16 yo Daughter Is Moving In And Going NC with BPD Mom

[Torched]

Thanks both of you for your thoughts and listening.  I find myself in a very tough spot personally (work responsibilities with large problems currently to handle there for my company, my son struggling a little in college, a long-distance spouse for now who has a special needs son and needs my backup).

This continues to be helpful to have experienced people give advice and let me know we are on track.

Holidays are proving a little tough for D16 but I keep telling her it’s understandable and that time will make a huge difference.  For now concentrate on today and friends and school and sports.  It’s advice I can take as well.  Tough times don’t last forever.

[Couscous]

I find myself in a very tough spot personally (work responsibilities with large problems currently to handle there for my company, my son struggling a little in college, a long-distance spouse for now who has a special needs son and needs my backup).

It sounds like you are dealing with a lot — perhaps even too much for a single person to have to handle. The main problem is that you will not be of much use to anyone if you have a nervous breakdown.

It’s possible that you (like many here on BPDfamily.com, myself included) may have a Self-sacrifice Schema and if you think that this is the case, then this could be something worth addressing in therapy and/or Al-Anon, which could also prove quite helpful for this issue.

Here is something about this schema that may resonate:

Self-Sacrifice Schema involves, “Excessive focus on voluntarily meeting the needs of others in daily situations, at the expense of one's own gratification. The most common reasons are: to prevent causing pain to others; to avoid guilt from feeling selfish; or to maintain the connection with others perceived as needy. Often results from an acute sensitivity to the pain of others. Sometimes leads to a sense that one's own needs are not being adequately met and to resentment of those who are taken care of. " — Jeffrey Young

[Couscous]

It sounds like you are really dealing with a lot — perhaps it’s even too much for a single person to have to handle. The thing is, you will not be of much use to anyone if you end up having a nervous breakdown.

It’s possible that you (like many here on BPDfamily.com, myself included) may have a Self-sacrifice Schema and if you think that this is the case, then this could be something worth addressing in therapy and/or Al-Anon, which could also prove quite helpful for this issue.

Here is something about this schema that may resonate:

Self-Sacrifice Schema involves, “Excessive focus on voluntarily meeting the needs of others in daily situations, at the expense of one's own gratification. The most common reasons are: to prevent causing pain to others; to avoid guilt from feeling selfish; or to maintain the connection with others perceived as needy. Often results from an acute sensitivity to the pain of others. Sometimes leads to a sense that one's own needs are not being adequately met and to resentment of those who are taken care of. " — Jeffrey Young

[Notwendy]

It's great that you are concerned about your children. Are you taking care of yourself? One result of my upbringing is that I didn't want to role model my mother, and assumed my father was the "normal" one who was a victim of her behavior. It was later when I had to work on my own co-dependent traits that I saw his, and how that fit into the dynamics in the relationship with my mother. I didn't know this could be a problem until I had to deal with it. I had to learn that it is OK to take care of myself too.

One gift you can give your kids is to take care of yourself and role model this. Of course one shouldn't go too far and be selfish to their detriment but I don't think that's much of an issue when there are BPD dynamics- leaning too far in not taking care of oneself seems to be the tendency with that

[Torched]

I hear what you are all saying.  I believe I had an issue with this schema through my early life.  I went through counseling from 2012-13 before getting the courage to divorce and I learned that I tend towards this.  During the last ten years I have focused on doing what is best for myself.  That’s how I find myself in a really great marriage with a very solid and healthy partner who gives me the support and love I now know I deserve.

While my nature is not 100 changed, I look out for me now.  I’m very happy.

[Torched]

Today was my ex’s birthday.  My D16 Received the following text from grandmother:
“Today is your mother’s birthday.  Reach out to wish her a happy birthday.  Your bible says to honor your mother and father.  Not disrespect them.  You are better than this!”

She is doing ok but that is wrong.

[Riv3rW0lf]

This makes me incredibly sad and angry for your daughter, who seems to be parentified by everyone surrounding her mother... She has to be the grown up, the mother, to honor her parent... But what about

“Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.”

“Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger by the way you treat them. Rather, bring them up with the discipline and instruction that comes from the Lord.”

Two things my mother with BPD didn't bother achieving for us. We had to bend to her will, she molded our personalities with rages until there was nothing left of us and we had to rebuild ourselves as adults, completely traumatised.

The grandmother would do well to refresh her bible studies. There are more psalms and directives than to honor one's parents.

I am so very grateful your daughter has you. Sending you much thoughts and support.

Honoring our parents is a process, and to achieve forgiveness and the honoring part, we first need to validate ourselves. Honoring a parent is not about doing everything they demand, and tolerating abuse...this is not honoring someone. honoring someone is putting healthy boundaries in place so that they can learn natural consequences and become their best selfs.

Good luck to you both  

[Torched]

Thank you.  I just need to vent.  This grandmother is an atheist.  My d16 is pretty devout.  She isn’t however judgemental or mean.  She is caring and friendly but with smarts and boundaries to protect her. I just talked to her and she is still taking this as well as possible.  It’s good that she has a counselor meeting Thursday because she could use additional validation.  I don’t want them creating hurtful uncertainty, guilt and obligation.

[ForeverDad]

My D16 Received the following text from grandmother:
"Today is your mother’s birthday.  Reach out to wish her a happy birthday.  Your bible says to honor your mother and father.  Not disrespect them.  You are better than this!"

Scriptures such as this are directed at relatively normal people and relatively normal relationships.  To claim otherwise, that there are no exceptions to generic counsel, is wrong.

Rather than perceptive and supportive, grandmother sounds enabling.

There is also this advice:
"Better is a dish of vegetables where there is love than a fattened bull where there is hatred." - Proverbs 15:17
"Better is a piece of dry bread where there is peace than a house full of feasting along with quarreling." - Proverbs 17:1
"Better to dwell on a corner of the roof than in the same house with a quarrelsome wife." - Proverbs 21:9; 25:24

Seems even in Bible times there were some nasty people it was wise to keep at a distance.

[Methuen]

That text your D16 received from grandmother is despicable.  Instead of holding her daughter accountable (D16’s mother) she is enabling.  Can kind of see where it comes from.  But you are helping D16 to break the pattern.  So glad she has you, and so glad that you also know/have learned how to take care of yourself.  As others have already said, you are role modeling healthy patterns, which is exactly what is needed to counter that guilt and obligation ridden caretaking text from grandmother, who is cherrypicking the convenient parts of the bible while ignoring the parts that are inconvenient to her narrative.

[Notwendy]

That text was inappropriate. If this is her mother's mother, I can see how religion was also used to make her mother comply.

I have spent time in ACA groups and one of the topics is religious abuse. A child forms their concept of God based on their experiences with their parents. If the home is abused, religion can also be a means of abuse. It's not that the religion itself is wrong- it's how it is used in the family.

For the members of the group, one task is to form their own religious concepts. Some remain in the same religion and look at scripture from the adults (recovered adult) perspective, some reject it, and some change religions to differentiate from the memories they have of the one they are raised with.

At 16, your D is developing abstract thought and forming her own concept of God but she is far from completing this development. She can not see scripture from an adult perspective. She will do this in time. In the meantime, the task is to distinguish the grandmother's (mis)use of it from the actual scripture itself.

If someone has loving parents, it's easy to honor them,  but not all of us do. So how does one honor a difficult parent? It's a struggle. I can share my own ideas. Not that I know exactly what to do or even if it's the right thing to do but I have to make peace with myself (and God) as much as I can.

First of all- God made everyone in God's image and our task is to be who we are, not what someone else expects us to be. We also have the right to protect ourselves from harm- physical or emotional.

If a parent is dangerous emotionally to a child- it is necessary to protect  that child. Your D is a child. Her grandmother is making the mother's feelings a priority over the child's emotional safety but it's the child who needs protection.

Honoring a parent is not the same as loving or obeying them. If they request something that is harmful to others, we do not have to comply. If I enable my mother to be emotionally abusive to me, then I am enabling her to do wrong things. I don't have to allow that.

How do I honor her?
By not gossiping about her.
By not being mean or disrespectful to her in person.
By disengaging if I am upset or angry with her rather than say something mean back.

Your D can come up with her own way of "honoring her mother" which doesn't include putting herself in emotional harm. Same for with her grandmother. Your D can work with a clergy member that you trust to work this out in accordance with her religious beliefs.

[Torched]

Thanks NotWendy.

[Couscous]

While I am sure it’s only natural for parents to get upset when they hear about their children getting harassed, it is also necessary to maintain some degree of emotional detachment from our kids. Ultimately, it’s going to be up to your D to figure out how to navigate her relationship with her mother, and she may even eventually be able to have an arm’s length relationship with her as she develops stronger boundaries. Since your ex is high functioning then she has the ability to be on “good behavior” when she has enough motivation to do so, and if your D has a zero tolerance policy with respect to abusive behavior, her mother may decide to play ball. Only time will tell.

As far as the text is concerned, this kind of thing is standard MO in dysfunctional families and your D can expect to see a lot more of it. All the “peacemakers” are jumping at the opportunity “rescue” your ex because it boosts their self-esteem to do so. If you haven’t heard of the Karpman drama triangle, it might be worth reading up on it, and explaining the concept to your D.

 

[ForeverDad]

I saw an article that exposed this very issue.  The remarried mom was outraged that this year 16 year old teenager planned to visit his dad during the upcoming holidays.  (Even though last year son had spent the holidays with her and stepdad.)  She emotionally responded that he had "ruined" the holidays this year for her.  She described... son "just sat there and looked down".  Browbeaten pattern?

Fortunately the response was overwhelming not to guilt the teen.

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/family-outrage-divorced-mom-devastated-teen-son-spend-christmas-dad

[ForeverDad]

I just remembered - I'm more forgetful these days - birthdays weren't celebrated in Bible times.  Well, actually there were instances but both times someone died (in Joseph's day by Pharaoh and in Jesus' day by King Herod Antipas).

Just as we say that recovery is a process and not an event, so too with honoring - it is with one's life pattern and not simply an event.

[Torched]

Thx for the continued wisdom all.  It gives me legitimate things to share with my daughter as needed.

In the past week, my ex’s fiancé (who I have known a long time, he is a “supernice guy” always trying to “help” the ex) flying monkeyed me.  Has no clue anything is wrong with my ex, even though my d16 has told me how he was the target of some rages and dissociative events over the past few years.  He claimed he agrees with 98% of my daughters problems with her mother (which does not seem true, although he sees mom’s behavior as curious and unusual).  He really wanted info on why the counselor supports my daughters decision to separate from mom and also to be completely non-contact.  He wants that info so he can tell her mother.  I told him it was about the behaviors my d16 had related and i described those behaviors as inappropriate and then pointed out the inappropriate violation of any boundaries my d16 had set against those behaviors.  That was it.  Take it or leave it, I didn’t care and understood.  I told him it is important that d16 get “time and space” to deal with this entire mess caused by her mother.

Today ex emailed me after ignoring prior messages regarding quarterly financial equalization.  She wants to know why she isn’t listed as a parental contact on the current counseling contract.  Said the counselor will not call her back and office won’t give info.  It’s clear they are trying to protect d16 from a release of counseling notes.  I told the counselor a month ago that I understand her not wanting the conflict with ex (ex had called her and I don’t think it went well) but should mother ultimately obtain case files she wouldn’t like what it demonstrated. 

My d16 has reiterated she wants mom out of her life completely.  I pause at that until d16 relates what her mother has done to her and then I find respect for her feelings. 

I think this is going to get rough for a while.  Ex has to be right and I think that might cause her to make trouble.  The counselor thinks she is as much npd as BPD.  We will see.

[ForeverDad]

There is a countdown clock running... less than two years before D16 attains the adult age of 18 years.  Meanwhile she is choosing an older teen's option to "vote with her feet".

Ex’s fiancé is displaying mental cognizance similar to many who arrive here mystified why things are so bad.  They've been gaslit for so long and so intensely that they simply can't - or don't - get an objective perception and open their eyes to the reality.

"Yes, I agree with 98% of what D16 relates... but I still don't understand..."

[Torched]

Yeah, I have to just keep reminding myself (and her) that mom isn’t in a position to really do anything except try to poke at her using other people.

[zachira]

In many places, it is against the law to release the counseling notes to parents or talk to parents about what is discussed in therapy if what the parents learn is harmful to the child and will destroy the child's safety in counseling.

[Torched]

Right…I was told they can’t discuss what is said but must release the case file if a parent requests it formally.

[zachira]

In many places, the therapist has the legal right to not release the case file of the child to a parent even if formally requested when doing so in the therapist's opinion will damage the therapeutic relationship between the therapist and child. Otherwise, it would not be safe for many children to participate in therapy.

[Torched]

That is worth the counselor exploring.

[Couscous]

I was able to keep my mother and the rest of my family at bay for more than two years by strategically “picking fights” with my mother followed by about 3 months of silence, so that it didn't appear that I was going no contact, as I was concerned about retaliation.

The issue is that your ex-W most likely interprets your daughter’s actions as a move in a game, and so she is now making her countermove. If your D can pretend to play the game she may just be able to make it to age 18 without your ex-W escalating the situation. Going no contact can be interpreted as an act of war by families high in narcissism, and things can get pretty nasty. You may wish to seek out counseling from someone who has experience with high-conflict, abusive family systems if things continue to intensify. I also wonder if emancipation could be an option, although that can take up two years in my state…

[Torched]

She has been telling people close to her including the counselor during their only discussion that I have alienated our daughter from her.  It’s funny because I’ve never talked bad about her to the kids and her fiancé tells everyone he can’t understand why she hates me so badly and talks so badly about me to people.

She can’t control our daughter and I don’t believe she plans to try.

I think she wants to find out what her liabilities are here before she starts crafting a plan to control the narrative.  From my perspective this is about my daughter and there is nothing to tell anyone.  I could care less what people think.

[Couscous]

The problem isn’t what people think, it’s that your ex is probably going to do everything in her power to force contact with your D, especially if she has NPD traits.

I hope it never has to come to this, but I assume that until your D is 18 she cannot get a restraining order, so strategically appeasing her mother until she is 18 might be your D’s best option. As a teenaged girl I am sure she is well skilled in knowing how to push her mother’s buttons, for example, she could demand that her mother take accountability and apologize for her actions. And just to be clear, any communication would have to be via email and you would need to screen any replies her M may send. In my case my mother would not reply to my emails, and would “punish” me with the silent treatment, which was exactly the effect I was hoping for. I definitely do not suggest phone calls or in person contact, even with a therapist.

I certainly hope your D’s therapist has the option to withhold the information your ex is requesting and to not back down on that. Good luck to all of you.

[Torched]

Couscous this is good info….thank you.  My ex does play the “no response cold shoulder game.”

[Notwendy]

When a child cuts contact there can only be two reasons ( or both ). It's the parents' fault or the child's fault. It may cause some shame for the pwBPD to consider anything they did on their part- and shame is a very difficult feeling. To avoid shame, the explanation has to be that it is someone else's fault- the child's. So it makes sense her mother would do this and her finance would try to comfort her in this situation.

For your D though, this is dynamics and not personal to her. This is how her mother copes. Her mother may not ever be able to see her own part in this or be accountable but this is not your D's fault.

[Torched]

Thank you to everyone for listening and offering hope.

My daughter completed counseling about a week ago.  She has managed to deal with stresses caused by her mother’s family and seems very well adjusted.  She has stopped trying to control everything like school and sports, no longer has any shame/guilt,  and is really happy.  She no longer seems to fear her mother, but has no plans to reconnect with her for now.  It is really surprising to me that she has reached this place so quickly but I’m not complaining.  It’s wonderful.  I know there will always be some challenges for her but she is ok.

I hope this thread gives someone in the future some hope.

[Notwendy]

It's good to hear your D is happy and doing well. She seems to have a strong sense of direction for her age. I also think your support for her and her decision is crucial to her ability to make her own choice, as well as her own sense of self. I know you will continue to be this for her.

[ForeverDad]

Great news!  You can assure her that she can keep in contact with her counselor, perhaps occasional sessions for a while, just to ensure her life doesn't suffer understandable setbacks or relapses.