Small money issues - how much is bpd at work here?

[Manic Miner]

New issues with my estranged W are emerging. Now it's money.

For about 9 years, until she got her job, my salary covered 70-80% of our total monthly expenses. The rest we covered from our child SN care.
Since late 2020, she started working on her freelance teaching job. She got it right, having students and earning more. It's a freelance job, so no month is equal, but her business was growing, surpassing my own.
We agreed to separate our mutual expenses in half, even when we were still living together. While she never refused, she was displeased - why suddenly she had to pay for something what was solely my obligation in the past?

A simple example was our car she used extensively, even more than me. I think it was fair to share the yearly maintenance and fuel cost on that. Was it not? Needless to say, it seemed unfair for me to be expected to pay for everything, while she was earning more and keeping it for her own stuff and savings.

However, things started to be even more 'fuming' since we separated. I agreed to give her about 80% of what alimony money would be if we divorced. Or to buy something for our D myself or share the expenses in the same amount. Apparently that just wasn't enough. She started assuming things, even for deals we both agreed to share.

For example, daughter's kindle tablet broke an we agreed to share the expenses of a new one. I bought it myself and when I asked for her share, she was visibly triggered and annoyed, stated things like 'oh yeah, since we are paying in half for everything, I will need to get used to play those games myself next time'.

Same happened when a 2y maintenance plan for her blog website invoice came to my email. Since 2008 I've been paying it myself, but in 2020 we agreed it was her duty from now on. She paid it herself then. However, this time I asked if she wanted me to share the half, because I hosted my website there too. She agreed. But when the pay time actually came, the same scene happened. Triggered and annoyed, out of thin air, accusing me of nitpicking. Apparently she even forgot that she used to pay it in full before.

Can't she just stick to the deal(s) we both agreed? Are pwBPD bad with money issues? Or did I just spoil her over the years with a comfy, carefree life, money-wise? What's best to overcome these kind of situations in the future in a calm manner? Wherever I have money issues wit her, I'm getting anxious myself. And it's not about money per se, but the lack of any agreement and her unfounded expectations that I somehow have a goldmine hidden somewhere.

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[kells76]

Can't she just stick to the deal(s) we both agreed? Are pwBPD bad with money issues? Or did I just spoil her over the years with a comfy, carefree life, money-wise? What's best to overcome these kind of situations in the future in a calm manner? Wherever I have money issues wit her, I'm getting anxious myself. And it's not about money per se, but the lack of any agreement

Good questions, and important to talk through so that you can minimize (likely not eliminate) conflict here as best you can moving forward.

Can't she just stick to the deal(s) we both agreed?

"Broadly normal" minds see agreements and fairness as important, and have the ability to see "hmmm, well, if I require that of you, then you can require that of me". Reciprocity, empathy, equal footing, and fair play might be concepts so fundamental to "broadly normal" agreements that we take them for granted. With pwBPD, I suspect part of the disorder is that we imagine they seem agreements the same way. I think they do not. The disorder/filter on their minds might be like: "Nobody else is looking out for me, I've only got myself. Everyone else is out to get me, it's actually good that I put my own interests on top. I have to be the winner, otherwise I'm dirt. There is no win-win, there's only win-lose or lose-lose, and I cannot countenance being the loser. I will fight to have it all because it feels like emotional survival. Winning tangible things is how I feel OK about myself." Those are some speculations about how to verbalize how a pwBPD might approach a situation where "losing" could happen to them.

So, "broadly normal" people can handle a little losing now and then, especially with long term planning ability and executive function working pretty OK. "Sure, I had to compromise with my boss on not having time off this week, but hey, it means more time off for me next month!" Or, "Yeah, I paid a little more than Chris did when we bought XYZ together, but Chris has already done more work to fix XYZ than me, so that seems fair".

I strongly suspect pwBPD don't see agreements that way at all. So expecting pwBPD to approach agreements, even legally binding agreements (like parenting plans, sigh), like non-BPD persons, isn't a tenable expectation.

Your W may prioritize her emotional survival above all. All other considerations are thrown to the wind when it feels to her like a matter of survival. So, I would not expect her to be able to stick to a deal consistently, as to her, it might not make any sense in an emotionally dysregulated moment: "Why should I follow these pointless rules when my very being is at stake?"

One way of looking at it is: her being able to follow an agreement is (a) an exception versus the rule, and (b) something that happens when it doesn't impinge on her sense of emotional survival.

Our experience: the kids' mom follows the parenting plan when it benefits her and elevates her status. When it impinges on what she wants to do, or she wants to hurt DH through the kids, it's out the door and totally disregarded.

Are pwBPD bad with money issues?

Some are, and there are probably some stories on here of pwBPD who aren't. I think how $$$ get managed is a function not only of the impact of BPD on the person but also just who they are as a unique person, regardless. Perhaps someone who is fundamentally a little more on the "control/rigidity" side, who then also has BPD, might do better with money management. However, as BPD involves harmfully intense emotions and, often, executive function impairment and/or low impulse control, then that combination would be pretty hard in the budget area. Buying things/spending could be seen as vitally important for emotional survival in the moment, erasing all future planning, as only survival in the moment matters: "If I don't get that outfit/that car/that trip, that exemplifies the lifestyle I desperately want to have, then I'll feel like I am dying, worthless, and cannot survive".

So that's my hypothesis, that it isn't inherent for a pwBPD to "have to" be bad with money, yet because of many features of the disorder, it can be likely that that makes it incredibly difficult to manage money calmly and effectively.

Long term money management involves, again, long term planning, impulse control, executive function, etc, all of which may be impaired in a pwBPD. Their ability to sometimes manage money OK could, for some, be more of an exception than a rule. Yet, to circle back, it also depends on the individual, regardless of the BPD.

Our experience: the kids' mom seems to struggle with long term money management. The kids stress out a lot about "being broke", "checks bouncing", etc, and there seem to be struggles with long term non-crisis $$$ choices (i.e., cars don't get maintained). Yet there is a lot of eating out, and Mom buying trendy clothes plus taking trips (including flights) on her own.

did I just spoil her over the years with a comfy, carefree life, money-wise?

It's good to ask yourself what your role was in this dynamic.

One concept that gets talked about here is allowing pwBPD to experience the consequences of their own choices. If a pwBPD chooses to buy trendy clothes instead of saving for rent, then yes, it will be stressful at the end of the month. "Saving" the situation by swooping in and covering rent "just this once" deprives the pwBPD of an opportunity to experience discomfort and maybe make a connection between choices and outcomes. Making that connection isn't something we can force on others, yet if we always step in to save the day, then the opportunity isn't there, and we may become resentful and burned out.

A very challenging thing about changing our role in the dynamic -- for example, stopping saving the day financially -- is managing our own discomfort when we change. It probably won't feel good, and the pwBPD may react in ways that are uncomfortable to us. We have to have the fortitude to stick to our plan no matter what.

What's best to overcome these kind of situations in the future in a calm manner?

What I have found helpful when dealing with the kids' mom is finding ways to move forward where her agreement, response, or feedback aren't necessary. And/or, where I've decided in advance that I accept whatever/however she responds, as I've already planned ahead for either.

For example, SD14 has a volunteer gig that she loves. We have scheduled it to be on weekends when she's with us. However, other opportunities come up, often on Mom's time.

If I had a deep emotional investment in having to make these other times work, and I asked Mom to agree to let me take SD14 on Mom's time, and Mom did her thing of: stonewalling, being nonresponsive, being manipulative, triangulating, putting me down and elevating herself, etc, then every time I tried to do this for SD14, it'd be an absolute nightmare. I.e., if I communicated with Mom and had expectations of her that were "normal", then I'd likely be disappointed every time. An example of this would be:

kells76: Hey, is it OK if I take SD14 to her thing on Tuesday? She really wants to go!

Mom: (no response for a couple of days)

kells76: Hey, Tuesday is tomorrow -- can SD14 go to the thing? We need to figure it out ASAP.

Mom Well, SD14 told me that she'd rather spend time with me on Tuesday than with you. I'd appreciate more open communication from you.

...

So, trying to communicate "normally" with Mom, with hopes of working together, results in: unresponsiveness, her putting me down and elevating herself, plus a dose of blame.

Here's how I do it instead:

kells76: Hey, does it work for your schedule for SD14 to do X on Tuesday from 12-2? If I don't hear back from you by Sunday at 8pm, I'll assume we're good to go! Thx

Mom: yes

There, I wasn't begging, I wasn't framing it as "what the kids want" (which she nearly always manipulates to elevate herself as "the chosen parent"), I had a deadline where her non-response was a response, and I had already let go of being married to any outcome -- I had decided to be OK if it didn't work out.

...

So, approaches to trying to get agreement, working together, following a plan, etc.

-Decide for yourself in advance what outcomes you're OK with. If you're not OK with her doing XYZ, then don't make choices that send you down that path.

-Don't "do your half" first and expect her to reciprocate. Assume that whatever you need paid for you will have to do it all. Set it up so that if she does pay, that's nice but not necessary. Our experience was that if the kids needed/wanted something (activity, passports, etc), we decided in advance if we could foot the entire bill, and that's what decided it for us. If we couldn't pay for the whole thing ourselves it wouldn't happen. It would've been nice if Mom offered to pay for half the passports but she didn't and we didn't ask. Trying to "split costs" for activities I suggested turned into Mom being able to take the victim position: "kells76 pressured me into paying for half, but we never really wanted to -- she set us up to not be able to say No to SD14, and now we're going to be broke at the end of the month because of kells76 making us support this activity". Not doing that again.

-Don't save her from her own expenses and be ready to cope with uncomfortable emotions.

-Decouple as many expenses/choices as possible. This will be more inconvenient logistically but more peaceful emotionally. Our experience: SD14 and her brother (Mom & Stepdad's son) go to the same school, far away from DH's work. Logistically, it'd be more convenient for Mom to pick up both kids on Dad's day and bring SD14 to our house. However, I don't trust her to do that efficiently and non-manipulatively -- I fully expect her to do moves like "Well once SD14 got in the car she decided she wanted to spend the day with me" or "Her brother is SOOO sad to drop her off, she needs to stay with me longer to help him not be sad". It is hugely inconvenient for DH to drive all the way across town to get SD14 but it solves the emotional manipulation problem.

-In communications, find ways where her non-answer is still an answer. Not in a manipulative/ultimatum/threat way (I'm not suggesting things like "If you don't tell me by Friday if you're paying, then I'm not getting the iPad for Daughter"), rather in a way where given that you've already decided what outcomes you're OK with, her non-response still allows you to move forward to one of those outcomes. Again, our example was -- instead of asking/begging/pleading for a response (or for payment, or whatever), frame it as a statement: "Let me know by Day/Time if splitting the costs 50/50 works for your budget; if I don't hear back from you by then, I'll assume ABC and move forward. Best; ManicMiner"

-Open as few doors to conflict as possible -- connected to the "do what's logistically more of a hassle, in exchange for emotional peace". For example, here:

Since 2008 I've been paying it myself, but in 2020 we agreed it was her duty from now on. She paid it herself then. However, this time I asked if she wanted me to share the half, because I hosted my website there too. She agreed. But when the pay time actually came, the same scene happened.

might be a place where "trying to be nice and fair" opened a door for her to argue, be a victim, and create conflict. As "illogical" as it would be to not split it, or for you to find a different place to host your website... those options might be preferable to this bill being a continual source of conflict.

...

When we can quietly do as much as possible to work independently of the pwBPD, and to solve our own logistical issues in a way where we don't need their cooperation to move forward, we can actually do our part to minimize the conflict.

While this may be more challenging as you are still married, it's not uncommon for many couples to have separate bank accounts, or two personal accounts for the spouses plus one "joint" for bills, or any other setup that allows parallel and independent choices about money.

Having some kind of $$$ separation, and setting up decisions so that cooperation and agreement aren't necessary, and deciding for yourself in advance what you're willing to accept, and, ultimately, accepting that she does not and will not view agreements like you do, are the 30000 foot view things that can decrease money management as a catalyst for conflict.

...

Food for thought...

[SaltyDawg]

New issues with my estranged W are emerging. Now it's money.

I think that you have answered your own question.  Mine is spending down my money and treating it as 'our money', and not touching her money to which I contributed more than half to for family expenses and it is a sore point for me.  It triggers her to violence, and it triggers me to being very irritable.

Since you guys are 'estranged' do you think she is doing this to deliberately 'trigger' you with money issues whether or not this is a conscious tactic by your wife?

[Notwendy]

Manic Miner- I would say money issues are common with pwBPD. There's an emotional component to money. We have all seen this- how someone spends money is more than numbers. There are people who go broke on any income, and so are there frugal people. It has to do with impulse control and emotional regulation. I think just about every day we see something we want --- but people with emotional regulation skills will say " I'd like to have this but can I afford it?"

In addition, when someone feels like a victim, their sense of fairness is skewed. Something may be split 50-50 but they feel it's unfair. They may also have a sense of entitlement.

I don't have experience with divorce settlements, but I think that is determined in the courts. Be sure you have a lawyer who defends your interest so this settlement is fair.

I think it's best to avoid as many "shared" expenses as possible, such as the website. The less the two of you are sharing things, the less you have to negotiate - as these are potential conflicts. Some of these are unavoidable but try to minimize them.

I'd also distinguish between cost of something for her and cost of something for your child. The child didn't choose this situation and if she needs something, and wife refuses, then don't make her pay the consequences of this dispute. However, she is old enough to understand the value of money so prioritize needs over wants according to your budget. In your decisions though, don't blame your wife "I can't get you a kindle because mother won't help pay for it" is triangulating. "I can't get you a kindle because I don't have the money for it right now" is not.

Financial agreements between you and your D need to be between the two of you. If she needs a kindle and you can get it for her, then you do it. If it's above budget, then you tell her you can't do it right now. She's old enough to understand how to begin to manage money. There's no controlling what her mother does with her money. Hopefully this will be settled legally.

[Manic Miner]

@Kells76
Thanks a lot on your thorough review of the situation. Your own experience and case examples really helped a lot. Not only I could sympathize, but also found it amazing how their mother and my W used the same lines, same 'tools' when feeling threatened.

kells76: Hey, is it OK if I take SD14 to her thing on Tuesday? She really wants to go!

Mom: (no response for a couple of days)

kells76: Hey, Tuesday is tomorrow -- can SD14 go to the thing? We need to figure it out ASAP.

Mom Well, SD14 told me that she'd rather spend time with me on Tuesday than with you. I'd appreciate more open communication from you.

Changing some words perhaps and we got the same response I get from my W, regarding our D. Absolutely the same lines, same being nonresponsive, being manipulative, triangulating, putting me down and elevating herself.

I started offering both answers within my questions, so even no response is a response, without having the need to wait or expect. However, I still get caught off-guard. Sometimes she deliberately makes it worse for me when she feels endangered, elevating herself to sound like a more caring parent and a great mother. There was a constant alert between us, even when I thought I got it all.

-Decide for yourself in advance what outcomes you're OK with. If you're not OK with her doing XYZ, then don't make choices that send you down that path.

-Don't "do your half" first and expect her to reciprocate. Assume that whatever you need paid for you will have to do it all. Set it up so that if she does pay, that's nice but not necessary. Our experience was that if the kids needed/wanted something (activity, passports, etc), we decided in advance if we could foot the entire bill, and that's what decided it for us. If we couldn't pay for the whole thing ourselves it wouldn't happen. It would've been nice if Mom offered to pay for half the passports but she didn't and we didn't ask. Trying to "split costs" for activities I suggested turned into Mom being able to take the victim position: "kells76 pressured me into paying for half, but we never really wanted to -- she set us up to not be able to say No to SD14, and now we're going to be broke at the end of the month because of kells76 making us support this activity". Not doing that again.

-Don't save her from her own expenses and be ready to cope with uncomfortable emotions.

-Decouple as many expenses/choices as possible. This will be more inconvenient logistically but more peaceful emotionally. Our experience: SD14 and her brother (Mom & Stepdad's son) go to the same school, far away from DH's work. Logistically, it'd be more convenient for Mom to pick up both kids on Dad's day and bring SD14 to our house. However, I don't trust her to do that efficiently and non-manipulatively -- I fully expect her to do moves like "Well once SD14 got in the car she decided she wanted to spend the day with me" or "Her brother is SOOO sad to drop her off, she needs to stay with me longer to help him not be sad". It is hugely inconvenient for DH to drive all the way across town to get SD14 but it solves the emotional manipulation problem.

-In communications, find ways where her non-answer is still an answer. Not in a manipulative/ultimatum/threat way (I'm not suggesting things like "If you don't tell me by Friday if you're paying, then I'm not getting the iPad for Daughter"), rather in a way where given that you've already decided what outcomes you're OK with, her non-response still allows you to move forward to one of those outcomes. Again, our example was -- instead of asking/begging/pleading for a response (or for payment, or whatever), frame it as a statement: "Let me know by Day/Time if splitting the costs 50/50 works for your budget; if I don't hear back from you by then, I'll assume ABC and move forward. Best; ManicMiner"

-Open as few doors to conflict as possible -- connected to the "do what's logistically more of a hassle, in exchange for emotional peace

Lots of food for thought, as you said. I quoted this as I will need to work on this further. It's definitely a work in progress. Thank you.

@Salty For all I know, she is not doing this money thing on purpose. It's what Kells76 just said - wherever she feels insecure and is scared for her very existence, she feels entitled, to be 'above' me and my needs. And I can't do anything to soothe her fears and offer any rational explanation. That only escalates everything as it appears that I'm somehow defending myself. It's disordered thinking at work.

@Notwendy
Yeah, I tried to cut every meaningful shared expenses we did, to save myself of possible consequences.

when someone feels like a victim, their sense of fairness is skewed. Something may be split 50-50 but they feel it's unfair. They may also have a sense of entitlement.

This is also correct. She does that, a lot. Entitlement and power games. She assumes I am way better and more secured than her. So therefore, my needs and expenses don't matter and are nothing compared to her needs, as a mother, women and parent.
The only time when I'm being heard and understood is when I tell about some of my misfortunes, bad deals and mishaps. Telling her that I'm happy and doing great is a potential trigger, so I try to avoid that.

There was a time when I thought that buying her a present or something she wanted would make her feel better and more secure. Especially after our arguments, when it was me that started it first. Turned out it wasn't. Turned out no amount of giving or doing something for her could feed the insatiable need to feel loved and cutoff her own fears and insecurities. It was only temporary. Tomorrow was a new day to be validated.

I'm never pulling my D into this. If W didn't want to share the expenses for a new kindle tablet, I would have bought it myself anyway. Luckily, W did. But she couldn't do it without being visibly triggered, trying to make me feel like unpredictable guy that was mean enough to collect tax from his wife.

As for the website, it is what it is, for now. I maintained and designed her blog anyway. It's one of those expenses that just popped out of nowhere. At least we are 'safe' for 2 more years. Enough time to pull the plug or work on our relationship.

[Notwendy]

There was a time when I thought that buying her a present or something she wanted would make her feel better and more secure. Especially after our arguments, when it was me that started it first. Turned out it wasn't. Turned out no amount of giving or doing something for her could feed the insatiable need to feel loved and cutoff her own fears and insecurities. It was only temporary. Tomorrow was a new day to be validated.

I'm never pulling my D into this.

I watched my father allocate a lot of his earnings to my mother to try to fill that need, and it didn't succeed. Eventually, it created a lopsided allocation of funds for the rest of the family. I have no complaints that I didn't have something material-our basic needs were more than met, but by contrast, my BPD mother was indulged to an extraordinary level (IMHO). I wish this had made her happy.

I am grateful I was not indulged. I had the drive to become financially independent. I know the value of work and a dollar. So there was a pride that I could stand on my own two feet and this is invaluable but there was another message and that message was that I was undeserving and lesser because things were at the extreme they were.

So, give your D the gift of knowing the value of a dollar, but not so much that she feels she has to compromise for the financial stresses caused by her mother. She isn't responsible for that.

[SaltyDawg]

My children are now where NotWendy used to be.  I can sense the resentment. 

My uBPDw likes the gifts; however, she says she doesn't and wants them to stop due to her OCPD miserly tendencies -- so they did.  Now it is emptiness.

My uBPDw, fortunately took notice about the financial stress she was creating with our D with her bi**ing at me about financies -- my D-15 felt like she needed to pick up the slack, so initially when D-15 wanted to get a job, we declined her, until D-15 came to me and told me that she needed it more for her sanity [to get out of the house] to get away from the borderline rages that my wife was doing towards me -- after I shared her financial profile [college is already paid for] and she still wanted to go -- I let her.

My D-15 has the drive to become financially independent -- and doesn't want to be tied to us, but takes after her mom on OCPD with similar tendencies.  She earns plenty, but doesn't spend a thing -- being quite miserly.

[SaltyDawg]

@Salty For all I know, she is not doing this money thing on purpose. It's what Kells76 just said - wherever she feels insecure and is scared for her very existence, she feels entitled, to be 'above' me and my needs. And I can't do anything to soothe her fears and offer any rational explanation. That only escalates everything as it appears that I'm somehow defending myself. It's disordered thinking at work.

They BPD's don't do the 'money thing on purpose' -- I agree with that.  Just like they don't rage or split either, on purpose, but they do.  My uBPDw is also uOCPD - and hoards money when she is baseline and is generally beyond good at handling money -- for a while she handled the late Howard Hughes estate as she is a well respected CPA.  However, when she splits, the opposite happens and she spends unwisely [all or nothing thinking].  Giving money to her friends who are getting divorced in the thousands of dollars at a time.  One of our vehicle's makes a strange noise, the mechanic thinks it is fine, and then she wants to spend the better part of a hundred grand on a USED vehicle -- that could be just as reliable as the one she wants to replace.  She is well intentioned; doesn't do it on purpose -- its just the 'impulsivity' part of the package of BPD that we need to adapt to.

[Notwendy]

The resentment isn't because we feel a sense of entitlement, but a sense of not being valued. I didn't want all the high end stuff my BPD mother has. It's not that I don't like it, it's very nice, but that my sense of priorities is different. When your Dad tells you he's low on funds for your college and then BPD mother goes out and buys a designer handbag, you do wonder, even though I knew my parents were not financially obligated to pay for anything once I turned 18.

The being miserly isn't just being careful with money. We have a sense of not deserving that comes from the low self esteem due to these dynamics. It's also fear. When there's issues over money, it's scary to spend it because you need it to be there for your own sense of security. When parents are in control of the money and it appears out of control to you, you want to feel more stability. While one might think it's a good trait to be frugal, it's not necessarily a sign that your child feels good about herself.

There's also an "I don't want to be like BPD mother" and so not spending money on yourself is a way to not be like that, but it can go too far in the other direction.

Be careful that your D doesn't go too far in the other direction. You don't want to foster entitlement but feeling less worthy isn't good. We know that our mothers are number one to fathers, and expect that it should be, but we girls need to feel we are special to our dads too.

Don't go overboard but indulge your D once in a while. Buy her something like a modest priced necklace or something like that. She needs to feel a bit deserving too.

[SaltyDawg]

NotWendy,

I agree with you; however, 'it's complicated'.  I really really appreciate you taking the time to share with me your perspective of being a daughter of a mother with BPD and how you perceive your father in this dynamic.  Any additional insight that you may have I will be sure to analyze within the context of my relationship with my own daughter.

Both my D and W have undiagnosed OCPD [Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, and is different that the more commonly known in pop-culture OCD which is similar in name only] in which miserly spending habits are present along with being a work-a-holic.  It is much more pronounced in my daughter than in my wife.

My D is a diagnosed AN [Anorexia Nervosa] in remission and was in hospital for months for it.  She has replaced the 'control' aspect of AN with the 'control' aspect of OCPD and has modeled hers after my uBPDwife's OCPD which she idolizes and aspires to be - the Manic Compulsive Work-a-holic [as defined at https://thehealthycompulsive.com/introductory/types-of-obsessive-compulsive/] -- as a result my daughter has undergone the 'parentification' transformation and has replaced me in the role of primary caretaker in the BPD relationship with my wife due to a knee injury that cannot keep up with the 24/7 wanting demands of the BPD.  My wife is the same 'manic compulsive work-a-holic' and is also the 'controlling authoritarian', 'slave driving boss', and 'suffering servant' profiles as defined by the aforementioned link, my daughter is not.

It doesn't help matters, that I have some OCPD tendencies as well, but these are in the 'Reflective Leader' category and I too am 'frugal' but not 'miserly' and my symptoms are comparatively mild when comparing and contrasting to my W, D, and others in an OCPD support group.

Our daughter has learned how to sew, and repairs all of her clothing when they get holes in them.  She eats food that is on the verge of spoiling or even already has spoiled to prevent waste [both my wife and I have to go through the fridge when she is not home to remove this type of food].  She has saved and banked every penny that she has earned to date [just under a year in the work-force at 15 yo].  She started working at 15 yo.  It really stresses her out when I try to buy her things as her mother/my wife complains how I mispend money and we cannot afford anything [we can afford it, retirement planner went from green to yellow with the recent spike in inflation; however, it is still very much manageable for both of us not to work the rest of our lives for the next 45-50 years] and doesn't bring in any money into the family and no longer works since he has had his knee injury.  My pension brings in the same amount of $$$'s (within $40 per month) that my wife brings in from her one paid job, and several unpaid volunteer positions all of which she has worked well past midnight on occasion.  I went from working over a hundred hours per week and wasn't home much to being here 24/7.  Prior to my knee injury, I could do 20 hours on my feet and walk up to a half-marathon per day  [typically 8 to 14 miles each day I was working] according to my fitness tracker it was in the top 1-3 percent of all persons -- after the knee surgery, I was declared fully fit by the docs, and I am able to walk up to 4 miles or be on my feet for 4 hours per day and I am now in the top 40% of all persons.  My wife still expects my previous half-marathon output, which is impossible, so she projects her frustrations on to me, which in turn are observed by my daughter, and the D has voluntarily taken over the role of caretaker [above and beyond the 4 hours a day I can do, of which I also do 'self-care' for myself to maintain my knee rehabilitation which takes even more time away from my wife] as it reduces the stress in my wife = less rages and less splitting episodes.

I would love to indulge our D, which is currently being done by inexpensive home made treats from her grandmother (my MIL who is also OCPD) to keep her weight on -- if me or my wife were to indulge her, she would get stressed.  Her only indulgance is her sweet tooth.  If you buy things for her, that she deems is too expensive, she has high stress, and has on occasion scratched herself deliberately [self harm] when this was tried.  Also, my wife and MIL are the only persons allowed to buy her things [other than food, and that is what I do] outside of birthdays and Christmas.   She has also become a minimalist and only keeps enough clothing and necessary items around to do her jobs of Valedictorian in school [she will graduate HS in two years time with a college degree], vet tech, and parentification.

When I bought my e-bike, as I knew my daughter was soon to be driving age [she would get my car] -- my wife made a huge issue out of it as it cost too much money.  However, my wife had no issue using my inheritance money to pay for a car for her best friend [now junked as it was too cheap and fell apart, and there is no repayment of the unsecured loan at all] that was around $11,000; however, she had a fit when I bought my bike at $1,100, but had no issue buying my daughter a bike the previous year for just under $800 but that amount was reimbursed by her mother.  She complains when I take a hot shower as it uses too much electricity [an extra $5 per year] or leave a decorative light on that costs 2 pennies per month to operate.  My wife has recognized this, and has toned down her rhetoric so my Daughter isn't stressed as she doesn't want to stress her to the point of going back to the mental hospital.

There is still self-esteem issues based on they way she dresses [has convinced others of the excuse]; however, I need to be there to intercept the root cause [I believe this my uBPDw was the trigger (imagine an 11 or 12 yo girl on the receiving end of repeated borderline rages - I can only guess this, as I was out to sea when it happened - even though it official trigger that was listed was my father's death; however, her medical records indicates the loss of weight began at least 4 months prior to my dad having any issues], and the situation has been manipulated where I am the bad guy for not being there while I was working prior to my knee injury.  The weight loss coincides with my wife getting a new boss that my hates hates, and my wife has been disciplined for bad behavior with this boss.  It still continue through today.  The previous major BPD episodes happened with a different boss at a different job, but under a similar set of circumstances.

It's pretty F-d up.  However, I do know that she listens to me, and have to handle this relationship very delicately, and my wife does too; however, I am not the only victim of her transference and projection, our son is too -- but that is not money related, you can view my comments on this in other threads.

In summary, I am leveraging my uBPDw uOCPD to reign in impulsive spending when she is BPD splitting.  I am also hoping to leverage her uOCPD to become self-aware of BPD so she can do the right thing [see other posts for more details on that].  I definitely want to improve my relationship with my children, and to shield them as much as practical for the toxic family dynamic in my home.  Any additional insight, is much appreciated.  I do know that Randi Kreger [author of walking on eggshells and other BPD books] is working on a new book that has a chapter in it that deals with 'dishrag dads' and I have participated in her research for this new book when she has asked questions on a different group on facebook as well and I am looking for additional insight when that book is released [I am assuming sometime next year].

[Notwendy]

I don't think there's a parallel between us and your children. The situation is different. It's my BPD mother who wants high end items and so money in the family was directed to her.

Fortunately we kids do not have significant emotional issues such as anorexia or OCD. We did have low self esteem. I had to work on co-dependency. But this is different from your daughter's situation where her control of money parallels the control of food and OCD. Anxiety drives these kind of behaviors- it's how she manages them. It's not that we didn't feel anxious at times- it's just that we didn't show them in that manner.

So your indulging your D might make her feel anxious because her need is control. On my part, my need was to feel valued. That doesn't take expensive things. I don't really want them. Sometimes my father would buy me a gift, like a new music release from a band I liked. It showed that he thought of me.

[Turkish]

Being bad with money isn't a BPD trait, but Notwendy nails it:

There's an emotional component to money.

And pwBPD have trouble managing their emotions. We were lower middle class and then poor and then homeless due to my BPD mother's issues with money.

A few years ago, my ex asked to borrow $25k to pay off her credit card debts. I could have come up with the money, but I said no. She also owed me $3k in shared medical expenses, per the custody stipulation, but rationalized that she spent more money buying the kids clothes. $3000 worth? I let it go...

There's no way she has paid off that debt, yet she's taking the kids to Hawaii next month. The airfare alone is $1100. Who knows what entertainment, lodging, transportation and food will be? This is the third major vacation that she's taken them on this year.

She's a magical thinker; so was my mother with her get rich quick schemes.  . I agree that it's not about money per se, but rather expectations and being a responsible adult and parent.

I was tempted to "rescue" her with the $25k, but I realized that I'd be enabling her. I did that for years with my mother, even gifting her my truck which she ruined (I should have just given her money).

[SaltyDawg]

NotWendy,

   Thanks for your insight.  I still appreciate your comment "On my part, my need was to feel valued. That doesn't take expensive things. I don't really want them. Sometimes my father would buy me a gift, like a new music release from a band I liked. It showed that he thought of me." This would most definitely be appropriate for my son who loves to 'get stuff' and is the complete opposite of my daughter with regards to things like that.  Keep sharing your insights and perspectives into your own childhood so it can relate to my other child.

Turkish,

   My exBP/NPDgf from the late 1990's was very similar to your ex wife.  No money went to essentials, she only spent on 'wants'.  After I left her [after she cheated for a 2nd time], she lost everything and filed for bankruptcy over a year later.  You did the right thing by not enabling.  Fortunately I was able to make a clean[ish] break from her, only to find myself caretaking a comparatively high functioning BPD.  It only took me half a century to figure this out.  My current pwBPD is my first wife.  She also likely has uOCPD [different that OCD, similar in name only] and is miserly in spending [extreme opposite of my exGF] except when my wife splits and then spends with her heart [helping out her girlfriends who are getting divorced].  My children are also extreme opposites too on spending for a while; however, my son is seeing the benefit of saving his money to buy bigger and better things instead of blowing it all on candy and treats; whereas, my daughter saves every penny she has ever earned -- literally.

[Notwendy]

Money can be a flash point for couples even without BPD. It has an emotional component. One idea is that your D is depriving herself of food and also any pleasure from the money she earns. Extreme miserly behavior may be as emotionally driven as reckless spending.

Even as a kid, I didn't want a lot of stuff. I could see that my BPD mother's high end possessions didn't make her happy. While my father was mostly focused on her, if he did give me something, it showed connection if he knew my interests. If your son likes stuff- make the gifts more occasional and special rather than a lot of stuff. I think kids crave parents' time and attention more than things.

I think for me it was the contrast. A family budget includes everyone. But in our case it seemed we were all budget conscious while BPD mother was not and it didn't make sense.

[SaltyDawg]

NotWendy,

   Thank you for your advise.  I am pretty much already doing that with my S.  However, my D will be harder to reach as she is still upset with both of her parents. 

[Goosey]

I try try to avoid posting anymore. The issues about money spending and responsibilities I just can’t stop myself.
    Of all the abuses I could list the most damaging one is deceitful abuse of money and credit card debt.
   Took me 5 years of Ramon noodle to clear up credit cards I never even knew I had after she left. Outright fraud.
   I am alone, passive suicidal and basically depressed unless I am working, but I don’t wonder “why” I feel this way. I feel this way because of the abuse doled out over two plus decades. 
     It is what it is. 
Oh and I don’t get bothered by my ex anymore playing me for money for yet another emergency etc. her mom died and she inherited a few million so I shouldn’t hear from her for at least another 10 months when she is broke again. Ya snarky I know but the truth. They are like drug addicts, they will do anything to get money. Buying crap must fill  a hole. I’ll stop before I feel sorry for her.

[Turkish]

I was going over my open enrollment today. This is why my ex is getting 1x my salary life insurance (when D10 turns 16 or 17 I'll eliminate that) while my kids will split 3x. The kids will split my retirement, investment accounts and home equity. She'll also get social security survivor's benefits for the kids if they're minors. So I'll take care of her enough to take care of the kids. $$$ in = $$$$ out. That's all I've seen thus far.