?dplnkId=CE572E8B-AD12-41C4-8A5A-7E50C93F92FC

I found a copy on archive.org and am just a few pages in, and can already tell it is much more in depth than Silently Seduced, and almost two thirds (almost 200 pages) of it is devoted to recovery. It also addresses emotional incest with the same-sex parent.

It also explains how emotional incest causes intense sibling rivalry and I am now realizing that my siblings have been “persecuting” me because I was my dad’s “favorite”, and essentially they are displacing their anger towards him onto me for something that I am not responsible for. Incidentally, I have noticed a trend on this board of a fair number of people who have either gone NC or are on very bad terms with the “golden child”, yet remain in at least some contact with their parents, when what should be happening is that all of the adult children should unite against the parents and if anyone is to be cut off, it should be the parents and not the GC. Chosen/golden children were also victimized by their enmeshed parent and persecuting them for the situation is rather unjust.
 

[Riv3rW0lf]

It also explains how emotional incest causes intense sibling rivalry and I am now realizing that my siblings have been “persecuting” me because I was my dad’s “favorite”, and essentially they are displacing their anger towards him onto me for something that I am not responsible for. Incidentally, I have noticed a trend on this board of a fair number of people who have either gone NC or are on very bad terms with the “golden child”, yet remain in at least some contact with their parents, when what should be happening is that all of the adult children should unite against the parents and if anyone is to be cut off, it should be the parents and not the GC. Chosen/golden children were also victimized by their enmeshed parent and persecuting them for the situation is rather unjust.
 

I see your point... And I agree. Although I'd like to mitigate it a little bit... While we were all, as children, victims of our parents, we are not children anymore... Hence not victim anymore either. And so, I do have to hold my adult brothers accountable for their choices and actions now. Just as they now have a right to hold me accountable for mine.

It is an incredibly hurtful loss to realize that our parents illness and decision now force us to cut ties, or to lower contact with, in some cases, almost all of our family members...

My brother and I haven't talk in a while. I've noticed a competition between us, more and more, like he is divided between his love of me and his desire to protect his little sister, and his anger and jealousy of the love and pride my father gave me... I understand the dynamic, and in a sense, you are right, it isn't me he is angry at, but me that pays part of the price for my parents decision. while I can remain loving of him, I cannot control who he is and his decisions and if he ends up saying hurtful things and not respecting my clear boundaries : I will have to hold him accountable despite him having been a victim, same as me...

I understand why a lot of people on here are struggling with their sibblings, and why they decide to cut contact like I think you had to do... It is unjust that we have to lose our sibblings too... But in the end, our healing and preserving our mental health and sanity has to take priority.

[Couscous]

It is an incredibly hurtful loss to realize that our parents illness and decision now force us to cut ties, or to lower contact with, in some cases, almost all of our family members...

This is why I feel like we would have been better off had we been orphaned… At least we’d still have sibling relationships.

But I can see how the sibling rivalry wasn’t just an unfortunate side-effect of having had dysfunctional parents — but rather it was something that both parents actively encouraged. Both parents benefited greatly from the sibling rivalry — and they still do. I’m almost certain that they felt threatened by our sibling bonds and as such had no qualms whatsoever about undermining them. When my sons notice that I have served their sibling a slightly larger portion of a food they hate, they cry foul — so I do not believe for one second that our parents were oblivious of the impact that their favoritism was having.

All this to say, I think I will be taking a very long hiatus from BOTH of my parents…

[Riv3rW0lf]

This is why I feel like we would have been better off had we been orphaned… At least we’d still have sibling relationships.

Thinking of myself as an orphan has been a huge help in reparenting myself, to not feel like I need my parents and siblings validation. Somehow, I don't feel the loss of my siblings... I think there was so much anger and rage in our house that I never truly bonded with them. They are also much older than I am... So it's not like I have ever spent a lot of time with then. What tied us together was trauma. Now that I refuse to act traumatized, there is no interest left for a relationship with them... Its just not fun to be around them.

I needed to write down some thoughts I had this morning..they have nothing to do with BPD, but are more aligned with Silently Seduced and covert incest. Now that I am aware of my own relationship with my father, I really took steps to put my husband first. And it worked beautifully for our relationship and our own family dynamic.

This morning, this happened though that made me realize something about my husband, which I always kinda knew... His mother came to have breakfast with us, by herself, because his father is away for two weeks to help his own brother in another province. So we invited her for brunch.

And they were talking together and I heard my husband offer her to drive her to another city to help her out... He offered her, out of the blue, without asking me first, to drive her two hours, and to come back, resulting in a four hours drive, without even asking me first if we have something scheduled with the children. This is SO out of character... She just wanted him to lift her to the bus station, and he told her he could drive her all the way there??

And it hit me : his father is not there.

He was raised with a father that would leave a two weeks, come back for one, and his mother basically raised him alone two thirds of the time. She was also sick for a while. And hearing them this morning, and the way he acted and spoke to her... I felt, for the first time ever in this relationship, like the other woman. Gave me flashbacks of the other boyfriend I mentioned last post.

It was the first time I ever saw them together without his father there...

I am creeped out.

His mother left to go to the bathroom and I told my husband :you know, I would appreciate you checking in with me before promising to lift your mother to "the other city".

And he stonewalled me ! Like it was normal because it was his mother ! If I had done anything like that for my father, he would have freaked out !

His mother respects me though, and she mostly talked with me, the dynamic subsided... But only because she was respectful of my presence...I can't believe my husband acted this way though...

Explains why we match...he has intermittent mommy issues. When his father is not there, the tension appears, he wants to be his mother's man, savior...husband. And when his father is there, it resorbs, explaining why I never picked up on it.

I am... Creeped out, by him. By his capacity of shutting me out like this so easily. But then, I did the same thing to him, didn't I? Before I was conscious...How do I bring it up to him now though...

Honestly I am disgusted by what I picked up on this morning, completely disgusted...

I also feel abandoned and like I wanna run away far from him, like I just lost trust. And I know this is not a normal reaction, that I am seeing all this bigger than it is... That we might work it out together over time.. but I hate this. He doesn't know. I think part of him knows though, which is why he got scared when I asked him to read Silently Seduced. He was on guard, doesn't want to hear about it. I think I always knew too, but this morning, feeling like the other woman like that... Really hurt.

[Couscous]

Courage Riverwolf! I can so empathize with how you are probably feeling right now. In times like these what helps me is to use the 123 Process, and to think of all the ways my husband is different from my mother. Yes, your H got sucked into his old role but you made it clear that you will not tolerate it, and now your H can learn from this. It’s an opportunity for growth for him as well as for your relationship. I know it’s hard, but try not to take it too personally or panic too much just yet. After he reads Silently Seduced and he has had a few days to absorb the information you could talk about it with him. In the meantime please do whatever you need to to take care of yourself. 

Here’s a video about the 123 process that I think you might find very useful: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tuQPZndGJv0

[Notwendy]

Wow Riverwolf- those "match points" can be hard to see but they are opportunities.

My H would do these kinds of things too. He'd be too busy to clear his schedule for me but if his parents came down, he'd jump through hoops for them. If I said something he'd deny it or say something mean back. Shades of mother dearest. I was listening to a video that popped up in my FB thread ( funny these coincidences-   ) where a woman who has BPD and a lot of recovery was talking about her experiences. She said things like " people with BPD can do ____X___ but so can people with CPTSD and people raised in a insecure environment. ( I recognized a couple things I have done and so I believe her ) So I do think there are overlapping behaviors, a spectrum, and full blown BPD. So our partners, if they are raised with some level of "less than nurturing" could take on some of these behaviors and matched with our own experiences with a BPD parent create dysfunction.

I don't think my H intentionally put other people's priorities before mine. I don't think your H intentionally meant to not consider you when he offered to drive his mother. The tendency for my H to "jump into people pleasing " with his parents ( and sometimes others) is an automatic response. Have you ever found yourself in the middle of doing something and thought- wow- look at what I am doing. For instance, my H might say " is there anything in the fridge for lunch " and next thing I am in the middle of cutting his sandwich in half and thinking "why isn't he making his own sandwich?" because it has been automatic to jump into caretaking role.

I am not sure that what your H did is emotionally incestual in the disordered sense but it may be the "normal" in his family to help your mother since his father wasn't around much. I don't think she's depending on him for her emotional needs. But having an absent father means he didn't have a consistent role model for how to be a husband either. My father in law had a difficult childhood and you can see how it impacted his ability to emotionally connect with his family even though he was present and provided for him. I see the need to "please parents" on the part of the children as wanting some kind of affirmation or attention from them as his MIL was probably very busy and Dad was not emotionally available.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Couscous, thank you for the video. I think I was able to manage my own trigger, but my husband is still not back from his. The video is helpful... Maybe I need to look at it from his perspective from when he was a child. But I'm not sure... I do feel I was right though, that because we have two young children, that it is just common courtesy to let me know that he would like to do this (drive his mother four hours away). He says he shouldn't have to ask my permission to do things, but it's not permission, it's courtesy, it's consideration, because when he leaves, I have to manage two young children, and one of them has a dancing class, might have something else going on... So I don't know what it is that triggered him like that. I don't feel I was too angry either. I just asked told him: "I think you could have checked with me first", and I even waited for his mother to leave...

Later on, I confronted him again on what happened, and he was out of himself. And I really had to step up more than I'd like. I kept repeating him: "I am not telling you to be perfect, I am just trying to express how it hurts, and how out of character it was. I'd like you to see it. You and I are a team, I don't want to control you, I want us to be considerate of each other." He kept repeating he didn't want to be scolded in front of his mother (which I didn't), that he saw an opportunity to spend time alone with her and wanted to take it (which I don't get, because this never happens when his father is around)... So I do feel there is something there...

I am not sure how I will approach this. He went for a walk with our son, and came back expecting me to regret what I had said? I told him I didn't, but would like to reset and understand, and he stonewalled me.

Boy, I have no idea how to go about that one right now...

Notwendy, I also do that... All. The. Time. He says : this is dirty, and next thing I know I am cleaning it up... And I sometimes realize it too, and that I don't really want to do it... But I also don't want him criticizing again, and I do try to keep him happy..

He is mostly safe, but he is easily frustrated... He told me often he knows he is egoist and lazy, and is trying to fight it. He says he was always like that... I have a hard time believing it.

The more I look at him, the more I think his father put him down... He was younger and was raised with his mother illness, he saw his mother alone a lot, abandoned by his father, and I think he tried to be there for her. And she would let him. And when his father came back, he would be put down... Which is likely why he reacted to strongly ? Maybe I put myself between his mother and him like his father would? I don't know...

And you are right Notwendy, it doesn't mean it is emotional incest either. Something though, in his father leaving, triggered something... He is always fine with his mother visiting alone, he goes to see her, wants us to invite her... But when his father is there, he doesn't want to visit, he doesn't want me to invite them...

I was triggered by his reaction. But I know I was fair in my request...

Now he is emotionally shut down to me... So yes, definitely the BPD trait my mother had too...

And to protect my children, I have to work through it and keep fighting to join him again, but I mean... I do feel, deeply, that my request was fair...

Thank you guys though, helps to know I am not alone !

I know a board we need : love relationships of adult children of a BPD parent...

[Notwendy]

love relationships of adult children of a BPD parent

That's there in some of the posts on the relationship section. I think people post about the relationships that bother them the most but it's all connected and on a spectrum. So it may be that we chose someone who isn't fully BPD but with whom we may replicate some of the patterns we experienced/observed in our families of origin. The  dynamics in our families influence who we are attracted to and who is attracted to us.

I've posted on there from time to time but also feel that since my situation has been relatively milder- the posters are in need of advice for more serious situations. But that doesn't mean it's been easy. One of the mysteries in the early years of my marriage was how could I have married someone different from my mother and yet some of the patterns I observed in my parents seemed similar to issues we had and it was a rough time for a while there. It's not as if there aren't quirks along the way now but a key step was for me to work on co-dependency.

If we had a conflict, my H would blame me and I'd assume it was true. His family appeared "normal" so I must be the one who was the cause of the problem as my upbringing was not. Sound familiar? BPD mother blamed me for the issues in our family and I didn't know any different. So I began to read books on marriage and relationships to see if I could "fix" the issues and this is where I came across the idea that we "match" our partners in some ways. Yet how could his seemingly "normal" family be any match with mine? They seemed like total opposites.

It was a marriage counselor who brought up the idea that the opposite behavior of dysfunction can be dysfunction. We want to aim for middle in our behaviors. One can be too controlled, too strong boundaries and there was a match point. My BPD mother's behavior is out of control. H's family was very controlled. My father was co-dependent and so was H's mother. FIL was physically present, emotionally distant and critical. H's golden child role was how he coped. Neither of us had role models for how to manage disagreements. When we grow up in dysfunction, we don't know what "normal" is. I just knew the family dynamics in my family were not normal.

This influence on who we match with is a reason why family dysfunction can become intergenerational. I didn't want to role model the kind of behaviors my mother has, but all the while I was role modeling co-dependency - as I had assumed my father was the "normal" one. My motivation for working on this was for myself and also to role model something better for my kids.

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

I've posted on there from time to time but also feel that since my situation has been relatively milder- the posters are in need of advice for more serious situations. But that doesn't mean it's been easy.

I think this is why I also don't post there.

It helps to know I am not the only one struggling. I vowed to commit myself fully to my husband, and it is interesting to see all my mechanisms activated when there is a "match point" like you said (I like this phrasing). How easily I feel swayed and just want to run away.

It came to a resolution yesterday evening. I found the loving space to listen to him, to why he got so angry. He says it was because of the timing, yet, because we were both calm, he was also able to see that I did wait and didn't confront him in front of his mother.

Then he said it is because I accused him of not caring for us... Then he realized, I had never said that, that my point had always been that this was out of character, that it was the first time he did something like that. That I needed to let him know, so that it wouldn't repeat, because it hurt.

So then he said: I'd rather you tell me I hurt you, instead of analyzing my behavior from a psychological standpoint... I agreed. I was out of place.

I still believe there is something going on there. He feels compelled to take care of his mother when his father is absent. And I do think he discarded us to go above and beyond for her in an effort to show he could be a good son like his brother, despite her not asking him anything. It is not enmeshment though... I think it is the effort of a scapegoat to show he can be a good son like his golden child brother.

What I find interesting is that : he is always happy to see his mother alone, or to invite her by herself. He never wants to help his parents, but will go above and beyond to help his mother. He doesn't want to ask help from his father, will be pissed if I invite them both to diner, but just his mother, he is ok with that and even looks forward to it... This is why I thought about silently seduced... But then, it is clear to me that his mother also "prefers" his brother... She only has good things to say about his brother, while she will call me husband "her rebel", the one who didn't listen..

Honestly, I am trying to figure it out to better handle those kind of match points.

I guess, for now, we came to an understanding. He finally said he was sorry, that he didn't want to hurt me.

I know I can work with him, but goodness, when he gets angry, he shuts down completely, for very long periods of time. And then, he doesn't want to talk about it... Which for me doesn't make sense. Communication is key, always. And he knows that... It's like he assumes I will not see him either, that the communication will be one way... But it never is, and never was. I saw him change as we were speaking... He was seeing me as a controlling wife for a minute there, then he realized it wasn't the case... Finally found each other again. But this is just bound to happen again and again if he doesn't start looking inside of him... which he told me clearly he doesn't see the point in doing.

I can work with him, but I'd like him to do his own work too.

[Notwendy]

I can work with him, but I'd like him to do his own work too.

That may not happen, and depending on his own coping mechanisms, he may not feel any need to do this.

I was the one who read piles of books on marriage, went to therapy by myself, tried to get H go go with me ( unsuccessfully ). As far as he was concerned, it was all my issues and if I'd just focus on the good, there'd be no problem. His most aggravating response to my bringing anything up was "well it's not all bad is it?" As if a situation had to be completely awful to feel it wasn't working well. Well no, he wasn't physically abusing me, we weren't starving, but he was not being kind to me, and co-dependent me was just trying harder to please him and enabling the behavior.

Eventually, I emotionally disengaged. I didn't make plans to leave the marriage. The kids were little and he wasn't involved much anyway. It was easy to just be me and the kids and that's how I decided to see it. Divorce would have split up the kids in two homes and I didn't want to do that. It wasn't that he was mistreating me as basically wasn't emotionally available, so I disengaged. I didn't know about the push pull dynamics then, and it wasn't on purpose but he began being super nice to me again, and it worked for a while but then I could see it wasn't working. Then around the time my Dad passed away, I was done with drama. I think he could sense that and agreed to marriage counseling.

So I went expecting the MC to call him out on his behavior and work on his part of the issues. She was smarter than that. She knew that if she did, he'd walk out. She then put the label on me- co-dependent. I was angry. How could I be the only one with the problem? It wasn't fair. But she got me into co-dependency work - but not for the marriage- for me.

I am the beneficiary of the work and I am grateful for it. As I learned better emotional regulation skills and boundaries, my H's part in the dynamics decreased. Did he ever work on his own stuff? Not really. I think it would be good for him- good for anyone really- but he has to decide that. We both learned better emotional regulation skills and better communication. Neither of us knew how to do that. In my home, BPD mother was raging and dissociating. In his home, people didn't speak about conflict- they just acted as if all was OK, so neither of us learned how to do that well.

One thing I did learn was to stay on my side of the fence- other people's issues are not my business.

I can work with him, but I'd like him to do his own work too.

No, you don't work with him. One can not do someone else's emotional work and vice versa. You can work with you.  his issues are his to manage. Doing this work is an investment in you and can impact how you relate to everyone, not just the marriage, and the skills you gain become yours.

[Riv3rW0lf]

No, you don't work with him. One can not do someone else's emotional work and vice versa. You can work with you.  his issues are his to manage. Doing this work is an investment in you and can impact how you relate to everyone, not just the marriage, and the skills you gain become yours.

I agree with you. I meant it more as a : "I am not scared of him." His anger tantrums are a soft breeze compared to what I've been through, so he doesn't scare me, and I don't really tiptoe around him. That's what I meant by "I can work with him." As a team. To keep going.

In the end, when we sit down calmly, when I approach him with love, as his teammate, he does listen, and he does apologize. He just has a really hard time doing it on the moment. His initial reaction is to get angry at me, and shut me down. If I hold, even calmly, he gets angry and leaves. He says it is how I say things, but there is no right way to say anything. I tried.

It's like he needs to go through this cycle... And if I don't reach out from a place of love later on, the fight will go on and on forever. I can't really remember him being the one breaking the silence between us.

But in the end, he will always take responsibility for his part, he will acknowledge how he was hurtful and he will apologize. Maybe he doesn't need therapy... Overall, he does seem to be balanced, and maybe we balance each other out too...

Now that your children are grown, has the dynamic changed between your husband and you?

[Notwendy]

Now that your children are grown, has the dynamic changed between your husband and you?

It's better in ways but not something I expected. I think my expectations of relationships in general may have been skewed by how I was raised. I think I had a sort of fantasy about a good relationship based on TV, or what I thought it would be, not having had an example of it.

I have better emotional communication skills and I think I imagined heart to heart talks and doing a lot of things together but we have different styles of boundaries. I think mine were too squishy- not well defined. BPD mother didn't respect boundaries and so we didn't know how do that. In H's family, they had boundaries of steel. Deep conversations were non existent. There is an emotional connection but their style of speech doesn't go too deep. I realized that my H needed space and the more I needed closeness it just frustrated him. It's not that he's doing anything wrong, he is present and good to us, but he needs his emotional space and he's a lot more comfortable when he has it.

With the kids grown, I have more time to do my own thing too- went back to work full time. We have some mutual interests but separate ones too. I used to worry about us "growing apart" but I can't force togetherness. I think we understand each other better.

I think I had to let go of my old ideas about "love" because- I think "love" was confused with a lot of other feelings- fear, people pleasing, enmeshment and also the idea of what is marriage. I think it should be a good thing overall, but it's not something designed to make us feel comfortable all the time. I heard it described as a "crucible" and one reason we match with someone with whom we may play out our FOO issues is to give us the opportunity to work through them. I think it's been a good match in this sense as it's been a secure attachment for both of us.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I have better emotional communication skills and I think I imagined heart to heart talks and doing a lot of things together but we have different styles of boundaries. I think mine were too squishy- not well defined. BPD mother didn't respect boundaries and so we didn't know how do that. In H's family, they had boundaries of steel. Deep conversations were non existent. There is an emotional connection but their style of speech doesn't go too deep. I realized that my H needed space and the more I needed closeness it just frustrated him. It's not that he's doing anything wrong, he is present and good to us, but he needs his emotional space and he's a lot more comfortable when he has it.

It sounds like you are married to my husband...

I think I will have to let go too of any real emotional closeness with him. It is a bit sad, no?

Getting married before I figured out my trauma... Had children. Now I am trapped, in a way. Because I have to do the good things for my children. Because life isn't about me right now, they are too young.

And I'm stuck with an emotionally immature man, with BPD traits and highly egocentrist... At least he knows this second part and is working on it to do well by us. He loves his children... In the end, maybe that's enough.

I guess things will get easier when my children are grown, when I can find some of my own freedom back too.

I wonder if some people are able to get it... The emotional closeness with their partner.

So far, I cannot find anyone around me who truly seem to have it. They are all together apart? Maybe that's part of the fun... Forcing us toward self-growth..

Do you love him?

I sometimes wonder if I ever truly loved my husband.. he felt familiar to me when I met him. But I don't think I was ever in love with him. I kinda knew I could make it work somehow. But I didn't know who I was back then. Now I have a better idea.

Take the goods, accept the bads and keep going I guess...

[Turkish]

I sometimes wonder if I ever truly loved my husband.. he felt familiar to me when I met him. But I don't think I was ever in love with him.

A group of us on the Detaching/Leaving board discussed this very subject some years ago. There were a few of us there...

[Notwendy]

He may grow emotionally- as you will too. I felt like you did when the kids were little. I admit, at that point my decisions were about what was best for them. He's been a good father to them. That is important to me- that whatever issues either of us may have- we are good to them.

Part of my own emotional growth was distinguishing between wanting closeness and perhaps finding the "love" I imagined was out there when I was growing up. I question my own ideas of "love" as love growing up in my family was confusing. What is love anyway?

From my reading, it's a verb, not a feeling. That feeling of "in love" may be the initial high of a new relationship. It doesn't last - even for couples who "felt it". So the fact that you didn't feel that "in love" feeling may not be an issue over time in your marriage. Love, the verb, is different.

I think I had all my ideas of what I wanted in marriage but I had no role model for it- as if mine would be so completely different from what I saw with my parents. But marriage between any two people can be messy at times. Sometimes it doesn't work but if the main values are there- and actions on them- commitment to family, to each other- I think both can work at it.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Turkish, do you remember the title of the post? I'm not very proficient with the search engine of the website.

I think I had all my ideas of what I wanted in marriage but I had no role model for it- as if mine would be so completely different from what I saw with my parents. But marriage between any two people can be messy at times. Sometimes it doesn't work but if the main values are there- and actions on them- commitment to family, to each other- I think both can work at it.

Thank you for this Notwendy.

I think we are both working at it. And everyone has bad days. I told myself often that I didn't need the butterflies, as long as there was communication and a will to grow.

I am starting to see a pattern in our relationship, but it is still very blurry. Understanding it would help me find what I need to do on my end. It is hard to work on codependancy with young children. It doesn't feel right using them as leverage. In the end, one of us needs to be there emotionnally and physically for them, and if it's not him, then it needs to be me. And since he doesn't seem to be able to be there for them more than he currently is, then it falls on me. As long as the children are ok, it's truly all that matters.

But I am trying to keep him happy, to prevent any backlash on them too. When he is frustrated, it is one thing. But when he truly gets angry is another. But then, I am the one that seems to be setting him off whenever I ask that he considers me. This seems to be his main struggle.

Like... He feels stuck with his family, crawling under the weight of the responsibilities. To him, he is ready considering us, because he is not out drinking, or playing video games all day long. So whenever he does not treat us as a team (those moments are when I started speaking up), like taking the car without letting me know (I always let him know, in case he needs it), promising his mother he will drive her to another city without checking in with me, etc., And I mention it, he gets awfully angry.

I think deep within, he knows he messed up, and the shame is too much to bear. So he turns it around, saying I am the one who is too difficult, who asks too much. I'm sure it happens in all relationships. But it's the anger that is the real issue, and his reactivity. He is highly reactive and while I am not scared of him, it's true that I don't like having to say things, because I don't want the fight that will come with it. And there is never any apology. It's like nothing happened.

Then he feels bad, and for a few days, he goes above and beyond to be nicer to us, will offer me more "time off". It's not that he is looking for emotional reconnection, it's that he is looking for forgiveness, like a dog with the tail between his legs. But most times, I already forgave, and I wouldn't mind things continuing like they were. I am not angry at him, yet he projects so much anger on me. And I feel this is from his childhood, more than it is about me. A pattern he learned with his parents. Or maybe he is reacting to my disappointment.

He can be my best team mate, but sometimes I do get the Jekyll and Hide sentiment. I know he is not BPD, he can make amends, he doesn't blame be all the time, he can overall self-soothe. But he is incredibly reactive, angry and it doesn't take much to set him off. So for me, this is my mother.  

He says it is because he is a man, because of testosterone... Doesn't sound quite right to me though. But you are right that in the end, I cannot fix him. So I will have to work around his mild empathy impairment, cut him some slack, and take care of myself. Take whatever I can get right now as help, and ensure the children are fine. I will have more time later. More freedom.

And I do think I will have to rethink our couple goals. And that emotional closeness, the way I envisioned it as a little girl, will simply never happen. That we can have something else instead. A rational understanding, a partnership. All in all, it's not so bad.it gets lonely sometimes, but I can self-soothe loneliness. And I also do better alone anyway.

[Notwendy]

Your H sounds a lot like mine when the kids were younger.

In the Karpman triangle - it's dysfunctional when adults take victim perspective and they aren't true victims. Children can be true victims- they don't have a choice, they are completely dependent on their parents. Being co-dependent is assuming responsibility for another adult who is capable and can make choices. Caretaking children isn't being co-dependent and if the other parent doesn't have the emotional capacity to do it, your defaulting to doing it is for them, not him.

I did that as well. It was better for me to be the main caregiver for them. During this time I also had a lot of resentment as it impacted my career goals.

Consider your H's role model ( father ). My FIL had his own emotional trauma and also trauma from being in the military during WW2. My father did too. I think a generation of fathers and grandfathers experienced war trauma. He role modeled these things: provider for the family and protector of the family. That was about it. He was loyal. He didn't show emotions but providing for the family was how he showed he cared. I don't think he ever did any housework. MIL did all that. My H cognitively knew better- he married a woman who also had a career- but emotionally, he reacted like his father if I asked him to do anything he saw as his mother's role. Anger seems to be the only allowable "manly" emotion growing up and his father could get angry at times.

By contrast, I am a team player, at work, and at home as much as it could be possible.

I did "fall in love". It was H who seemed to fall out of it- resent the marriage, resent the responsibilities and the emotional neglect was evident. On my part, I wore out emotionally and eventually just didn't care. If he wanted to walk out the door and not return, I don't think I'd have cared ( except for the kids) and at times, I wish he'd have left rather than stay and treat me like that. Was this the push pull? I don't know as I didn't do it for that reason but I think he sensed something and decided he wanted the marriage and that made the work possible.

Empty nest was a change. The idea of "staying for the kids" doesn't apply as much. I concede he's made a lot of effort to make things better. I think I actually had to stop the co-dependent behaviors for this to happen. That's the risk though- sometimes the other person may leave if things change, or perhaps - like it is with my BPD mother- without the drama - there's less emotions in the relationship.  There is love there. That song from Fiddler on the Roof where the daughters are wanting to marry for love rather than an arranged marriage and a puzzled Tevia asks his wife if she loves him and "if that's not love what is" - it's not the butterflies one has when meeting someone you are attracted to but something more stable.

In fact, for me, I think the butterflies might be misleading as they are influenced by our FOO. Butterflies might lead someone into trouble.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Consider your H's role model ( father ). My FIL had his own emotional trauma and also trauma from being in the military during WW2. My father did too. I think a generation of fathers and grandfathers experienced war trauma. He role modeled these things: provider for the family and protector of the family. That was about it. He was loyal. He didn't show emotions but providing for the family was how he showed he cared. I don't think he ever did any housework. MIL did all that. My H cognitively knew better- he married a woman who also had a career- but emotionally, he reacted like his father if I asked him to do anything he saw as his mother's role. Anger seems to be the only allowable "manly" emotion growing up and his father could get angry at times.

Based on many discussions I've had with MIL and H, H's grandmother and grandfather are likely narcissistic. H told me once that there is a lot of pressure in his family to not shame them, to become something, to achieve things. That those who fail to do so, get scapegoated. That he was on his way to be a problem for his family when he decided he didn't want to go to university. He ended up joining the army in an effort to leave altogether... Leave the region and leave the family system.

His grandmother abused his mother, and I have seen FIL becomes entirely different when in the presence of his mother and father. He goes from a highly talkative man, a proud man, to completely silent and shut down. He is the main caregiver of his aging parents right now, and he cannot stand up to his mother at all.

So my understanding is that FIL and MIL are both a bit codependent. MIL told me recently she could never talked to her own MIL the way I do. That her MIL would come and leave with her son without telling her, and bring him back only a week later. Would give him a crazy amount of sugar, and that she could never bring herself to stand up to her, because she feared the backlash. So... I assume the grandparents are very narcissistic.

The grandfather was known by the women around to be "dirty". He would go around and grab the women's bottom. Did it to me on my wedding day actually. FIL tried a few things like that with me too, but I told H who wrote an email that I never saw. And it completely stopped. Now FIL is very respectful of my bubble. H says he learned about his grandfather's behaviors when he was a teenager, from another woman, and he felt such shame... That's when he decided to be a gentleman. And he really is. Dating him was amazing... Nice dates, he would ask me to put beautiful dresses, bring me to the best restaurant in town, and wouldn't even ask for a kiss in exchange. He was always respectful and would wait for me to come to him. I felt I could take my time with him, and I did. He was safe and protective. He didn't learned that from his father though, he learned it in reaction to what he heard about his grandfather.

FIL left a lot for work. My understanding is that when he came home, MIL would relax while FIL took charge of the house.H told me once he always felt FIL was unahppy with his family... Went as far as saying :" have you seen my mother? She cannot hold a discussion, she is boring, she doesn't even try to keep her man interested and she doesn't even cook well." All this to say .. I think he blame his father for abandoning him, and he also blame his mother for not trying harder, for not being more?

His brother was the perfect son. MIL often tells me how perfect her life was when she only had him. Often she would tell me how H was harder, harsher. That it was too much for her. From what I got, MIL became sick when H reached 10yo, and FIL had trouble at work, got depressed. H fell into the cracks, but he says he used it to do whatever he wanted. Started acting out, lying, selling drugs, hacking people, got in trouble with law enforcement for stealing. His parents couldn't handle him. MIL kept doing everything for him when FIL wasn't home, and FIL would blame him and scapegoat him when he came back.

When H told them he wanted to have his business, become an electrician (FIL work), FIL screamed at him. It got pretty bad... H joined the army shortly after. He says he felt completely lost.

He often says his father didn't show him how to be a father, but then he says his father was always there when he needed him. And MIL says FIL took care of his sons when he was home... So my best guess is : FIL had a golden child and a scapegoat... H would have been his father's scapegoat.

The tension between them is still palpable. And I do find H dysregulates more when FIL is scheduled to visit.

I think this is partly why he tries to be around us a lot. But he will sometimes lose control and get angry, likely because this is what his father might have done to him, as his scapegoat... I don't know.

Like you, H chose me to compensate for his mother's lack of conversation. I had a degree in science, I had dreams, I had a career, an interest in physics, weather, politics...

I think most of his issues really stem from his relationship with his father. But he said he solved it already when he left. From my standpoint though : he internalized his father's shame. He blames himself, he says he was always an egoist who didn't care for his family... But I see how part of him really is looking out for us. He really means well... It seems to me he convinced himself he was lazy and narcissistic, based on what his father told him growing up. He will often call himself an idiot when he messes up something, and he gets frustrated and angry at himself. Breaks my heart to see him this way. And no amount of love seem to help.

He projects his father's criticism and anger on me. I was talking with my daughter earlier, told her to sit down to eat and I heard him say ; what have I done again? And I answered : what? I wasn't speaking to you. He did that twice this morning. Like... Because the last fight we had really escalated to crazyness. He scared me that time. Yesterday I was in shock, couldn't look at him, needed to calm myself. Asked for space. This morning was better, we are talking again. But there was no real discussion about what happened between us. And so it seems to me that he is blaming himself, and projecting blame and anger on me.. while I am just trying to understand what happened.

I don't think he realizes the depth of his childhood scars.

In fact, for me, I think the butterflies might be misleading as they are influenced by our FOO. Butterflies might lead someone into trouble.

I agree... The guys who gave me butterflies were ... Very immature. It would have likely been more than a mild empathy impairment. One of them in particular was a high functioning alcoholic who treated me like garbage. Met my husband shortly after my last fall out with him. Got lucky I guess... Didn't expect to get married, but I did. Maybe partly in reaction to the other guy... In the end, might have saved me.

It helped to write all that. It gets hard to see my husband for who he is after the kind of fight we had. But I have to... Even though he might never be able to do the same for me... He really tries.

[Notwendy]

Like you, H chose me to compensate for his mother's lack of conversation. I had a degree in science, I had dreams, I had a career, an interest in physics, weather, politics...

I think most of his issues really stem from his relationship with his father.  From my standpoint though : he internalized his father's shame.

He projects his father's criticism and anger on me.



Very similar to my situation. Think about though, why did you choose your H? For me, it was the impression of stability. His family looked like a Norman Rockwell painting, until one looks under the rug too closely. Their issues were milder than with my mother, but still there, but covert. Maybe they weren't raging and screaming but instead, pretending all was well while being passive aggressive. I perceive FIL as leaning more towards the spectrum than narcissistic, and being verbally cruel when he was angry- possibly not being socially aware of it enough to even know the impact of his words. (vs BPD mother who knows what she is saying and intends it). However, to a child, the words have a similar impact.

I don't think he realizes the depth of his childhood scars.

Yes, H will speak of his childhood as being normal and then when he says some of the things his father said to him, I'm horrified. It was verbal abuse but my H doesn't recognize it and I think it's because he probably later sensed that his father wasn't aware of how his words impacted the family. FIL has other traits of being on the spectrum- has a strict routine and focused interests, is introverted. He's actually a kind hearted man but a young child doesn't understand that and so H was very shamed if he made any kind of mistake.

I have often felt that if I even make a suggestion to H, he hears his father instead. His reactions to even a suggestion are exaggerated. Then, matched with my fear of anyone being angry- emotionally that was hard to handle.

I think one of my strong traits is being sensitive to someone else's distress but in this situation, I had to become less reactive to my H's reactions. I noticed that his family members are- they sometimes seem to be verbally harsh with each other, then it rolls of their backs. In my home, any slight or perceived mistake would be the crime of the century to BPD mother. So here's a match point- sensitive to criticism and shamed for being who we are, as nobody is perfect. And in other generations too. I don't know for certain what happened to FIL. I know his FOO was disordered but not exactly what.

It's interesting to look at who gave us the butterflies - and I did have them for my H. I didn't date a lot of people before that but there were some recurring themes. All of them were unavailable- not ready for a commitment -but I think it was also the age- we were so young and not ready to settle down yet. There were two guys (not at the same time- relationships were several years apart) - lots of butterflies- and both of them had families where the parents were divorced- one had an alcoholic father. I think we'd have played out issues between us had these relationships gone further, and it was probably our young ages were the reason they didn't at the time. My behavior with them was very co-dependent. I was so afraid I'd mess up, or they wouldn't like me. It's obvious to me now how co-dependent I was but I didn't know any other way at the time and this influenced who was attracted to me and vice versa. It's interesting to see the similarities between the people we are/were attracted to.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Think about though, why did you choose your H? For me, it was the impression of stability. His family looked like a Norman Rockwell painting, until one looks under the rug too closely. Their issues were milder than with my mother, but still there, but covert. Maybe they weren't raging and screaming but instead, pretending all was well while being passive aggressive.

They are more covert in his family as well. And they do have a more stable look. There are passive aggressive, and I often pick up on how FIL disregards H's views and achievements. But then, it's like H is also not himself in front of his father...

Like you, we match in our strong discomfort of criticism. I worked a lot on myself though, am softer with myself than I was, and most days, I keep my criticism of him for myself. I worked a lot on myself, to accept he doesn't do things like me and to accept it. And then, when he criticizes me, I often tell him right away to let me be that I am doing enough and that if he isn't happy he can simply do it himself. It has decrease the amount of criticism between is tremendously...

Another match point is how we both weren't seen for who we were, growing up. We were both neglected, and left to wander life by ourselves. My H though, rebelled, while I passively zoned out. He got in trouble with the law, while I contemplated suicide in my basement. Like two faces of the same piece, I think I admire how he rebelled, how he acted out.. And I think part of him might admire how I seem in control, how calm I appear, despite the storm raging inside, how I was still able to finish high school and get myself to university despite the rage. His rage was stirring him toward the wrong crowds, until he decided to get in the army, which gave him the discipline he says he lacked.

Our main emotion is the same... With the enneagream, they talk about shame/fear/anger. We are both mainly angry, and we both react to anger. Like you, I had and still have to lower my reactivity to his anger.

FIL has other traits of being on the spectrum- has a strict routine and focused interests, is introverted. He's actually a kind hearted man but a young child doesn't understand that and so H was very shamed if he made any kind of mistake.

Here, FIL has narcissistic traits. And H's brother was the perfect son..calm, dependable, patient...while H was independant, a rebel... He meant well, he had a good heart, but somehow his brother is always better... Still today. Pains me, and like you, I find myself horrified to always hear about H's brother everytime I talk about my H and his achievements. They will even tell me about how his brother did this and that... I can't imagine how it was growing up like that... Always in his brothers shadow...

It's interesting to look at who gave us the butterflies - and I did have them for my H. I didn't date a lot of people before that but there were some recurring themes. All of them were unavailable- not ready for a commitment -but I think it was also the age- we were so young and not ready to settle down yet. There were two guys (not at the same time- relationships were several years apart) - lots of butterflies- and both of them had families where the parents were divorced- one had an alcoholic father. I think we'd have played out issues between us had these relationships gone further, and it was probably our young ages were the reason they didn't at the time. My behavior with them was very co-dependent. I was so afraid I'd mess up, or they wouldn't like me. It's obvious to me now how co-dependent I was but I didn't know any other way at the time and this influenced who was attracted to me and vice versa. It's interesting to see the similarities between the people we are/were attracted to.

I never was able to get in a relationship with a guy that gave me butterflies... I was promiscuous with men I didn't like. When I was really interested, with passion and infatuation, I wouldn't even try to get them.

One of them I ended up "dating" but we weren't in the same city. He ended up coming knocking at 3am in the morning, drunk... Wasn't exactly fun. He left the next day to meet his friends. My heart was completely broken. Met H shortly after.

I did talk to this other guy again... I finally told him he broke my heart. Treated me like garbage, like any other girl. He was deeply surprised, hadn't even realized I was in love with him...he said he had always thought we'd end up together, and fell off his chair when I got married shortly after that night. H saved me from entering a relationship with a guy I now believe was NPD.

Sometimes I think the nature of my trauma, both from BPD mother and self-centered father cancelled each other out. I could never bring myself to try and seduce the men I really liked, and would give myself easily to those I didn't like. I ended up hurting them, of course, I was dissatisfied...but they were all nice with me, trying to help, to please me... I would eat them alive. I had so much trauma to deal with, I was barely conscious.

... I think my H stabilized me with his anger, with his temper. And part of me knew he wouldn't take any of my sh*t like the other guys I had dated. I didn't have butterflies, but I also wasn't repulsed my him.. he is a beautiful man, and I didn't date a lot of those. I now know I was pretty, even as a teenager, always was a beautiful woman ...get I didn't eat, was so deeply uncomfortable in my skin, I could never even tried to get the men I wanted. How could I? I walked looking at the floor.

Last time I went to a restaurant with H, he looked at me walking and he said : "hey ...look up. own yourself." I still default to this feeling when I am wearing good clothes, like I don't deserve to feel pretty somehow.

H has been good for me this way... In all truth, he really did push me forward.

I wasn't codependant...I would have been codependant with the men I truly wanted. But my shame, the sexual abuse I endured, my father's narcissism... They prevented me from even trying to be with them... So I ended up the abuser of good men. This is still something I am deeply ashamed of. But one of them told me I did open his eyes on a few things, helped him in the long run...

I think... When driving the the automatic pilot, the role we take on a relationship will change a lot depending on the nature of the person we are with. Those I didn't like, I had strong BPD traits. Those I liked, I would have been more codependant. I certainly was with the guy I mentioned.

H was the exception. He opened my eyes. Took me away from FOO. Wouldn't let me blame him, would not accept my shame. He was physically attractive (still is), smart, funny.. And his temper is probably what made the relationship work.

Now his temper is what set me on edge. Funny how things can turn around over time, when we finally open our eyes to who we are, to our story.

[Notwendy]

I would only have interest if I felt "butterflies" and it wasn't very often. I didn't have any drama with the first guy I mentioned- late high school. We were too young to have drama. With the second guy ( college) I'm embarrassed at how co-dependent and people pleasing I was but this was all I knew to do. With H,- yes- neither one of us were loved for who we were. I had to work at appeasing my mother. He had to present a perfect self to avoid his father shaming him. I do think his mother loved him unconditionally. He's the golden child in the family but the GC has a lot put on them.

Sounds like your H was the scapegoat. I was too but didn't get into trouble. I was actually more afraid to misbehave or mess up beyond some usual teen age antics. One issue that leads to problems in marriage is not being authentic. I don't think either of us were entirely- due to fear.

In the push-pull, I think we try to get the "person we fell in love with" back but when there's a "false self", that "person" isn't real. When someone feels they need to be their "mask" self - they don't feel they are loved for who they are. I think both of us at first wanted the other to be like the early marriage times before all the issues but I realized that this isn't being authentic for either of us. "Co-dependent" people pleasing "me" doesn't do that much now. I also don't expect H to be the perfect person he felt he had to have. I think we are matched still but in a different ( and better ) way.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It sounds like you have a long road behind you, from codependent to your authentic self.

Thank you for this discussion. It helped me find my center in my relationship again.

I will probably lose it again, but I can find this conversation when it happens, to anchor myself back. 

In the end, H was good to me, and still is. We both aren't perfect, but like you and your H, we still match as well. Two faces of the same coin... We balance each other out.

Sometimes we reach an extreme, like two days ago. But we find our balance back, because in the end, we both are committed to our marriage, and we both want it.

Thank you again Notwendy, for sharing your story with me

[Notwendy]

One of the topics I read about concerning marriages was how some cultures arrange marriages and how our modern western culture chooses to marry for "love". If our attraction and who is attracted to us is influenced by our FOO, it makes sense we'd bring some of these dynamics into a marriage if we followed that.

One thing that made sense about the arranged version is that the two people will already have things in common, being matched culturally. They meet and talk first- about their goals and what they are looking for. If it's a match- they continue to meet. If not- they don't- with not much drama or hurt feelings as they were never close to begin with. There needs to be some attraction between them- but the "butterflies" maybe not so much.

We seem to do it backwards. We start with "butterflies" and are afraid to bring up serious topics early on when meeting someone. In this situation, we might end up with someone we have conflicts with, but don't know that until we are romantically attached and if there's a break up, it's hurtful and emotional.

But then I thought- what if a disordered family made the "match"- and then think - our FOO's influence who we choose to marry in both cases.  .

What is marriage for anyway? In my readings- I think it has several purposes- one being  a social construct for a family and raising children. I think another is growth- I don't think people should be hurtful to each other, but the challenges can be opportunities. I think we marry the  person we need in order to grow as a person.

[Riv3rW0lf]

We seem to do it backwards. We start with "butterflies" and are afraid to bring up serious topics early on when meeting someone. In this situation, we might end up with someone we have conflicts with, but don't know that until we are romantically attached and if there's a break up, it's hurtful and emotional.

But then I thought- what if a disordered family made the "match"- and then think - our FOO's influence who we choose to marry in both cases.  .

True. In our culture, we can escape marriage though. Divorce is accepted now, even celebrated. Married couples can even be scoffed at, I certainly was by some of my friends when I decided to get married. To them, marriage doesn't mean anything. To me, it meant commitment, and I always knew I needed it. I guess it all comes down to the value we put on word, on things, and on relationships.

In the end, for me, marriage has been forcing me toward growth, because it forces me to seek emotional connection in order to keep peacefully (I don't like the word "happily" anymore...) married. I want the partnership, the wisdom, or attunement? that seems to come over the years for the couples who can stick it together and keep trying together. I've had only one real example of it, from my great aunt and uncle. They loved each other so much. It wasn't passion. It was a deep understanding of things that seemed to keep them together. They were on another level. The alternative of staying in my marriage, I personally fear more than anything.

No matter how we connect at first, or who we connect with and to what level... I don't think it matters that much, as long as both are growth oriented, and willing to listen to the other, to find the common truth and to stay emotionally committed. That is maybe the biggest challenge...

Funny, I just asked my husband if he had the butterflies when we were dating. And he said yes, he experienced butterflies, passion, and all. Infatuation. While I was more on a rational level with him. There was simply no butterflies. I was at a point of my life where I remember thinking : "If I don't find someone before September, I will be a career-oriented person and never have children." I wanted a family, I wanted to settle. I was 25yo and ready. The biological clock was ticking. But I was a mess.

I was completely infatuated with someone else when I met my husband. And when the opportunity came, with H, to leave the province... I think part of me did it in reaction to the mess my life was. I figured I needed to start new. We decided to get married, so that my move would get covered by the army as well. We were 4 months into the relationship when we did. He had money (he had gone to Afghanistan, had been in the army for a while). And so I offered him to write a prenup to protect him. And he refused. He was completely in love and looking forward to settle. He didn't want to jump in with a foot out the door (his words). Looking back on it, I didn't have the butterflies, but I remember that day, that his love and complete commitment shocked me (positively). He felt safe, something I had never felt before. There wasn't butterflies, but for the first time ever, I think I experienced total trust. Real faith. He wanted me, and he saw me. I entered the union with a foot out the door, but ended up completely committed in the span of a few weeks. Like he unlocked a part of me I knew was there, but couldn't connect to by myself.

I didn't see him at first. Now I do though... But I wonder what it says about us, you know? The fact I didn't have the butterflies, while he did. I was at a point in my life where I was dissatisfied with everything anyway. I was thinking about the bottles of pills in my bathroom and bought a cat instead... I figured having something to care for would keep me around. And it did. I guess maybe my H has a bit of a savior complex. He did save me, in the end. Or I save myself. A bit of both, surely. He can be a mess, but then so am I. In the end, I do believe I found the man I was made for, and together, we did rise a lot, and our children seem healthy and sane. They are not withdrawn, they express and affirm themselves. So, we are doing something right.

But I know he was reliving something with me at first from his FOO, might be as simple as being in love with someone who isn't, I guess.

Either I got lucky, or maybe... Anyone can find this peaceful commitment, as long as they are willing to take a real, long, hard look at themselves. I can see you did too. When we find ourselves, it doesn't matter as much that the other isn't perfect... And you are right that letting go of this idea of what love should be, with the butterflies and the passion, is part of what needs to be done.

Sometimes I get dysregulated. I certainly was a few days ago. Tiredness and a fight, and I tend to split him, clearly a trauma reaction from childhood, but in the end, I am glad I can find him back, forgive, and focus on the goods we have, on our common understanding of our responsibilities. Our family comes first. He is reactive, but like your H, he also puts us first, is a present, good father, and he loves us deeply. He has traits, but not the full PD. There is no blame, no shame put on us.

What is marriage for anyway? In my readings- I think it has several purposes- one being  a social construct for a family and raising children. I think another is growth- I don't think people should be hurtful to each other, but the challenges can be opportunities. I think we marry the  person we need in order to grow as a person.

I like what Jordan Peterson says about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg8V4h25wNM

Which comes down to growth, like you said. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Notwendy]

It's possible that not having the butterflies helped keep you from picking an abusive person.

I didn't understand all these dynamics but while I was in college, I met a woman who lived near me who was about the same age range. She had just escaped an abusive marriage where her husband was so violent she ended up in the hospital. She was pretty, smart, friendly, and guys were attracted to her- nice stable guys in graduate school. But somehow she didn't have the butterflies with them. Then she met a guy at a bar. He drank a lot, I noticed she began doing that too. So while plenty of stable men were interested in her, she chose someone similar to her ex husband. I didn't understand why but I do now.

Although it's not my culture, the idea of arranged marriage makes sense- as long as the parents doing the arranging are stable. The parents do the research of what kind of person is a good fit for their child and the two people agree to a meeting and discuss their goals. There has to be some chemistry- if there isn't- they don't continue. But I think they look for the potential for deeper love, not butterflies but the potential needs to be there.

I think that is possible what you felt. "I could grow to love this man" rather than how we feel when we first see someone we are attracted to- but we hardly know anything about that person.

I've experienced this in a different way- not a relationship way but in the workplace or other areas where my first impression of a man is that he is not attractive at all. After working with them and seeing their good qualities- maybe they are good team players, or kind to others, they don't seem unattractive any more. Now, it doesn't go further than that being that I am married and most of the time they are too but I can see how it's possible to see someone differently once you know their personal qualities. It's happened in the other way too- a person might be physically attractive but once I get to know them better- not attractive at all.

I think you did good! Butterflies might not do anything for us in the long run.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I didn't understand all these dynamics but while I was in college, I met a woman who lived near me who was about the same age range. She had just escaped an abusive marriage where her husband was so violent she ended up in the hospital. She was pretty, smart, friendly, and guys were attracted to her- nice stable guys in graduate school. But somehow she didn't have the butterflies with them. Then she met a guy at a bar. He drank a lot, I noticed she began doing that too. So while plenty of stable men were interested in her, she chose someone similar to her ex husband. I didn't understand why but I do now.

This is sad...did you keep in touch? Was she able to get out of this pattern?

When I read the main book on Schematherapy, they recommend, for highly traumatized people, to go against the butterflies. That's when it hit me that in a very twisted way, it is possible that the different abuse I suffered from both my parents somehow cancelled each other out. Like your friend, I would have ended up in a highly abusive relationship. I see that now.

I wonder if healthy people, from healthy family system, also have butterflies for healthy people?