Losing my mind? Did that actually happen?

[hurtingbad]

Good Morning All,
I'm starting to seriously think I'm losing my mind and/or memory.  I've felt this way in the past when my uBPDh would bring up something from a week/month ago that I didn't remember the same way he did, but last night was in a span of maybe 10 minutes.

Everything had been good for almost a week, and we had a terrific weekend...until last night.  This is what I remember.  His parents had been over for dinner and had just left.  We went to the kitchen and I started water for tea and was putting a couple dishes away.  He was closing the garage door with the remote in the house and said, "You must have something in the way because the door isn't closing," so I said I'd go out and check.  When I came back in, he had poured the water for his tea and I started my coffee, then I left the kitchen again to put something away in another part of the house.  When I came back, I could tell he was upset by his look.   

The argument that followed has me questioning my sanity.  He said that I knew he hadn't eaten much of his dinner and he had asked me twice while we were in the kitchen to make him a grilled cheese sandwich.  The first time I just blew him off and the second time, I made a joke about it and walked out of the kitchen laughing.  That I had actually walked around him because he was standing right in front of me.  He never said what he or I actually said, but stated that I always want him to beg for things (he says that a lot) and he wasn't going to beg, so he just heated something himself in the microwave. 

I have made him something to eat later in the evening if he didn't each much dinner and I have no problem doing that, so I don't know why I would have blown him off or made a joke.  I honestly have no recollection of that part of the conversation...and all of this happened in about 10 minutes.

Question(s):  Did he make it all up to make me think I'm losing my mind?  Would a pwBPD do that just to be able fight about it?  Did it all actually happen and I have no memory of it?  Was I maybe thinking about something and didn't hear him ask (twice)?  But then also made a joke about it and don't remember that either?

He was so adamant that all of this actually happened, that I was getting, and still am, extremely concerned about my cognitive function.  How could I honestly not remember something that happened 5 minutes ago?

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[Gemsforeyes]

Hi HB-

I believe I can assure you that he didn’t say it.  He may have thought he did, and he may have wanted to tell you he wanted a grilled cheese sandwich, but he didn’t tell you.  He did NOT.  This time and this time alone, you can say, if you want to de-escalate things, that your mind was busy getting the house straight after the dinner gathering so you could relax together...and you’re sorry, but you simply didn’t hear him.  Throw a little honey or babe in there if you’d like.  There is a difference between that and when he purposely tries to “catch” you in a real mistake you know you did not make.  One that he actually made and will not own up to.

You can also ask him that if he sees you focusing or moving from one room to another and he needs something, to please be sure that you’re looking straight at him and acknowledging what he’s asking for - that your mind gets “busy” when you’re trying to finish tasks for the night.  Something like that, maybe?

I’m guessing here, my friend.  I lived in a state of what I describe as anticipation with both my exH and my exBF, for a total of 25.5 years.  Both of those men tried what your H is doing.  To “catch” me in mistakes.  The problem was that I have (well HAD) and incredible memory.  The last one my exBF tried was so pathetic (I had undeniable proof) that I decided I couldn’t do this any longer.  It made me realize that Gaslighting is a real thing and takes forethought.  It’s not an innocent action.

Eyes open when dealing with disordered individuals.  I’m sorry.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[hurtingbad]

Thank you for your reply, Gemsforeyes.

It helps to know that even though you weren't there, you don't think I'm losing my mind.  Sometimes (a lot of times! ) my mind is "busy" and I don't completely hear him, but I just don't remember any of what he said happened last night.  (My memory is not so good anymore either...if I don't do things right that minute or write it down for later, odds are whatever it was isn't going to happen)  Maybe, because he knows this, he knows that I will question my sanity about the situation rather than confront him on it? 

I was thinking I had some sort of black out that made me have no recollection of those events.  He kept saying I was acting like it never happened, when I actually could not remember, and that was scaring me.  He also asked if I thought he just made this all up in his head?  (I was hoping that was it, although I'd never say it, otherwise my mind is gone!) 

When I do tell him I didn't hear him (and I did do that last night...SEVERAL times) he says I never listen   And he said I was looking right at him, made a joke about it and walked out of the kitchen(?)

I've been trying to use the lessons I've learned here (S.E.T., validation, etc) but it never seems to work.  I don't know if I'm not doing these things right, or if he just knows what I'm trying to do and tells me my "psychiatrist tricks" will not work.  Of course, I couldn't use much of it last night because I was desperately trying to remember, or figure out what was wrong with me.  I can't validate his feelings if I don't even remember it happening.
 

[Couscous]

Are you familiar with the film called Gaslight? It’s about a man who systematically did things in order for his wife to think she was losing her mind so that he could have her committed, and then steal her inheritance.

I’m not sure what you H’s motives are, but he is literally ‘gaslighting’ you. Gaslighting is a tactic commonly use by abusers.

I’m also wondering why he can’t make himself a sandwich...

[waverider]

The fact that it is something you wouldnt have done is really the key to knowing it wasnt something you just forgot. There is no reason for it to be true.

pwBPD although at times seem to have almost photographic memory, sometimes it mixes up what they wanted to say, but instead of saying it, just thought it. They will still state with absolute conviction that they said it. Doubting themselves as to whether they did or not does not fall within there black and white thinking. If as a consequence they felt rejected, they will embellish it, as that is what they do

I am sure sometimes you mean to ask somebody something, but cant completely remember whether you did or not. pwBPD dont have this conundrum they either believe they did or they didn't, there is no maybe.

[hurtingbad]

They will still state with absolute conviction that they said it..

He kept saying stuff like...so you're saying it never happened and I just made this all up in my head?  I was thinking "yes...I think/hope you did" but I didn't say it!  There have been times when I've told him maybe you "thought" you said something, but you didn't say it out loud, and all was ok, but he was SO adamant, I was getting confused and scared something was wrong with me.

I do have the tendency to get "angry back" after awhile, but I'm really trying hard to stop that and try use what I'm learning here.  I definitely need more practice, but I had no idea what to do in this situation.
How do you respond to something like this?

I’m also wondering why he can’t make himself a sandwich...

When I get mad, I think the same thing, but our relationship has always been...for lack of a better term..."old fashioned".  I've always cooked, done laundry, etc (like my mom did) and have no problem with that.  He can/will do these things on the odd occasion that I'm not there, but otherwise it's me.

I honestly don't think he is "gaslighting"; at least, for any nefarious purposes.  He is disabled, so he would not make it financially without me.  He would not benefit from me being out of the picture.

[thankful person]

I am extremely familiar with situations such as this, and feeling responsible when my wife doesn’t eat because she “doesn’t know what she wants” even though I offer to go get food…

The first few years of our relationship, I was constantly arguing with bpdw  to insist that I knew she was incorrect about what she claimed she or I had said. I now realise how futile this was, and my giving up those arguments has created a much more peaceful environment.

I did used to wonder about gaslighting, was my wife doing and saying these things to hurt me? I now think gaslighting can (and often does) mean that it is the perpetrator that is deluded, and like others suggested, your husband probably really did believe what he said. My wife also says I don’t listen, and I am the type of person who can’t concentrate on more than one thing at once… However, I know that I do acknowledge things I do hear. But sometimes she’d be like, I love cheese sandwiches or something, and I miss the underlying request to make her one immediately.

I don’t think your husband was trying to hurt you. But realising how delusional bpd is, and much of it is created purely by paranoia, it has helped me to let such things go without making it a big deal.

[hurtingbad]

But sometimes she’d be like, I love cheese sandwiches or something, and I miss the underlying request to make her one immediately.

This is something I miss a lot too.  Little "hints" that I'm supposed to pick up on and do something about.  But he usually doesn't mention it immediately.  He'll say something like "A few days ago, I told you I didn't eat much for dinner but you didn't even offer to make me anything."  At that point, I can't remember what happened a few days ago.  How were you able to give up these arguments?  He just keeps talking and asking questions.

Another thing...I do forget things and I do hate that about me, but when I forget something for him, he immediately thinks I'm doing it on purpose or punishing him for something.  Then sometimes, and this is almost worse, I get..."I'm not mad, just really disappointed..."

[Jabberwocky]

Another thing...I do forget things and I do hate that about me, but when I forget something for him, he immediately thinks I'm doing it on purpose or punishing him for something.  Then sometimes, and this is almost worse, I get..."I'm not mad, just really disappointed..."

I forget things too.  I probably have ADHD, which doesn't work well in these scenarios.  Or those where my uBPDw is looking for praise for something that she did.  I don't have a lot of time to notice something after I come in the door before she comments that I don't appreciate what she did.

That said, I have decided to go into counseling for myself, between my ADHD and my depression, I think that I getting myself in order is going to be better for me to be able to support her. 

And honestly my new understanding of what she may be struggling with seems to have changed something with in me.  It is so much better to know that she is struggling with mental illness than that she is just acting bitchy.

[thankful person]

How were you able to give up these arguments?  He just keeps talking and asking questions.

Hurting, I am also so forgetful, like I remember if someone reminds me they said something, but I forget things all the time. I feel like I remember 100 things and forget 1. So I do relate.

My wife has become more sane since I changed the way I treat her and respond to her. And my expectations of her have changed. I understand that you want to take care of your husband and make him happy. I was the same… but often failing to please bpdw who didn’t seem to recognise how hard I tried. I’m not an expert at all this which is why I’m sharing my own experience, but hopefully it might help.

Your story did remind me of my 2 year old, who often has an evening snack when she doesn’t eat much dinner. People can judge my parenting, whatever… But what we do is leave healthy snacks within her reach. And she helps herself. She is learning to be independent. My wife’s mother was the opposite. My wife was never allowed in the kitchen and I feel that’s why she felt she couldn’t do anything. Her mother made her bed every day and tidied her bedroom for her up until she met me at age 21. Even when she had a severe eating disorder, I was on video call with her one evening. She hadn’t eaten all day. I finally convinced her to go and make some food. And her mother told her no. (And yes she did know about the diagnosed eating disorder).

It’s important to try and recognise caretaking behaviours, where your actions could actually prevent your husband from developing his own skills and confidence and autonomy. It was a long journey with my wife… but with me putting down boundaries and expecting her to behave more like an adult and do things for herself… she actually has grown up quite a lot.

Things regularly happen now where I think.. “she never would have allowed this in the past”, like me saying my friend is coming round to drop off some cash from work. No reaction. It used to be absolutely forbidden to tell anyone except family our address, in case they turned up unannounced. It was awkward at times. I’m not nervous about much these days.

Try not to allow things to go round in circles. “I must have not heard you” I would say in attempt to close the conversation. Validate his disappointment or whatever. I often remind my wife that if she wants something she needs to be specific and check that I have heard (I also have poor hearing) and processed what she said.

[Couscous]

But sometimes she’d be like, I love cheese sandwiches or something, and I miss the underlying request to make her one immediately.

It’s not remotely normal for someone to have an expectation that his/her spouse will cater to him/her to this extent.

Believe it or not, caretaking, or compulsive helping/rescuing is actually covertly controlling and is a form of manipulation. Personally, I have begun attending Al-Anon in order to overcome this very ingrained behavior in myself.

In this article the author goes as far as saying that caretaking is self-serving and a strange kind of narcissism: https://justmind.org/when-caretaking-becomes-unhealthy-equilibrium/

[Justapotato]

Sounds very familiar but one thing that has stood out to me is the fact his parents had just left. Do you know much about the history of his bpd? Sounds like something that happened when they were there may have triggered him and he’s just become a bit disregulated. When that happens with my bf he becomes very unreasonable for seemingly no reason, turns out a tiny misunderstood comment has left him feeling insecure or threatened and he loses touch with reality a little. Luckily he’s at a good level of understanding of himself now so I remind him that he’s being unreasonable and try and think what it might be that has triggered him, then he goes away to think about it and comes round on his own.

Providing there’s no alcohol involved otherwise that’s when things get ugly… more than likely he heard something that made him sensitive and when you did something minor (probably didn’t even hear him) you that gets blown out of proportion as a vent for his frustrations. Seems they like to find a reason to blame their feelings on, without any care whether it’s the correct reason. But almost guaranteed, you are not losing your mind! Poor thing, hope you’re ok.

[hurtingbad]

Thank you so much for all the replies    I'll try to be brief, but I do want to touch on some things...
(ok...I'm apologizing in advance for how long this got!  )

Jabberwocky,
I do think about the mental illness part of this each time he gets this way, but it's just so hard.  I'd been dealing with this for about 25 years or so before I even looked for or found this site, so I'm pretty burned out.  The first part of me thinks, he's ill...use S.E.T. and validate and get through this, and another part of me thinks, why is my h acting like a teenage girl?

J and Thankful,
Regarding being forgetful, it happened again yesterday.  When getting ready for work in the morning I close our bedroom door so as not to wake h while making coffee, etc in the next room.  About a month or so ago, he said he would like the door left open when I leave (so our cats can get in), but I forgot...again.  This was the second time, but both in a week.  And on the same day of the week, apparently (he knows because "he has nothing else to do").  He texted me when he woke up about the door being closed, I apologized, and thought we were good, but it continued when I got home.  He was a mess all day.  He doesn't understand how I can forget to open a door that I just closed 30 minutes earlier.  And on the same day as last week.  (Frankly, I don't know how I forgot either because I had looked at it 5 minutes before I left and told myself to open it!)  I swear, if I don't do something right when I'm thinking about it, there's a REALLY good chance it won't happen  
He immediately thinks there is something/someone more important that I am thinking about, otherwise I'd be thinking about him.
I did make a change this morning though.  I figured if I left my purse on my dresser in the bedroom, then I'll have to open the bedroom door to get it before I leave  
I also downloaded a "find the differences in the pictures" game this morning.  I'm hoping that will help me notice things that are out of place, for two reasons...so I remember to put them back (or open the damn door), and to notice things my h did during the day before he has to tell me!

It’s not remotely normal for someone to have an expectation that his/her spouse will cater to him/her to this extent.

Believe it or not, caretaking, or compulsive helping/rescuing is actually covertly controlling and is a form of manipulation. Personally, I have begun attending Al-Anon in order to overcome this very ingrained behavior in myself.

In this article the author goes as far as saying that caretaking is self-serving and a strange kind of narcissism: https://justmind.org/when-caretaking-becomes-unhealthy-equilibrium/

I agree that the expectations are not normal, but who here is dealing with normal?  I understand that I "care" therefore I do, and I "do" too much.  
Thank you so much for the article.  I will definitely be re-reading it and also searching inward, but...unless I'm in denial, I don't think I do any of these things for MY benefit.  Some of the things mentioned fit me, but many also do not.  
We have been married for 32 years, but in previous relationships, I've never been accused of being controlling, or anything like that.  I actually had one Ex want to take a break for awhile.  Because it seemed out of the blue, I asked why and he said, "well...one thing is, we never argue."  
When I do something, it's just to be helpful, but when it is appreciated by my h, if I don't continue to do it, he gets all worked up and says something like, "I told you I appreciated you doing that, but you didn't keep doing it", so...I keep doing it.  Then, as above, if I ever "forget" to do whatever, there's a huge "why", and "what/who's more important that made you forget...you don't just forget".  It seems I may find myself in a catch22.  

Sounds very familiar but one thing that has stood out to me is the fact his parents had just left.

Providing there’s no alcohol involved otherwise that’s when things get ugly

Pretty good observation that I had not considered!  (I always believe it's me when he's upset with me)  His parents have been coming for dinner every Sunday for years.  As much as I can diagnose, which I can't, I believe his issues stem from his early childhood relationship with his mom, for the most part.  There is also a history of mental illness on that side, diagnosed and not.  (great grandmother was paranoid schizophrenic)  Of course, there was no mention of this before we were married!  
He does tend to work himself up talking about his mom almost every week before they ever come over.  It's very possible that something that was said, or just a feeling that he had could have caused this.
A couple times when he's had a bad visit with them or is upset with one or the other of them for something, I've mentioned cancelling the weekly dinner...maybe once or twice a month instead.  He always says no...he'll get over it...he likes having them over.
And, sadly, there is always alcohol involved  

[Cat Familiar]

From reading your thread, it seems that there are some dynamics in place that have probably existed for a long time. How disabled is he? Can he do much for himself?

It seems that he holds you to an extremely high standard, most likely one he does not apply to his own behavior.

That you forget occasionally is human nature—everybody does this. But that he uses it as ammunition to say you don’t care about him is telling.

Have you heard about FOG? (Fear Obligation Guilt)  If you can get out of that trap, you can respond in real time to some of these chiding remarks and regain some of the self esteem he has successfully undermined over the course of your relationship. He is likely to respect you more if you honor yourself and refuse to be humbled by his complaints.

[15years]

Do you desperately hope for you and your H to understand each other... Be on the same page about things...?

If you have different views on an event, you notice pretty quickly that he will not change his view of what happened, so you try to question your own version of the event instead, that's why you're ruminating about your memory... I don't think there's anything wrong with your memory.

I used to make an effort to understand my wife's view of things and in doing so I started to undermine my own. If was able to do that, it was a relief for a while. Being the "dumb one" was a relief compared to us not being on the same page, and I looked up to my disordered wife as the emotional leader.


How would it work for you to simply try to accept that you two have different views of an event? Accept that his version might be disordered, and accept that you cannot change his view. Accept that you cannot remember/register everything and accept that this will provoke your H for the rest of his life. Use your anger to never again ruminate about your capacity to remember and or pay attention. Your probably doing more then your best already.


That story about leaving or not leaving the door open is INSANE. Don't engage in the matter. IF he want's the door to stay open, leave it open, but it's not a life or death mistake if you for some reason didn't.



This is also a reminder to myself because I also struggle!

[Protectourfamily]

I have learned from the psychiatrist working with my uBPDH and myself that the stress of living with H can actually trigger symptoms similar to ADHD in my thoughts and behavior. (He told this to me in a private consultation, without H present. BTW--my H also freaks out about doors, if I leave the bedroom door open once while he is in bed for 3 days with strep, then his entire illness becomes "my fault.")
So yes, you may be forgetting to open or close the door, but I think it may be because you are living with a form of PTSD from the pressure of what may happen if you do or don't close it.
Does that make any sense?
I

[Justapotato]

Have you ever tried to talk to him about where his bpd may have come from? Or does he not like to openly discuss/admit it? Now that I understand my bfs childhood and why he is the way he is I can normally put the behaviour and the trigger together, and explain it to him so he understands it’s just his head gone funny.

But yeah when the alcohol comes out the brakes come off and it gets a lot harder. In which case I either diffuse the situation til the morning when he can think clearly about it, or if I’m drunk too it can escalate very quickly… but it’s something we are working on. I think maybe just try and get to the root of his bpd first then you can understand what it is that has set him off a little better. It still might make no sense to your brain but will help for next time. And talking it though with him helps him to understand that the feelings he had could be dealt with another way.

[Jabberwocky]

Jabberwocky,
I do think about the mental illness part of this each time he gets this way, but it's just so hard.  I'd been dealing with this for about 25 years or so before I even looked for or found this site, so I'm pretty burned out.  The first part of me thinks, he's ill...use S.E.T. and validate and get through this, and another part of me thinks, why is my h acting like a teenage girl?

I get that.  It's been about 30 years for me.  Before I found this site though, all I had was "Why is she acting like a teenage girl", or worse yet, "This is just normal".

[Couscous]

I highly recommend the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.

[SaltyDawg]

I highly recommend the book Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.

I 2nd that.  It is an eye opener.  Our local library has both paper and audio book versions.

[hurtingbad]

How disabled is he? Can he do much for himself?

He is not completely disabled, but had severe ankle and knee injuries (among other less severe injuries) from a car wreck in 2005, so now deals with chronic pain.  He can do things, but is limited on how far he can walk, how strenuous it is, weight limits, things like that.  He over does it a lot, which makes the pain worse.  He also has trouble sleeping because of this and tells me most days he wishes he just wouldn't wake up.  I know his pain affects his mood, as it can for anybody.  He also feels like "less of a person" because of the things he can no longer do.  None of this is helpful to the situation, but it is what it is. 

I have been reading about FOG again.  I do fear what he'll be mad about next...and when.  It seems everything is going fine and then out of nowhere, something little sets him off   Of course, he doesn't think it's little.   So, yes...I would agree that it could be considered a form of PTSD...and it sucks, by the way

There was another issue Saturday evening, even less important than the door earlier in the week.

He brought it up and we were talking about it yesterday when he was "normal".  He says he can sometimes be a d!ck and hates that he yells at me, but sometimes can't help it.  He doesn't know why I've stayed with him so long.
I asked him if there was anything I could do or say when this happens that would let him know he's being that way...maybe like a safe word .  He looked at me and said, yeah...stop doing things that piss me off.  Well...that's easier said than done!  He had a tone that this might be going in the wrong direction, so I just changed the subject (it was his birthday and he had also been drinking, so I felt that was better

I will definitely look into getting a copy of Stop Caretaking...  I just hope that's something I can do a little at a time without him thinking I am thinking of someone else.

I certainly appreciate all of your helpful comments and suggestions!  Since he has no idea I have ever looked into what his actual issues might be, let alone that I am on this site, I can only respond when I'm at work.  (I know...not good, but at least I have a job where I can read/post in between projects!)  I'll be off the rest of this week, so I'm on my own now until Monday.  Y'all have been a Godsend.  Just to know there are people out there somewhere who understand, makes me not feel so alone.   

[Couscous]

Hi hurtingbad,

I hope you had a peaceful weekend.

After reading your last post I am not so sure anymore that the Stop Caretaking book is the best choice for you as some of your H's behaviors are a bit concerning, especially what he said about wanting you to stop pissing him off, which has a bit of a threatening ring to it. Because of that comment I'm thinking that it may be prudent for you to hold back a little with some, or all, of the changes you have been making since he doesn't seem to be responding well to any of it.

I would encourage you to check out this website and perhaps even call and speak to one of the counselors so that you can get some additional perspective: https://www.thehotline.org/identify-abuse/understand-relationship-abuse/ (You don't have to be experiencing physical violence in order to talk to someone.)

You could also take a look at the book, Why Does He Do That? https://ia600108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf

[AaZz]

I can confirm this does indeed happen.  It is very scary.  And confusing.  And  it does make you feel like you are going crazy.  It was one of the main characteristics of my relationship with my bpd wife in the height of our most difficult years, before I had ever heard of bpd or had any clue what was going on.  

Sometimes it would happen after long gaps (3 weeks ago you said xyz).  That was frustrating.  Sometimes it was immediate (in your last sentence you just said xyz). THAT was always terrifying.  Almost always this alternate narrative was  directed toward me / revolved around me — me being her primary target of paranoia and victimhood.  The only thing that kept/keeps me sane is the small handful of other times I witnessed her do it to someone else.

One time my my daughter asked “Oh, are we having pizza tonight?”  And my wife threw the tray down and shouted, “That’s it! I can’t take it any more! I’m already struggling to do everything around here, and now D says ‘I can’t believe mom hasn’t gone shopping yet!’ “  She LITERALLY heard my daughter say something completely different.  D had just been just talking out loud, not even to my wife, had No problem with pizza, and only said it because she had just had pizza at a friends house the night before.  But my wife’s mind was in a different place, and she heard an attack instead.  Not just taking her words AS an attack.  But literally heard different words.

This is where I don’t know if Gaslighting applies or not.  If I understand correctly, true gaslighting is intentional, deliberate.  The gaslighter knows exactly what they are doing.  With my bpd wife, I honestly believe she experiences a different reality - I mean, she’s not going to convince us in real time that D said something that D did not.  A whole room heard it.

Now, having  said that, the effects on the person on the receiving end are EXACTLY the same as if it were true gaslighting.  So from our end, the distinction doesn’t matter.  Whether alternate narratives are intentional or not, in both cases it is crazy-making, frustrating, confusing, deeply painful, infuriating, lonely, it feels despairing, hopeless.  Perhaps there is a pinch of help knowing the creation of all these feelings is not intentional?  But those feelings are all still there nonetheless.

My way of dealing with it is to find what I can honestly validate.  Never validating the invalid (Never “I’m sorry I said that”).  But rather something like: “I see that you are really hurt right now.  I can understand that.  That makes sense to me.  I too would be hurt if someone belittled and mocked me.  I am committed to working to make sure I don’t do that in the future, and I am so sorry for the hurt you are feeling now.”  In saying this, I never admitted wrongdoing.  Yet she feels understood - she is not alone in her pain.  I am with her in understanding her feelings.  But it is SO hard to learn how to do that.  And it feels like lying.  And it IS very lonely, because while she is validated and understood, I am not.  But I have to have radical acceptance that I am just not going to ever find that from her.  But I can find it elsewhere.  I can find understanding and encouragement in places like here in this forum.

[hurtingbad]

[

Hi hurtingbad,

I hope you had a peaceful weekend.

After reading your last post I am not so sure anymore that the Stop Caretaking book is the best choice for you as some of your H's behaviors are a bit concerning, especially what he said about wanting you to stop pissing him off, which has a bit of a threatening ring to it. Because of that comment I'm thinking that it may be prudent for you to hold back a little with some, or all, of the changes you have been making since he doesn't seem to be responding well to any of it.

I would encourage you to check out this website and perhaps even call and speak to one of the counselors so that you can get some additional perspective: https://www.thehotline.org/identify-abuse/understand-relationship-abuse/ (You don't have to be experiencing physical violence in order to talk to someone.)

You could also take a look at the book, Why Does He Do That? https://ia600108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf

Hi,
I'm back!  Our stay-cation was perfect.  We had a great time with no arguments in what...6 days!  But...the day I returned to work I did something again.  I don't even remember what it was now.  And a couple more things in the days that followed   I just can't get anything right, or keep my mouth shut when something just did not need to be said (that I also didn't know would be an issue when I do say it).

Couscous,
I heard what you said about him possibly just being abusive rather than uBPD.  Since I read your post, I've been reading "Why Does He Do That?"  To be honest, some of that rings true as well, but wouldn't anyone being yelled at several times a week be considered to be in an abusive relationship?  I'm not sure I'm understanding the difference.  Is he just an abuser, or could he have BPD or some other form of mental illness, or both?  There's no way I'll ever know for sure as he will never see a therapist.  And I wouldn't be able to either, because there's no way I could keep that secret.  I agree that none of the things I'm trying to learn here (SET, etc) are working.  They just make him accuse me of trying to be a therapist, or he just tells me that I don't and never will understand.

He says that most things I do (or don't do), really bother him because he believes I don't care.  If I cared, I would have (or wouldn't have) done it, or said it, or asked about it...He says he's hurt or disappointed, (but he always shows it with anger) and tells me I don't understand the difference.  Like when I forgot to open the bedroom door...he would say if I cared that he asked me to leave it open, or that the cats wouldn't be locked out of the room, then I wouldn't "forget" to leave it open.  He also seems to remember everything, so doesn't understand how/why I forget so much.  I don't understand it either, though, so I have no argument there!   I just know that I do and I hate it.  Maybe I can blame it on menopause! 

My way of dealing with it is to find what I can honestly validate.  Never validating the invalid (Never “I’m sorry I said that”).  But rather something like: “I see that you are really hurt right now.  I can understand that.  That makes sense to me.  I too would be hurt if someone belittled and mocked me.  I am committed to working to make sure I don’t do that in the future, and I am so sorry for the hurt you are feeling now.”

The problem I'm still having is finding something I can validate.  The things that set him off, or the things he says are so...alien(?) to me.  I've never known anyone else to be this way and even though we've been married 32 years, it still doesn't make any sense to me   I can understand that there is a mental issue, but understanding how that works, or what he's thinking/feeling compared with "normal"...I guess sometimes I just don't understand at all.  When I say something like you've said, he just tells me I'm just saying that, or no I don't understand anything.  Then, when he's not raging and is somewhat normal, he apologizes for all of this crap.  Says he's just in a lot of pain and doesn't mean to take it out on me, blah, blah, blah.  Well then, how about just DON'T?  Then he says he punishes himself (by overworking his legs for example) for being a d!ck to me, which then just makes the pain worse, which sets him off again faster.  Why can't this just go away?

[Couscous]

Glad you’re back!  

As a matter of fact yelling at someone is considered to be a form of verbally abusive behavior. This is true even if the person has a mental illness. The behavior is abusive regardless of the reasons/explanation/motive. Personally, if my husband yelled at me several times a week I would probably be a nervous wreck, in fact, he has never yelled me before.

Personally, validation is also something I never had much success with. My pwBPD seemed to only wanted me to validate his belief that his bad mood was because I was a terrible person. Another interesting strategy I have heard of is called “Agreeing to the charge.” Such as, “You’re right, I guess I am just a self-absorbed, inconsiderate person. How have you put up with me all these years?”

Below is something from the Survivor to Thriver manual I found on the Parent/Sibling board that might be of interest:

Personal Relationships Checklist

Check "Yes" or "No" to each question that applies:

1. Does your partner ever hit you?
2. Does your partner ever force you to have sex?
3. Does your partner verbally abuse or disrespect you
by calling you names, belittling you or threatening you?
4. Does your partner try to restrict whom you spend time with or limit other choices in your life?
5. Does your partner consistently assign unfounded malicious intent to your actions and opinions?
6. Do you find yourself afraid of disagreeing with or opposing your partner?
7. Does this relationship make you feel the way you did as a child?
8. Do you feel dominated or controlled by your partner?

RECOMMENDATIONS: If you are being hit, forced to have sex, or criticized or verbally abused, you must take steps to stop this very real and potentially dangerous pattern. If you are being dominated in one or more destructive ways, you should seek professional help to figure out how to rectify or leave the relationship or insist that your partner get help to eliminate the abusive behavior.

[SilverSwan]

This sounds very familiar. Seriously it could be a scene out of my own life.   I'll tell you a story of my own.
I was in the tub (I was sulking about something that upset me) and my husband comes in and sits down. We chat a little, he asks me why I look sad. I say "you were talking in your sleep and saying horrible things. Im worried. I think we should talk to your counselor".   He starts yelling about how I blame him for everything and how I shouldn't be upset for something he's not responsible for.  I tell him again that its not blame; its that it makes me uncomfortable and I think the therapist should assist.   ... fast forward 30 minutes ... im in the kitchen making breakfast and asked him to stop muttering about the disagreement because it was upsetting me.     He then told me that he knew for a fact that I woke up with a plan to ruin the day. He told me that I burst in on him while he was on the toilet and that I started yelling at him for no reason he said I "carried on like a lunatic". 
 I asked him how he could say that when there is no way I could have busted in on him; because I was actually in the tub.  He insisted I was wrong.  He admitted that I was in the tub when he walked in, but somehow also that I busted into the room yelling.   How can he say i was in two places at once? It makes no sense but he insisted this was somehow the truth!

I'm absolutely horrified that he really believes his rearranging of who did what. We aren't taking about subjective reality.  He often claims that I did the actions that he did.  Its really disturbing to watch.
I often feel like I'm loosing my mind.
I feel like he needs to make me a villian at any cost.
The best thing I can do is to realize that its not about me. There is no thing I'm going to say to fix it.

Honestly your grilled cheese story feels like a scene out of my life. Ive had the grilled cheese conflict.   I often feel like "sheesh, all of this over a *sandwich*. This can't really be about a sandwich or a missed request for a sandwich."

I've realized that its very important not to respond to these events. Emotionally step out of the situation. Do not admit or deny what the bpd is saying.  Ive learned to just say " we can make grilled cheese. Please pass me the cheddar".   Sometimes he will go along. Other times he wants to rage. If he wants to to rage there is nothing to do but let it pass.  I do not make sandwiches in response to rage.

[Couscous]

SilverSwan,

Your comment reminds me of the Queen’s response to Meghan Markel’s and Harry’s accusations: “Recollections may vary.” 

[SaltyDawg]

SilverSwan,

   It sounds like your husband is 'gaslighting' you with 'projection' and 'transference'.  Search Google for "bpd projection and transference" to get more examples.  It is common, my wife does that to me whenever she is not baseline -- blaming me for things she did, and then accuses me of the very behavior that she did to get us to that place.  It does feel like you are loosing your mind by loosing your sense of self - it is not a pleasant feeling.  Once you realize what is happening, you can regain your sense of self.  Document these things (write them down, record them, whatever works for you) so you can see for yourself that you aren't loosing your mind.

   I find it interesting that your hubby talks in his sleep, my wife does the same thing; however, I usually can't make out what she is saying.  Likewise, she also mumbles and mutters under her breath at me, which is upsetting to me as well

   I agree 100% with you on trying to first diffuse the situation by 'stepping out emotionally', but if the splitting turns to rage, I walk/run away from the situation until it calms down -- this irritates her to no end generally this happens in the afternoon/evening, and the day is ruined -- I will regroup and readdress the following day.