Father with uBPDw Looking for Perspective

[LifewithEase]

Hi All,

As a husband of a high functioning uBPDw and father of 4th and 7th graders, I'm looking for insight and advice from children and adult children. Specifically, on how uBPDw treats me in front of the children.

As I learn more about BPD, I'm seeing clearly how the dysregulation (and all the aspects of BPD) and daily treatment are infecting the family.

In particular, right now I'm looking for help with the growing wedge uBPDw is creating between me and the children.

There are standard types of open actions like put downs (criticism, shaming, etc.), shut downs (you can't do that, tantrums), and parental gatekeeping (ignoring me, dismissing me, etc.).

Then there is when she gets dysregulated. I understand how pervasive and unacceptable it is.

Few Areas:

- Reversing Normalized Behavior: How do I reverse the normalization of her behavior? Sadly, which looks normal for them.There are so many examples but I'll pick a simple one: she shames or dismisses me, making me look incompetent and the children are left with the impression that I don't know what I'm doing; my opinion or knowledge is wrong; or that my feelings are inappropriate?

- JADE: In real time, how do I not JADE but show my kids that I stand up to myself? Yet, doing it in a way that doesn't trigger uBPDw even more. She tends to make my silence or my refusal to engage a "win" for her. Or the kids get frustrated I don't push back (many times when it is something small but I know that it would be a HUGE trigger. There are times, for example, where I can't leave the room: in the car during a road trip, in-line at a restaurant, in the doctor's waiting room

- Post-Episode: The kids, as am I, are afraid of her [predictably] unpredictable ways. [I've been actively working on this, setting boundaries, etc.]. For the children, how do I "clean up" after one of her dysregulation episodes? What do I say or do not say to the children?

- Parental Support. When she struggles with the kids (as all parents do) I have her back in various ways.  When I struggle with the kids, she doesn't align with me but tends to be passive and lets me struggle alone and/or allows the children to behave or say inappropriate things.

- Isolation. She sabotages, tantrums, or rejects opportunities to spend time with my family and close friends but makes time with her family a top priority for the kids.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and insight.

[Couscous]

First of all I would like to acknowledge just how incredibly painful all of this must be for you. It probably feels like insult added to injury added to insult.

I think that if you can begin to take the focus off of trying to manage your wife’s behavior, and instead, begin to work on your own healing, your children will soon realize that you are the safer parent, and will naturally gravitate towards you. Like the saying, you can’t chase out the darkness, you can only let the light in.

[Notwendy]

I will echo what Couscous said- we know how difficult this situation is for you.

I will also reinforce taking the focus off her and on to you. It's not really possible to change and manage someone else's behavior and it takes an emotional toll on you to keep trying to do this.

You may "appear" to be the more together parent and in many ways you are the more functional pattern but in trying to manage your wife's behavior, you are also demonstrating enabling and co-dependent behaviors. Don't confuse co-dependent with dependent. It's different.

She may be the one who obviously needs counseling but you actually need the support of counseling to manage this situation too. So do the kids. They need someone neutral to validate them. You can't fill this role without triangulating.

Taking care of you, and your emotional skills is key here

[NightwingingIt]

Hi! I’m not a parent, so I’m not sure how helpful my insight is here, but I would like to weigh in as the 23 year old daughter of a dBPDf.

I can only speak of my own experience here, but I also have a bit of insight from my four siblings…. The five of us grew up in a household ruled by our dads mood changes and outbursts, and we all came away with different experiences, that is to say, your kids are likely going to have very personal and maybe even private reactions to what’s going on at home. The best thing you can do for them, in my opinion, is communicate honestly. Remember that your children aren’t responsible for the full scope of your relationship. They shouldn’t have to know every detail, but they’re people too and they could also benefit from some insight (at their level.)

Your kids likely don’t realize the extent at which the way they live is not normal. I used to look at the other kids at school and assume that they all struggled with the same things I did, I was just the only one who couldn’t handle it. I’m sure it’s easy to feel as if your partner is succeeding in undermining your parenting, I don’t know your situation and can’t judge on that. I will say, as a kid in that situation, you’re mostly occupied by how hurt you are. You don’t really have the capacity to analyze everything going on between your parents, but you do know which parent is safer. Which relationship doesn’t burn you. One of the best things my mom did for me was letting me be honest about some of the ways I was hurt and validating my feelings instead of blindingly telling me that I couldn’t be upset with my dad when he was hurtful to me.

As far as fighting back goes, I was never personally upset about my mom not fighting back, but my sibling was. They felt like our mom was choosing our dad over them by letting him get away with such awful behavior. It made them feel alone and like our mom cared more about our dad than us. There is no perfect solution to this, it’s an emotionally charged and exhausting and painful situation. Again, I’’d say the best thing you can do is be honest with your kids. Explain a little bit of why you make the decisions you make. It won’t fix their anger about it, but it might just make them feel less alone to understand why these situations are allowed to play out the way that they are.

As for after an episode, I’ll just say this: my mom always took care of things behind the scenes. And then the two of them acted like nothing bad had happened, like we hadn't all witnessed it and things just went back to normal. Checking in on your kids without your BPD partner after an episode would probably really help them. In the aftermath of my dads explosions, my siblings and I all dealt with our fear alone, behind closed doors. Letting your kids do that is a sure way to teach them that the only way to be emotionally safe is to deal with things alone.

I’m sorry if this didn’t really address your concerns….Kids are a lot more perceptive than people give them credit for. They know which parent is really there for them. But growing up in such an unstable home is confusing and painful. They’re going to have to come to terms with it in their own way.

I really wish you the best of luck navigating such a difficult road.

[Couscous]

I’m wondering if your wife is engaging in parental alienation… Apparently this can happen even in intact families.

[Notwendy]

Parental alienation or Karpman triangle dynamics- hard to know but I don't think the main intent is to turn the kids against you, but that she's using the kids to self soothe her feelings, putting them in rescuer position and you in persecutor position while she perceives herself as victim.

Consider that she may be engaging these same dynamics with you- you taking rescuer position and someone or something else (even the kids) become in persecutor position if she's upset or angry with them.

I think it's inevitable that the kids will see the behaviors of both their parents as normal to some extent. You two are their main role models. You aren't responsible for your wife's behavior but you are responsible for yours. Eventually I could see that my BPD mother's behaviors were not normal. The misperception was that my father was the normal one and the victim of my mother's unreasonable behaviors. It was as an adult that I had to work on my own co-dependent behaviors when I realized that this was role modeled to me by my father.

I have seen this concept misunderstood by some of the men on the relationship board. They are the stronger ones, the ones that support the family, and don't have the visibly disordered behaviors like their wives do. The resist the term "dependent" in that word but it doesn't mean that. Many people with co-dependent traits are strong and supportive people but they focus on the needs and feelings of others to the extent of neglecting their own.

If kids need "normal"- then you be the more "normal" parent because unless your wife is motivated to do the kind of work it takes to change her behaviors, she won't be able to role model more "normal" behaviors for them. This probably means you going to therapy and other ways to manage your behaviors (I did that and 12 step codependency groups).

Kids need their observations and feelings validated. As I got older and went to friends' houses I could see that their mothers were different from mine. We were afraid of my mother and also at times, resentful and angry. It's good that you recognize your fear of your wife's unpredictable behaviors and those of your kids. Fear is often the driving force of co-dependent behaviors as we tend to enable and walk on eggshells to manage both the person's behaviors and our own fears. That's an example of co-dependent behaviors. Walking on eggshells was also normalized in our house and when this becomes the focus of the other family members, there's no room for anyone else to have feelings or needs. The kids' feelings are likely to be ignored, neglected, or invalidated. They will want to know why their mother is acting like she does.

To provide validation and honesty for the kids in an age appropriate way, I think this needs to be done by a counselor. If you were to do it, it would be hard to avoid triangulating, or putting them in an uncomfortable situation on the "triangle" as your relationship issues are not their responsibility. A trained counselor would be objective and not be in the middle of your marital issues.

Ultimately though, this is not about the kids. The issues you describe are mainly between you and your wife. By saying she's "alienating them from you" - in a way that puts you in "victim" position in triangle dynamics and making this her fault. While that's a valid statement, it also makes her the persecutor. One goal is to not see things on the triangle. In general, there are few true adult victims in these dynamics. A true victim doesn't have choices. You, as an adult, have choices- they may be difficult ones in these kinds of relationships but still, you can choose how to respond. Children though are true victims. They depend entirely on parents for their survival. You two are the only parents they have. They don't have choices.

You can work on your part in the dynamics. Getting counseling for you to help do this could be a game changer for you, as well as the children as you are a role model for them.

I think my father did the best he could with what he knew to do at the time. Eventually kids grow up and leave home. Then it will be just the two of you. How your kids perceive you may vary. They may become enmeshed with their mother- which would not be good for them, or they may not want contact with her at all, or anything in between. In my situation, my relationship with my mother has been strained. Dad was the good guy. But later, I see where it was more nuanced for both of them. I can't know what would have happened if he'd done anything differently because we don't know the road not taken. From an adult perspective, if there was something I wish he'd done differently it would have been for him more than me. I wish he had been able to change some of his enabling behaviors and able to stand up for himself better. I saw how difficult his situation was and wished it was better for him.

One of the questions adult children have here is why didn't Dad stand up for us? But I could see that if Dad couldn't stand up for himself, I can't expect him to stand up for me. Please learn to take care of yourself and your needs better. It's good for you and good for your kids.

[Methuen]

LifewithEase,

I hold a whole lot of respect for you for posing your question here.

I am a 60 yr old daughter (only child) of a uBPD mom.  I remember spending a lot of time sitting at the base of a tree in a forest as a child, crying, or angry, and not understanding.  

My dad was a person who everyone liked.  He had great people skills, was friendly, likeable, helpful and pretty easy going generally.  He had integrity and his reputation was important to him.  I was very very lucky to have him because I had one functioning parent.  He also had old school values, and between my mom’s unpredictability, and my dad’s strong principles (I always wanted to please my parents but for very different reasons), I didn’t mess around.  I was a good kid. Dad was also a workaholic.  Looking back, it may have been a coping mechanism.  I’ll never know.  I only informed myself about BPD about 3 years ago when I reached the end of my rope with an aging UBPD mother. He passed away about 17 years ago. His life ended with dementia. I miss my dad every day.  He was a kind man.

My dad was also a composed and patient man.  But he had his limits.  What I remember are a few occasions when he set a firm
boundary with his tone, and snapped at her “That’s enough ______(name).”  Amazingly, she stopped. I can’t say why.  He never yelled  at her.  It was more composed than that.  I always respected him for setting that boundary.  And it has stuck with me my whole life.  There was the story about how after they were married, and she had her first rage, she raised a knife at him.  He told her if she ever did that again, the marriage was over.  She never did.  

He put up with a lot…but he had his limits, and when she crossed the line, he let her know it, but without losing his own temper.  I respected him.  He was not a pushover.  He was patient and picked his battles - but without yelling.

I always knew my dad was the safe one.  But he wasn’t usually available because he was a workaholic.  He was gone before I woke up, and worked at home in the eveings.  He also had a man cave in his shop and spent his time out there when he wasn’t working.  Sadly, I was just a kid, and couldn’t protect myself against becoming enmeshed with my mom.  She raised me to be the caretaker of her feelings.  It was harmful. I started seeing a counselor when my kids were growing up, but rarely and only when things  got really bad because of her abuse.  The last 3 years have been extraordinarily difficult.  Some people will say that BPD improves with age.  My experience is the opposite - she only got worse and more abusive.  It all changed when my dad became ill and later died.  

Several  things are important to me from my dad.  One is that I remember witnessing a few times he exercised boundaries.  Now in my middle age, I have had to learn boundaries with my mom, and I remember dad doing it. The other thing is when he was ill and still living at home, my mom couldn’t handle the stress of his illness.  He asked me once to drive him to the doctor.  Once there he invited me into the consultation room, where he told his story about how his wife was treating him to his doctor.  She told him it sounded like BPD. He trusted me to go into the Dr office with him.  That information was a gift.  I heard it when I was about 40.  I didn’t start educating myself until some years later when things got a lot worse for me. Another thing that is so important for me is the memories of the times we spent together- without my mom.  Those are really precious memories. 

I think one thing you could do for your kids is role model boundaries.  Another is consider how you could get them counseling, as others have suggested.  I’m not sure about the logistics of that, as she would never agree to it, and could be triggered by the suggestion.  But certainly you could get support for navigating the situations you have described.  I was a high functioning professional with a successful career, but I had to learn a whole new set of skills to manage my relationships with my mom if I was going to preserve my own mental health.  

This is why other’s have already recommended seeing a counselor or therapist.  They support us with education and new skill development, which includes looking after our own well being.  We can learn skills so that we don’t become a doormat for our pw BPD, and we don’t role model being a doormat for our kids.  

I don’t know if any of this is helpful.  But that’s my perspective as the daughter of a UBPD mom, and what my dad meant to me.  

I still miss him everday.  Now that I understand mom better, I wish I could have a conversation with him about it all.

In your situation it’s tricky because your children are young.  It might feel like an impossible situation to navigate, but a good counselor could support you, if that is something you could do.  

This board is also extremely helpful and supportive.

It’s not easy, but you certainly sound like someone who wants to do what is best for everyone.  

[Couscous]

If you haven’t already read it I highly recommend the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.

[FirstSteps]

Hi.  I very much relate to this post.  I wouldn't say my uBPDw drove a wedge between me and the kids because she has been too waifish to want that control.  But I have had many, many issues with poor boundaries and subtly choosing her over the children, especially when my daughter hit adolescence. 

I would highly recommend reading Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent:  https://www.amazon.com/Raising-Resilient-Children-Borderline-Narcissistic/dp/B09HYXFZCK.  This book changed my life and parenting.  If it's possible to start choosing the kids regardless of the consequences with the BPD, then all the rest can get better - even if it means accepting and harboring really negative immediate consequences.

[Couscous]

I think the greatest gift you could give your children is modeling for them that we do not cause other people’s emotions. This false belief is basically what is at the very heart of codepedency. Aggressors believe that other people “make them mad”, and then “made them do it”, and the codependents believe them.

Two resources I have found that tackle this false belief are Nancy Dryer and her book Everyday Narcissism, and Margaret Paul’s books and articles.

Here’s a good article on the topic: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/enlightened-living/200805/the-myth-managing-emotions

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think the greatest gift you could give your children is modeling for them that we do not cause other people’s emotions. This false belief is basically what is at the very heart of codepedency. Aggressors believe that other people “make them mad”, and then “made them do it”, and the codependents believe them.

In the context of a person with BPD, I can see how remembering that we are not responsible for someone else's reaction and especially of the strength of their emotions is important. However, I am not sure I am very comfortable with that belief. Coming from someone who didn't read the book of course... My father is a huge fan of this way of thinking... Pushed to an extreme, this is also incredibly unhealthy...

He will stand up while you talk and leave. Change the subject, basically not listen. And if you say you feel hurt by his actions, he will answer : this is on you, your emotions are your responsibility.

I hate it.

In a healthy relationship, you have a responsibility both to yourself and to the other. If I tell my husband I will be back by 5pm, and am still no back at 6hpm, he will be worried, then likely mad that I didn't let him know I was running late. He is responsible for the not screaming after me, and for letting me know, in a healthy way, how he felt. But I also have to recognize that my actions or lack thereof caused his distress. If we love someone, we will be respectful, not by fear, but because of love.

So.. I understand where this come from and agree in part.. in the end, any extreme is unhealthy.

...

I'm sorry I don't have many advice for you LifewithEase, I do agree however, that one of the best thing you can do right now is to turn back the focus on yourself.

What stroke me in your post is how you seem mostly concerned about how your children are reading the situation, and I get it entirely. However like others have mentioned, I believe your children right now are not looking at who you are and how you are acting, not consciously anyway, but are likely in survival mode.

I remember feeling constantly stressed at home with BPD mother. I wasn't concerned about if my parents agreed or disagreed, I was mostly in survival mode, trying to appease my mother, and this whether or not I was asked by my stepfather to do it. It was out of my own volition, to keep my mother from raging at me.

I think that to be the safe parent is to realize that they are young and vulnerable, and to validate them by taking the time to offer safe spaces for them to be themselves away from their mother once in a while... A weekend doing something else entirely, something norma.. go camping or fishing, or a movie once in a while... Sometimes we don't even need to talk about mom and home... But more ; hey what's happening in school? What do you like most? What movie did you watch recently?

Showing them normalrcy is providing them WITH normalcy. Healthy family do not always talk about heavy subject, they do not always ask : how do you feel about mom? You know she shouldn't say that, nor do this... They talk about other things... I can guarantee your kids would enjoy a discussion about normal things children their age like too... Maybe you are already doing it... I was just thinking this is something this was the best moments for me... When it was about being a child and not about what was going on at home and how bad it was.

[Couscous]

My father is a huge fan of this way of thinking... Pushed to an extreme, this is also incredibly unhealthy...

He will stand up while you talk and leave. Change the subject, basically not listen. And if you say you feel hurt by his actions, he will answer : this is on you, your emotions are your responsibility.

I hate it.

Ohhh, your father sounds exactly like my brother... :/

So Margaret Paul says there are two types of pain: Existential pain, which hurts our hearts, and wounded pain, which hurts our feelings.

Existential pain can indeed be caused by another's unloving behavior, while wounded pain is the pain we cause ourselves due to our false beliefs - like we're not good enough, not lovable, defective etc. But in the case of your father, his behavior is quite unloving, and as such it is totally natural that it would feel very painful for you when he withdraws and disconnects like that, and then on top of it, doesn't seem to care when you tell him how hurtful it is for you.

In this case you could try having an adult-adult conversation with him at time you are feeling centered, and saying something like, "When you walk off/change the subject, it feels disrespectful and hurtful, and there must be a good reason that you do that. I'd really like to understand.” Perhaps it's when the conversation is heading into "dangerous" territory (too much emotional closeness), and just like plopping a live snake in his lap, he just can't stand it and has to abruptly end the conversation. If this is the case, then this is something you would have to be willing to accept about him, and then just try to meet him where he's at by sticking to superficial topics that interest him, or even reducing the amount of time you spend with him if this is a common occurrence. And then of course, it is vital to then give your inner child' a lot of empathy whenever this behavior occurs.

Here's a good article about this:
https://www.innerbonding.com/show-article/4679/staying-loving-in-the-face-of-others-unloving-behavior.html

[Riv3rW0lf]

Perhaps it's when the conversation is heading into "dangerous" territory (too much emotional closeness), and just like plopping a live snake in his lap, he just can't stand it and has to abruptly end the conversation.

It might be, but I think he just gets bored with any subject that isn't linked to geopolitics...and these days weather control and population control via the covid vaccines. 

My father has always been self-centered... I also suspect him to have a very high IQ but an incapacity to comprehend emotionnally all that is wrong with the world and to accept it, resulting in him looking for someone responsible for all that is wrong.

I have pretty much accepted this is how he is and I now ignore the behavior and mostly discuss with my stepmother, unless I am willing to listen to his topics, which I sometimes do. It makes him happy and I don't really mind anymore.

Thank you for the perspective though, might come in handy at some point down the road...

[2of3]

For background my family’s background sounds like your marriage.  Since then my husband and I have raised our two kids now in their early twenties.

Do you intercede on kids behalf?  When she attacks you, do you model the behaviour they can follow?  If it is too hard to stand up for your children or yourself how can you expect they would have the tools and strength to stand up for themselves or you? Why is avoiding her rage more important that protecting your kids? 

Be honest with your kids…”you did nothing to deserve your mother’s rage” and “this isn’t normal” would be a start.

You wrote “Parental Support. When she struggles with the kids (as all parents do) I have her back in various ways.  When I struggle with the kids, she doesn't align with me but tends to be passive and lets me struggle alone and/or allows the children to behave or say inappropriate things.”

Nope.  Sorry I don’t accept this.  If your children see their mother verbally abuse you, they see your reaction and then model the same behaviour.  Then they’ll go out into the world and model that same behaviour in future relationships.  You need to take charge and establish with your kids that they can’t treat you like that, regardless of their mothers behaviour towards you or them.  I see wonderfully behaved children at daycare turn into little monsters the minute their parents show up…you need to teach your kids how they are going to behave towards you. This would true even if your wife was a great partner.  Face it. She is never going to stand up for you.  She might even find your kids abuse of you rewarding.

Also, I’d be careful how much you support her with parenting. My father would support my mother all the times with parenting decisions that were unreasonable or based on lies. 

You wrote: “Isolation. She sabotages, tantrums, or rejects opportunities to spend time with my family and close friends but makes time with her family a top priority for the kids.”

It is important that your kids see healthy family dynamics.  You want support.  If she is preventing both of these things you need to get help. Isolating is a common technique for abusers. For you and your kids, you need to bear the brunt of her rage and push past her barriers.

I’m sorry if I sound harsh but I’m speaking to you as a child who suffered through abuse and dysfunction. One aggressive parent and one passive parent made me feel like I deserved it.  When I had my own kids I stood up for them.  This led to going nc with both my parents, but I was honest with my kids at the time which minimized the longterm damage. My kids were and now we are very close

My advice to parents always is that parenting is the long game.  You need to decide what type of relationship you want with your kids in twenty years and start working towards that today while you still have the ability to make decisions and time with them.  Anything you are experiencing today will only become more entrenched overtime.

It is not too late.  So glad you are asking these questions. I hope you find the strength to be the parent your kids need.

[ZeroSumGames]

Why is avoiding her rage more important that protecting your kids? 

LifewithEase, I am here with you and struggled with this decision too.  This one is a major sticking point.  It is a double bind situation and honestly quite messed up that we even have to think about it.  You want to protect your kids.  Your other parent does sometimes and other times abuses you and the kids.  I was so confused and wanted to stay in denial because the truth of that hurts so much. 

The point made earlier about how it could be done to just setup the triangle to make the BPD the victim was enlightening to me.  I found myself taking this so personal, but considering they operate from the self centered universe, it makes alot of sense the behaviors are done for their benefit. 

I made the decision to remove myself from the near orbit of the family.  We have kids, so we are still interacting and making decisions together.  It really stinks and the loss hurts.  I tried as hard as I could to make a marriage work to keep an intact family and standing up for me and the kids made it worse.  Cue the triangle.  I defend me or them and then I am persecutor and she is back to victim and I go rescuer to protect the kids.  I decided to divorce on the hope that removing me from the triangle would reduce some of the conflict.  According to the kids, they tell me it was stressful to see the fighting and it is better now.  I still worry about what she says to them about me, but I never could control that. 

The communication system is dysfunctional and I never saw it change.  I at one point took her aside and said to stop fighting with me infront of the kids.  She wouldn't argue in private with me and instead avoided me.  Her response was "Why would I do that?  It would only help you."
   

She is never going to stand up for you.  She might even find your kids abuse of you rewarding.

I saw a look in my wife's face once when my youngest yelled at me.  She smiled.  She would get angry with me if I didn't back her up if the kids were rightfully angry with her.  I would back the kids and I was accused of not supporting her or being a lax parent.  You will have to build the skill of validating yourself that you are doing a job and not listen to the criticism. 

I’m sorry if I sound harsh but I’m speaking to you as a child who suffered through abuse and dysfunction. One aggressive parent and one passive parent made me feel like I deserved it.  When I had my own kids I stood up for them.  This led to going nc with both my parents, but I was honest with my kids at the time which minimized the longterm damage. My kids were and now we are very close

That sounds awful and I wish that wasn't your childhood.  I really appreciate you sharing your experiences.  The kids of BPD parents on this board really seem to have it more together than the significant others that post on the relationship boards.  They had no choice and are confused why we stayed, didn't defend ourselves or them.  The best reason I can tell the kids is that the BPD parent threatens nuclear bombs about taking the kids, maligning you and the non-BPD just wants it to be better.  As my therapist asked me.  When will you know you have tried hard enough.  My answer was:  "It sounds ridiculous, but things would be better."  If it is ridiculous, when will you know you have tried enough. 

So my divorce was awful, but not as bad as what I have read elsewhere.  My uexBPDw is high functioning too.  It took me close to a year, but there were not threats of child abuse, police or other.  I will say now that the divorce is over, I sense the fight is not over and the battle over the kids is still on the table.  The benefit of the co-parenting/custody agreement is written and enforceable parenting boundaries.  Mine will get angry, and project her anger back onto me, but backs off with the help of the agreement.  She still triangulates the kids into adult arguments.  Children of BPD parents, what would have been best for you then?  I try to validate that it is awful to be put in the middle and that they shouldn't have to deal with that. 

You will trade off the ability to protect the kids every day for the ability to protect them with the legal system.  I will say that I wasn't healthy enough to keep the correct boundaries in place at home.  I was run by fear and anxiety.  Now that I am outside, I can choose when to respond and do so when I am grounded.  It was an awful weapon, but it felt like she knew when I was vulnerable and then would demand what ever she wanted then. 

[GaGrl]

I'll just say that now is the time to have a strategy in place. By the time my husband's three children were teens, they were all (individually, and sometimes together) asking him why he didn't divorce their mother.

He let a lot run off like water off a duck's back, but the children saw that, and there was a loss of respect.

Our marriage is exceptionally strong, and he has regained his children's respect. They are older and have wrestled with their own relationships -- that helps -- but they still need occasional coaching regarding how they deal with their disordered mother.

[Couscous]

She wouldn't argue in private with me and instead avoided me.  Her response was "Why would I do that?  It would only help you."
    
I saw a look in my wife's face once when my youngest yelled at me.  She smiled.

So these kinds of things are not BPD behaviors.

Lately I have begun seriously questioning if there is really such a thing as “uBPD” and if the majority of people who post here are really dealing with a relative/spouse who is afflicted with some other personality disorder, but who may perhaps have a few BPD traits. Usually people afflicted with BPD are in so much emotional pain that they get into relatively early in life.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So these kinds of things are not BPD behaviors.

Lately I have begun seriously questioning if there is really such a thing as “uBPD” and if the majority of people who post here are really dealing with a relative/spouse who is afflicted with some other personality disorder, but who may perhaps have a few BPD traits. Usually people afflicted with BPD are in so much emotional pain that they get into relatively early in life.

They are not BPD per say, but a person with BPD can certainly exhibit them, just like nons can. We are all multi-faced, in a sense.

My mother seemed happy when I was fighting with my father, this was the best way to get love from her... If I portrayed my father as a persecutor, she would be compelled to show me love, and part of her beneficiated from the fight.

To this day, she will still put oil on the fire whenever my brother talks about our father or stepbrother. I learned, at some point, never to discuss my relationship with my father with her. She was always resentful of him leaving her, she could never heal from this abandonment and she kept on trying to hurt him again and again by using us. It was also a way for her to ensure we would choose her against him. Loving our father equated us abandoning her, hence her encouraging us being angry at him, it was then easier for her to enmesh us to her.

I think we have to be careful when we label what is and isn't BPD behaviors and others PD. Just like nons, pwBPD vary immensely from one to another and through their life, have all learned various and different tools to manage their disease. One of those tools is triangulation. I believe that for some pwBPD, developing narcissistic traits over time also helps them manage their hurt.

Another one I realized recently is linked to the hermit facet of the BPD. My mother "moves away" from us. Overtime, she moved from city to city, further and further away from where we were born, and from where one my brothers still lives with his children. I do believe this is a way for her to tolerate her pain...if we are in a different city, the fact that we don't see her feels less personal, and it hurts her less. it doesn't keep her from being triggered entirely, but it did improve her behavior to be away from us for quite some time... This is one of the many ways she developped to manage her unbearable emotional pain... Amongst screaming, demanding, triangulating and abusing.

I suspect another pwBPD would be different, as the tools they come up with in life will vary... Which is likely way caught early, BPD can be managed, because they are taught working tools.the later they enter therapy, the hardest it becomes to override what they learned by themselves...

Just some thoughts.

[Couscous]

Oops, just noticed a typo in my last post.

I meant to say BPDs get into therapy relatively early in life.
 

[ZeroSumGames]

So these kinds of things are not BPD behaviors.

Lately I have begun seriously questioning if there is really such a thing as “uBPD” and if the majority of people who post here are really dealing with a relative/spouse who is afflicted with some other personality disorder, but who may perhaps have a few BPD traits. Usually people afflicted with BPD are in so much emotional pain that they get into relatively early in life.

I agree with you.  They feel more antisocial.  There were arguments towards the end when she said I was a sociopath.  It really seems like there is an entire grab bag of behaviors/coping mechanisms that help them feel better and they require other people.  Learning about BPD and the label was validating to me in the beginning.  Now I am just grateful to understand a little more and know that it is mostly a reflection of her reacting to fear and not about me.  My ex is who she is and generally functions pretty well.  Just don't get too close or too far away and certainly don't abandon her.  

Now that I have done that, she is pulling out what she can to keep the kids closer to her because the thought of losing them scares her.  She is in therapy now and I hope that helps her relationship with the kids.  

I enabled her behavior for years in hopes of it getting better, so that I could feel better.  This isn't a healthy thing to do and it really didn't work either.  Therapy for myself, learning to trust my thoughts and feelings, learning about emotional boundaries, and learning what a loving relationship actually is helped me.  It also created loss and grief for all of us in the family.  I am just trying to make a safe space for them now and creating a support system.  

[Riv3rW0lf]

I meant to say BPDs get into therapy relatively early in life.
 

I actually think those might be C-PTSD, and that real BPD try to steer clear of therapy for as long as they can. My mother once told me she doesn't want to try therapy because she is scared of the pain it would trigger. I believe she is also terrified of facing her inner shame and feelings of worthlessness, that she worries the therapist would see her for what she thinks she is. BPD is a tragedy.

She did stop drinking with AA, which taught her the 12-steps, and I do think it helped her, the abuse became neglect .. But she relapsed when she stopped going. She attended meetings for about 5 years if I remember right...

[Couscous]

She is in therapy now and I hope that helps her relationship with the kids.  

Wow, that’s great that she’s decided to go to therapy. It just goes to show what can happen when people stop enabling.

Even before I knew anything about codependency or enabling I figured out that the enablers in my family were actually the ones responsible for perpetuating the family dysfunction and doing a whole lot of harm to the people they purport to love. It’s very sad.

[Notwendy]

2 of 3- Your post describes what I went through. I could repeat the same thing you did.



One aggressive parent and one passive parent made me feel like I deserved it.  When I had my own kids I stood up for them.  

Yes, and while I didn't choose NC with my parents- standing up for my own kids ( with them) and standing up for myself ( as there was continued verbal abuse from them) lead to them discarding the relationship with me. I am now LC with widowed BPD mother.

My advice to parents always is that parenting is the long game.  You need to decide what type of relationship you want with your kids in twenty years and start working towards that today while you still have the ability to make decisions and time with them.  

This is true. Young children don't have the choice to be in a relationship with a parent. They also naturally love a parent, even an abusive one. It's survival for them. A parent has control over a child and this is important for their well being. You don't let children just run amok and do what they want but as they grow as individuals, a parent has to make room for the child to be their own person and develop their own self determination.

However, adult children have choices and building a long term relationship with a child takes more than controlling them. BPD mother controlled us with fear and my father, as rescuer, would align with her on this. He was the more loving and stable parent, but that also was conditional on us being compliant with BPD mother, even with cruel and unreasonable demands. While I felt bonded to him, and I loved him, fear and feeling unworthy also was a part of this.