What if it was cPTSD all along?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I only recently started learning about cPTSD. I started wondering if my BPD ex had BPD after all.

She did exhibit a strong fear of abandonment but her identity wasn't really in flux. She did change her personal style a lot and she likes to play with identities but her core remains the same.

She needed constant reassurance and validation much like a person with BPD. I'm not sure if it's exclusively a BPD thing though.

Looking at her history it seems she had periods of cPTSD-seeming hermit periods and the BPD-like symptoms would be more present in a relationship.

Would a person with cPTSD paint and split all their exes black however?

Do people with cPTSD choose Favourite People? My ex started acting more cPTSD towards me after she found new supply in my friend. He would receive the optimism and energy of a BPD idealization and what I got was the sullen depressed and self-hating cPTSD.

[Tupla Sport]

I only recently started learning about cPTSD. I started wondering if my BPD ex had BPD after all.

She did exhibit a strong fear of abandonment but her identity wasn't really in flux. She did change her personal style a lot and she likes to play with identities but her core remains the same.

She needed constant reassurance and validation much like a person with BPD. I'm not sure if it's exclusively a BPD thing though.

Looking at her history it seems she had periods of cPTSD-seeming hermit periods and the BPD-like symptoms would be more present in a relationship.

Would a person with cPTSD paint and split all their exes black however?

Do people with cPTSD choose Favourite People? My ex started acting more cPTSD towards me after she found new supply in my friend. He would receive the optimism and energy of a BPD idealization and what I got was the sullen depressed and self-hating cPTSD.

[yellowbutterfly]

Such an interesting topic Tupla. I've often wondered about this with my stbx H uBPD. Thank you for posting...

From what I've read, cPTSD has been used in the past as a "softer" term for BPD with the patient, as often BPD carries a stigma. Interestingly, my stbx H's T often used cPTSD when talking to him directly when I joined a few sessions. Though in the last year or two,  more research in the therapeutic community discouraged using cPTSD as a diagnosis for BPD and focused more on the coexistence of both in patients. Note that in the US, cPTSD is not in the DSM-V.  For BPD, you only need 5 of the 9 identifying factors and to my understanding, those can change for over time, and each BPD is unique in their criteria.


BPD is a pervasive pattern of instability in interpersonal relationships, self-image, and emotion, as well as marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. Chronic feelings of emptiness
2. Emotional instability in reaction to day-to-day events (e.g., intense episodic sadness, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
3. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
4. Identity disturbance with markedly or persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
5. Impulsive behavior in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)
6. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
7. Pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by extremes between idealization and devaluation (also known as "splitting")
8. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-harming behavior
9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

In addition, I've read the two (cPTSD/BPD) are often confused when diagnosing patients and that cPTSD can be present in those with BPD (often a pwBPD has other comorbidities). "Borderline personality disorder and complex post-traumatic stress disorder are commonly found together, with between 25% and 60% of people living with BPD also having CPTSD."

Key differences in emotional regulation and troubled relationships that set CPTSD and BPD apart... there is a really helpful visual in this article https://psychcentral.com/ptsd/how-ptsd-cptsd-and-bpd-can-impact-relationships

I know that my stbx H uBPD very strongly exhibited all nine of the BPD criteria, often to extremes though he referred to his issues as cPTSD. I don't know if he ever knew or was diagnosed with BPD and just didn't want to tell me. I think that is the case. He was also horribly abusive to me and his past partners, as I found out. 

KEY DIFFS as I understand them:

- (BPD) fear of abandonment versus (cPTSD) avoiding friendships and relationships, or finding them very difficult. > the frantic efforts my H exhibited were like nothing I've ever experienced or could dream up.

 "A person with CPTSD may have issues with trust and staying connected with people, but they don’t have the fear of abandonment; that’s a telltale sign of BPD."  "[BPD] frantic efforts to avoid abandonment regardless of whether it is real or perceived (imagined)."

- (BPD) self-harming behavior. This may include suicidal ideation or a suicide attempt. > he would often threaten to kill himself if he wasn't getting his way or he felt abandoned by me aka his FP

- (BPD) Intense, unstable relationships alternating between idealization and devaluation – Wanting to be around that person 24/7. And then rapidly shift to feeling like that person isn’t “there” enough for them (again, a word of caution regarding teenagers). > he would flip to devaluation and attack me for not being there or not being fair as in he put x hours of effort into helping me so I had to do the exact  same. It was SO weird. Or he had work to do so I couldn't go to sleep if he couldn't.

- (BPD) Impulsivity – acting out and behaving in a way w/o thinking about it. (substance use, binge eating, gambling, unsafe sex, unsafe driving, or spending money recklessly) > this can be covert or obvious as I found out

[Tupla Sport]

I'm going to edit this reply as I'm short on time right now but wanted to reply this:

My ex does seem to have both the cPTSD aversion to relationships, romantic and platonic, and the fear of abandonment. For all the time I've known her she has lived this double life where she is absolutely horrified of people while broadcasting herself on social media and using it to lure new caregiver candidates. Even now after our breakup she is hermitting at home while relying on my replacement as her supply, an "in" to the world. As far as I know anyway.

There seems to be a dance of cPTSD-related fear of people and a BPD need to relate and find a caregiver in her. I only received full understanding of this dynamic after 3 months of NC when I had to confront the idea that she is not coming back because she has an easier time living with her pain with someone new who doesn't have the emotional inertia I had. I tried to help her heal, he is helping her survive a day at a time I guess.

I refuse to call it baggage because the term to me implies there are times in a person's life where they are positively floating on nothing but good feelings but that doesn't truly happen I find. There is always some inertia. Even positive feelings have inertia!

I guess the part I got hung up on was the identity instability. Some resources make it sound like pwBPD are schizophrenic and that their core values are open to change. My quiet type ex had none of that. She would switch up her style radically and jump into weird subsubcultures. In a way, she is holding on to a part or two of her personality doggedly, almost like holding on to something to keep her grounded. Which is good for her, I'm not saying that's a negative. But the core is there even if the aesthetics change.

[BPDEnjoyer]

I'm going to edit this reply as I'm short on time right now but wanted to reply this:

My ex does seem to have both the cPTSD aversion to relationships, romantic and platonic, and the fear of abandonment. For all the time I've known her she has lived this double life where she is absolutely horrified of people while broadcasting herself on social media and using it to lure new caregiver candidates. Even now after our breakup she is hermitting at home while relying on my replacement as her supply, an "in" to the world. As far as I know anyway.

There seems to be a dance of cPTSD-related fear of people and a BPD need to relate and find a caregiver in her. I only received full understanding of this dynamic after 3 months of NC when I had to confront the idea that she is not coming back because she has an easier time living with her pain with someone new who doesn't have the emotional inertia I had. I tried to help her heal, he is helping her survive a day at a time I guess.

I refuse to call it baggage because the term to me implies there are times in a person's life where they are positively floating on nothing but good feelings but that doesn't truly happen I find. There is always some inertia. Even positive feelings have inertia!

I guess the part I got hung up on was the identity instability. Some resources make it sound like pwBPD are schizophrenic and that their core values are open to change. My quiet type ex had none of that. She would switch up her style radically and jump into weird subsubcultures. In a way, she is holding on to a part or two of her personality doggedly, almost like holding on to something to keep her grounded. Which is good for her, I'm not saying that's a negative. But the core is there even if the aesthetics change.

Disagree with you that your ex has cPTSD.

[Tupla Sport]

Disagree with you that your ex has cPTSD.

I do think she has both.

[I Am Redeemed]

I do think she has both.

It’s possible.

To answer your question above, I have C-PTSD and I do not choose “favorite people”.

Some behaviors of bpd and c-ptsd look very similar. I think one of the main differences is the propensity for self-awareness and accountability and the core belief that one is “bad” or “unloveable” and the use of unconscious defense mechanisms to defend against shame.

Patrick Teahan on YouTube is a great resource for learning about c-PTSD and the behaviors in relationships.

[BPDEnjoyer]

I do think she has both.

cPTSD don't go and date your best friend. 

[SinisterComplex]

I do think she has both.

Is it possible...yes. However, for your own sake and sanity...I ask you does it really matter?

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[kells76]

I only recently started learning about cPTSD. I started wondering if my BPD ex had BPD after all.

Good question, and both yellowbutterfly and I Am Redeemed have insightful feedback about similarities/differences/how each one might show up.

I'm with SinisterComplex here:

Is it possible...yes. However, for your own sake and sanity...I ask you does it really matter?

though I'd say my take on the question is more:

what would it mean for you -- looking back on your relationship, looking at now, and looking forward -- if she were one or the other (or both)?

I'm curious, if you "knew for sure" that she had cPTSD instead of BPD, how would you be feeling?

[Pook075]

Interesting topic.  I've been separated for 5 months and my daughter is diagnosed bipolar & BPD.  My wife painted me black out of nowhere, left without arguing, and never looked back.  Maybe 2 months later, she meets with me and we talk for like 4 hours, and she explains that she believes she has PTSD because of a rape before we met.  She said that even though I've never been out of line in our 24 year marriage, she now associates sex with me to that rape and that's why its over.

Our doctor, however, discussed what happened in our break up and said that this was textbook BPD.  Won't go into that, but all the boxes are checked, and the patterns have been there the entire time...just not towards me.  This really has me thinking though, because my wife simply can't deal with any type of adversity; she has always shut down completely and/or literally ran from the problem.  There would be the classic BPD explosions of anger now and then as well, but most of the time it was shutting down and suffering in silence.

Although I'm feeling like it's finally time to move on, it's still a morbid curiosity why my marriage just imploded. 

[Couscous]

I’m not sure how much it really matters, but if you really need an answer, then maybe this video that showed up in my YouTube feed the other day will give you one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UKGjpL4vEBw

[jaded7]

I only recently started learning about cPTSD. I started wondering if my BPD ex had BPD after all.

She did exhibit a strong fear of abandonment but her identity wasn't really in flux. She did change her personal style a lot and she likes to play with identities but her core remains the same.

She needed constant reassurance and validation much like a person with BPD. I'm not sure if it's exclusively a BPD thing though.

Looking at her history it seems she had periods of cPTSD-seeming hermit periods and the BPD-like symptoms would be more present in a relationship.

Would a person with cPTSD paint and split all their exes black however?

Do people with cPTSD choose Favourite People? My ex started acting more cPTSD towards me after she found new supply in my friend. He would receive the optimism and energy of a BPD idealization and what I got was the sullen depressed and self-hating cPTSD.

I myself have wondered the exact thing about my ex. I have spent a great many hours pondering the questions of whether she's cPTSD or BPD.

As I have written about here in posts, she TOLD me she has been diagnosed with cPTSD as a result of her 'abusive' ex. She told me she went to get EMDR and it resolved the matter, yet during our relationship she related to someone who was interviewing her (about the cause of her cPTSD) that it CONTINUES to cause problems for her in her interpersonal relationships and she has a very hard time being vulnerable. Note, she didn't tell me this, we never really discussed the effects of her cPTSD, she simply forwarded a text she sent the interviewer with the above in it...no discussion.

I don't know what she has. I do know that therapists will often give someone the cPTSD diagnosis instead of the BPD since it's much less stigmatizing.

I do know that she exhibited many of the traits of BPD- explosive anger, accusations from out of the blue, mind-reading expectations, verbal abuse (name calling, belittling, yelling, mocking, mimicking, invalidation, deflection), projection and telling me what I was thinking, accusing me of doing the VERY things she was actually doing, lying about what was said/happened, gaslighting, ghosting...etc., etc.

I know, now 3 years into this suffering, that it has been really important to me to nail down that she is borderline. The thinking has been that if I can really confirm that, then I will be free of the self-hatred and self-blame for losing someone I really loved- because as we all know, they blame us, tell us it's OUR fault, "I wouldn't have had to ________ (yell, belittle, mock...) if you hadn't done x". It's been a desperate struggle to get myself to really believe that she is BPD, that all that stuff was really abusive.

Of course, my therapist has confirmed she is an abuser, my friends are aghast at what she did and what she called me, and all the reading and videos have confirmed it...but it doesn't seem to sink in.

It's like I'm more prepared to think I'm a bad person than she is. I'm more willing to think I screwed it up than that she did.

[Couscous]

It's like I'm more prepared to think I'm a bad person than she is. I'm more willing to think I screwed it up than that she did.

Yes, and this is why you ended up with her. You were like north and south poles of a magnet. It could be worth investing some time into doing your own personal work to reduce the chances of getting into another abusive relationship.

[jaded7]

Yes, and this is why you ended up with her. You were like north and south poles of a magnet. It could be worth investing some time into doing your own personal work to reduce the chances of getting into another abusive relationship.

Yes, I have already understood this. This is how I let the red flags pass right by me, this is how I allowed myself to be yelled at and called names, put down, belittled, ghosted. I did, to my credit, state in clear, calm way that it was hurtful to be yelled at and I didn't like it, it was hurtful and dehumanizing to be ghosted...proud of myself for that. Of course, these occasions just caused her to get extremely angry and start putting me down and yelling.

[Couscous]

Yes, I have already understood this. This is how I let the red flags pass right by me, this is how I allowed myself to be yelled at and called names, put down, belittled, ghosted. I did, to my credit, state in clear, calm way that it was hurtful to be yelled at and I didn't like it, it was hurtful and dehumanizing to be ghosted...proud of myself for that. Of course, these occasions just caused her to get extremely angry and start putting me down and yelling.

At the end of the day, the diagnosis is really not important, and learning about the various behaviors doesn't really do much to protect one from future abuse. Not all abusers have PDs. In the book, Why Does He Do That, the author who runs anti-abuser programs said that only about 11% of his clients have PDs. I have come to realize it's my own fear of abandonment and belief that a bad relationship is better than no relationship that gets in the way of having healthy boundaries, as well as lack of valuing myself enough to be willing to stand up to or walk away from abusive behavior. I recently had to be willing to walk away from my relationship with my brother before he finally began to treat me with respect.

[Pook075]

It's like I'm more prepared to think I'm a bad person than she is. I'm more willing to think I screwed it up than that she did.

I felt the exact same way the past 5+ years of our marriage.  Five month of being separated, I now clearly see that I wasn't the bad person.  I was doing 95% of the work in communicating and it still failed.  Don't beat yourself up over that...it was not you!

[SinisterComplex]

Yes, I have already understood this. This is how I let the red flags pass right by me, this is how I allowed myself to be yelled at and called names, put down, belittled, ghosted. I did, to my credit, state in clear, calm way that it was hurtful to be yelled at and I didn't like it, it was hurtful and dehumanizing to be ghosted...proud of myself for that. Of course, these occasions just caused her to get extremely angry and start putting me down and yelling.

Jaded...easier said than done, but you have to start putting into practice calling people on their S ! You have to develop strong and healthy boundaries. Now when I say that I will warn you...it is kind of a rocky road at first because it will feel alien to you. However, as you get more comfortable with it your relationships overall will change. Always keep the thought in mind that it is better to be respected than to be liked. If you worry too much about being liked you will fall right back into your old behavioral patterns and not make any progress...thus stuck in a vicious circle.

Want Better, Expect Better, Do Better!

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[jaded7]

Jaded...easier said than done, but you have to start putting into practice calling people on their S ! You have to develop strong and healthy boundaries. Now when I say that I will warn you...it is kind of a rocky road at first because it will feel alien to you. However, as you get more comfortable with it your relationships overall will change. Always keep the thought in mind that it is better to be respected than to be liked. If you worry too much about being liked you will fall right back into your old behavioral patterns and not make any progress...thus stuck in a vicious circle.

Want Better, Expect Better, Do Better!

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

Thank you SC.

I take a slightly different angle on all the talk about boundaries, respect, liking, etc. in our relationship with these people.

When she'd yell at me, call me names, put me down, ghost, etc here's what my thought process was...

• She's a really good person, she says she loves me, she wants to have a life with me.
  No person who really loves somebody wants to hurt, intentionally hurts them
  Therefore, she is doing it accidentally, or just gets so worried or stressed out that she can't help herself
  Me attacking her for these things won't help

Along with

• I know that I love her and would never intentionally hurt her (name call, yell, belittle, etc.)
  That's what love is about
  Therefore, since she says she loves me, she didn't mean these things

I never yelled at her in return, never called her names back, never even raised my voice to her when she was berating me for hours. I made my points calmly and honestly, and never attacked her. I thought she would respect THAT.

Or, to put it another way (I've discussed this extensively with my T)

I never escalated things, never verbally abused her, never yelled or called her names because that is the way I would want to be treated----respectfully. Therefore, that's the way I'll treat her. It NEVER occurred to me that maybe she wanted me to escalate along with her, to really yell, call names...and THAT is how she would respect me.

If that's what it would have taken for her to respect me, I don't want it.

[Couscous]

Me attacking her for these things won't help

This is definitely true.

The way I was able to gain the respect of my pwBPD was when I developed enough self-respect to stop turning the other cheek, and was willing to walk away from the relationship if the verbal abuse and ghosting happened again. And the abuse has stopped.

But it wasn’t a romantic relationship, and I think walking away from an abusive romantic relationship is the best policy.

[SinisterComplex]

Thank you SC.

I take a slightly different angle on all the talk about boundaries, respect, liking, etc. in our relationship with these people.

When she'd yell at me, call me names, put me down, ghost, etc here's what my thought process was...

• She's a really good person, she says she loves me, she wants to have a life with me.
  No person who really loves somebody wants to hurt, intentionally hurts them
  Therefore, she is doing it accidentally, or just gets so worried or stressed out that she can't help herself
  Me attacking her for these things won't help

Along with

• I know that I love her and would never intentionally hurt her (name call, yell, belittle, etc.)
  That's what love is about
  Therefore, since she says she loves me, she didn't mean these things

I never yelled at her in return, never called her names back, never even raised my voice to her when she was berating me for hours. I made my points calmly and honestly, and never attacked her. I thought she would respect THAT.

Or, to put it another way (I've discussed this extensively with my T)

I never escalated things, never verbally abused her, never yelled or called her names because that is the way I would want to be treated----respectfully. Therefore, that's the way I'll treat her. It NEVER occurred to me that maybe she wanted me to escalate along with her, to really yell, call names...and THAT is how she would respect me.

If that's what it would have taken for her to respect me, I don't want it.

My intent and point is for you to get more comfortable with being assertive and not putting up with piss poor behavior. That's all. Yelling won't accomplish much. The idea is actually to be firm and indifferent (that is being respectful). And then when you are used to being firm and indifferent then make it a point to be consistent with it. If you let your emotions get into it usually the other party's behavior that is causing the situation is the one who "wins" because that is what their aim is...to make you feel uncomfortable and for you to lose your composure and to react in an emotionally charged manner.

From the sounds of it you are at least on the right track. The most important thing may to be focus on your tone more so than what you say though. The it's not about what you say but all about how you say it ideal applies here.

Keep your head up, be kind to you, and take care of yourself.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-