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Author Topic: Latest update regarding my separation & counseling  (Read 1369 times)
Manic Miner
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« on: November 17, 2022, 07:48:55 AM »

W and I separated in late July. She took our D and went to her parents. There were ups and downs. We had a joint family holiday in September.

Well, since then, nothing was coming better for us.

- A short 7day holiday was a mixed bag. While I enjoyed going overall, there were like 3-4 days where she was going in phases and anger or talking about us non-stop, even on the beach, at the museum, coffee shop. The times when we were joyful and relaxed, like we used to be, were far and between. She couldn't focus on the moment and was obsessed about past things and how much I hurt her last year.

- Less than 12h after we arrived from our vacation, she got a meltdown in our/my apartment, after spending the night there. I understand it was tough for her to be here again. Vacation probably meant something for her, for us, to get together again. A reminder of what we used to be. But her reaction was out of place. After crying, she was yelling, stripping our images out of frames and removing pictures from the wall. "Now you will see what divorce really looks like" - she said and started collecting her books from the shelves.

- Week or so later she expressed a desire to reconcile, to get back together again. I said I'd think about it, but something needed to change for real, otherwise we'd be on repeat. I said I could not tolerate rage anymore and we should talk together with our marriage counselor. She somewhat agreed.

- We went to our marriage counselor. Both of us stated opinions, views, problems that happened on our holiday, home etc. Marriage counselor was pleased and said we were improving - both of us shared views without anyone interrupting. He said it looked like we were finally getting somewhere and our talk was more productive.

- On the same day W got into another meltdown and said she'd divorce. When I repeated what MC just said, she replied 'what really was better there? Except that I was hearing how bad I am'. She then told me that I should have cared better for her and that she loved me for years like no woman ever could.

- Two weeks later she stopped going to MC and texted him that she quits. She feels bad after his sessions, needs days to recover and will be heading divorce.

- I had two sessions with MC alone. I told him that this started happening when I stopped caretaking after our vacation. I literally stopped asking her to go out, go hiking, talk about our lives, wishing her good nights or mornings. I now just briefly communicate about our daughter and parenting. I did that as there was zero reciprocity. I noticed unless I initiated something first, nothing was coming from her side. When I stopped caretaking, everything stopped to a full halt. I had enough after that rage and drama at my apt.

- MC encouraged me to continue doing things by myself, for myself. Even if she would approach me kindly, he advised me to be reserved a bit. He says even if my marriage collapses, it's better to be alone (you are already alone and been like that for more than you think - his words) than be brought into dysfunctional circle that is always repeating. - Your wife wants you to be like her father and take care of her, but when you do, you are making her angry and frustrated. And you object doing it. Then it's almost like she's calling you back to behave like this so that cycle can repeat itself. It's a dysfunctional state and behaviour. It's better to be out and not participate.

So that's that. I still have feelings for her, MC also said he thinks she does too. I'm very saddened by this. But I'm aware of the consequences. I wonder if my caretaking interruption will shake this to more healthier grounds eventually or we are really heading for divorce.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 03:44:47 PM by Manic Miner » Logged
ForeverDad
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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2022, 02:02:20 PM »

W and I separated in late July. She took our D and went to her parents.

My first thought when I see a new topic and divorce is looming, I wonder whether there are children.  You have a daughter who will soon be a teenager.  Is your spouse "allowing" you significant time with her?  Until there are court orders specifying otherwise, her unilateral attitude (where in her mind you are no longer perceived as having any decision making authority) is likely marching forward as "possession is 9/10ths of the law".  Or is D being cast as mother's supporter?  Is D being indoctrinated to view you as anything less than her caring father?

Your spouse* has very chaotic emotions and is acting out blaming you for everything.  There's no way this isn't spilling over into her parenting - or lack thereof.  Yes, the marriage is in crisis and the only thing predictable is that she won't be predictable, but you need to ensure your parenting is not sabotaged.

My advice is to perceive the looming divorce as though it were a business merger being undone - but your status as parent and your parenting are non-negotiable, you as father will never walk away nor let yourself be minimized, shunned or blocked.

I wonder if my caretaking interruption will shake this to more healthier grounds eventually or we are really heading for divorce.

Maybe.  You shouldn't view it as a hopeless cause... yet.  But it is certainly heading that way.  Her quitting on counseling and contemplating divorce as her solution is a very telling indicator.  Hope is never a bad thing but it must be realistic.  So... do not be caught off guard.  Be prepared for whichever way things go.

Are your legal "ducks in a row"?  Have you had some legal consultations and chosen an experienced proactive attorney who has explained a variety of strategies for not only preserving a reasonable amount of your financial resources but, more importantly, your parenting?  You will need more than the typical forms filer and hand holder.

* Spouse... is what I use to refer to my former married days.  I say "ex-spouse" rather than "ex-wife" because that was emotionally a dark time in my life, the last two years together and the next eight years in and out of family court.  Frankly, I never came to hate her as she chose to hate me.  I can fondly remember our first dozen years together, she can't.  I just accept her as she is and accept that I have to maintain certain boundaries with her despite us sharing a child together.  Our marriage imploded but I never gave up on parenting.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 02:15:25 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

Manic Miner
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2022, 04:45:48 PM »

My first thought when I see a new topic and divorce is looming, I wonder whether there are children.  You have a daughter who will soon be a teenager.  Is your spouse "allowing" you significant time with her?  Until there are court orders specifying otherwise, her unilateral attitude (where in her mind you are no longer perceived as having any decision making authority) is likely marching forward as "possession is 9/10ths of the law".  Or is D being cast as mother's supporter?  Is D being indoctrinated to view you as anything less than her caring father?

Well, my D has special needs. She has several disabilities, but can walk alone, play video games, study in school. She has something on the autism spectrum that is delaying her. She was always a very joyful, happy and smiling girl. Her character is very positive, but stubborn. Wife does not make her 'hate me', actually she never talked bad about me. D always loved both of us and still craves for times when we are all together. When she's with me I'm her daddy and she knows it.

One thing W does and has been doing for years now, even when we were together, is being in charge as The Mother. I talked about that on these forums already. She's very entitled and sees her motherhood as superior. She does listen to me though, it's never 'my way or the highway'. BUT there's a feeling that we are not equal. I'm almost as a lesser parent and she as a mother more sacrificial, caring, nurturing. She definitely has issues about motherhood, I have no doubt. We lost our twin son 3 days after birth and our D survived. I believe that hit her hard and W never fully recovered. Worst of all, she never processed that with a psychologist. So she's kind of obsessed that our D is ok. At least I successfully managed W to stop calling me when I'm with D alone. She does not do that anymore as I told her that D gets upset.

Excerpt
Your spouse* has very chaotic emotions and is acting out blaming you for everything.  There's no way this isn't spilling over into her parenting - or lack thereof.  Yes, the marriage is in crisis and the only thing predictable is that she won't be predictable, but you need to ensure your parenting is not sabotaged.

Are your legal "ducks in a row"?  Have you had some legal consultations and chosen an experienced proactive attorney who has explained a variety of strategies for not only preserving a reasonable amount of your financial resources but, more importantly, your parenting?  You will need more than the typical forms filer and hand holder.

I hear you. Despite surviving so much, I'm *still* baffled how creative her ways are in dealing with this. If there's a 50/50 chance to choose something, you can bet all your money that she'll choose the opposite way of what would be meaningful, healthy or wise.
At this stage divorce would not surprise me at all. After all, running away and soothing her feelings now is much better than suffering the pain of facing personal problems and fears.
 
Tomorrow I will consult another lawyer. I already did few months ago but wasn't impressed with him. He didn't seem proactive.
Anyway, my W said she'd want to have an uncontested divorce. Her greatest fear is the alimony. She thinks I'll betray her or give her much less than needed. I never betrayed anyone for money in my life, she knows that, but it's a disorder at work. The way she perceives how much I should give as a parent is also disordered - but I'm not worried, that can be sorted out with a lawyer.

The goal for me is to have D stay 3 sleepover days per week.
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2022, 05:41:08 PM »

She has something on the autism spectrum that is delaying her.

I recall asking my son's pediatrician whether our toddler had some level of autism, he often wouldn't look me in the eyes.  Although I don't have a professional's opinion on this, I suspect it was a consequence of the parental discord.

Similarly, though it may never be proven, the parental discord in your family could be a factor with her 'something'.

The goal for me is to have D stay 3 sleepover days per week.

If you expect pushback, maybe up front seek 4 nights per week and then in negotiations you can fall back to 3 nights.  See?  Always ask for a little more so you have something to give up.  Otherwise if you seek 3 nights you may only get alternate weekends.
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2022, 05:56:41 PM »

I just wanted to pitch in here...

My BPD mother and father separated when I was very young. BPD mother didn't want to let him see me; she was The Mother ;).

Father pushed against her, on the advice of a psychologist. When he threatened a law court, she gave in right away... You see... Most pwBPD know they aren't completely fit. So any threat of bringing professional advisors and mediators in the fold usually scare them. You basically call their bluff. And if she does say : bring it on... Well, you will win. Because no courts will fight a fit father that wants to be present to their kids. Bad side to this is your D might need to get involved if it gets there... But I'd wager it wouldn't.

Also, we were doing one week, one week. I'd switch houses on the sunday. It honestly felt like less of a hustle to me as well... less travelling around, it was more fixed as a routine. I'd have two sets of clothes, didn't need to carry bags or anything... No good or wrong way to do it, but the more stability in the routine, the better, I think...

Good luck Manic Miner, not an easy situation to be in, co-parenting with a pwBPD.
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Manic Miner
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2022, 04:41:37 PM »

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your input here.

Today W brought our D for a sleepover, until Monday. A simple "how are you feeling?" resulted in another completely dysfunctional talk with my W.

I even laughed several times, I couldn't believe this was for real. She mostly talked with herself, telling me something that was clearly meant for her and not me. Wherever I tried something to add, I was immediately interrupted and confronted. Her empathy or slightest rational thinking has gone away. She tried to devalue me several times, but my skin is already thick enough that nothing really hit like before. Though I was kind of taken for a ride on a crazy train. Every single time I tried to steer discussion back to something more productive was met with huge resistance and refusal. She thrives on drama and one-sided views. Discussion, opinions, disagreements are taboo. That makes impossible a lot more harder to go for uncontested divorce.

Even my honest saying that I needed weeks to be ok and work on myself was met with invalidation and humiliation. She said "while you were healing yourself (said sarcastically), somebody had to work and tend our daughter". Adding "I've no doubt you will be okay, people like you always survive". I'm a mean, self-centered and manipulative person. At the end I was even accused that I prolonged our marriage, without asking for divorce right away. I manipulated and wasted her time, she said.

All in all, today's communication made me realize we are over for good. I don't want to be in this anymore. Life wasn't easy for her since she was little and that was always my weak spot. I always felt sorry because she suffered. But I'm not a therapist, nor a shrink.
Sooner this ends, the better. She's a deranged, impulsive woman. Stuck and enabled by her own emotionally dysfunctional parents. Funny how years ago, she was actively fighting against them, tried to be herself. But now she became as one.

You always become what you resist. The saying by Carl Jung What you resist, persists. What you embrace, dissolves - has never sounded more true.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 04:20:48 AM by Manic Miner » Logged
ForeverDad
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2022, 04:10:27 PM »

She said "while you were healing yourself (said sarcastically), somebody had to work and tend our daughter".

The logical response would have been to say, "Okay, our daughter can spend more time here." ... Yeah, like that would have gone over well.  If only.
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2022, 07:53:09 AM »


I'm a mean, self-centered and manipulative person. At the end I was even accused that I prolonged our marriage, without asking for divorce right away. I manipulated and wasted her time, she said.


This sounds very familiar Smiling (click to insert in post) I wonder if this is the kind of response that usually comes when we stop absorbing everything they say. A sign of desperation. Us not being totally devastated over their dissatisfaction with us makes them see us as evil.
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Manic Miner
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2022, 09:40:06 AM »

^ Of course. Every time they are not by themselves, they feel jealous and betrayed if you are. Consciously or not, they want to spill their misery to you. And when/if you are not receiving, they translate that as - you don't care, you are bad and mean.

Today W made even bigger drama.

Yesterday D&I went to our neighbours next door. We had a great time, eating pancakes. At the end of yesterday W texted me if we had a great day. I replied with "yeah we did, she's great, happy and asleep now".

However, our neighbour, oblivious of W's condition, texted W to say how they had a great time with us. Yep, you guessed it - I was accused of hiding D's whereabouts and misleading information. She started saying how enough was enough, I was doing that for some time (?), threatened that I will see D only after court meetings. That happened after I hung up my phone as W was yelling at me.

Tomorrow I will meet with a lawyer to see what I can do here. In the meantime, I wrote a nice message to W to validate her feelings and ease her guard a bit, if that's possible at this stage.
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Manic Miner
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2022, 03:53:49 AM »

Based on your experience, how often do you find a pwBPD to tell a lie? Is it a very common thing or only on certain occasions when they feel threatened?

At our vacation, a wave splashed our beach tent and possibly W's phone. I was moving our stuff from the tent and was laughing about the event. She was instantly triggered. When I asked why, she told me her phone was splashed. I told her there was nothing we could do now, I couldn't open it, it was already done, but I could see it in our apartment. I'm quite good with the electronics, it's my hobby.

She ghosted me and was angry for our entire time at the beach. On our return to apt. I asked her to give me the phone to take a look - she refused, but kept firing toxic bolts how I was neglectful and oblivious. She even raged and pushed me physically from the back, with all kind of insults. My laughing on the beach also triggered her as she told me I faked that to 'look good to the public', while she was struggling with the phone.

I asked her several times to give me the phone instead of yelling, but she refused - in fact she hid it somewhere.
Fast forward 1h, she pulled the phone out of somewhere and was theatrical. Like magic (sigh) it worked. Her phone was like new.

At our MC session I told T about this, her rage phase and all that happened. She kept silent, but uttered that she had to buy a new one after that incident. I didn't know that because we are separated now.

Few days ago I noticed her phone on the table - of course it was her old phone.
What really happened is what I suspected from the start - the wave barely touched it, without causing any damage. She knew that, but instead of apologizing, moving forward or explaining why she was afraid, she kept insisting the phone didn't work and went into anger and rage mode where gates of hell opened. What's even worse, she lied T and me on our session that she bought a new one - weeks later after that incident happened.

Why are they doing that? She could've remained silent at T, nobody forced her to say anything. Are they really that disabled that they must tell a lie to compensate the feeling of being responsible or ashamed? Are they even aware that they lie? And most importantly - should I ever point that out if I catch her in a lie or just move forward like nothing happened?
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2022, 05:55:17 AM »

Excerpt
Based on your experience, how often do you find a pwBPD to tell a lie? Is it a very common thing or only on certain occasions when they feel threatened?

Based on my experience this actually not happen very often in the grand scheme of things, a few times per week.  I find that my uBPDw goes out of her way to tell the truth, so she can be validated in her assertions.  However, when she does tell lies [my perspective], it is a distortion of the truth [from her perspective she is telling the truth], so there is some kernel of truth in it, which makes it so much more insidious.  It predominately happens on certain occasions when she gets triggered, which includes but not limited to being threatened, being overly tired, hangry, being physically ill [head ache, cold, flue, COVID, etc.], other conflicts in other interpersonal relationships [such as those at her work, church, and other civic activities, where she can't lash out without severe consequences, etc., etc., etc.

The situation that you described is more common with NPD than BPD from my understanding of it.
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2022, 03:40:07 PM »

I recall that during my separation, divorce and even a few years afterward she would make allegations yet phrase some as "my preschooler told me..."  Of course then the child had to be interrogated, hopefully in a roundabout way.

That was to make herself look "less bad" than me, she made more allegations than me.

Another incentive was to try to preserve her "public face".
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2022, 07:47:49 PM »

Just as it was for me when I was married and would spend time with any other people, ex uBPD wife has since the divorce taken a basic kernel of truth that involved me being with certain people with my kids and rant in an extremely self-righteous manner about how horrible I was to do so.  When you hear someone who is so certain get so angry, it can seem believable.

Like if people who didn’t know us overheard this type of rant, they would believe I was an idiot for spending my time with or exposing my kids to those “awful people.”

Her truth was The Truth.  It still is and will always be.  Even if it is an untruth or a clear half-truth.  It doesn’t matter.

My daughter has recently moved in with me full time to escape abuse from mother, most of which involves this gaslighting and other subtle abuse.  I hear that she continues to tell people that I’m a liar who has alienated my daughter from her.  Even her family doesn’t believe that, they instead think my daughter is too insensitive and not looking out for her “over-sensitive mother’s feelings.”  Mom’s fiancé is in on it and yet he has bitterly complained to me twice out in public that he cannot understand why my ex is so bitter and can’t move on. 

Don’t expect any of this to ever change.  Say little, be on defensive always, and don’t let it get to you.  One day you’ll find it comical and piteous instead of dark.
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« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2022, 04:50:03 AM »

Thanks for your response guys.

Regarding lies, I think NPD and BPD are closely related so the root cause is probably the same, though more obvious with NPD, yeah. I noticed NPD can lie at any time, if anything, to boost their ego, fame or coverups, while BPD lie when feeling bad/afraid/endangered - which can also be all the time if they are in a bad phase.

Speaking about my current relationship with W, it's been mostly neutral to bad.
I isolated two core issues: boundaries and impulsivity. That's like 98% of struggle in our relationship now.

We can be on a good terms and at the slightest rise of my boundaries, something she hasn't anticipated, thought or wanted, she gets furious and hugely impulsive. During her impulsive state, she can no longer think rationally at all, goes in the victim mode and accuses me of many things - from poor parenthood to being incredibly egoistic and self sufficient.
Last time I witnessed a verbal diarrhea in her messages - after every word she used another line. Text flowed without thinking or any care of the consequences.

I learned to announce things in advance, so she can plan ahead, but the result was mixed at best. Things she doesn't like she refuses to deal with or acknowledge until the last minute the boundary needs to be applied. And that's when those issues actually arise.

For example, I told her my plan for D sleepovers, based on a 2 week schedule I made in advance. I even asked her to think about it and share her thoughts. She said she would. She was kind and approachable, zero problems.
However, when 2nd week was about to get applied, she was so negative and furious, forgot everything we agreed and started calling me things I said above. All because she never cared to actually think about my schedule I gave her before and was triggered because that didn't work out for her. She constructed her response in such a way that no compromise could be found, it was entirely dysfunctional and acted out like it was the greatest decision I/we have ever done in our lives.

As soon as she reaches that impulsive state, there's like a band on the eyes, I can see in her messages that rationality is gone and I'm dealing with accomplished boundary breaker that uses drama and self-victimization to get better.
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2022, 12:35:57 PM »

Directed to Torched:

Just as it was for me when I was married and would spend time with any other people, ex uBPD wife has since the divorce taken a basic kernel of truth that involved me being with certain people with my kids and rant in an extremely self-righteous manner about how horrible I was to do so.  When you hear someone who is so certain get so angry, it can seem believable.

Like if people who didn’t know us overheard this type of rant, they would believe I was an idiot for spending my time with or exposing my kids to those “awful people.”

Her truth was The Truth.  It still is and will always be.  Even if it is an untruth or a clear half-truth.  It doesn’t matter.

Agreed, when the borderline splits, and paints you black, if I were to believe half the crap spewing out of my uBPDw, I would hate me too when she was splitting.  They are so emotionally dysregulated that they actually believe the crap that they are saying as it has a nugget of truth to it.

My daughter has recently moved in with me full time to escape abuse from mother, most of which involves this gaslighting and other subtle abuse.  I hear that she continues to tell people that I’m a liar who has alienated my daughter from her.  Even her family doesn’t believe that, they instead think my daughter is too insensitive and not looking out for her “over-sensitive mother’s feelings.”  Mom’s fiancé is in on it and yet he has bitterly complained to me twice out in public that he cannot understand why my ex is so bitter and can’t move on. 

Don’t expect any of this to ever change.  Say little, be on defensive always, and don’t let it get to you.  One day you’ll find it comical and piteous instead of dark.

Unless your ex-wife become 'self-aware' this is unlikely to ever change, especially ash she has replenished her borderline/narcissistic supply with a fiancé; however, the fiancé seems to still be oblivious to this but has seen the giant red-flags, yet chooses to ignore them -- doesn't he realize the way she is treating you, will be the way that she will be treating him when it is his turn?

With regards to your daughter, make sure she is in Therapy for this [unless she is fully against it like mine is; however, she has had forced therapy for her AN], she is the more innocent victim of all of this.  It is not your daughter's place to look out for her 'over-sensitive mother's feelings' -- this is called parentification and is extremely emotionally damaging -- my daughter also took on this role, and it is not good -- she just turned 16, and our therapist commended us earlier today on this topic about removing the influence of our toxic relationship on her.

-----

Manic Miner,

Regarding lies, I think NPD and BPD are closely related so the root cause is probably the same, though more obvious with NPD, yeah. I noticed NPD can lie at any time, if anything, to boost their ego, fame or coverups, while BPD lie when feeling bad/afraid/endangered - which can also be all the time if they are in a bad phase.
I agree, previous to my current relationship of 22 years with my uBPDw (married 20), I had a relationship with an exNPD/BPDgf - I agree with your assessment after reflecting on both of these relationships.

Speaking about my current relationship with W, it's been mostly neutral to bad.
I isolated two core issues: boundaries and impulsivity. That's like 98% of struggle in our relationship now.

Boundaries, that's a biggie.  I have installed a nuclear response - call the authorities on domestic violence and suicide attempts -- I have committed to no longer handling that myself.  For splitting rages / I don't JADE - all the T's have my back on this one [her individual T, my individual T - former and current, and couple's T - former and current]

We can be on a good terms and at the slightest rise of my boundaries, something she hasn't anticipated, thought or wanted, she gets furious and hugely impulsive. During her impulsive state, she can no longer think rationally at all, goes in the victim mode and accuses me of many things - from poor parenthood to being incredibly egoistic and self sufficient.
Last time I witnessed a verbal diarrhea in her messages - after every word she used another line. Text flowed without thinking or any care of the consequences.

I call that splitting.  Borderlines, have no verbal filter, they wear their emotions on their sleeve, and will tell you whatever pops in their head with no consequences at all.  Prior to things turning around for me [ultra rare exception to the rule] I recorded her at her taunting of her splitting, suicidal ideation, admitting to domestic violence, raging, etc.  It wasn't pretty; however, if it does go to court, it will help convince the court of your side of the story.  So, if you guys haven't already done so, please document -- just be aware of the local wire tapping laws and follow them, they vary from location to location.

I learned to announce things in advance, so she can plan ahead, but the result was mixed at best. Things she doesn't like she refuses to deal with or acknowledge until the last minute the boundary needs to be applied. And that's when those issues actually arise.
The 'seed planting tool' [announce in advance] only works, if she is not overly objectionable to this --  even when she was objectionable, she tolerated with less of a rage than it would otherwise had been.

For example, I told her my plan for D sleepovers, based on a 2 week schedule I made in advance. I even asked her to think about it and share her thoughts. She said she would. She was kind and approachable, zero problems.
However, when 2nd week was about to get applied, she was so negative and furious, forgot everything we agreed and started calling me things I said above. All because she never cared to actually think about my schedule I gave her before and was triggered because that didn't work out for her. She constructed her response in such a way that no compromise could be found, it was entirely dysfunctional and acted out like it was the greatest decision I/we have ever done in our lives.

For that particular scenario, I would modify your behavior in the following way.  Repeat your plan to her, every single time you communicated, daily if necessary.  If your communication in that time frame is zero, remind her with text messages or e-mails [so it is in writing - also, good documentation].  Also, record the pickup with your cell phone, so when it does go south, you have evidence for the court of her behaviors.  It sucks, but it is a necessity.

As soon as she reaches that impulsive state, there's like a band on the eyes, I can see in her messages that rationality is gone and I'm dealing with accomplished boundary breaker that uses drama and self-victimization to get better.
When she irrationally splits, this is the hallmark of a borderline -- the only way to deal with it, is record it and let the courts decide what is best, and not to engage [any more than necessary], let her proverbially hang herself with her own actions that you are recording either overtly or covertly.
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2023, 08:09:13 AM »

I think I could get a PhD in astrophysics far easier than reach any sort of agreement with W.

- She asks me if I can do something for D while already having predetermined mind for herself and the answer. Saying "no" or "let me think about it" doesn't exist.
- Trying to reach a compromise is like pushing the boulder uphill.
- Tremendous amount of time and energy wasted going back and forth with pointless messages.
- Eventually if I get 50% of a compromise I feel like I climbed Mt. Everest.

On the other hand when she reaches out for a compromise for D, in a sweet voice, I mostly say yes, if I can manage it. Why? Because I care for my D. And if I can do something for her, I will.

But sadly, this doesn't even come across as "favour for a favour" to my W. What is meant for her isn't meant for me.

Treating me as a 2nd class citizen, fully entitled and assertive. I don't say anything bad, trying to be diplomatic and usually comply because of D. Also W has a car and I don't. So I am at her mercy to drive our D to my place as that saves me almost 2h in public transportation.
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2023, 03:16:33 PM »

I think I could get a PhD in astrophysics far easier than reach any sort of agreement with W.
It sure seems like it.  However, once you figure out the Borderline psyche you can manipulate the situation to a certain degree with setting up some firm boundaries -- it all depends on which battles you choose to engage in with your pwBPD.

- She asks me if I can do something for D while already having predetermined mind for herself and the answer. Saying "no" or "let me think about it" doesn't exist.
- Trying to reach a compromise is like pushing the boulder uphill.
- Tremendous amount of time and energy wasted going back and forth with pointless messages.
- Eventually if I get 50% of a compromise I feel like I climbed Mt. Everest.


Same here; however, more often than not, it is her way, or no way, I rarely get any kind of % compromise, and if and when I do, she wants to do another compromise using her original position, and the previously agreed to compromise as my position. 

For each issue, I need to decide if it is worth my effort or just let her have her way using my version of a cost-benefit analysis.  If there is no room for compromise, I use the 'procrastination tool', I don't answer her demands of being voluntold by her, so she thinks we have an agreement, when in fact we don't.  I just procrastinate on whatever she wants to get done, that I don't want to get done, when she refuses to compromise, and I hope it eventually gets forgotten. 

Paragraph header (click to insert in post) However, this 'procrastination tool' is the Gottman relationship killer of - 'stonewalling'; however, this tool [different name] is described in "Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad as an effective way to manage the borderline's inability to compromise.

On the other hand when she reaches out for a compromise for D, in a sweet voice, I mostly say yes, if I can manage it. Why? Because I care for my D. And if I can do something for her, I will.
Me too, I usually talk to my D(16) for clarification on her needs, and then do it for my D [the 'just do it' tool from the aforementioned book], and my D is savvy enough to go along with it, as it usually benefits my D the most - I understand your situation is a bit different as your D is on the Autism spectrum; however, my D has her own mental health issues and can relate with Autism and is ultra-high-functioning.  Is your D high-functioning? 

Similar type handling for my S(11) who is younger, and more immature; however, I have equipped him with some age appropriate tools for him to manage his uBPDm [as a survival tool to cope, which he has used many times to great effect at his elementary school to the point of amazing the educators and we get amazing feedback from the school, to which my wife takes the credit, a happy wife, makes a happier life.  The elementary school is one of two in the county where there are children that are on the spectrum (Pyramid) being mainstreamed at his elementary school]. 

However, keep in mind you need to balance your responsibility as a parent, against the needs and wants of each child and against the demands of an uncompromising compromise [yes, it is an oxymoron] of the pwBPD.  For issues that cannot be resolved between you and your pwBPD; T's are a great way to arbitrate and enforce compromises that would otherwise be fraught with an excessive amount of conflict.  Don't get me wrong, there still is conflict when doing it in this manner, just less of it, since the T is an impartial judge in the matter.

But sadly, this doesn't even come across as "favour for a favour" to my W. What is meant for her isn't meant for me.
There is no rhyme or reason as to my uBPDw does her version of compromise which is 'do I get my way or not' - the 'not' is bumping up against my boundary.  However, with T my wife has had some improvement, and I go out of my way to compliment her when she does something good in the way of compromise.

Treating me as a 2nd class citizen, fully entitled and assertive. I don't say anything bad, trying to be diplomatic and usually comply because of D. Also W has a car and I don't. So I am at her mercy to drive our D to my place as that saves me almost 2h in public transportation.
I too feel devalued [as a 2nd class citizen] when this happens.  We still live together, so I can ensure the children's welfare, so transportation is not an issue.  Have you considered an e-bike or e-scooters - they are a very effective and fun form of transportation in metropolitan areas [except during inclement weather]?  I have an e-bike, and it is effective in rural hilly areas.  Good for running errands in a timely manner.

Now that I have set up boundaries with a couple's T, it is getting better.
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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2023, 07:05:56 AM »

However, once you figure out the Borderline psyche you can manipulate the situation to a certain degree with setting up some firm boundaries -- it all depends on which battles you choose to engage in with your pwBPD.

I tried to decipher, decode or hack a borderline psyche, at least to have more peace of mind for myself. But the results so far have been mixed at best, as it's highly unstable and volatile.

For example, my W can say "D is old enough to spend more days with you, she's not a baby to always need a mother" then after several days she will completely change the wording and say "I'd like to spend time with D more, I'm her mother". Or it might be that she says "see you on Sunday" then just drops a text on Saturday like "D is ready to come at your place, we will come soon".

If I just try to mention that she said something different week or day ago, I will be dismissed as not true, not valid, or persuasive. Because that's not true for BPDs in that moment.

And that's how it goes. I have to wriggle for something that healthy people would find absolutely no issues with. Or would be done in one sentence exchanged. No wall of texts for such simple matters.

Excerpt
For each issue, I need to decide if it is worth my effort or just let her have her way using my version of a cost-benefit analysis.  If there is no room for compromise, I use the 'procrastination tool', I don't answer her demands of being voluntold by her, so she thinks we have an agreement, when in fact we don't.  I just procrastinate on whatever she wants to get done, that I don't want to get done, when she refuses to compromise, and I hope it eventually gets forgotten.  

When we still used to live together I used that 'tool' as well. But then I was accused of procrastination.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) She's incredibly smart and that makes even more difficult to manage. She foresees a lot - of course, things she needs. Everything else is dismissed, even 1+1=2 if that's not what she needs or feels at the moment.

Excerpt
Me too, I usually talk to my D(16) for clarification on her needs, and then do it for my D [the 'just do it' tool from the aforementioned book], and my D is savvy enough to go along with it, as it usually benefits my D the most - I understand your situation is a bit different as your D is on the Autism spectrum; however, my D has her own mental health issues and can relate with Autism and is ultra-high-functioning.  Is your D high-functioning?  

Yes, the fact that you can openly talk and clarify with your D can be a lifesaver and a reality check.
Mine is high functioning in many ways, but that's not the thing we can discuss clearly. For example, life would be far easier for me if she could just tell her mom exactly what she wants or be more explicit what she does or doesn't need. While she does say what she wants, it's not that explicit and unambiguous enough that is needed when pwBPD is involved. So it's prone to misinterpretation and manipulation on W's side.

Excerpt
T's are a great way to arbitrate and enforce compromises that would otherwise be fraught with an excessive amount of conflict.  Don't get me wrong, there still is conflict when doing it in this manner, just less of it, since the T is an impartial judge in the matter.
 However, with T my wife has had some improvement, and I go out of my way to compliment her when she does something good in the way of compromise.

It's good that your W is responding to therapy well enough! That's encouraging. My W left marriage counseling months ago, so T is hardly an option for us anymore. Though I might insist on future counseling for parental guiding if something bad emerges on the horizon.

Excerpt
Have you considered an e-bike or e-scooters - they are a very effective and fun form of transportation in metropolitan areas [except during inclement weather]?  I have an e-bike, and it is effective in rural hilly areas.  Good for running errands in a timely manner.

Yeah, I have e-scooter. It's a real time saver for me. D and I ride it together very often too. I also ride a regular bike wherever I can, but distance between my home and W's parents house is quite long, so no e-scooter could help there, sadly.
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2023, 02:47:52 PM »

One thing I learned, if my ex ever granted me more time with my child, I never ever got upset at the extra time.  Sure, it may have put me in a bind with the surprise timing, but I almost never refused.  At first I had to settle for "traded" time, gain some here and lose some there, but over time I managed to morph it into "extra" time.

In time I became accustomed to ex's ever-changing perceptions.  I called them "predictably unpredictable".  There are whirling patterns to be seen often but they still could catch me off guard.

You can't win everything, so choose your battles wisely.  The overall "war" (parenting struggle) is not lost when relatively minor battles are lost.
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« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2023, 07:54:52 PM »

In time I became accustomed to ex's ever-changing perceptions.  I called them "predictably unpredictable".  There are whirling patterns to be seen often but they still could catch me off guard.

You can't win everything, so choose your battles wisely.  The overall "war" (parenting struggle) is not lost when relatively minor battles are lost.
'Predictably unpredictable' does indeed come to mind, you are at the whim of their emotional storms and relative calms.  However, if you can read their current emotional state, it makes it easier to predict the unpredictable - it takes a lot of practice along with 'radical acceptance'. 

For me 'radical acceptance is where I know she is going to lose her stuff, so I now know she is going to lose her stuff [I just don't know when, this removes half of the unstable component as I am compensating for it], so I don't get upset when she loses her stuff [so I remove half of the volatile component too for similar reasoning], so I don't triggered when she loses her stuff, so I can respond in a cool, calm, and ultra-rational manner to take advantage of the situation when she is 'that way'.

For me, using 'radical acceptance' reduces the highly unstable and volatile' components to make the unmanageable more manageable.


I tried to decipher, decode or hack a borderline psyche, at least to have more peace of mind for myself. But the results so far have been mixed at best, as it's highly unstable and volatile.


For example, my W can say "D is old enough to spend more days with you, she's not a baby to always need a mother" then after several days she will completely change the wording and say "I'd like to spend time with D more, I'm her mother". Or it might be that she says "see you on Sunday" then just drops a text on Saturday like "D is ready to come at your place, we will come soon".
To me, my children come first, so I will alter my behavior to accomodate it.  You just need to have the predictably unpredictable mindset in the back of your mind in order to accomodate it.  This is fine, if you are separated single; however, if there is a multi-person dynamic going on, possibly in the future, this will make things much more complicated - cross that bridge when you get to it.

If I just try to mention that she said something different week or day ago, I will be dismissed as not true, not valid, or persuasive. Because that's not true for BPDs in that moment.
Gaslighting comes with the territory, they don't mean to do it, but they do it for the reason you just stated.  Use 'radical acceptance' to manage this part. 

And that's how it goes. I have to wriggle for something that healthy people would find absolutely no issues with. Or would be done in one sentence exchanged. No wall of texts for such simple matters.
Comes with the territory.  Pick your battles wisely.  Make concessions you don't mind doing and if she is lucent enough, use it as bargaining power; however, when there is no wiggle room on your moral compass, stand your ground. 

When we still used to live together I used that 'tool' as well. But then I was accused of procrastination.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) She's incredibly smart and that makes even more difficult to manage. She foresees a lot - of course, things she needs. Everything else is dismissed, even 1+1=2 if that's not what she needs or feels at the moment.
Mine is valedictorian smart.  However, common sense is not her strong suit.  I too am accused of procrastination; however, I let the accusation roll of my back and not bother me as other more pressing issues come up for her. 

Yes, the fact that you can openly talk and clarify with your D can be a lifesaver and a reality check.
Mine is high functioning in many ways, but that's not the thing we can discuss clearly. For example, life would be far easier for me if she could just tell her mom exactly what she wants or be more explicit what she does or doesn't need. While she does say what she wants, it's not that explicit and unambiguous enough that is needed when pwBPD is involved. So it's prone to misinterpretation and manipulation on W's side.

If you can work with your D to provide for her needs both realized and unrealized.  I also have given each of my children, age appropriate tools for dealing with their mother.  The conundrum of doing this, is when you do something to be a parent to them and set a boundary or enforce a boundary, and they don't want to do it, or don't get their way, then they also use those very same tools against you too, which you have to have some additional mitigation strategies.

It's good that your W is responding to therapy well enough! That's encouraging. My W left marriage counseling months ago, so T is hardly an option for us anymore. Though I might insist on future counseling for parental guiding if something bad emerges on the horizon.
Well, she is responding, but not in the manner I would like  It is very similar to what I mentioned regarding the tools for my children in the above paragraph, my wife is also getting tools too from the T that she can weaponize against me; however, it is a net positive.  I found the key is to educate yourself to the clinician level, it is a full time job and requires several hours per day.  Learn to recognize the behaviors, and learn to adapt and compensate.  Also learn the tools how to communicate with a high conflict individual.  Also, figure out what you are doing, no matter how rational your behavior is to trigger your pwBPD, listen to their irrational accusations, and learn what makes them triggered, and don't do it, even if it seems innocent to you [assuming it doesn't cross a boundary of yours].  To me it has become a bit of a game, where she tries to manipulate, and I dodge her manipulation in a tactful way, and stay focused on what needs to be done.  I have used the 'seed' tool, where I plant and idea one week, then I circle back and implement it the following week.  My wife also tries to do this; however, hers is usually distorted, and I can logically poke holes init.

Also my wife brought me to therapy, to get me fixed, so, she is learning tools to fix me - these same tools will also fix her.  So, I don't mind being accused of stuff in a gaslighting kind of way, if it gets her to be better.  I have developed a 'thick skin' through a strong sense of self, to deal with these seeming insane accusations. 

I hope some of my thought processes has helped you, in figuring out how to better manage the unmanageable.  It is kind of like deflecting the major damage, but accepting minor damage - a very distorted cost-benefit analysis.

Good luck, and take care.
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