Co-parenting: invalidation

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Not me.

Their mom called tonight to talk to the kids. She shared with me that D10 told her that our daughter prefers me more. Why? Because when D10 is upset, mommy tries to make it into a lesson his to manage her emotions and reflect on why she feels that way. D10 told her that "Daddy just comforts me when I'm upset." That upsets D10 even after.

I mentioned to my ex that if she remembered back in the past how she felt when I might have tried that, Invalidating her. She didn't argue, but kind of wrapped up the convo. Maybe I had done just that.  "Kids need validation." "But I'm trying to teach her how to deal with her emotions." 

I'm kind such that she volunteers information that I might not, but it's frustrating that she can't relate to our kid or empathize, despite all of the self help books and therapy (not for BPD), but I guess it isn't surprising.

[Turkish]

Not me.

Their mom called tonight to talk to the kids. She shared with me that D10 told her that our daughter prefers me more. Why? Because when D10 is upset, mommy tries to make it into a lesson his to manage her emotions and reflect on why she feels that way. D10 told her that "Daddy just comforts me when I'm upset." That upsets D10 even after.

I mentioned to my ex that if she remembered back in the past how she felt when I might have tried that, Invalidating her. She didn't argue, but kind of wrapped up the convo. Maybe I had done just that.  "Kids need validation." "But I'm trying to teach her how to deal with her emotions." 

I'm kind such that she volunteers information that I might not, but it's frustrating that she can't relate to our kid or empathize, despite all of the self help books and therapy (not for BPD), but I guess it isn't surprising.

[Gemsforeyes]

First, I think it’s wonderful that your D10 expressed comfort in coming to you when she’s upset.  And it may be a good idea to reinforce your openness to D10 on that topic.  Compassionate parenting is not a competition, but your exW likely doesn’t fully grasp this concept. 

I think you did just fine, Turkish. 

And not to be flippant, but unless your BPDexW has done some intensive therapy, it sounds kind of rich for the disordered parent to be “teaching the lessons” of managing emotions to your beloved child as D10 was in the midst of upset.  It didn’t sound like D10 was having a RAGE episode.  So to me exW’s method sounds like she’s saying something like :  “here kid, read this workbook and cry later when you’re all calmed down.”

You didn’t invalidate your exW on the phone; you told her the truth.  There are times when tiptoeing is inappropriate.  I believe this was one of those times.  And her wrapping up the convo right then, without her flying into a rage may possibly tell you that she actually felt your words.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gems

[Notwendy]

First of all- to all the loving ( imperfect as we all) parents out there who have raised inconsiderate kids who cut contact with them for no reason, what I am about to say is not your fault. Loving parents didn't do this and don't deserve one second of this kind of hurtful thing.

This is for the parents who are too disordered to be loving and validating parents. It's not your fault either. It's probably because you too were not raised by loving and validating and disordered parents. Yet, this kind of thing can be intergenerational if a parent doesn't learn to do things differently.

When children are little, the relationship is a given. They need you, they can't survive without you. You are guaranteed their love and attention. Young children will love even an abusive parent- they are wired to and they want to love you. This gives parents a lot of power. Loving parents don't abuse this power- they want the best for their child.

Older children and adult children don't need a parent to survive. They still love the parent and want the parent to love them. But if the parent can't love them back in a way that is good for them, the relationship can become strained. Children will then gravitate towards the parent with whom they feel safest and more secure.

It was clear early on that for me that was my father and it became obvious that he was the preferred parent. I wanted to love my BPD mother but mostly I was afraid of her. She was unable to be validating. Our relationship became strained.

Being around her FOO, I noticed they are also invalidating. They are less impacted than she is but when I am around them, I feel a bit invisible. They talk about themselves a lot. They may ask questions but they don't hear the answer. I found myself having sympathy for my BPD mother. It must have been tough growing up in this environment. They weren't mean or abusive, but the invalidation was there. She often feels invalidated, even by saying something that wasn't even intentionally invalidating.

It's sad for your ex to not be able to validate the kids. It's also possible she doesn't have the skills to do that- perhaps due to being invalidated in her own FOO. If she were willing to go to therapy and work on this, perhaps it might change but in the meantime, you can do this and it's crucial for the kids that you do. If they gravitate towards you that's a result of the situation. You can't change that and it's not your responsibility to make them feel more positive towards their mother. It's not your fault either. Don't force them to do this and don't diminish how they feel.

[Turkish]

My T long ago observed that my ex respects me. Why not? I'm the dad she never had  

Aside: after her dad recently had a heart attack, she's been connecting with him more and he appreciates it. She's gone farther on the healing journey than her younger sister who moved back into their parents' house. I respect her for that.

I discussed this a few years ago here, that my ex tends to parent by platitude or by book. It's understandable given her often physically absent, abusive serial cheating father and emotionally enmeshing mother. She's limited because they were. I had a dBPD (and other things) mother as well though I resisted enmeshment. Likely being adopted helped me, being detached.

Self-help books, instagramming, Facebooking, posting videos as of she's a life coach... these things help her cope even if it's sometimes cringworthy to me. Like, "tell us you're dysfunctional without telling us you're dysfunctional."

She makes a good effort, but then loses it often with D10 who is a Spitfire. What's sad to me is that her tone for years sounds "this is the way it is." One of my friends who knew us well and liked her once said, "that's the way she thinks: relationships fail."

I'd be willing to join her in a parenting class (again), though I'm not sure hown much would take. Our HMO in Cali is also a mess regarding child Psychiarty.

We'll meet in person tomorrow for S12's 504 plan update. I'll bring it up, even if I'll have to take point. OR, I could toss that ball into her court!

[AskingWhy]

It appears from the beginning that triangulation is taking place.

I don't know what else to say except it's BPD behavior.

[Notwendy]

Turkish- it is what it is- and your ex may not be able to meet this kind of emotional need for your children. Your children are getting older and the parent-child relationship will shift to one that is more adult like. Just as you and your ex had relationship issues- due to her disorder, this impacts all your ex's relationships.

Emotional immaturity and difficulty regulating her emotions may limit her when parenting a soon to be teen, and teen, because they are becoming adults. During early childhood, your ex was still probably emotionally older and so, still felt in charge or control. This changes with teens.

Obviously, teens still need limits, rules, and should behave respectfully to parents but they have higher level reasoning skills. How we interact with them changes. In addition, they feel "out of control" emotionally due to hormonal changes and they need us to have good emotional regulation skills. Teens don't know who they are yet and are trying to figure this out. If the parent has poor emotional regulation skills, this can be a difficult time.

Also confusing. I was expected to have standards of behavior as a teen, but BPD mother could act like an out of control child. Then, she'd expect me to obey her. So here are my parents angry at me and threatening to ground me for some perceived transgression and BPD mother's behavior was out of control.

I recall the moment I felt I was emotionally "older" than my mother. I was about 12.

BPD mother can not validate me because she doesn't know how and her own need for validation is greater. I was parentified as a teen, expected to meet her emotional needs. This was how it is. It didn't help when people tried to smooth this over. "oh don't be silly, your mother loves you" or "she's your mother!" Yes, she's my mother and that is a significant relationship but she's also limited in her ability to have emotionally stable relationships with other people.

Turkish, are you expecting your ex to do better with your kids than she does with you? People had this expectation as if someone the role of "mother" endowed my BPD mother with relationship skills she doesn't have.

Kids, teens, we all need validation. BPD mother very much needs that. So where did I get validation from? My father, his family, teachers at school, counselors. A counselor can help your children understand that it's not personal to them. Their mother is doing the best she can with the skills she has. I think this would have gone a long way to avoid some of the relationship difficulties I had with my BPD mother as a teen- if someone helped me to understand that it was not my fault and even that it wasn't her fault.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I recall the moment I felt I was emotionally "older" than my mother. I was about 12.

Kids, teens, we all need validation. BPD mother very much needs that. So where did I get validation from? My father, his family, teachers at school, counselors. A counselor can help your children understand that it's not personal to them. Their mother is doing the best she can with the skills she has. I think this would have gone a long way to avoid some of the relationship difficulties I had with my BPD mother as a teen- if someone helped me to understand that it was not my fault and even that it wasn't her fault.

That's also the age I had. I have a memory of the first fight when I actually held my position with her, to the point where she got physical. But I was also taller than her at that point, and she had to stop herself. She started feeling small, and that's when she transitionned from witch behavior to waif/queen with me. She went from an abusive mother to a child in the span of one fight when I was 12. Well.. it happened over a continuum but it now feels like this was the breaking point.

I also agree that counseling would have helped. If only to start not fearing her, to understand the disease, to develop the tools to deal with it, and ease the loneliness.

I had to figure it out mostly by myself, so it took a lot of times and detours, and lots of unnecessary pain. And now the damages are too big for me to even speak with her anymore. I things, in the long run, of someone had paid attention and put me in therapy, I might still be in contact now. for better or for worst. 

[kells76]

I'm kind such that she volunteers information that I might not, but it's frustrating that she can't relate to our kid or empathize, despite all of the self help books and therapy (not for BPD), but I guess it isn't surprising.

Do you think she was fishing for something? Support or structure -- someone else to decide things for her?

Like Notwendy said, she is who she is, though in your case, as weird as it sounds, she may be open to a "strong decider" telling her what to do...? That gets tricky because it isn't a way of coparenting that seems healthy or differentiated, but if it is better for your kids that you are direct with their mom... maybe that's the way to go?

I'm kind of 50/50 on it. I also agree with the other posters that at some point, your kids will have more insight into their mom, and at the end of the day, you can't make their mom be anything besides who she wants to be. So you can't be the one pulling and prodding her to be more functional forever.

Yet if you having a non-standard (more authoritarian?) coparenting relationship with her were better for the kids... IDK. She seems more receptive to directives and feedback than a lot of coparents here.

It's a tricky situation.

I wonder if you just do as much as you can on your end with integrity, and that could look like recommending parenting classes, encouraging more counseling, being very direct about "when the kids say X, I think you should respond with Y", etc... and then let go of what you can't control, which is if she internalizes those things or not.