NC Approach Validated

[Oh Brother]

Hello BPD Family,

Fourteen months ago I participated in a thread here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=350904.msg13156013#msg13156013 about NC/LC approaches to pwBPD, which I use with my uBPDs.

Now I have an update.  For a variety of reasons, this fall I began seeing a very experienced and qualified psychiatrist who is familiar with my uBPDs's behavior and its consequences.  At the end of several sessions spent relating my uBPDs's actions over the last several years, I had two questions for the psychiatrist: 1) is there any possibility my uBPDs might ever change, show remorse, take ownership of her contributions, apologize; and 2) how should I approach / handle the relationship?

The psychiatrist's answers were very impactful and validating to me.  They were: 1) "she has woven a narrative that helps her make sense of her feelings and events in her life.  That narrative is integral to her sense of self.  At her age [61] she is not malleable.  For her, there are good people and bad people."  In other words, it is exceedingly unlikely that she will ever change.

And 2) "You should have NO exposure to her.  Any exposure you have will only add fuel to her fire, regardless of whether you behave like Jesus Christ or the devil incarnate."  In other words, my psychiatrist confirmed, validated, and recommended that the NC approach I've been using is the appropriate choice.

Of course it's all very sad.  But I will not subject myself or my family to false hope or further abuse from my uBPDs, about which I've posted in several other previous threads in this very valuable forum.

Now it's just a matter of time ticking along until my uBPDs and I have to deal with each other over our parents' eventual passings, services, and estates (the latter of which I'll likely use a lawyer for to avoid interacting with my uBPDs).  After those events, it's probably NC for the rest of our lives.

Cheers.

[Couscous]

Thanks for sharing what your psychiatrist said.

she has woven a narrative that helps her make sense of her feelings and events in her life.  That narrative is integral to her sense of self.

^^^This has been the sense I have been getting with with respect to two of my siblings. They both cut me off after I (unwittingly) challenged their narratives. I now understand why this was so threatening to them -- I threatened their very sense of self.

I wonder what will become of your sister when your father passes on. It's possible that he could be unintentionally enabling her, and BPDs can change when they no longer have someone enabling them, but perhaps not after a certain age. It's interesting that she targets both you and your mother which makes me wonder if there may be some enmeshment dynamics in your family. It certainly sounds like your father could be enmeshed with her on the basis of her idealization of him and devaluation of your mother. If she sees you as your mother's "ally" so to speak, this could possibly be what's behind her hostility towards you. Perhaps that's something that might be worth investigating in order to help you make better sense of how she came to develop BPD symptoms in the first place.

[Oh Brother]

I wonder what will become of your sister when your father passes on. It's possible that he could be unintentionally enabling her, and BPDs can change when they no longer have someone enabling them, but perhaps not after a certain age.

My sister has indicated many times that she is likely to commit suicide after our father passes.  He is the only person in our FOO with whom she has not destroyed her relationship.  He is aware of her fragility and tries not to alienate her.  I don't know if that's enablement or not.  She idealizes him; he is one of the "good" people in her worldview.  So he doesn't experience her destructive behaviors.  She only shows him her good side.  She has made it her mission in life to be his caregiver whether he wants it or not.  When he's gone, so will be her main reason for living.

It's interesting that she targets both you and your mother which makes me wonder if there may be some enmeshment dynamics in your family. It certainly sounds like your father could be enmeshed with her on the basis of her idealization of him and devaluation of your mother. If she sees you as your mother's "ally" so to speak, this could possibly be what's behind her hostility towards you. Perhaps that's something that might be worth investigating in order to help you make better sense of how she came to develop BPD symptoms in the first place.

Our parents are divorced.  Our father has remarried but our mother has not.  We have no other siblings.

From what I know of enmeshment dynamics, I don't think it applies to my FOO.  I've definitely recognized it in other families, e.g. some former neighbors of mine.

Another thing my psychiatrist said is that for my sister, there are "good people" and "bad people."  Our father is one of the "good people."  Our mother is one of the "bad people."  I think this is how my sister's BPD "splitting" characteristic manifests.  What has happened over the last 4.5 years is that my sister has lumped me in with our mother.  I think she is in the process of transferring some of her animus towards our mother onto me.  I'm definitely at the top of her list of "bad people" now.  She's written to me that I am her worst enemy.

Because of her animus towards our mother, and resulting estrangement between them, she has created factionalization in our FOO.  She has knowingly put me in the position of being our mother's sole caregiver, while she focuses on our father and depends on his favors for her.

Her hostility towards me is originally based on her perception that our mother favors me over her, and differing views we have of our father's health and consequences of that.  She has also allowed her animus towards our mother to affect her relationship with me, which has created tension.

Regarding how she came to develop BPD symptoms in the first place, I believe that BPD runs in our mother's family, particularly within female members.

[SaltyDawg]

I am going to pushback on the 61 year age that you have mentioned.

While exceedingly unlikely, change is always possible.  My uBPDw is 51 [just north of the  50 that mental health professionals use as a cut-off], and is changing for the better.

This is not recommended by anyone, except me, as it is an 'intervention' which has a 90-99+% chance for failure depending on your pwBPD's personality.  In my humble opinion, it is like a hail mary pass at the end of a football game with a remote chance to tie the game, in order to extend the game into overtime.  This is only the beginning of change that will need constant attention to make a meaningful difference.

This is the exception, and is exceedingly rare [from what I have been told], and from my understanding will only work on true borderlines who are not narcissistic in nature with a good moral compass.

I personally believe the key is to make your pwBPD become 'self-aware.'  The more conventional they are, the easier (I should say 'less difficult') this will be if they have more obvious anti-social behaviors that you can reflect back to them that they know is not quite right (e.g. suicide attempts, rages, behaviors of loved ones around them, etc.) - make a list as large as you can, so it will overwhelm them when you present it all at once - hopefully you won't trigger them, so it will have to be in a setting where they need to control themselves [to prove you wrong], such as in front of their Therapist, like I did.  This is different for each person, and will usually involve some sort of collapse of their narrative that they have woven in order for them to self-reflect on, you need to be there to catch them, and guide them when this happens.  Keep gently poking holes in their narrative to wear down their narrative.  Learn their personality, learn how they think, and maneuver yourself to affect change, this takes a lot of effort and time and will not be successful the first time you try it.  Repeat to wear down their defenses.  You will also likely lose 'favorite person' status, so there will be an emotional cost there too, but this is a net positive as you will no longer be enmeshed with as much drama.

Look at some of my other posts as I continue in this journey which is continuing to show more promise; however, it is still too early to tell if this progress will be permanent.

If they are in therapy, and you know who their therapist is, share your insight with their T.  A good T will utilize this and adjust their therapy accordingly, even if the T cannot communicate back with you [the T has to have permission from the patient to do this, and if they don't, it will be a one-way street with no feedback to you], they will read your perspective, and if appropriate adjust the therapy to accomodate for it.  This works, I've done it.

[Riv3rW0lf]

SaltyDawg,

I am glad this process has worked out for you and your wife, and that things are improving for you both.

I'd like to mitigate your point though : not everyone is in a position to instigate change in a person with BPD.

As a daughter of a mother with BPD, my own condition and triggers I need to manage in her presence, as well as the dynamic of power (parent-child) of our relationship, makes it incredibly hard to get to her. She also lumped me in with my father as a bad person, which increases the unhealthy projections she puts on me when I don't act the way she wants. Simply put: I had more impact on her when I went no contact, than I ever did confronting her.

As her sister, I suspect Oh Brother is also in an awkward position to instigate change. The dynamic is simply not the same as husband-wife, and it can lower the impact and influence one would have on the pwBPD.

Oh Brother

In the end, you have to find what works for you, what makes you feel more at peace. For me as well, No Contact gave me strength, enabled me to work on being my best self. It increased my self awareness. I think someday I might break no contact, but not just yet.

It is all a process, one you have to do on your own terms and time.

One of the sentences my T has told me that helped the most is : "Some things are unforgivable." It gave me back my power to choose to forgive or not. And I was suddenly allowed to live through all my rage, my anger, my hate. I was allowed to direct it back at her (figuratively). And it freed me. I was allowed to own my storyline. I have a story, I have a truth, and I have a right to it.

Now... I found I have forgiven her. It's the irony of it.

It is ok to be no contact, and it is well possible your sister won't change. Or at least, that helping her change is not your responsibility, and you have a right to protect yourself, and to take a step back.

What I'd say is : being flexible is key. Things are a certain way now. They might change later. It is all a process.

I am grateful you found a therapist that is helping you, and that you are making peace and finding what works for you.

 

[SaltyDawg]

RW, I agree, I was offering up an alternative to consider.  In most cases NC works better, but not all.

[Couscous]

Similar to SawltyDawg, I have also been attempting to avoid NC with my brother who has lumped me in with my father, and for a several years now I have been "all bad" he cut contact. He would sporadically reconnect with me and I would become his favorite person for a few days, but invariably, something would trigger him and he would paint me black again while I would protest and JADE.

Then I did something different. A couple of months ago he called me and before long began yelling at me, and I'm not sure what came over me, but for the first time ever, I hung up on him. Because I didn't do this to punish him, I immediately texted to tell him that although I wasn't available to be raged at I would be quite happy to resume our conversation when he was calm. The effect was immediate. He responded sheepishly with a few defensive texts, and then was silent. Then he texted me a few weeks ago, and before long something set him off, and he threatened to cut me off. I told him that I was no longer interested in riding this merry-go-round and that it would be for the best if he no longer contacted me. I was genuinely prepared to walk away from the relationship at that moment, and I think he sensed this because he immediately started back-pedaling, and we have been on good terms since then. Of course, it has only been a few weeks, but what's important is that I have managed to break the old pattern of JADEing so I am cautiously optimistic that we might have finally turned a corner in our relationship.

[Oh Brother]

I am going to pushback on the 61 year age that you have mentioned.

That is fair.

While exceedingly unlikely, change is always possible.  My uBPDw is 51 [just north of the  50 that mental health professionals use as a cut-off], and is changing for the better.

I am happy for you.

This is the exception, and is exceedingly rare [from what I have been told], and from my understanding will only work on true borderlines who are not narcissistic in nature with a good moral compass.

My sister has a good moral compass, but also exhibits vulnerable narcissism co-morbid with her BPD, in my opinion.

I personally believe the key is to make your pwBPD become 'self-aware.'  The more conventional they are, the easier (I should say 'less difficult') this will be if they have more obvious anti-social behaviors that you can reflect back to them that they know is not quite right (e.g. suicide attempts, rages, behaviors of loved ones around them, etc.) - make a list as large as you can, so it will overwhelm them when you present it all at once - hopefully you won't trigger them, so it will have to be in a setting where they need to control themselves [to prove you wrong], such as in front of their Therapist, like I did.  This is different for each person, and will usually involve some sort of collapse of their narrative that they have woven in order for them to self-reflect on, you need to be there to catch them, and guide them when this happens.  Keep gently poking holes in their narrative to wear down their narrative.  Learn their personality, learn how they think, and maneuver yourself to affect change, this takes a lot of effort and time and will not be successful the first time you try it.  Repeat to wear down their defenses.  You will also likely lose 'favorite person' status, so there will be an emotional cost there too, but this is a net positive as you will no longer be enmeshed with as much drama.

Presenting my sister with a list of her obvious anti-social behaviors will backfire.  She will perceive that as an attempt on my part to discredit her.  And we're a long way from joint therapy.  Her destructive behaviors are separate from her woven narrative.  The behaviors include splitting, raging, hoarding, self-mutilation, suicide threats, statutory harassment, and acting like everything is ok (never clearing the air about past behavior).  The woven narrative involves perception of mistreatment by family members, assumption of innocence and infallibility on her part, exaggeration of our father's health conditions and anxiety over that, and other threads and patterns.  I agree that getting her to unweave her narrative, and weave a different one more in harmony with other FOO members' reality and lived experience, is key to healing.  But I don't think confronting her with a list of her destructive behaviors will bring that about.

Very very recently there is some indication that she may be becoming more self-aware.  She now recognizes her emotions can become dysregulated, and she is studying brain chemistry and inherited trauma response.  But she has a long way to come from anosognosia to full recognition of her disorders and their impacts.

If they are in therapy, and you know who their therapist is, share your insight with their T.  A good T will utilize this and adjust their therapy accordingly, even if the T cannot communicate back with you [the T has to have permission from the patient to do this, and if they don't, it will be a one-way street with no feedback to you], they will read your perspective, and if appropriate adjust the therapy to accomodate for it.  This works, I've done it.

She claims to be in therapy but I don't know who her therapist is, nor am I confident her therapist is qualified and experienced enough to handle a case as complex as hers.

Again I am happy for you for the progress in your pwBPD, and thank you for sharing your experience and suggestions.  Cheers.

[Oh Brother]

... not everyone is in a position to instigate change in a person with BPD.
...
I suspect Oh Brother is also in an awkward position to instigate change [in his sister].

Hello Riv3rW0lf, and thank you for chiming in.  I agree with you: from what I've read in this forum and elsewhere, the pwBPD has to be the instigator of change in themselves.  Nobody else can be that instigator.

In my case I delivered an ultimatum to my uBPDs - call it setting a boundary, to make it more palatable.  I went NC with her over two years ago, after she publicly declared we were estranged.  In the meantime she has broken our estrangement a few times when it suits her, to lash out at me with anger.  As a rule I ignore those communications and don't respond.  But on one such occasion about 1.5 years ago, I was sufficiently triggered to respond, and I told her to get help or leave me and my family alone forever.  I don't know if that ultimatum/boundary will ever bear fruit.

In the end, you have to find what works for you, what makes you feel more at peace. For me as well, No Contact gave me strength, enabled me to work on being my best self. It increased my self awareness. I think someday I might break no contact, but not just yet.

It is all a process, one you have to do on your own terms and time.

I've gone through a couple evolutions in my relationship with my uBPDs over the last five years.  Before it dawned on me that her behaviors might be caused by disorders, I spent a lot of time and energy arguing with her over issues of mutual concern, and I was exasperated by her emotional intensity, misplaced emphasis, historical baggage, and dread for the future she brought into the discussions.  Then I realized she is not necessarily logical and rational in the same way I think I am, and she is much more emotionally intense.  That was a great relief to me; it allowed me to realize her behavior was caused by her neurology, and allowed me to not get as drawn in, and keep her strident missives at a distance.

But then things got more intense.  She became more openly hostile, began a defamation campaign against me within my family, and began committing statutory domestic abuse against me via statutory harassment.  I had to adopt an NC approach in self defense, and serve her with a cease and desist letter.  For the sake of my own mental health, I could no longer afford to be affected by her attacks, let alone invest in responding.  Writing her off allowed me to regain time, space, energy, peace, calm, clarity, control, and happiness.

One of the sentences my T has told me that helped the most is : "Some things are unforgivable." It gave me back my power to choose to forgive or not. And I was suddenly allowed to live through all my rage, my anger, my hate. I was allowed to direct it back at her (figuratively). And it freed me. I was allowed to own my storyline. I have a story, I have a truth, and I have a right to it.

Now... I found I have forgiven her. It's the irony of it.

That is a powerful statement by your T.  I have certainly felt that way about a few very egregious things my uBPDs has done.  And yes, I have my own story, my own truth, my own reality, my own lived experience, and it is all completely valid, and it is my god-given right to represent it confidently.  That is what my T means by being authentic to one's self, and that is what he advises in relating to my uBPDs.

And it is indeed ironic.  I can see the irony.  Just last night I began a review of the whole last 4.5-year saga with my uBPDs and major events in it and communications about those events, and I found myself thinking, "OK, that's how she experienced these things.  Her reactions were destructive, but she's wired to experience and remember life emotionally."  I don't know that I'm ready to forgive yet, because of the degree of her destructiveness, and because she has continued it as recently as this weekend.  But I can see that it's a process.

It is ok to be no contact, and it is well possible your sister won't change. Or at least, that helping her change is not your responsibility, and you have a right to protect yourself, and to take a step back.

What I'd say is : being flexible is key. Things are a certain way now. They might change later. It is all a process.

I am grateful you found a therapist that is helping you, and that you are making peace and finding what works for you.

Good talk.  Cheers.

[Oh Brother]

Then I did something different. A couple of months ago he called me and before long began yelling at me, and I'm not sure what came over me, but for the first time ever, I hung up on him. Because I didn't do this to punish him, I immediately texted to tell him that although I wasn't available to be raged at I would be quite happy to resume our conversation when he was calm. The effect was immediate. He responded sheepishly with a few defensive texts, and then was silent. Then he texted me a few weeks ago, and before long something set him off, and he threatened to cut me off. I told him that I was no longer interested in riding this merry-go-round and that it would be for the best if he no longer contacted me. I was genuinely prepared to walk away from the relationship at that moment, and I think he sensed this because he immediately started back-pedaling, and we have been on good terms since then. Of course, it has only been a few weeks, but what's important is that I have managed to break the old pattern of JADEing so I am cautiously optimistic that we might have finally turned a corner in our relationship.

Good work Couscous!  Cheers.

[SaltyDawg]

Very very recently there is some indication that she may be becoming more self-aware.  She now recognizes her emotions can become dysregulated, and she is studying brain chemistry and inherited trauma response.  But she has a long way to come from anosognosia to full recognition of her disorders and their impacts.

This is a good start, even if this is in the wrong direction, it is still a direction of change.  If the net result is an improvement, then it is good.  The only way you can go when you are on the bottom is up.  If you choose to resume communication with her, encourage her to follow-up on that.

She claims to be in therapy but I don't know who her therapist is, nor am I confident her therapist is qualified and experienced enough to handle a case as complex as hers.

If you are on talking terms with your sister, this will dovetail nicely with your previous statement, by all means ask her who her therapist is.  The worst that will happen is that she won't.  Unless this is a trigger for her, you have nothing additional to lose by asking her.

[Riv3rW0lf]

But then things got more intense.  She became more openly hostile, began a defamation campaign against me within my family, and began committing statutory domestic abuse against me via statutory harassment.  I had to adopt an NC approach in self defense, and serve her with a cease and desist letter.  For the sake of my own mental health, I could no longer afford to be affected by her attacks, let alone invest in responding.  Writing her off allowed me to regain time, space, energy, peace, calm, clarity, control, and happiness.

I don't know how common this is, but in my family, on my BPD mother's side, there is this idea that FOO is all that matters, and it should take priority on the rest. There is a tender side to the abuse, in which "we fight a lot but it's just because we love each other so much", and we somehow have this false sense of responsibility for others members of the family.

It's like... To cover up the abuse, we somehow had to appear close with our mother, but also within sibblings. We are not allowed to step out of our family system... We are not allowed to become fully independant, in a way... We are not allowed to not want drama or a part in it...

In healthy families, it happens that sibblings will only see each other once or twice a year, on Holliday events. Healthy families are aware that their children have their own family now, other responsibilities, that they aren't responsible for their sibbling, nor even their parents, other than if they willingly choose to be there, in a healthily manner.

Your sister is an adult now. And if I have to be completely honest while I still talk with my brothers, I am not close with them, and if they did the kind of things she did to you, I would cut contact too...

I have been away from home for longer now than I have been with my FOO. I barely know them anymore. I know their past, who they were, not who they are. Just like they don't know me. I have this false sense of responsibility toward them, that comes from the parentified child I was who must take care of them, and be present to rescue them when they need me. But I am not this rescuer anymore. I don't want the drama, I want peace.

My father cut ties with his own brother, and my mother painted him as a devil because he did. My brother didn't talk to him for a long time, he would blame him for how he cut ties with his own brother 'who does that!'... My mother's words. But I know the story... How he tried everything to help his brother, an addict with BPD who would lash out at him, blame him, get himself thrown in prison and blame my father, guilttrip him to get him out, pay his bail. He started smear campaign, stole him... I mean, what was my father to do?

Being in contact, for me, entails that they will respect my natural boundaries, and show me respect. I am at a point now where I simply don't want the drama. If they are willing to respect those boundaries, great. If not, I honestly feel no obligation whatsoever to remain in contact with them anymore. It's not like they really know me, and I, them.

Your sister has done some terrible things to you. And if she changes, you seem mature and flexible enough that you might reconsider. But I agree that this is not your responsibility, as her sibbling, to "save her from herself". This impulse, within siblings, sounds more like a trauma bond to me.

[Oh Brother]

I don't know how common this is, but in my family, on my BPD mother's side, there is this idea that FOO is all that matters, and it should take priority on the rest. There is a tender side to the abuse, in which "we fight a lot but it's just because we love each other so much", and we somehow have this false sense of responsibility for others members of the family.

It's like... To cover up the abuse, we somehow had to appear close with our mother, but also within sibblings. We are not allowed to step out of our family system... We are not allowed to become fully independant, in a way... We are not allowed to not want drama or a part in it...

I know that ethos exists within some families, and is even sometimes a theme in movies and TV series etc.  It seems toxic to me.  I wish it wasn't lionized or even normalized in those media.  I'm sorry you've had to deal with that.

In healthy families, it happens that sibblings will only see each other once or twice a year, on Holliday events. Healthy families are aware that their children have their own family now, other responsibilities, that they aren't responsible for their sibbling, nor even their parents, other than if they willingly choose to be there, in a healthily manner.

Do healthy families exist?

Your sister is an adult now. And if I have to be completely honest while I still talk with my brothers, I am not close with them, and if they did the kind of things she did to you, I would cut contact too...

I have been away from home for longer now than I have been with my FOO. I barely know them anymore. I know their past, who they were, not who they are. Just like they don't know me. I have this false sense of responsibility toward them, that comes from the parentified child I was who must take care of them, and be present to rescue them when they need me. But I am not this rescuer anymore. I don't want the drama, I want peace.

Letting go of that sense of responsibility became easy for me once my sister had alienated me enough.  At some point in this saga of the last 4.5 years I told her "I don't owe you a goddamn thing."  That was kind of a watershed moment in the relationship.  I basically notified her that any past loyalties I may have had to her were over with.

My father cut ties with his own brother, and my mother painted him as a devil because he did. My brother didn't talk to him for a long time, he would blame him for how he cut ties with his own brother 'who does that!'... My mother's words. But I know the story... How he tried everything to help his brother, an addict with BPD who would lash out at him, blame him, get himself thrown in prison and blame my father, guilttrip him to get him out, pay his bail. He started smear campaign, stole him... I mean, what was my father to do?

Who does that?  People who realize they're in an abusive relationship and come to the realization that they don't wan't to keep taking the abuse anymore.  Your father had a binary choice: keep suffering, or break out.

Being in contact, for me, entails that they will respect my natural boundaries, and show me respect. I am at a point now where I simply don't want the drama. If they are willing to respect those boundaries, great. If not, I honestly feel no obligation whatsoever to remain in contact with them anymore. It's not like they really know me, and I, them.

Respect for boundaries is a good condition for contact.  My boundary with my sister, and I know this sounds haughty, is that she get help before any future contact.

Your sister has done some terrible things to you. And if she changes, you seem mature and flexible enough that you might reconsider. But I agree that this is not your responsibility, as her sibbling, to "save her from herself". This impulse, within siblings, sounds more like a trauma bond to me.

I'm under no illusion about saving her from herself.  When I set my boundary with her, i.e. delivered my ultimatum that she get help or leave me and my family alone forever, I followed with "if you're willing to work on yourself then I'm willing to work on our relationship."  Only time will tell; we shall see.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Do healthy families exist?

I honestly think they do. Or at least, that the level of dysfunction is much lower, allowing children to develop healthily and not hold anger and rage toward their FOO.

[SaltyDawg]

Do healthy families exist?

I honestly think they do. Or at least, that the level of dysfunction is much lower, allowing children to develop healthily and not hold anger and rage toward their FOO.

In the context where there is BPD present in the family, I would say no, unless the BPD is self-aware, even with a high functioning invisible borderline.  I'm in one right now.  My D has had dAN [full hospitilization, but recovered], uOCPD & parentification.  My S is showing some traits of NPD/BPD but is too young and sees a T for his oppositional behavior [anger management].  My uBPDw has finally come to a partial 'self-awareness' and is actively addressing her worst symptoms at the moment, 2-months in, and there has been progress with setbacks.  BPD is a mental cancer and needs to be contained, otherwise, it will become unhealthy.  Now that I know what I am dealing with, things are getting better all around, I had to trick my wife into becoming 'self-aware' in order for things to get better.