BPD Mother - how to limit negative impact to kids

[Outdorenthusiast]

  So my wife is uBPD, and I have S/16, D/14, D/12.  D/14 looks like is unlucky and biologically picked up traits from her mom.  However the other two appears haven’t.  However - I feel they are starting to have environmental damage.  D/12 and S/16 prefer to spend much more time in their rooms and seems are becoming hyper vigilant, and anxious, and d/12 is starting to isolate from friends.  D14 I now have in counseling with the goal of reducing stress on my D/12 who seems to be the unlucky target of her anxiety/OCD/controlling aggression.  Wife I have in counseling with the goal of trying to reduce the emotional outbursts - however the FOG is deployed thick on both me and the kids.  The kids are good kids, but I worry about the long term consequences.

So as a father - what can I do to help my kids stay emotionally and mentally healthy in this crazy environment - sans divorce?  I am asking to this forum as likely as survivors of BPD parents - you would have great advice.

[Notwendy]

The FOG is deployed thick on both me and the kids.  The kids are good kids, but I worry about the long term consequences.

So as a father - what can I do to help my kids stay emotionally and mentally healthy in this crazy environment - sans divorce?  I am asking to this forum as likely as survivors of BPD parents - you would have great advice.

Thank you, I think we are strong personalities who have learned a lot and also done a lot of personal work though therapy and 12 step groups to further understand ourselves and our family of origin.

I think the question "how to mitigate without divorce" is a bit of "how to have the cake and eat it too" question but in addition, even if you did divorce, it would not change your children's relationship to their mother. It is possible to divorce, and then, remarry another spouse. This is the mother we have and we, ourselves, are trying to navigate a relationship with ours.

I think the decision to divorce or not is primarily yours. In fact, the number one piece of advice I would give is to work on your part of the dynamics, whether or not you stay together. My father was co-dependent and enabling, and enabling behaviors were encouraged. So his behavior also influenced us. As a child and teen, I perceived him as the good guy and a victim of my BPD mother's behavior. Now, I see that his part in the dynamics was choice. He allowed her to control his decisions, and her moods and wishes prevailed.

The one best thing he did was get us away from her, because we were scared of her moods. We would spend school holidays with his family. It was wonderful. We didn't have to walk on eggshells, it was peaceful, we weren't subjected to her moods and rages. His relatives loved us, we had cousins to play with. It was a little patch of normal. He also, on weekends, took us out, just us kids and him, and we have some great memories of outings to the park, the zoo, the museum. It may not seem fair to you to do the bulk of the parenting, but in my situation, my mother didn't seem emotionally capable of that. My father did more of it but as a result, I was attached to him as a parent.

The next best thing is to encourage our independence. I wanted to go to college, it was my ticket to independence- to not be financially dependent on my parents meant not being controlled by my mother. Whether your kids want to go to college, or learn a trade, their being employed allows them to make choices.

They may not make the same choice you do. You love your wife in a different way. They may love their mother and wish she could love them, but if the relationship is toxic, they may not want to spend a lot of time around the two of you. Don't think this is an easy decision. I loved my father ( he is now deceased) and chose to tolerate my mother in order to have a relationship with him, but I also knew to protect my own children from her.

We don't hate our parents or resent them but we may need to have an emotional distance from them. We do love our parents and that is what makes these decisions tough. I don't wish my parents divorced but if my father chose that, I'd have understood. Like you, he tried to do the best he could with a difficult situation. It's what we are trying to do too.

My number one advice is to work on you, your own boundaries and how to be less enabling or co-dependent. You are in a better position to be an effective father to them if you are doing that, and you are role modeling a different dynamic for them.

Having the kids in counseling is a good thing and role modeling that it is OK to seek out counseling so they know they can continue to do so as adults if they feel they need to.

[Riv3rW0lf]

So...  This ressource is aimed at adopted children but I would argue this applies to children who have a BPD parent and suffered great emotional trauma during their youngest years :

https://nacac.org/resource/the-teen-years-brain-development-and-trauma-recovery/

The thing is, the brunt of their emotional trauma has already been suffered, and what you are seeing in their teenagehood is a reflection of it, coupled with hormonal changes and normal brain changes that happen in adolescence. Plus, they likely still don't feel completely safe at home.

It doesn't mean you cannot help them through, but it does mean that they are already likely dealing with the backlash of having had to deal with an unstable, unpredictable and unsafe parent they couldn't attach to, leading to trust issues, overused freeze response and avoidance, isolation, emotional outbursts, C-PTSD, etc.

In my teenage years, I was able to "escape" my mother's claws by going to live with my father full time. I am still sure this saved my sanity, and is the reason why I am not bordeline myself today...but I asked myself often : what is it exactly that he did that worked for me?

And this article kinda outlined it in the best response a parent can have with a traumatized teenager...while you think you should be protecting them and guiding them via different methods... I think the best you can actually do is to cut them some slack.

Therapy is a good, of course. My father put me in self-development seminars, bought me a lot of art supplies, put me back in piano classes, canceled TV and video games, and overall provided me with a very safe environment. He never raised his voice at me.

Once, he left the house so that I could have a party... It ended up completely out of control. People smoked inside, broke his table... It was an absolute mess.  When I got up the next day and had to confront him, I was scared, so so scared. He looked at me, he was cooking a spaghetti sauce to take off the odor from the house and he said : "I can see you already had your lesson... You ok?" I was an emotional mess, I felt guilty, ashamed, scared, I was dealing with a lot, I hadn't enjoyed my night at all. So he brought me to the movies to help change my mind, and we never talked about it again... He didn't need to discipline me, he didn't need to scream, to shame, to guilttrip... He could read my body langage and always stayed safe in his connection with me. He gave me a safe space to make mistakes.

I sometimes felt he was abandoning me, but I see now this was often the result of my trauma projected on him. He did parentify me a bit, confided in me more than he should have, was looking for emotional support I couldn't give and had issues providing emotional support himself...

But in the end, I don't think emotional support is what I needed most (not from him, but therapy would have been great). What I needed from him was space and safety, like all the other teenagers. Despite my taking drugs, despite my being lost, vulnerable, isolated... He kept being him, kept trusting me, kept encouraging me through music, arts, kept our relationship intact, and stayed safe...

I think his calm, the fact he took care of himself at that time, the fact he was safe and didn't protect nor punished me, played for a lot onto me growing into a somewhat healthy young adult? I still had a long road to walk before I dove into the source of my trauma, and I resented him much more than my mother for a very long time. But today : I truly am doing well, and I know the safety and space he provided were a huge factor in this.

But then all teenagers are different...

Still, part of me believe you cannot do better than
1) take care of yourself to not be an enabler and to model self growth
2) refrain from punishing them for acceptable, normal mistakes and be the safe parent for them.

Like Notwendy said, taking them places where mom isn't is a very good idea too.

Sorry if this is not what you want to hear...  But this is just how it is. Having a BPD parent is traumatizing for children and teenagers... They are dealing with  lot, they need space to find and build their own safety, and it's likely your BPD wife cannot provide this space for them, because of the nature of BPD itself, so I think your main role is to help them reach independance from your wife and yourself by providing them with tools (hence the importance of modelling it).

[Couscous]

A few ideas to explore:

Non-Violent Communication
https://www.nonviolentcommunication.com/resources/for-kids/

Family Systems Trauma Model
https://familytherapybasics.com/blog/treating-traumatized-families

Gracie Bullyproof Program
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ybQ__WdAqvE

[Notwendy]

 Riv3rW0lf made an important point- the importance of unconditional love. That doesn't mean you don't have expectations of your kids' behavior and don't discipline them- they need limits and boundaries- but that you do it with love and with measure- the amount and kind of discipline a child needs.

Kids will make mistakes and need consequences but love should not be contingent on them behaving perfectly. Kids make mistakes, they push their limits.

Growing up, sometimes the smallest transgression became the crime of the century to my parents. However approval from my parents was contingent on obedience- obedience to my mother without question. Punishment might be the silent treatment from my mother or anger or disapproval from my father. I learned co-dependent behaviors and was a people pleaser. I believed I had to please others in order to be loved.

There were many highlights to staying with my father's relatives but one of them was that we could "misbehave" without the fear. We were generally good kids- we didn't do really bad stuff but we could be mischievous or silly- and face consequences but consequences with love. Not rages, not fear, not silent treatment, not rejection. We didn't have to be obedient servants. We didn't have to walk on eggshells. We could be kids.

I won't sugar coat what we were exposed to with BPD mother. It was verbal and emotional abuse. If my parents had divorced, I'd have asked to live with my father. Being able to spend time away from home, with my father's family made a big difference to us I think.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Kids will make mistakes and need consequences but love should not be contingent on them behaving perfectly. Kids make mistakes, they push their limits.

Sometimes, the natural consequences are significant enough that they need support, instead of more consequences. That was certainly the case in my example. I am still dealing with the shame of that night, 17 years later. It triggered me badly and I ended up isolating myself even more in school. My father saw it right away, and offered exactly what I needed.

He cared enough that he could see and listen to me.

It's a matter of being able to read the teenager... And this can only be done by a safe parent who can see the teenager for who they are, something pwBPD cannot do.

[Teabunny]

Yes, echoing what others have said and adding my experience...if you are determined not to divorce, the previous posts are excellent advice.

Really see your teens as individuals not extensions of wife or stereotypes of "teenager". Allow mistakes and consequences with love not exaggerated emotional reaction that would please your wife (triangulation against kids). Get them away from mom and on outings and around healthy safe people of all ages so they can develop somewhat normally. Explain to them what is not OK behavior from mentally ill mom (her abuse and boundary violations). Teach them their rights to their own bodies, independent thought, property, feelings, hobbies and so on. Help them become independent from you and mom. Don't enable mom. Provide example of loving respectful relationship through media like CinemaTherapy on YouTube or resources like that, model good relationships. And it may be hard but take ownership of reasons for staying married to your kids' abuser and don't blame them for being the reason you were "forced" to stay - explain why you can't rescue your kids so they hopefully understand. Therapy is probably vital as are good support systems for them as young adults. And if you're staying with their mom but they need to get away from her, accept you may lose close contact with them someday and don't try to hold them to home if it's not best for them. But also try not to avoid contact with each kid independent of their mom, even if she tries to control your communication don't allow her to do it.

Best of Luck!

[SaltyDawg]

So my wife is uBPD, and I have S/16, D/14, D/12.  D/14 looks like is unlucky and biologically picked up traits from her mom.  However the other two appears haven’t.  However - I feel they are starting to have environmental damage.  D/12 and S/16 prefer to spend much more time in their rooms and seems are becoming hyper vigilant, and anxious, and d/12 is starting to isolate from friends.  D14 I now have in counseling with the goal of reducing stress on my D/12 who seems to be the unlucky target of her anxiety/OCD/controlling aggression.  Wife I have in counseling with the goal of trying to reduce the emotional outbursts - however the FOG is deployed thick on both me and the kids.  The kids are good kids, but I worry about the long term consequences.

So as a father - what can I do to help my kids stay emotionally and mentally healthy in this crazy environment - sans divorce?  I am asking to this forum as likely as survivors of BPD parents - you would have great advice.

Be there for your children, maintain a sense of stability, give them tools on the side on how to deal with mom's issues [without confronting mom directly otherwise she might explode].

I have already given my advice in another thread to another person very recently in a similar situation to you, give it a read, copy and paste your questions here, as I am currently and actively engaged in this very topic. 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=354728 to see my story on the very questions that you ask.

It is similar to yours, I have a D/16 and S/11 right now.  Both have issues, moderate to severe, there is definite environmental and genetic collateral emotional damage.  Now that I know what is going on, I am attempting to mitigate it, and reverse it, with a bit of success.

I am also very much interested in your strategies as well, as I am a sponge still learning on how to manage the borderline personality.

[Notwendy]

Sometimes, the natural consequences are significant enough that they need support, instead of more consequences.

 I am still dealing with the shame of that night, 17 years later. It triggered me badly and I ended up isolating myself even more in school. My father saw it right away, and offered exactly what I needed.

I think shame is a common issue-  shame can be quite intense and probably intergenerational. I have read resources discussing how a parent can pass on their own sense of shame to children. Shame is something pwBPD have difficulty with.

If you have ever felt a shame trigger, it's quite intense. It's something I recognized when working on my own feelings as an adult. It is possible for family dynamics to be repeated in the next generation. I could see them in my own marriage, yet the marriage is between two very different people, and nobody on the level of disorder that my mother is. The pattern of my H getting angry and me becoming co-dependent out of fear of that anger, and the shame.

Riv3rW0lf makes an important point. When it comes to reprimanding a teen ager, we probably don't need it. (you have to know your teen). Our own sense of fear and shame from messing up is already enhanced and in my case, having to walk on eggshells out of fear of upsetting my BPD mother - every mess up was something to be scared of.

And she doesn't forget it. It becomes part of the stories she tells about me. She still discusses the time I didn't share a cookie with my sibling at age 6 to make the point of how selfish a child I was. At age 6?

I do think one needs to read the teen and have appropriate limits but like Riv3rW0lf mentioned, I don't need that much- we've had our shortcomings pointed out already. One thing I have had to work out is that if someone is angry, it's scary to me- and I'm not talking about over the top anger- normal anger, even annoyance, can result in me becoming fearful and people pleasing. We were not allowed to show any disagreement or frustration to BPD mother but she was allowed to rage and criticize us.

There are several motivations to do the personal work to change the dynamics we grew up with- one is for ourselves and our own relationships and also to role model something different for our children. If you find yourself in a dysfunctional relationship with a BPD spouse, chances are, you learned some of these patterns in your own family, even if you don't have a parent with BPD. These patterns can be similar in families where someone is addicted to alcohol, or drugs, or other addiction or where individuals have co-dependent behaviors. Changing your behaviors can set a different example for your children.

[Outdorenthusiast]

RW, NW, TB, CC, SD, - Really good info here - thank you so, so, so much for sharing your thoughts and feelings - you are truly helping three great kids and many more.  Here is a summary of what I read:

1) Fix your own codependent/caretaking issues – model healthy behavior.
2) Get kids away from the environment with mom for breaks where they can be relaxed and emotionally healthy (holidays, outings, etc.) where mistakes can be made, hair can be let down, and they don’t have to walk on eggshells.
3) Encourage independence and self esteem building activities.  I.e : Encourage socialization/friends and hobbies, cut back on anxiety building TV and video games/social media.
4) Enroll them in counseling.  Do your own counseling to model it is OK and not shameful – but healthy, so if they need to do it as adults they will.
5) Cut them some slack. Recognize their oversensitivity to failure – be gentle.  No shaming/guilt tripping/yelling. Be a safe place to make mistakes – be the safe parent with unconditional love.  It is ok to maintain appropriate parenting boundaries- kids need them, but be hypersensitive and gentle recognizing the environment they are in.
6) Give them the necessary emotional support – don’t close off and emotionally detach because you are overwhelmed with your own issues with your wife.  Ask about their feelings and get the kids talking.
7) Don’t give in to your wife’s triangulation against the kids. I.e. “ you need to support me and say “X” to them” etc…
8) Call out to them and explain what is not acceptable behavior that is happening from their mom (I.e. abuse and boundary violations)
9) Teach them their rights to their own boundaries – bodies, thoughts, feelings, property, hobbies etc.
10) Validate that anger (although not over the top) is an acceptable emotion so that they don’t become fearful and people pleasing.

Tough pill to swallow - a separate safe place away from abuse is sometimes better for their emotional and mental health and development than staying under the same roof in an abusive environment “for the sake of the kids health, development, and stability.” - each family to make their own judgment call here.

Many, I do already - some I will start, some I will do more of after reading this.  

SD- For me as a Dad here are some of the things I am doing that are uncomfortable but I have found helpful.
1) Pulling my kids out of their isolation bedrooms when it is “safe” so they are forced to socially interact with me and their siblings.
2) Asking “what is wrong” when they are withdrawn, and letting them know that I love them and their feelings are ok, and explicitly asking “I really want to truly hear your feelings - good or bad, and that I am a safe place to talk.”
3) Making up “activities” where they can invite their friends over (I.e. we are having a “January Just because” party at the local bowling alley.) and in December we had a Christmas cookie decorating party.  I specify that they have to invite at least one friend each time so that they can have an emotional support network that isn’t always me.
4) For my S/16 - encourage him to keep his friendship circle larger than his girlfriend so he doesn’t become co-dependent, and become despondent if they breakup.
5) Daddy daughter dates so that we can laugh and bond away from the drama.
6) “Heart to heart” daddy “feelings” conversations with my daughters when I can tell things are rough. - Ice cream helps… with a promise of a Rom-com after. (Super outside my masculine swim lane - but I am being intentional here…)
7) Immediately (10-15 min) after a blowup or emotional manipulation - out of sight from my wife - pull the kid aside apologize for the situation and empathize with how they feel and explain what specifically their mom did that was not ok. When they say “it’s ok” tell them “no - it is not ok, and tell them that “their feelings are important, and their thoughts are valuable, or that the over-reaction of another person is not under their control.”
8) In age appropriate ways - explain grey rock defense.
9) When enforcing a parent boundary (I.e. clean up your room) - watch reactions and be gentle and willing to compromise if necessary- they could be mentally overwhelmed by something they are stewing on that has happened.  Don’t be super rigid - Talk it out if necessary.
10) Back off on any controlling perfectionism actions (ie grades, skills, etc.) and celebrate the effort - not the result.  Let them know your love won’t change.
11) Give meaningful deep support hugs generously.  Sometimes - no words are required.
12) Learn each kids love language and emphasize their top two liberally. (I had them take the online quiz… - totally worth it!)

My therapist also taught me a trick that is working for me and I will share it with them… Invisible Bubble.  When in a high conflict situation imagine an invisible bubble around yourself - fill it full of happy thoughts.  The inappropriate behavior can stay on the outside of the invisible bubble and can’t get in.   Grey rock inside of the happy bubble.


Happy for more thoughts and input…

[Notwendy]

Tough pill to swallow - a separate safe place away from abuse is sometimes better for their emotional and mental health and development than staying under the same roof in an abusive environment “for the sake of the kids health, development, and stability.” - each family to make their own judgment call here.


My therapist also taught me a trick that is working for me and I will share it with them… Invisible Bubble.  When in a high conflict situation imagine an invisible bubble around yourself - fill it full of happy thoughts.  The inappropriate behavior can stay on the outside of the invisible bubble and can’t get in.   Grey rock inside of the happy bubble.

I think you are doing a lot, considering the circumstances. While it's obviously not a good thing to have an abusive parent in the home, that is also balanced with custody in the case of divorce. You may be able to provide an emotionally safe environment on your own but if she has some custody time with them, they'd be alone with her for that.

I think that decision comes down to what is best for your own emotional well being and a personal decision.

As a child, my mother's behavior was not good for children but we grew up and then went out on our own. Later, I saw that my mother's behavior impacted my father primarily. It was his choice to stay with her but it was also upsetting to see how she treated him. His way of coping after a while was to just give in to her, in order to avoid conflict. This reinforced/enabled her behavior.

I saw in your other posts that you have moved to another bedroom to give yourself some time alone to think and also have boundaries. Honestly, I think this is an important step- to take care of your needs and have boundaries. Your kids see this example of standing up for yourself. One of the issues I learned in my own family was that- you have to comply, people please,  in order to be loved. I didn't know I could say no. I became a people pleaser, almost a fake person with others as I feared they wouldn't like me if I didn't go along with their wishes. I don't have BPD but see this behavior as kinda like the mirroring, except I did have a sense of self, I just didn't have the self esteem to be more authentic and didn't even know how to do that or if it was OK.

You can role model being authentic to your children- and allow them to be honest with you. I don't think it's a good idea to discuss your wife/triangulate with children, but on the other hand, at one point, we got old enough to notice and my mother's behavior was like the elephant in the room. It's good that you encourage your kids to bring friends over. We were afraid to, because they might then see my mother's behavior and feared they might think poorly of me. I did have a close circle of friends- I think they thought she was eccentric or strange but didn't know the whole of it. As teens, we didn't pay much attention to our friends' parents.

At some point, your kids will want to know what is going on. It may be best for a counselor to explain it to them to avoid triangulation. With the internet, they are likely to figure it out on their own.



 

[Outdorenthusiast]

At some point, your kids will want to know what is going on. It may be best for a counselor to explain it to them to avoid triangulation. With the internet, they are likely to figure it out on their own.

For me - I am careful to not bad mouth their mom or triangulate.  They can figure it out for themselves when they want.  However, I am adamant about pointing out inappropriate behavior and giving emotional support so they know it is not ok when it happens.  Sometimes now I will say outright to my wife in front of them when there is FOG being deployed “that wasn’t nice.”

Usually I explain to my kids that “people have bad days, or get stressed - just like they as kids do or I do.   Sometimes kids have similar reactions.  (Relate to them…)  It doesn’t make what has happened right, but we also need to have tolerance and also empathy that sometimes people have emotionally tough times they need to work through.  To share emotions is not bad, but we need to be careful ourselves about the intensity because of how it makes others feel.  We can’t fix her emotions - she just needs to take time to figure it out for herself. (Make sure to reinforce that they don’t have to do something to fix her.)”

Not sure if I am doing things right, but I sure am trying.  My biggest holdback in any thoughts of separation is that 50% of the time I wouldn’t be able to be there for them and they would be alone - that scares the hell out of me.

[Couscous]

My biggest holdback in any thoughts of separation is that 50% of the time I wouldn’t be able to be there for them and they would be alone - that scares the hell out of me.

First, it’s always best to keep in mind that our kids really are on their own path. The harsh reality is that you already have much less ability to do damage control than you may think. Second, your kids are old enough now that they will be able to “vote with their feet”, and refuse to follow the parenting plan, so your fear is largely unfounded. And third, even though you have the best intentions, by thinking this way you are discounting your kids’ ability to navigate their relationship with their mother for themselves. Eventually they will need to be able to do this entirely on their own, and the sooner they do the better.

Most people who get into relationships with a pwBPD have a bit of a “need to be needed” tendency, so if you think this may be the case for you, it could be something worth exploring and getting to the bottom of.

EDIT: Another thing that could be holding you back from separating is a variation of empty nest syndrome, or fear of loneliness when aren’t with you. If this is the case, then reframing at your time alone as solitude instead of aloneness might help, as well as doing things like shoring up your support network, having outside interests and an active social life, joining a mens’ group etc.

[Notwendy]

Most people who get into relationships with a pwBPD have a bit of a “need to be needed” tendency, so if you think this may be the case for you, it could be something worth exploring and getting to the bottom of.

I think this is a good point and something to think about. While my father didn't voluntarily discuss BPD mother with me, he at one point probably had to answer my questions. I knew something was going on with my mother, I just didn't know what and I would ask questions.

BPD mother would threaten divorce. When I was younger, it did scare me. By the time I was a teen, I didn't want to be around my parents' conflicts or BPD mother's behavior. If they had divorced, I'd have asked to stay with my father no matter what the custody agreement was.

Eventually - with all the threats, I'd ask Dad "why don't you get a divorce?" and here are the reasons he told me.

If he left, my mother would get custody ( true- in those times, the mother almost always got custody full time) but if I had the chance to speak up in court  -they'd hear a different story. And what I mostly suspect is that my father's desire to protect my mother from people finding out about her was a big factor. It was the main rule in our family to not talk about her to anyone. If it came to custody, I'd have said something.

So his reason was "for the kids". But we kids grew up and he stayed, so that could not have been the only reason.

He would not have said this to me but I think his main reason was that he knew how impaired she was with BPD and feared she could not manage on her own. He did love her but I think he also felt a responsibility towards her, one that is larger than he felt for us kids, because I think he also knew we could manage- at least as adults- and that became apparent by our teen age years where we were capable of household tasks, getting ourselves to school. But BPD mother can not function without assistance.

She had also made at least one suicide attempt and I think he was afraid of what she might do if he left.

And, he was still completely smitten with her and so co-dependent he'd do whatever she asked him to. It was astounding to see the kind of power she had with him. He'd easily say no to me, but not to her and I am grateful that he promoted my own independence by doing so.

I am grateful to not be in her situation. I know it has to be extremely difficult for her and due to that - difficult for those who care about her. And I think my father did a great service to her and to us too for his care for her but also would have not blamed him if he chose otherwise.

So here's where I think divorce is up to you. Your kids are at about the same age where I knew enough to be vocal about my situation if they did divorce and soon will be young adults. At this point, the other reasons besides "for the kids" will be more important.