Codependent throughline

[Turkish]

When it was just three of us: SD25/SS23/me, then SD25 would try to get a conversation going with SS23 in Spanish, which I don't speak. SS23 would have none of it.

That's really rude. Good for SS23.

[GaGrl]

The language thing seems to be a tactic. My H's ex insulted me in her language as I was standing in the same room with her. My stepdaughter refused to speak in anything other than English and told me later what was said. She was furious but said it was typical snarky behavior for her mother.

I was trying to accommodate Ex regarding visits since my stepdaughter and granddaughter were living with us at the time. That was the last time Ex was in my home.

[livednlearned]

I am now convinced that C-PTSD is a chronic condition that can be managed, but triggers will lead to very real, physical reactions that can feel overwhelming.  We only get better in managing our response to it, and in coming back to our ground zero because we develop tools and the know-how.

This is oddly freeing to think of. I really appreciate this! When I feel these physical responses out of proportion (what I think of as out of proportion), I often think there's something wrong with me. I'm trying to just accept/acknowledge the sensations, and be grateful that there's a ground to return to. This happened when I saw my BPD sibling for the first time in 10 years at my father's 80th birthday. I was surprised at the physical sensations that came up.

How do you feel now? Does the sensation linger, or do you at least get back on your feet within a reasonable timeline?

The threat of what I was fearing has passed so things feel more manageable. I don't love that I ruminate on this stuff but I am glad that the extra thinking helped me pay attention so I could make sense of the feelings.

I have an adult stepdaughter who rumaged through my bathroom when she came over, then proudly proclaimed that she did so.

  Mine wandered into our bathroom when I was getting out of the shower. There's more but that was the most shocking. SD25 is covertly aggressive, so she works more in the shadows but until I managed to neutralize bedroom/bathroom privacy, she worked all the loopholes she could find. I used to think if we invited her to sleep in our bed she would've hopped right in.

I also felt the nighttime dread.  Weirdly I too went to my doc and complained of insomnia and anxiety.

It's awful, isn't it? During the day I have ways to manage these feelings but at night I feel defenseless.

I too have the disordered FOO and have had many many conversations with my husband about how his daughter triggers me - it all feels like my BPD mom, and sisters who enabled her, all over again.

These FOO triggers are hard. Does your BPD stepdaughter have a BPD mom?

She causes the feeling of dread in him too.

For H it seems complicated. I have seen him furious with her when she trips his trigger the way his BPDx wife did, and then SD25 learns where the line is with that approach and she goes back to waif, which he has fewer defenses against. What we have working in our favor is a newfound embrace for what is socially acceptable. SD25 does not act out like a lot of pwBPD. For her, it's primarily pushy, covert, relentless. She is remarkable at sensing where people draw the line.

Do you ever consider if your husband is ready to stand up for himself?  Is it easier to think of this as his trauma, not yours? 

To be fair, he has come a long way. I think because we're both conflict avoidant, I have put effort into being effective whether he participates or not, and that has had the unexpected consequence of building trust. He trusts that I will be effective and do the right thing without creating conflict. The result is that when I suggest something that will be better for us as a family, he is willing to go along with it. The other upside is that both siblings recognize that SD25 has issues like her BPD mom and they are talking to each other and asserting better boundaries. I don't want to overstate my influence here because they see therapists who are helping them, but I do think seeing these things implemented effectively by other family members has given them some wind at their back.

I can observe and at a safe distance hold them individually in a soft light, see them empathetically. 

This is a lovely sentiment. Thanks for sharing that -- it's a wonderful image to hold.

it’s also possible that you are having a normal response to an abnormal situation.

True. I think if I grew up internalizing better boundaries, I'm not sure how things would've played out.

That's really rude. Good for SS23.

The evolution of SS23 is a whole other topic. He is in a very bad situation (living with BPD mom) about to get worse.

The language thing seems to be a tactic.

Because BPD mom was a rager, and H won't tolerate being abused, SD25 is more fully waif-like to get her needs met. She has to find covert ways to feel better at other people's expense.

The more I recognized what was going on, the more I protected my reactions. Not knowing whether she is pushing my buttons, she has become very waif-like with me. After the Spanish thing happened, and SS23 not participating, SD25 kept trying to talk to me about my second language. It's hard to describe but having a BPD sibling I know there are layers to these interactions. After being covertly aggressive, she then tries to smooth things over to make sure she's in good standing.

It's exhausting.

[Couscous]

I wonder if your H would be motivated to ‘unmesh’ from his daughter if he was aware of how harmful his enmeshment is for her, and that it would actually be in her best interests to reduce the amount of time he spends with her to give her the opportunity to become more mature and self-sufficient. Do you think he might be open to reading Silently Seduced?

I’m also curious about what you think about the possibility that there is a part of you that actually wants to avoid too much emotional closeness with your H and that his enmeshment with his daughter might be allowing for a level of comfortable distance between the two of you, which feels familiar to you.

[livednlearned]

I wonder if your H would be motivated to ‘unmesh’ from his daughter if he was aware of how harmful his enmeshment is for her, and that it would actually be in her best interests to reduce the amount of time he spends with her to give her the opportunity to become more mature and self-sufficient.

I took a look at a sample of Silently Seduced. I'm not sure if there's a section in the book that discusses BPD children seeking out enmeshed relationships, or ones who had enmeshed relationships with their same-sex parent?

The real enmeshment seems to be between BPD mom and SD25. During her affair, BPD mom confided in SD25 (14 at the time), sharing details that make me feel ill when I think about it.

When I looked at the common characteristics for silent seduction, they don't seem to apply to SD25 and H.

SD25 and BPD mom seem to meet the criteria for enmeshment so maybe it's a matter of degree? Idk. And SD25 puts the same burdens on her siblings, maybe even more so. SS23 said that SD25 "parentifies" him. He feels he's supposed to be her parent.  

I don't know where the line between enmeshment and codependence is, but if there is one, H seems to be the one resisting with her desire to enmesh. Being codependent makes it harder for him to do this, which she exploits, although I would give him a B+ for effort when it comes to neutralizing many of the behaviors. Where we are different is that I am not trusting. I don't trust her and assume there is pretty much always an angle, always an agenda. Maybe because of my own FOO, or maybe because covert aggression is more obvious to women,  I tend to be less tolerant watching the problematic behaviors even start.

I’m also curious about what you think about the possibility that there is a part of you that actually wants to avoid too much emotional closeness with your H

We're pretty close. He's probably more emotionally available than I am, tbh, but I'm more committed to being emotionally intimate. We're both conflict avoidant, though we've gotten better at expressing difficult feelings and saying what we want, even if it's hard to hear. If there is a spectrum, we are probably both on the end of the scale where we're a little emotionally allergic. We are both in professions that are high on logic and reason but we're also both from dysfunctional FOOs and marriages, so there's a lot of common ground to cover and a willingness to look at ourselves, together.

When SD25 lived with us, I think what was most difficult is that it happened on the heels of SD25's first psychiatric crisis, plus the rawness of her parents divorce, plus her going off to college, her BPD mom moving to a new state, and then her dad moving into a new house with me, a new stepmom. Perimenopause didn't help  . It's a miracle we made it.

When I compare then to now, it gives me hope. We're moving roughly in the same direction. Maybe not as fast I would like but at least we're moving  

I thought when we moved 3000 miles away that SD25 would collapse and follow us out here. That hasn't happened. I think it goes back to my own FOO issues and feeling like there is a persistent threat. As much as I want to lay blame on SD25 for nutty behavior, I have to be honest that I bring some nuttiness to this too.

[Notwendy]

It's good that you recognize your own emotional reactions to this situation. It does seem more like co-dependency on your H's part.

My H's family dynamics are different from mine. What's most obvious is that they are less dramatically disordered than in my family but there are some dynamics that are less obvious but still "off".  There's probably some in every family.  His mother has some codependent tendencies but she's a kind and loving mother. Compared to my family, H's family looks more like the family shows of the 1950's.  The underlying dynamic though is that H is the golden child, and as an adult, the expected "hero" and "rescuer" for any family needs. While he sees his family as "normal" ( and a lot of it is )- I can see the dynamics clearer. Our families set our idea of "normal". We all tend to fall into our family dynamics when we are with our families. Everyone does this to some extent.

Seeing my H in his "hero" role with his family would irritate me. I don't think he notices it but I do. And also seeing him in golden child role . This obviously was seen in context of my role as scapegoat. It would make sense that this kind of reaction on my part had to be influenced by my family dynamics.

[Couscous]

It does seem more like co-dependency on your H's part.

Yeah, it does seem like this may very well be the issue. I wonder if there's been a role reversal and if there's a parent-child quality to their relationship, with her in parent role. Her behavior sounds similar to that of an intrusive MIL, which would be the case if she fits the profile of the borderline Queen. If so his (and everyone else's) role is to be passive and "please and appease" her, and you're probably expected to "take one for the team", and pretend that you're one big, happy, healthy family. If this is the case then it is a horrible position to be in at best, and at worst, could even be retraumatizing for you. 

It definitely sounds like she engages in relational aggression and you have every right to protect yourself from it. Just because she's not physically violent doesn't make her behavior any less harmful. If your H is either too oblivious or too scared to stand up to her, it is probably going to up to you advocate for yourself and start asserting yourself around her. But because she's covertly aggressive the only realistic solution might be for you to limit contact with her, but this might take some time to work up to. Eventually you could begin reducing the amount of contact you have with her and put your foot down about her staying in your house when she visits. You could also decide that you do not want to stay in the same hotel and only spend a few hours each day around her, or decide that you do not want to participate in their family vacations period. You may want to get assistance with from a family therapist who understands power dynamics in families. I also think the book Toxic In-Laws might be of some use to you.

[livednlearned]

Seeing my H in his "hero" role with his family would irritate me. I don't think he notices it but I do. And also seeing him in golden child role . This obviously was seen in context of my role as scapegoat. It would make sense that this kind of reaction on my part had to be influenced by my family dynamics.

Are your reactions to this more or less benign? Irritation is kind of what I'm going for because it doesn't seem to hit me physically. I definitely feel irritation, but that's in the realm of something I feel is manageable. The stuff I struggle with seems to be in "body keeps the score" territory where I experience intense emotional response to a threat that no one else notices. It's like being triggered and then getting stuck there.

I wonder if there's been a role reversal and if there's a parent-child quality to their relationship, with her in parent role.

When we lived together, I felt she was competing with me to be H's spouse. But I don't know if that behavior was present prior to me. The way it manifested was weird enough that I could point it out and H would agree it wasn't acceptable behavior and with the help of therapists we neutralized the most egregious. But for me, dealing with FOO triggers, I see things go underground and take different forms.

Her behavior sounds similar to that of an intrusive MIL, which would be the case if she fits the profile of the borderline Queen. If so his (and everyone else's) role is to be passive and "please and appease" her, and you're probably expected to "take one for the team", and pretend that you're one big, happy, healthy family. If this is the case then it is a horrible position to be in at best, and at worst, could even be retraumatizing for you. 

In some ways, what helps is that H has his own FOO triggers. He had a BPD-like mother, a BPD sister, and BPD ex. He is intolerant of overt abuse, and SD25 seems to know this. A few times she has tried queen tactics that H won't tolerate. One time, SD25 texted him, "I know you think I should be institutionalized" after a bunch of escalating texts about SI that began after H told her she couldn't join our date night. H can shut that down quickly because BPD mom used similar tactics. But the waif tactics he seems less able to identify.

Eventually you could begin reducing the amount of contact you have with her and put your foot down about her staying in your house when she visits.

It's funny, one of the consequences of neutralizing a lot of her behaviors is that H feels like we're all ok. And maybe if I didn't have these FOO sensitivities, things would be ok. I ruminate more than I care to admit about SD25 visits and how to handle the covert stuff I've come to expect, and the truth is she's in my life and I have to accept that.

After this last trip, H and I agreed that if the two kids visit (SS23 and SD25), we will rent them a place together. It's a little trickier to arrange that if only SD25 visits, not to mention the expense.

Sometimes I feel like I got too good at my job, and the consequence is that the conflict has gone underground. 

What I am trying to do is be more authentic and when SD25 makes me feel uncomfortable, to say so, regardless of the consequences. I'm probably just as guilty of being covertly defensive and she is of being covertly aggressive.

[Notwendy]

Are your reactions to this more or less benign? Irritation is kind of what I'm going for because it doesn't seem to hit me physically. I definitely feel irritation, but that's in the realm of something I feel is manageable. The stuff I struggle with seems to be in "body keeps the score" territory where I experience intense emotional response to a threat that no one else notices. It's like being triggered and then getting stuck there.

I think it depends. It was hard to identify dysfunction in my H's FOO since mine was so overtly dysfunctional. But there was covert dysfunction. They say we "match" our spouses and my H and I matched. We have had marital issues, some really tough at times. He has some "BPD-ish" behaviors- they aren't at the level of my mother, they probably wouldn't even be professionally identified but to me, that would trigger me into high panic, walking on eggshells and co-dependency- which then reinforced/enabled his behaviors. One significant difference though is that he became aware that his behaviors were damaging the marriage- which tells me it's not fully BPD but it was enough to get us into patterns that were similar to my parents, albeit less severe.

It was actually the issues surrounding my father's passing that led me to 12 step co-dependency work. This became a two for one work in progress. If I could work on my responses to BPD mother, then the responses to him diminished too, since she's far more difficult and severe and when I reacted to him in a different way, these behaviors diminished too, because I didn't reinforce them. It didn't work this way with my mother as PD behaviors are more resistant to change.

So my reactions to my H's behavior were as you described, more intense. He was at his worst with me, as these things go. In "hero" role, he would put on his "I'm the best guy ever" in front of his family who hero worshipped him so they didn't bother me as much, but they do irritate me.

Circumstances were that we live a distance away, but our families are near each other. He wanted to spend all that time with his family. I didn't want to spend all the time with either one family- I'm the sharer, the compromiser- we should visit both and we did but it felt mine got the short end of the stick. So ( and especially after co-dependency work) I realized there's no reason we have to be together the whole time. He can see his family, I can see mine and that's what we did.

This created a whole new dynamic. Once I wasn't with him ( I guess as enabler in a way) his family was out of their "company mode". It wasn't that they were abusive like my mother but the dynamics increased when it was just them and they would lean on him to do things for them and it actually got wearing on him. He also saw a bit of the dysfunction albeit would not admit there was anything "not normal" and mostly he was right. I had been trying to "get him to see" his part in our matching dynamics but after co-dependency work realized to stop that. Let him deal with his family crazy stuff. I have plenty to deal with in my family! . So yes while it irritates me, I also decided not to be around it a lot.

I don't like the "hero" role. I think it stems from the same fears- us trying to please other people while not being ourselves in order to be loved and accepted- and I know I am guilty of doing that as well- people pleasing. We were both doing it and I think that it led to resentment- for him and for me. I feel as if working on co-dependency led me out of this pattern and also helped him to realize he didn't have to do that with me.

I do think working on our own emotional reaction benefits us in many ways. I found it does in my case. But also I don't have a grown clingy BPD stepdaughter to contend with. I think your situation is hard. I think we would have issues if I were enmeshed with my BPD mother though or he was enmeshed with his which he thankfully is not.  My H would not like that at all.

[Couscous]

The stuff I struggle with seems to be in "body keeps the score" territory where I experience intense emotional response to a threat that no one else notices. It's like being triggered and then getting stuck there.

The problem is that it's not healthy for you to be triggered to that extent, regardless of who else does or does not notice. My T reminds me that covert aggression is still aggression. All that matters is that it is taking a very real toll onyou. 

But how many visits per year are taking place and for how long, and how many hours each day do you spend in her company during the visits? Do just the two of you take vacations?

[Notwendy]

I recall working on feeling triggered. These are information for us. When we are feeling like this, we can take a step back and think about it- what is happening and what to do. Other people can't "trigger" us- we feel triggered over something they said or did- and if we "own" that this is ours- it's ours to work on. In a way - feeling triggered can be a learning opportunity.

What to do is our choice. It was said in my groups the idea of " I have not had enough recovery work to be around this person" - the idea that feeling triggered is not a good thing and if one feels that way around someone, well maybe it's better to keep a distance. This still fits the idea that feeling triggered is our own feeling and we control our response to it. But what if that person is someone you live with?

I'm not talking about abuse- that isn't something to tolerate.

I recall the first time I realized that something my BPD mother said didn't bother me as much as it used to. That felt like progress. I didn't feel triggered. It wasn't that I chose to not feel the feeling- it's that I had been able to work at not taking her comments as personally- and I had better boundaries. Boundaries are key here. However, she still is verbally and emotionally abusive. Physically- I feel guarded around her and don't sleep well when I am around her. I have to limit contact with her- for my own sake- but part of co-dependency work is self care and choosing to take care of ourselves. Working on feeling triggered has made it easier to be around her- but I still have to have boundaries and self care.

I don't think it's possible to completely avoid contact with your H's daughter. She's an important part of his life, but as Couscous said- it's not a good situation for you. One analogy might be if you were allergic to dogs ( your SD isn't a dog, I know ) and your H wanted to see a favorite dog. It's not the dog's fault that you are allergic, but you know you need to take steps to take care of yourself when this happens- limit the time you are around them. If you are "allergic" ( sensitive ) to being around the SD, what can you do to take care of you when you are around her?

It's also not a rule that you both have to visit together all the time. While the dynamics in my H's family are more on the level of irritating - it helped when we spent a small amount of time visiting together and then did separate visits. Even if the behaviors in my FOO are dysfunctional, it's familiar dysfunction. It's easier to navigate what is familiar to us. That may be the same for your H. He's used to the dynamics with his SD but it's different for you.

Don't stay with her when you visit. Staying in a hotel rather than at my parents' house is easier. It's an expense- but it's an investment on my part for me- a space to myself. If you are worried about what your H might think, or she might think- too bad. If he wanted to stay in a house where there was a pet you were allergic to, you'd want your own space.

I think we can help work on not taking things as personally but we also are who we are. I was introduced to a woman who recently was visiting the area and immediately felt on guard. I could sense something was "off". This woman was disordered and others had some bizarre interactions with her. After meeting her for about 15 minutes, I was upset for a while and nothing really happened during that meeting. Someone else might have just thought "well she's crazy" and went on as usual. I think those of us who grew up with a disordered parent are more alert around people who are similar to that parent in some way. It is how we learned to navigate our families. If something about the SD affects you, then take steps to take care of you.

[Mommydoc]

LNL, I agree the covert stuff can be more difficult than the overt behaviors. Because we have all developed a hyperawareness, we may see or be triggered by behaviors others might not notice. The high level of personal self awareness required to manage a relationship with a BPD family member is  exhausting. When the behaviors are “over the top” and overt, others  see them and I manage better. When  it is covert, self doubt can creep in, I  question myself, Am I over sensitive, am I contributing or causing this, and instead of managing my reaction, I set impossible standards for myself, indulge in self criticism, soften my boundaries and unwittingly “reward” the unacceptable behaviors by letting her off the hook.

I love NotWendy’s comments about owning our triggers, that we have a choice and we control our reactions. I remember the first time, a friend said to me (kindly), you are choosing to feel that way, what if you chose something different? I had to step back.  I am getting better  at emotional detachment from my sister. She can say almost anything to me ( and she does say pretty horrible things) and I no longer take it at face value, feel responsible or feel a need to defend or explain. When she grossly distorts facts, I have reframe/restate, which  takes energy, but it is more like being around an unpleasant acquaintance, which is tolerable in short doses. It still drains my energy, but I bounce back much more quickly. For me the realization that I can tolerate her when I have to, while setting boundaries, and limiting my exposure to what works for me, has helped me feel more empowered. Now I have to work on, not letting her rent space in my brain “post exposure.”

Your decision to get a place for your SD/SS is an excellent choice, that acknowledges the importance of staying connected but choosing to do it in a way that is less taxing.  You are limiting your exposure to what works for you.

The stuff I struggle with seems to be in "body keeps the score" territory where I experience intense emotional response to a threat that no one else notices. It's like being triggered and then getting stuck there.

I can totally relate to that. I admire how you have managed through this recent visit, your self awareness and the work you are doing with your husband to get through this and make it work for you in the future. I am curious if, with the visit behind you, if you are still feeling stuck. Are you able “close the book, put it on the shelf”, with awareness she is still part of your life, you and your husband have a good plan, but you can put that visit/ chapter behind, so you can focus on the people and activities that bring you joy?

Thanks for sharing your journey LNL. 

[Couscous]

Just thought I’d share this article by a family systems therapist about loyalty conflicts in step-families: www.sfhelp.org/fam/lc_sf.htm

I thought it was interesting that he says that the step-parent has a right to ask their partner to take their side in a conflict, and that the step-parent is supposed to come before their children. This actually makes a sense, because in healthy, intact families parents are meant to prioritize the health of the marriage over the happiness of the children, so it stands to reason that this would apply just as much in step-families.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Just thought I’d share this article by a family systems therapist about loyalty conflicts in step-families: www.sfhelp.org/fam/lc_sf.htm

I thought it was interesting that he says that the step-parent has a right to ask their partner to take their side in a conflict, and that the step-parent is supposed to come before their children. This actually makes a sense, because in healthy, intact families parents are meant to prioritize the health of the marriage over the happiness of the children, so it stands to reason that this would apply just as much in step-families.

Funny...I went for a walk with my stepmother...my father and her came to visit this weekend, and I basically spent the whole weekend with her. I told her I had this new boundary where I refer my father to her everytime he wants to talk about my brother or sister, because I am not meant to carry the parenting role with him, that she was (she is a psychologist, so my guess is she was pretty much aware of everything that was happening in our family). And she looked at me with such relief...

Another time she was talking and my father cut her off to say something trivial, to get my attention, and I told him : stepmother was talking... He shut down, like a big baby...

I could see, all weekend, how he felt threatened by my new boundaries. I was prioritizing my own husband and family, and I was referring him to his wife, and encouraging him to act like her husband...

I was never meant to be this important to him. I have my life, my husband. I am not a parent.

Stepmother or not, she is his wife, and she should take priority over me.

I now see the importance of the healthy hierarchy in a family.

LnL, I also understand why your husband finds it difficult to deal with waify behavior though... We know that BPD are more at risk of suicide... When it is a parent, dealing with this increased risk is one thing, but dealing with this risk when it is your child, is another. That's my take on it anyway.

Part of my healing journey involves making peace with the possibility that my mother or brother could kill themselves. I am unsure I could do it with one of my children. Waify is vulnerability, it's the possibility of her commiting the irreparable, it's depression and suicide ideation... For a parent, this must be incredibly hard to observe without feeling compelled to help or save.

[livednlearned]

But how many visits per year are taking place and for how long, and how many hours each day do you spend in her company during the visits? Do just the two of you take vacations?

Because of covid, not many visits.  

But even without covid I think we would be down to one or two visits a year.

H and I both have had a lifetime of disordered people. This is the first relationship for either of us where it's reciprocal, equal, peaceful, fun, real. We like spending major holidays soaking in the peace and quiet, no visiting family. So H does not press for holidays together and SD25 can't afford to fly out without our help. Plus, she has to navigate BPD mom's needs, who lives close to her.

Where it feels like SD25 still keeps my nervous system activated is through texting and phone calls. She texts and calls H every day with few exceptions. To his credit, H contains the calls to his commute or when he's working out. I am grateful that, after initial struggle (with me), he now starts SD25 calls with, "I have about 10 minutes and then I'll be doing _____."

feeling triggered can be a learning opportunity.

Agreed. I'm also embarrassed how triggered I get despite how little interaction we have.

It was said in my groups the idea of " I have not had enough recovery work to be around this person" - the idea that feeling triggered is not a good thing and if one feels that way around someone, well maybe it's better to keep a distance.

This is a great way to look at it, thanks for sharing this way of thinking. It makes me realize that looking for a solution, like staying in separate units, is a form of keeping distance. As is encouraging SS23 to visit at the same time to break the potential for more intense triangulation of H, me, and SD25.

I realized that something my BPD mother said didn't bother me as much as it used to. That felt like progress. I didn't feel triggered. It wasn't that I chose to not feel the feeling- it's that I had been able to work at not taking her comments as personally- and I had better boundaries. Boundaries are key here. However, she still is verbally and emotionally abusive. Physically- I feel guarded around her and don't sleep well when I am around her. I have to limit contact with her- for my own sake- but part of co-dependency work is self care and choosing to take care of ourselves. Working on feeling triggered has made it easier to be around her- but I still have to have boundaries and self care.

This gets to my desire to accept where I'm while not perceiving that something is wrong with me. I can see how this acknowledges that these triggers are real and there is work to be done, and things will probably be messy, even with a safety net.

If you are "allergic" ( sensitive ) to being around the SD, what can you do to take care of you when you are around her?

What I would really like is to be able to take care of myself without feeling like I expend so much energy. It's draining. I find my mind drifting to potential interactions, some from the past, where I successfully jujitsu the situation. I'm ok if this happens a bit but it happens a lot. I'd love for it to take up less time and space in my head.

It's also not a rule that you both have to visit together all the time.

This is where we're starting to move toward. It's happening with my family. With H, I have been saying, "SD25 wants to spend time with you. Maybe you two start your trip here so I say hi, then you go off and explore from here." It's getting easier because there are many behaviors where SD25 shows she wants H's undivided attention, even if it's an off shoot of triangulation energy on her behalf. But I know from past experience that H used me to babysit so he could get a break from her, a behavior that I have successfully nipped in the bud   A few nights ago H said, "SD25 is so consumed with herself. I try to get conversations going on other topics but whenever I bring something up, she goes silent."

Because I am no longer codependent, I of course let this comment hang in the air and then ask him how that makes him feel  

I think those of us who grew up with a disordered parent are more alert around people who are similar to that parent in some way.

This goes both ways for me. I can also not see the disordered behaviors and walk right into trouble. I even did this with SD25 in the beginning, although I do remember feeling something was off.

There was a disordered woman in a new neighborhood we moved into. New houses, new neighborhood, so no one really knew anyone. I was the only person who befriended this woman. She was charismatic and had medical issues, and one day I was cleaning the cat litter at her house and realized I was being used. She had a husband. Why was I cleaning her cat litter? I managed to neutralize that relationship but I realized I still go right up to the stove and touch it. Maybe it's not putting my whole hand on the stove, but I do seem to get closer than a lot of people.

LNL, I agree the covert stuff can be more difficult than the overt behaviors.

This has become particularly true for me after decades of not really noticing covert aggression.

When  it is covert, self doubt can creep in, I  question myself, Am I over sensitive, am I contributing or causing this, and instead of managing my reaction, I set impossible standards for myself, indulge in self criticism, soften my boundaries and unwittingly “reward” the unacceptable behaviors by letting her off the hook.

I identify with everything you wrote, and I would add that responding in covert ways, which I do, exhausts me. It is exhausting to work out that there is a problem happening, how to approach it, how to move from codependent to the new thing, and how to keep the equilibrium with H, who has a different level of awareness about what's happening.

I don't drink much alcohol but one night we were in the kitchen, I was feeling unfiltered from a glass of wine. SD25 was clinging to H, who was standing next to me at the stove, and I just said, "Out. Shoo. Go. Too many cooks in the kitchen."

H turned to SD25 and said, "Let's back up and give LnL room to cook" and they both moved to the other side of the island but later H drifted back. When SD25 came back to stand near him, he said, "LnL and I cook together every night and we can work around each other but three people is a lot."

I wish I could be that assertive and no-nonsense about these things all the time.

I am curious if, with the visit behind you, if you are still feeling stuck. Are you able “close the book, put it on the shelf”, with awareness she is still part of your life, you and your husband have a good plan, but you can put that visit/ chapter behind, so you can focus on the people and activities that bring you joy?

Yes and no. I can see that the trip was a success, although like I mentioned above, I wish I could be more authentic and less covert in the orchestrations to assert my boundaries or take care of myself.

What doesn't go away is my reading of SD25's behavior. The day after the kids drove north, H and I went to hike a nearby mountain. I thought to myself, "She will text the whole time we're out hiking." And she did. It feels good to her to divide his attention when he's with me.

It was passive aggressive of me to say this, but after a dozen texts or so I said, "Let me guess, SD25 has diarrhea."  H laughed and said, "Close, she's constipated."

SD25 is either a hypochondriac or somatic and overshares to a degree I find repulsive. H is a physician. My grandfather was a physician, too, but my mom and her siblings are completely the opposite. Unless a limb is dangling from their body, they say nothing. They have serious health issues and it's always chin up and let's move on. I think SD25 knows that H will always respond when she has somatic issues. He's slowly realizing something -- SD25 will develop pain that he finds puzzling and she will report back on doctor visits that make no sense to him. Then things will go quiet and she will get upset if he asks for details, so he stops. When she starts up the complaints again, he has started to mention mind-body connection. Essentially, what else is going on that is causing you stress, have you checked in with your T, are you practicing mindfulness. She ends up getting mad at him because she perceives he's saying it's all in her head. Now they're in a low level fight which I think is what she wants.

I try to put a wall between me and this stuff if I can because it's more peaceful to not know but more often than I like things crest into my time with H and then it's a we problem.

I think I have a sixth sense for what is winding SD25 up. Does anyone else feel that way?

I know it's probably confirmation bias, but I sense that SD25 uses knowledge about what H and I are doing as a cue to interrupt. Not because I'm special per se, or that any of this is personal, but because I'm special to H. Therefore splintering H away from me, or away from someone he loves to do, is more meaningful to SD25. She got H to choose her over something else he care about, so for half a second she feels lovable.

I don't know whether I'll be able to let go that kind of hyperawareness, and I don't know if I'll ever not feel triggered. Maybe it will become a simple annoyance or nuisance, which would be great.

Right now I have to focus on what it means to be authentic, not just in saying what I want to say, but in also being true to what I value. There is still a lot of lag between those two things and that's where I hope to feel a little less friction.

[Riv3rW0lf]

LnL,

Honestly, I would be triggered too, BPD or not if my H would be on his phone while walking on a forest trail with me... Can't he close his phone? Have a real one on one session?

Maybe I am misreading this but the problem is not that she is texting : it is that he is reading and answering her during moments when he shouldn't. A phone can be closed and put away.

Why did he move out of the kitchen with her? Instead of simply telling her, right away like he did the second time? His first intuition is to follow her to the other side of the kitchen, and then to come back... Is is a Freudian reflex? I would wonder too.

I am starting to wonder if Couscous is not unto something with the hierarchy in the step family? That you are special to him, but he still treats her needs first, in a way, he is compromising, instead of having clear boundaries. He is pushing YOUR boundaries to the limits too and living more leeway to his daughter than someone in a healthy system likely would...

I'm not sure what YOU can do about it, but I don't think you are too sensitive. And I want to recognize your strength in taking care of your needs through all this, and still being able to not blame him, and to be compassionate with his struggles, while giving him space to figure it out, but not at the price of your own well being. It is a fine balance, and I don't think you should be ashamed of getting triggered. This whole situation feels very triggering indeed!

[Notwendy]

Agreed. I'm also embarrassed how triggered I get despite how little interaction we have.




This goes both ways for me. I can also not see the disordered behaviors and walk right into trouble. I even did this with SD25 in the beginning, although I do remember feeling something was off.

There was a disordered woman in a new neighborhood we moved into. New houses, new neighborhood, so no one really knew anyone. I was the only person who befriended this woman. She was charismatic and had medical issues, and one day I was cleaning the cat litter at her house and realized I was being used. She had a husband. Why was I cleaning her cat litter? I managed to neutralize that relationship but I realized I still go right up to the stove and touch it. Maybe it's not putting my whole hand on the stove, but I do seem to get closer than a lot of people.

I understand you feel embarrassed, but it's a result of our experiences growing up- from when we had no control over the situation and we understand.

Yes, I have done that in the past- get too close to disordered people and don't see the "red flags" but that has changed a bit since being able to tune into how we feel and boundaries. I think we tend to "not feel our feelings" or the creepy feeling of disorder feels somehow familiar. I remember somehow feeling good if my H was snapping at me and awful at the same time. A child wants attention and will take negative attention over no attention. Perhaps when BPD mother was angry at me - it was still attention. But I have learned to be more tuned into that "icky and creepy" feeling when being around a disordered person. It may feel OK at first because it's familiar.

When I met the woman I described in the other post, even being in the room with her - I felt uneasy and after she left - that creepy icky feeling- even if she didn't actually do anything wrong- there was just something about her interactions that seemed "off". Turns out she has a lot of disordered interactions with people that I found out later. I try not to misjudge people and give them a chance, but the creepy feeling I had around her was distinctive.

[Couscous]

I think if I grew up internalizing better boundaries, I'm not sure how things would've played out.

I think that people who grow up in healthy families internalize a sense of their own intrinsic worthiness, and the way this would play out is that they would have enough self-respect and value themselves enough that they would not enter into, or exit relationships with people who do not value them or treat them with respect.

One time, SD25 texted him, "I know you think I should be institutionalized" after a bunch of escalating texts about SI that began after H told her she couldn't join our date night.

In other words, he can say no to her when he wants to... He also clearly realized what was happening during the kitchen incident you described. I'm thinking that on some level he is enjoying and even encouraging the love triangle dynamics. I can imagine that being fought over by two women must give someone quite an ego boost.

[livednlearned]

@Notwendy, I have this ... theory? hunch? that while I've worked, with a lot of therapy, towards a secure attachment style, it is not a done deal, at least not all the time.

I wonder if, even with so much work, I'll have residues of insecure attachment style from FOO that can get triggered by disordered people I can't easily remove from my life.

It's been long enough that I was wandering around completely ignorant about myself and why I did things, that I barely remember what it felt like. What motivated me, what led me to make certain choices.

When it comes to SD25, it's like I finally built a boat that floats but with her, I keep springing a leak. I keep responding to that leak like I'm going to end up back treading water in the cold sea.

Maybe that is the best it will ever be? I guess I can live with this, as unpleasant as it is. I have tools. Sometimes, reading what you and others have written, I think maybe the way forward is to accept and acknowledge that this part of myself, and instead of focusing on it as a deficit, recognize that it's part of who I am. "Hello intense reaction, let's look at what's going on. Yep, a visit is coming up. Anything need tending? How about dial down on other stuff for the time being and get settled."

Rather than what sometimes happens, which is more like "Ok, gloves on, helmet on, check check check all the safety latches, button up, zip up, check check check, buckle up, check check check, don't let your guard down, get ready for a fight" followed by "something is wrong with you. Fix it."

I'm thinking that on some level he is enjoying and even encouraging the love triangle dynamics. I can imagine that being fought over by two women must give someone quite an ego boost.

I can see how that might occur in some dynamics. I'm trying to look at it as honestly as I can because I know that shadowy stuff does motivate our behaviors, things we don't like to look at. What makes more sense when I see them together is (diminishing) codependence and this worry, that he once expressed, about how containing SD25 makes her harder to deal with, overwhelming his skill set. Like me, I think he also feels that he won't be able to handle the emotions that come with a suffering child. In that sense, we both struggle with the same thing, except my child is on the spectrum with all that entails, and his child is high needs BPD, with all that entails.

If anything, I can envision a shadowy scenario where H felt needed by SD25 when she was a child, then he met me and we developed an adult, mutually reciprocal relationship, and then he "dumped" SD25, who was having none of it as a pwBPD. But I'm not sure if that requires enmeshment, which I don't really see as a two-way relationship with them. It looks more one-way from SD25 to H with the enmeshment happening between BPD mom and SD25.

That relationship is very toxic and worrisome.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think maybe the way forward is to accept and acknowledge that this part of myself, and instead of focusing on it as a deficit, recognize that it's part of who I am. "Hello intense reaction, let's look at what's going on. Yep, a visit is coming up. Anything need tending? How about dial down on other stuff for the time being and get settled."

This is also my approach now. Seeing it as a condition I need to manage and stay on top of. But not in a perfectionnist way, in a self-care, loving myself way.

I think, with our upbringings, it is easy for us to fall into overanalysing ourselves and others, wanting to make everything perfect... I just did it with my husband when we had an episode yesterday...

But in the end, like my psychologist stepmother told me : things shouldn't be perfect, life isn't perfect. You shouldn't be a perfect mother either, your children needs to learn to cope with imperfections and chaos, because that's what life is.  There is a difference between imperfection, being triggered and abuse.

Nothing is ever perfect. And it is ok to feel triggered too. And it is ok to lose control.

Looking at a dog snapping at her puppies relieved so much pressure off me once... We all get angry, we all snap, we all get triggered, and it is ok. It's part of who we are. We only learn to manage ourselves better by knowing ourselves better.

I understand better now why Notwendy often writes about following her internal ethic and boundaries... What I see now, is also that, and that this ethic and those boundaries are to keep ME safe from MYSELF. To take me back to ground zero when I get triggered, to keep me sane, safe and healthy.

They won't prevent triggers, they can't. I am not alone in a monastery, I live with people. But they can lead me back to myself when I do get triggered though...

[Notwendy]

@Notwendy, I have this ... theory? hunch? that while I've worked, with a lot of therapy, towards a secure attachment style, it is not a done deal, at least not all the time.

I wonder if, even with so much work, I'll have residues of insecure attachment style from FOO that can get triggered by disordered people I can't easily remove from my life.

It's been long enough that I was wandering around completely ignorant about myself and why I did things, that I barely remember what it felt like. What motivated me, what led me to make certain choices.

When it comes to SD25, it's like I finally built a boat that floats but with her, I keep springing a leak. I keep responding to that leak like I'm going to end up back treading water in the cold sea.

Maybe that is the best it will ever be? I guess I can live with this, as unpleasant as it is. I have tools. Sometimes, reading what you and others have written, I think maybe the way forward is to accept and acknowledge that this part of myself, and instead of focusing on it as a deficit, recognize that it's part of who I am. "Hello intense reaction, let's look at what's going on. Yep, a visit is coming up. Anything need tending? How about dial down on other stuff for the time being and get settled."

There's that saying in 12 steps- progress not perfection.

The analogy to alcoholism is that even if someone has been sober for years, they still are called an alcoholic- probably to remind them of that vulnerability. Someone else might be able to have a glass of wine at dinner or meet a friend at a bar for a drink, and it not lead to anything but they know they would have difficulty handling that. Still, they are sober, don't drink, and that is progress-they are considered recovered- but would possibly be uncomfortable walking into a bar.

Maybe an analogy is that, when SD is around, it's like you just walked into a bar. You've done the work, you have done recovery but you know some situations are difficult for you. You know this is a vulnerable situation. Maybe you can't avoid this "bar" but when you are there, you are on high alert.

There are certain people and times where I feel that. Like when I met that person who somehow gave me "crazy" vibes. I felt uncomfortable. I also feel like this when people are angry at me. If an encounter is not avoidable, then we can do things to mitigate it but perhaps that is a best effort at the moment.

[livednlearned]

I like that  

The intense emotions are subsiding now that the trip is over, and things feel manageable so maybe it's easier to say after the fact, but I like the idea of looking at this as a part of me that can both mean something AND be ok at the same time. Tricky! But probably the kindest way to move forward.

My closest GF pointed out something else to me that I hadn't noticed.

I confide in her about SD25, and there is ... comic relief ... in the way I describe how she behaves and how I feel.

GF pointed out that it's similar to the way I process things with my mom.

My mother is not BPD, though she is an emotionally immature, waif-like adult child. I have a lot of anger towards her, even disgust, and I have a hard time being around her for any length of time. My sibling's violence towards me goes back as far as I can remember and didn't stop until well into my 20s when he was kicked out. I moved out when I was 17 but occasionally I would come home and it would be business as usual.

At 19, I decided I wasn't going to spend holidays with my family even though I lived in the same town. It was clear to me that being in the same home meant being beaten, but at 19 I had options and was trying to exercise them.

Refusing to come home kicked off world war III primarily because it made my mom upset that I had done something bad to her, instead of recognizing I was trying to keep myself safe.

I'm starting to see how those two dynamics are kind of rolled up together emotionally when it comes to SD25.

[Riv3rW0lf]

At 19, I decided I wasn't going to spend holidays with my family even though I lived in the same town. It was clear to me that being in the same home meant being beaten, but at 19 I had options and was trying to exercise them.

LnL. I am so very sorry. I am the mother of a daughter and a son, and I can't even imagine what could push parents to abandon a child like that to the physical, emotional and psychological abuse of their other child. My parents did it too and the only way I can explain it to myself is that they didn't give a flying f... about what was going on, it was always about them and their needs.

BPD or not, your mother sounds very self-centered and she failed in protecting you. Considering the level of abuse you went through at the hands of your brother, I can't help but wonder what pushed him to become this way too... Was he born with higher PD risk or was he the result of the neglect and self-centeredness of your parents?

I recently realized that the disgust and contempt I felt toward my BPD mother came from my father, by his own self-centerness and by how he used me like a surrogate spouse from a very young age. This idea just popped in my head that maybe part of you is triggered by the triangle SD-H-you because it shares similarities with the triangle mother-father-you? With you forced in the role of mothering a grown woman you don't want to mother. Just some thoughts, I might of course be completely off base.

[khibomsis]

LnL, I'm with RW on this one. I think you are living in a most uncomfortable triangle which triggers your childhood issues, and your discomfort is entirely rational and reasonable. I think visits are difficult but the daily intrusion must be very stressful too. Because it makes it difficult for you and your husband to build a couple-hood. It must be stressful for him too or he would never have tried to get you to take the load off his back.
It is not normal for a 25 year old child to be calling and texting their parent every day, multiple times a day. And when that child is openly or covertly hostile towards you, jealous and controlling, you do right to be triggered by that. It is wonderful that your husband gets along well with your son, but then your son does not display these covert but toxic behaviours. 
I wonder if you and your husband have ever tried couple therapy? With both of you having special needs children sounds to me that you need all the support you can get.
 

[Mommydoc]

LNL, though you have referenced your FOO and abuse,  this is the first time I understood how your mother reacted. It’s horrific how she could make it about her. What a courageous and brave 19 year old you were, to protect yourself at such a high emotional cost. I am so sorry that happened to you. There are really multiple traumas you have endured. It sounds like there is more.

And what an amazing insight your friend provided. With this surfaced for you, it seems like an opportunity for healing for you, to explore your triggers, and begin to create awareness of them, hopefully working through them separately. Your SD25, is still a significant  irritant, but perhaps increased boundaries with her and continued open conversation with your husband, you can get to a place where it doesn’t take so much out of you. Your husband will benefit as much as you from setting greater boundaries with SD25; it’s not for you, it’s for both of you. You each have separate parts to own. From what you have shared, you both have the commitment to each other and yourselves to get to a better place, and agree couples therapy could help you in that journey.

[livednlearned]

I can't even imagine what could push parents to abandon a child like that to the physical, emotional and psychological abuse of their other child.

I don't get it either. I don't think I ever will.

In my quest to understand, I do see how it seems ... common? for families with difficult children to focus a majority of their attention on that child. My brother was a difficult child by any measure. He would be challenging for any family.

My family had means, though. Why not send him to a boarding school instead of pay exorbitant fees to join a country club?

Maybe my ability to get good grades, have friends and not rock the boat is part of why they didn't do anything. Maybe not expressing my feelings more overtly is a factor here.

I can't help but wonder what pushed him to become this way too... Was he born with higher PD risk or was he the result of the neglect and self-centeredness of your parents?

Genetically, he was definitely born predisposed to .. something. I don't know what, but he was a challenging child for everyone. He started running at 9 months and my parents say he never stopped. A doctor recommended a bed with restraints when he was 3, maybe 4 so my mom could sleep. Restraints didn't work so my mother was given sleeping pills  . uBPD brother used to run away when he was 4/5 which got him a permanent hospital band with his name, address, and phone number so people knew where to return him. It started like that and then it became violence, starting pretty early, and not just towards me but towards other kids in the neighborhood that he bullied.

There isn't a lot out there written about sibling violence. I remember reading an article that said something like 2 percent of children used rocks or objects to severely injure a sibling, which my brother did. The study also said most sibling violence was between boys and that it was rare for boys to be violent with sister, and that most of the violence tapered off in adolescence, which didn't happen for me. It's hard for me to make sense of.

Since my father didn't beat my mom, I assume that the violence was part of whatever my brother has, made worse because my parents were deficient. I assume it's a PD mainly because I married someone with BPD who has many of the same traits. There's probably more going on but the PD traits were the hardest to manage.

maybe part of you is triggered by the triangle SD-H-you because it shares similarities with the triangle mother-father-you? With you forced in the role of mothering a grown woman you don't want to mother.

It could be as simple as all of my FOO drama triangles getting triggered by SD25. Maybe that explains the intensity. I also have a very hard time with waif-ish people in general.

it makes it difficult for you and your husband to build a couple-hood.

Last night H and I were looking through photos to create a collage. In one picture, he is standing with his mother (deceased, BPD), his sister (estranged, BPD), his ex (BPD), while holding SD25 (BPD). He let out a laugh, and shook his head. "I almost got away!" Meaning, I think, if it weren't for SD25, he would be free of disordered people in his life.

I think he is now, more than before, fully seeing how SD25 triggers my FOO experiences, which he thought of as his burden (except when he was trying to pawn her off on me). Meaning, since he was the one dealing with her, why was I the one expressing so much emotion? I think he intellectually gets it now, having recently met my family, including my sibling.

It makes me think that if I want to feel safe, I have to make it clear that it's not healthy for me to be around SD25, independent of what anyone else is experiencing. Like Notwendy said, treat it like an allergy. The thought of expressing my feelings to that degree -- really communicating what I'm experiencing -- makes me see how deeply FOO oriented this stuff is. Because there is this messed up hero narrative where if I can hold it together, the family will be ok. I know it's unhealthy, but it's also ... scary ... to think of rocking the boat, as nutty as that sounds. I am absolutely not allowed to be crazy, ever. And by crazy, I mean put myself first ahead of everyone and anything.

I wonder if you and your husband have ever tried couple therapy?

We did back when SD25 was living with us, and it was helpful.

We're in a small town now, and it's hard to find therapists, much less good ones. I tried to find someone for S21 and it was a disheartening search. H is a physician and he said it can sometimes take 6 weeks to get urgent mental health care for his patients experiencing acute SI. I still look and ask, but covid mental health issues have definitely taken a toll  

it seems like an opportunity for healing for you, to explore your trigger begin to create awareness of them, hopefully working through them separately.

You've all been so helpful, making it easier to see this more clearly. I'd much rather detangle the knot of triggers and shuffle forward as a couple enjoying our lives, since things are for the most part peaceful. If it's necessary to express those emotions -- the desire to feel safe, or protected -- it would be ideal to do it in therapy. But I'm also willing to find an effective way to say what I'm feeling, even if it's hard to hear.

I just can't shake the kid feelings in me, you know?

[Couscous]

I was watching this clip from John Gottman today about the importance of trust in relationships and thought about this thread when he got to the part where he asks, "Can I trust you to choose me over your wife/friends?". I think we can add kids to that list too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0edZLvUTojA

In this video from Ken Adams I noticed that he talks about men who are enmeshed with their mother, and/or their families. I had been wondering if your H grew up in an enmeshed family, and hearing that his mother and sister had BPD is confirmation of this, and he will have unwittingly recreated the enmeshment with his kids.
https://www.overcomingenmeshment.com/a-message-for-partners-of-enmeshed-men/

Fingers crossed that you can find a good marriage therapist. If you aren't already aware of this, thanks to the pandemic you can do teletherapy with any therapist licensed in your state, so don't have to be limited to just your town.

Best of luck to you!

[livednlearned]

It doesn't seem quite so clear cut to me. I see a struggle, for sure. I mostly see H has worked his way out of whatever he was dealing with, so if it was enmeshment, it doesn't seem to be that now.

He's made a lot of strides, partly through our therapy sessions, learning what is healthy when it comes to having a child like SD25, and partly through this joint effort we're involved in to build a strong marriage.

I read this online:

Enmeshment implies that we have lost ourself in the dynamics of a relationship with another person. We are no longer able to define who we are, what we think, or what we need because we have blurred our experiences with the experiences of the other. If you are waking up to the idea that you have perhaps begun losing yourself in a codependent dynamic, it is not too late to set up some clear boundaries. If you tend to take on other people’s emotions, consider taking a break. Answer your phone less, be less available, say ‘no’ once in awhile, take some time out for yourself, give social media a rest, meditate, take a yoga class, go for long walks, spend time in nature, and do what you can to remember that it is not your job to worry about other people. It really isn’t. Worry doesn’t solve anything. Letting go and believing that the other person has the power to fix their own life solves your problem and eventually theirs too.

H hasn't lost himself in the dynamic of a relationship with SD25. He can define himself. He knows what he thinks, and what he needs. He answers his phone less, is less available, says no, takes time for himself, works out, meditates, goes for long hikes, spends time in nature and does more to ensure SD25 hits adult milestones than I have done with my kid 

I think what might be getting lost in this thread is that I'm beginning to realize that, of the issues I'm struggling with, I am the problem.

I don't mean problem in the sense that no one else is culpable. I mean in the sense that people have grown and made big changes and I'm still triggered AF.

The people who seem enmeshed in terms of the definition above are SD25 and BPD mom. Their relationship hit a speed bump when SD25 developed psychosis in her teens. It hit a level of severity that surpassed what BPD mom could manage, so care transferred to H. My therapist once commented that SD25's psychotic episode was a profound way to communicate how much distress she was experiencing living (primarily) with BPD mom following the divorce. Once it escalated to that level, SD25 was able to get a therapist who gave her the language, "I have a right to have a relationship with both parents" and spend her 50/50 custodial time with H.

I appreciate the persistence  and I am genuinely open to enmeshment as a root issue here. If it is, it's one of degrees.

I'm finding it hard to look at the rainbow of dysfunction in our four families (if you count our two FOOs, and then the FOOs of our kids) and try to see things clearly so I can learn and grow. Some things snap into place and the sky lights up with fireworks. Other times, even when I squint I don't see it quite fitting. For H's FOO, enmeshment seems to be most evident between mothers and daughters. His failing strikes me as garden variety codependence 

What I'm trying to figure out is why I'm responding to improved conditions as though we were still in the bunker wars of our early years together, living with SD25.

[Couscous]

Yes, I can see how keen you are take all the blame. 

I may be completely off the mark but thought this article provided lots of food for thought on the topic:
https://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/counselling/its-all-my-fault-self-blame.htm

[khibomsis]

LnL you are such a resource on this board and have enlightened my soul so many times. Now I see your wisdom was hard won.

I think NW's analogy of an allergy is spot on. I have seen it at work hundreds of times, people use something for years, decades even, then suddenly they hit the point of overexposure and bam! Allergic reaction. It is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Could it be that you have PTSD from those early years with SD25? I am about to try hypnosis in an effort to shift some of the stuff that is resisting decade 2 of therapy. Will keep you posted if it works.