Argumentative and Combative

[Depression = 72% of members]

I hadn't realized this, but it's been two years since my last post. I would love to say that much has changed, but that is unfortunately not the case. I'm posting today mostly for support and encouragement. My husband is DBPD and very disagreeable and oppositional. It's exhausting being with someone who is so dysregulated that it sometimes seems the way the wind is blowing is a trigger. How to ever feel safe and comfortable in an enjoyable moment? It could change at any time. His coping skills of choice are silence, shutting down, napping, and body language that he denies is even happening, to name a few. I've been keeping a log so that I don't lose perspective and there are at least 2 conflicts a month, which wouldn't seem like much except for their duration. My boundary is to remove myself and not engage or spend time with him until he is ready to talk but this can take up to a week to resolve. I don't always set the boundary when the conflict starts, I may go down the rabbit hole for a bit, because who can be on guard all the time? We spend so much money on his mental health. He is currently seeing a very expensive therapist who believes in having him do DBT homework and skills in between session; this is not talk therapy. And yet, we are in the middle of an extended conflict and although I know he "knows" better, he is indulging in his usual defense mechanisms instead of applying the DBT skills he is learning. Today is day 3 that we are not speaking because of the boundary that I set. He doesn't yell, rage, curse, or even "argue", which may on the surface seem like a good thing, but his withdrawal and silence make it impossible to get anywhere. He stonewalls and refuses to acknowledge that he is upset or angry, let alone communicate to me what is bothering him. It feels like he judges me internally and then gaslights me by saying nothing is wrong (a trigger for me). His emotional immaturity is draining me...

[Autumn14]

I hadn't realized this, but it's been two years since my last post. I would love to say that much has changed, but that is unfortunately not the case. I'm posting today mostly for support and encouragement. My husband is DBPD and very disagreeable and oppositional. It's exhausting being with someone who is so dysregulated that it sometimes seems the way the wind is blowing is a trigger. How to ever feel safe and comfortable in an enjoyable moment? It could change at any time. His coping skills of choice are silence, shutting down, napping, and body language that he denies is even happening, to name a few. I've been keeping a log so that I don't lose perspective and there are at least 2 conflicts a month, which wouldn't seem like much except for their duration. My boundary is to remove myself and not engage or spend time with him until he is ready to talk but this can take up to a week to resolve. I don't always set the boundary when the conflict starts, I may go down the rabbit hole for a bit, because who can be on guard all the time? We spend so much money on his mental health. He is currently seeing a very expensive therapist who believes in having him do DBT homework and skills in between session; this is not talk therapy. And yet, we are in the middle of an extended conflict and although I know he "knows" better, he is indulging in his usual defense mechanisms instead of applying the DBT skills he is learning. Today is day 3 that we are not speaking because of the boundary that I set. He doesn't yell, rage, curse, or even "argue", which may on the surface seem like a good thing, but his withdrawal and silence make it impossible to get anywhere. He stonewalls and refuses to acknowledge that he is upset or angry, let alone communicate to me what is bothering him. It feels like he judges me internally and then gaslights me by saying nothing is wrong (a trigger for me). His emotional immaturity is draining me...

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but you have to accept him where he is. That doesn’t mean accepting unkind, dangerous, or abusive behavior, and it seems that his withdrawal from you is the focus of your issue.

I understand how this *relationship* hardly feels like a relationship at all, but that’s what you have at present.

What do you do when he emotionally “leaves” the relationship? Some members here take these *quiet times* as *me time* and do things they enjoy, while their significant other is doing internally whatever it is that they do.

I would suggest to you that you get out of the house and go do something fun with emotionally healthy friends. Part of this dynamic is undoubtedly that he realizes that he’s making you uncomfortable with his behavior, and if that no longer works, you might get a different response.

[Autumn14]

Thank-you for responding Cat. And for your dedication to helping others!

I am in the midst of radical acceptance and I am mourning the things I now understand I will never have in this relationship, running the gamut from emotional support and stability to being able to renovate our home without taking on all of the responsibility.

I suppose the issue for me is his withdrawal or shutting down often happens in the midst of a conversation, a good time or what seems to me an average day, and there is no warning. In addition to the mood swings I can't figure out, if I express any concern, a negative feeling, or an issue, no matter how gently, he gets a stony, angry face and shuts down. I know from experience he wants me to argue with him about this. My instincts tell me he is often creating conflict with me to project his feelings outward and if I take the bait, I can see how he becomes relaxed in his refusal to argue back. Sometimes I take the bait, but these days I catch it quickly and remove myself. I let him know that when he is ready to have a discussion, he can find me, until then I will be taking space for myself. This works, but it takes him days and is very disruptive to our life.

I do enjoy my alone time, I read and watch shows, but I am in the process of rebuilding my social connections. Until I started learning about BPD and how it was affecting me and our relationship, I allowed it to isolate me. I do have a few friends but not the intimate friends that are readily available if I need a break from my home. We are usually more planned out.

[SaltyDawg]

I recently read on another website:

"If someone throws a fit because you set boundaries, it's just more evidence the boundary is needed."

Obviously the boundary is needed.

I like being stonewalled and mentally checks out of the relationship, at least I can enjoy the relative quiet and peace that accompanies it -- call me strange, but I take it as a break from the CRAZY.

[waverider]

Just be careful if he is "checking out" that is not just triggering your own need for validation by not going along with your way. It is a pain being around someone who has the appearance of "sulking", but this is where building your level of independence is important by not having anyone else's participation or encouragement.

If the crazy nonsense stays in their own head it is not a total lose/ lose situation

[waverider]

I always have a list of "rainy day" plans I can just pull out and do. Optional things that I want to do, but dont need to do. In this case a BPD mood or onset of drama is my rainy day trigger. It is much easier if you dont have to come up with a plan B on the spot. Then the plan B becomes a treat rather than just a poor option, which just builds resentment. That brings up images of me walking around the park in the rain muttering to myself how much I hate this just to get away from it.... Much better to be going to do XYZ that I have been wanting to do for a while and so not feeling like I am just wasting my life.

Constantly putting life on pause while you wait for drama to pass really builds up into anger overtime, as thats time you dont get back.

[Autumn14]

"Constantly putting life on pause while you wait for drama to pass really builds up into anger overtime, as thats time you dont get back."

This! This is exactly what I'm doing and it is building anger and resentment inside of me, toward him. Thank-you for pointing this out. I will continue to work on building independence and creating a "rainy day" plan for myself, for when the emotional storms come.

[Autumn14]

Just be careful if he is "checking out" that is not just triggering your own need for validation by not going along with your way. It is a pain being around someone who has the appearance of "sulking", but this is where building your level of independence is important by not having anyone else's participation or encouragement

I had never thought of it this way. When he checks out, I feel ignored and dismissed. I suppose I am looking for acknowledgement or validation. Is there something I should be doing to get over this need?

[Autumn14]

I recently read on another website:Obviously the boundary is needed.

I like being stonewalled and mentally checks out of the relationship, at least I can enjoy the relative quiet and peace that accompanies it -- call me strange, but I take it as a break from the CRAZY.

Intellectually, I know the boundary is needed and that he is throwing an adult temper tantrum. What I'm struggling with is the chaos of it, the way we could be going along and now I have to step back from whatever we were doing because of his mood. I guess I don't have a complete grasp on radical acceptance yet.

[SaltyDawg]

Intellectually, I know the boundary is needed and that he is throwing an adult temper tantrum.

They most certainly are doing that, a 3-yo emotional maturity with an adult mind and an adult body.

What I'm struggling with is the chaos of it, the way we could be going along and now I have to step back from whatever we were doing because of his mood. I guess I don't have a complete grasp on radical acceptance yet.

It took me 10 full days to realize wtf was going on -- I had my one and only full blown panic attack once I realized what I was dealing with for the past 2+ decades [this happened a few months ago for me] and I am powerless to change my pwBPD.  For me, it hit me like a ton of bricks; however, at least I knew wtf was going on, and at least had a concept of what to do -- I am still learning, and I am still f- things up.  I am a 'no nonsense' kind of guy, if if you are that kind of gal then I would recommend reading the following book Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life by Margalis Fjelstad. 

[waverider]

I had never thought of it this way. When he checks out, I feel ignored and dismissed. I suppose I am looking for acknowledgement or validation. Is there something I should be doing to get over this need?

Only way I found of organizing my thoughts to cope with this is to change my mindset to my partner being an accessory to my life and not a necessity. Sounds harsh, but helps reducing your own "need" for their involvement and approval for all you do, as you are clearly not going to get that no matter how much you jump up and down and have your own little tantrum (even if we do it internally..)

[Autumn14]

They most certainly are doing that, a 3-yo emotional maturity with an adult mind and an adult body.
It took me 10 full days to realize wtf was going on -- I had my one and only full blown panic attack once I realized what I was dealing with for the past 2+ decades [this happened a few months ago for me] and I am powerless to change my pwBPD.  For me, it hit me like a ton of bricks; however, at least I knew wtf was going on, and at least had a concept of what to do -- I am still learning, and I am still f- things up.  I am a 'no nonsense' kind of guy, if if you are that kind of gal then I would recommend reading the following book Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life by Margalis Fjelstad. 

It is currently hitting me like a ton of bricks, finally making its way from intellectual to emotional intelligence. As hard as it has been to work on myself, work with him, and live through the chaos and disappointment, there was still a sense of hope that was buffering me from accepting the true reality of our situation, which may be the toughest thing to do of all.

I am an avid reader and always appreciate book recommendations. I'm currently making my way through the SWOE workbook and I can't express enough how helpful these boards are in offering support, solutions and a dose of realism. I will check your book suggestion out. Thank-you!

[Autumn14]

Only way I found of organizing my thoughts to cope with this is to change my mindset to my partner being an accessory to my life and not a necessity. Sounds harsh, but helps reducing your own "need" for their involvement and approval for all you do, as you are clearly not going to get that no matter how much you jump up and down and have your own little tantrum (even if we do it internally..)

This makes incredible sense and explains my inner and outer conflict. We used to have many fights about my wanting him to be a partner. While he has made many improvements (doesn't make financial decisions without me), he is not and will never be an emotionally supportive partner. Anyway, I'm going to try  your suggestion. I am beginning to understand that my peace and contentedness is dependent on either radically accepting our situation or choosing to move on. Thank-you for responding.

[Cat Familiar]

Only way I found of organizing my thoughts to cope with this is to change my mindset to my partner being an accessory to my life and not a necessity. Sounds harsh, but helps reducing your own "need" for their involvement and approval

I’m a two-time rider in the BPD marriage rodeo. The first time I got preyed upon when I was in a vulnerable state by someone with a multitude of Cluster B traits in addition to the BPD, who totally undermined my sense of self.

The second go-around has been with someone I wanted to be involved with, who is a good and kind person, who supports me emotionally and financially, and other than the occasional BPD episode, is a pleasure to be around.

The difference—other than my current husband being ethical and responsible, is that I learned to have boundaries and the ability to say “no” and stand firm for my values. I had to set aside the romantic fantasy of *bonding* with my *soulmate* and instead focus on who I am, what I want, and look for commonalities while letting go of differences.

It’s not the relationship I dreamed of, but I appreciate him for letting me be me. The occasional BPDness isn’t fun, but I’ve learned not to feed the dragon and it usually goes away within an hour or two, or no longer than a day.

[LeafontheWind]

I had never thought of it this way. When he checks out, I feel ignored and dismissed. I suppose I am looking for acknowledgement or validation. Is there something I should be doing to get over this need?

Autumn, I'm not sure how or what you can do to not feel ignored or dismissed, but I wanted to reach out and at least remind you that you're not alone. I have similar feelings all the time with my pwBPD. I struggle alot with being ignored and then being told I'm ignoring her. One thing that helps me at times is to remind myself that I'm not a good or bad person, and I'm communicating as best as I can in any given situation.

[ClarityNow]

I can relate to so much of what you said. I've found that refusing to be a participant in the drama helps a lot. It sounds like your husband is getting a lot of attention from you for his bad behavior, and that's exactly what he wants so you're just reinforcing it. When he gives you the silent treatment, instead of acting upset about it, continue to talk to him as if he's being "normal": "Oh, I ran into Sally today and guess what she told me?" "Wow, I can't believe that story on the news..." And when he doesn't respond, pretend you didn't notice and move on. If you were about to renovate the kitchen but you feel like your plans have been interrupted by his drama, think to yourself, "Oh well, I'll do it myself" and continue with your plans. Tell him, "I'm going to the store today to look at floor tiles. Would you like to come?" Or, "I called the roofers today and they'll be here tomorrow at eleven." Show him that your life can and will continue regardless of whatever emotional rollercoaster he's on.

This is what I've been doing with my husband lately, and his tantrums are dying out much faster because I'm not providing the emotional outlet he wanted. Try giving him positive reinforcement when he has good behavior, like, "It's so nice to have a peaceful dinner out like this, isn't it?" Basically, they're still children emotionally and we need to treat them as such. Give him attention for good behavior and remove attention for the bad behavior. Good luck!

[Autumn14]

Autumn, I'm not sure how or what you can do to not feel ignored or dismissed, but I wanted to reach out and at least remind you that you're not alone. I have similar feelings all the time with my pwBPD. I struggle alot with being ignored and then being told I'm ignoring her. One thing that helps me at times is to remind myself that I'm not a good or bad person, and I'm communicating as best as I can in any given situation.

Thank-you... For me, these forums not only help with problem resolution but also with validating my experience, which is a necessary counterpoint to feeling dismissed and ignored. Thanks again for responding.

[Autumn14]

I can relate to so much of what you said. I've found that refusing to be a participant in the drama helps a lot. It sounds like your husband is getting a lot of attention from you for his bad behavior, and that's exactly what he wants so you're just reinforcing it. When he gives you the silent treatment, instead of acting upset about it, continue to talk to him as if he's being "normal": "Oh, I ran into Sally today and guess what she told me?" "Wow, I can't believe that story on the news..." And when he doesn't respond, pretend you didn't notice and move on. If you were about to renovate the kitchen but you feel like your plans have been interrupted by his drama, think to yourself, "Oh well, I'll do it myself" and continue with your plans. Tell him, "I'm going to the store today to look at floor tiles. Would you like to come?" Or, "I called the roofers today and they'll be here tomorrow at eleven." Show him that your life can and will continue regardless of whatever emotional rollercoaster he's on.

This is what I've been doing with my husband lately, and his tantrums are dying out much faster because I'm not providing the emotional outlet he wanted. Try giving him positive reinforcement when he has good behavior, like, "It's so nice to have a peaceful dinner out like this, isn't it?" Basically, they're still children emotionally and we need to treat them as such. Give him attention for good behavior and remove attention for the bad behavior. Good luck!

I agree with what you are suggesting. I am working on identifying my participation in the drama, however subtle or unintentional. It is frustrating to be engaged in a conversation that suddenly goes silent for no reason I can identify. It's also deflating and unfulfilling. But...I am going to try your suggestion and move on.

It is only recently that I came to the conclusion that renovating our house, if it's what I really want, will fall on me. It feels simultaneously like a burden and relief, but I suppose that is what radical acceptance is. I've been fighting with him over this particular issue for a very long time because I believed we should share the responsibility; it's a lot of work and stress. He has often expressed anger that the renovation project hasn't happened while not acknowledging he hasn't done anything to further the project. And so we would go around and around, with me refusing to do it because of his attitude toward me. Complete crazy making and excessive ego on both ends. I understand now that due to his executive functioning issues, emotional turbulence and how easily overwhelmed he is that my expectations are not realistic. So the decision lies with me. Do I want to take on the stress and burden? It's up to me, not him, if I want to take on a project that will largely fall on my shoulders. If I do decide to do it, I imagine it will be empowering to do it with clear eyes.

Thanks for responding.

[Ergonomics]

This sound like my relationship. We went to a bunch of different therapists and collected a bunch of "tools" to try to make things better. But we realized that we were just two broken people using the tools in the wrong ways. Do yourself a favor, and look up the concept of emotional safety - that has completely changed my life in un-imaginable ways.

Once we built that emotional safety, it completely changed the way we set boundaries, communicated, everything...

And what's funny is that I used to think that my partner's disorder was really bad, but I realized that it was all just a self-preservation mechanism due to the lack of emotional safety.

I now have a coach that helps me with this, but I would encourage you to look into this, and study it deeply! Life changing!

[Autumn14]

This sound like my relationship. We went to a bunch of different therapists and collected a bunch of "tools" to try to make things better. But we realized that we were just two broken people using the tools in the wrong ways. Do yourself a favor, and look up the concept of emotional safety - that has completely changed my life in un-imaginable ways.

Once we built that emotional safety, it completely changed the way we set boundaries, communicated, everything...

And what's funny is that I used to think that my partner's disorder was really bad, but I realized that it was all just a self-preservation mechanism due to the lack of emotional safety.

I now have a coach that helps me with this, but I would encourage you to look into this, and study it deeply! Life changing!

Could you expound on this? Is there a book or a site you would recommend? This resonates with me deeply. I know that he does not feel emotionally safe, it's a core issue for people with BPD, but the problem is, neither do I. His behavior toward, treatment of and back and forth with me, has created emotional distrust within me as well.