Why there’s no need to feel guilty for becoming estranged from parents

[Couscous]

An interesting study has found that people who have never had children (and by extension, grandchildren) are happier than those who have had children.

What this means is that our parents can lead happy, fulfilling lives without us (or our kids), so there is truly no need for us to feel the slightest bit of guilt. And once they have got over the initial shock they will probably not even miss us.

https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-having-children-make-people-happier-in-the-long-run

[Notwendy]

I think there's a difference between not having children and then having children and being estranged from them.

While sometimes it's not possible for a couple to have children, I think the main difference between a couple with and without children is the desire to have them. People who want children have them, or take steps to have them by fertility treatments or adoption and if that isn't possible, they find a way in their lives to channel that wish that is fulfilling.

From what I have seen, the situation of being estranged from children is devastating for loving caring parents- and if they are emotionally healthy caring parents, it's due to some disorder in the adult child- such as BPD, NPD or other condition.

For adult children who choose NC with their parents- it's also not an easy choice- but it's done because the parents are emotionally harmful to the child. I agree that they should not feel guilty for making the choice to protect themselves from a parent who is emotionally destructive to them.

I think the feelings of those parents are different from the feelings of the emotionally intact parent. Emotionally healthy parents recognize that the child is a separate human with their own needs and are invested in the child's safety and emotional health. They are concerned for the adult child.

For a disordered/abusive parent- I think the "missing" is the missing of what the child can provide for them and the loss of the image. For instance, when I chose LC with my parents, they didn't reach out to try to connect -they were angry because of what I wasn't doing for them.

It's said that a parent with a PD sees the child as an extension of themselves and the purpose is to meet their needs. So I think there's an element to "missing" that child if the child is estranged - but it's more of a missing their needs being met.

As to feeling guilty, I don't think guilt was the main reason for choosing LC over NC. I think it was more about how I wanted to manage the situation for myself.  It seemed like a better fit for me but that is circumstantial and for others, NC is best.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I read the article. Personally not how I understand it.

He does mention another study which correlated a loss of happiness for mothers with poor relationship with their adult children. I second Notwendy's point that the loss felt would differ between an abusive parent and a healthy parent... I don't think the study went as far as to make a comparison between both sets though. Loss of happiness is loss of happiness.

I also wondered if the researcher had children himself, to be honest.

I think Jordan Peterson said it best : a parent can only be as happy as their unhappiest child.

It's not the children, or the having children that causes the loss of happiness, it's the sudden realization of the added responsibility abd meaning, the increased self-awareness of how our decisions impact the life of the human beings we hold dearest. The loss of time to self-care, of course, but mainly I'd argue it's the added stress of wanting to leave something, to do good by them. Suddenly, everything becomes important, it has meaning. The world's problems seem greater because you can "predict" the future and worry for your children's future.

With the younger children, we are tired, constantly pulled and hyper vigilant... And a study made a direct link with loss of happiness and poor life-work balance, seemingly showing that the unhappy parents are those who cannot be with their children...

Anyway !

Random thoughts that popped in my head while reading.

[Notwendy]

Maybe happiness is connected to feeling a purpose. For people who choose to have children, that is because they feel purpose in it. If someone is pursuing their purpose, they are able to endure both the frustrating times and enjoy the happy times as it's all in line with that purpose.

For people who don't feel raising children is a purpose for them, and they find purpose in another endeavor, they too will find happiness in that pursuit.

However, if someone does not feel a sense of purpose in whatever they do, they may feel unhappy regardless of what they choose to do.

[Couscous]

Maybe happiness is connected to feeling a purpose. For people who choose to have children, that is because they feel purpose in it. If someone is pursuing their purpose, they are able to endure both the frustrating times and enjoy the happy times as it's all in line with that purpose.

For people who don't feel raising children is a purpose for them, and they find purpose in another endeavor, they too will find happiness in that pursuit.

However, if someone does not feel a sense of purpose in whatever they do, they may feel unhappy regardless of what they choose to do.

Yet raising children only gives parents a temporary sense of purpose because it only lasts until the kids are grown, so having kids isn’t a great long-term strategy in that regard.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Yet raising children only gives parents a temporary sense of purpose because it only lasts until the kids are grown, so having kids isn’t a great long-term strategy in that regard.

I don't think purpose comes from only one thing. You can get meaning from having children, which gives you a sense of responsibility, of what is wrong in the world...then it gives you an incentive to put yourself in action, in the community, to fix it, to put good in the world, to lead by example.

For me anyway ... It made me realize the extent (and limitations) of my power, and gave me an incentive to "get out there". Once out there, the sense of meaning I had found "through them" became clearer and became truly mine. I found other meanings.

Yet the stress and responsibility of caring of young children... I love how Jordan Peterson makes a distinction between being "happy" and "at peace". I am not happy, sometimes I am, but most times, I am satisfied, and at peace (also completely scared, but driven) and this is enough now. So I guess it also depends how one defines happiness.

I also think it is very easy for parents to forget who they are once you have young children, to make them your whole purpose then when they leave you are stuck feeling sad and senseless. Especially mothers who never "differentiated" from their young children... For me, my children acted as a catalyst for growth. I am aware this is not the case for everyone, and many people might actually lose themselves even more in the process.

I guess I can see how parents could be less happy than adults without children... But I wonder how they relate to life and to their own responsibility in this society and in this world, their responsibility toward future generations. Not everyone needs to have children to grasp the concept of sustainability, of paying it forward, and not all parents even grasp it... But it certainly seems to help.

[Notwendy]

Yet raising children only gives parents a temporary sense of purpose because it only lasts until the kids are grown, so having kids isn’t a great long-term strategy in that regard.

I agree and also that we don't have to have one single sense of purpose.

My adult children do not need "parenting" in the way we consider it. But there's still a sense of purpose to the relationship between us.

One thing I observed with my BPD mother seems to be the lack of a sense of purpose. She has the opportunity to do things she wants to do, but she doesn't seem happy.

For the women I know who made raising children a priority- this wasn't their only sense of purpose. They have other pursuits as well- work, volunteering, pursuing a sport or the arts. It may not be emotionally healthy to have only one activity that provides a sense of purpose. Children grow up, jobs can change, people move to a new location.

[Couscous]

For the women I know who made raising children a priority- this wasn't their only sense of purpose. They have other pursuits as well- work, volunteering, pursuing a sport or the arts. It may not be emotionally healthy to have only one activity that provides a sense of purpose. Children grow up, jobs can change, people move to a new location.

Yes, I really think leading a balanced life is key because this allows you to form bonds with lots of people outside of your family and to not have all your eggs in one basket.

But when you grow up in an enmeshed family you are brainwashed and fear forming bonds with people outside the family, because people outside the family allegedly cannot be trusted. So you’re forced to put all of your eggs in one basket: your family’s basket. To not do so is akin to treason. When all your eggs are in one basket, your family can exploit this situation because they know that you have no other source of social support, and that’s when things get truly toxic.

Overcoming enmeshment sure ain’t easy though. I almost feel like I should send my children to boarding school to give them the opportunity to form bonds with their peers — which is actually something that my aunt did with my cousin. I think I now understand why…

[Riv3rW0lf]

But then, if your family of origin is not abusive, isn't it acting like a solid foundation upon which you can overcome adversity?

Not like it is actually easy out there? People, especially teenagers CAN absolutely be mean and dangerous too.

I feel like it is the fact that my foundation right now in my chosen family is solid that allows me to go out and accept when I feel left out, or rejected, and to not take it personally. Because then I come back home and I have this safe, loving place where I can be myself.

Building from a safe foundation up.

Why boarding school? Wouldn't they leave anyway toward 18-19 years old?

I love how, in the USA, young adults generally leave their state to go to college. It's like this rite of passage toward adulthood, a break from the family of origin. Isn't boarding school much younger than that? I've heard so many horror stories. And having been severely bullied myself in school, I don't like the idea if teenagers fending for themselves without guidance.

I ask why boarding school because this is something my husband mentioned multiple times too, and will pop up once in a while, how we should consider sending them to boarding school. And I am absolutely puzzled by this. I am not overprotective, but I do feel teenagers still need guidance from their parents. He doesn't seem able to explain it though, why he thinks it would be good, other than the knowledge, and better education aspect. You talk about enmeshment so I am curious.

[Notwendy]

On the topic of boarding schools- when I was about 14, during one of her rages where she was telling me how much trouble I was causing her,  my mother told me that she and my father wanted to send me away - like they didn’t want me at home with them - away. As « proof » she pulled out a pile of boarding school catalogues to show me their intentions. I was upset to see that but then I read them and wished they would send me to one. I think I would have been happier if they did send me.

They didn’t. It’s possible my Dad had requested them as he may have been considering the idea for our own benefit - away from BPD mother and hers - to not have us around and she decided to use them to prove her point.

Boarding school sounded amazing to me though.

[Couscous]

Why boarding school? Wouldn't they leave anyway toward 18-19 years old?

18 is too late. Kids are really supposed to stop orbiting around their parents and begin turning towards their peers beginning around age 12.

But I don’t think my aunt’s plan actually worked. My cousin has never even had a girlfriend, and he’s 40 years old now. My aunt sent him to Australia for university where he settled after he graduated, and somehow that didn’t help either.

This webinar (which I re-watch regularly) from one of Ken Adams’ associates explains how the process of separating from one’s family works for teens: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X63Dkcbl2oE

[Notwendy]

The cost of  a year of boarding school can equal a year of college and this is something that is unaffordable for many families who are trying to save for college. There can be issues with this as well if the additional costs to fit in- clothes, vacations, social events also put a strain on the family budget.

It's not the only way for teens to separate from parents. Sleep away summer camps, adventure camps, school trips, summer college experiences- they are not inexpensive but are shorter than a school year and some have scholarship opportunities to help with costs. Teens can be given more autonomy- more responsibility like doing household tasks and summer jobs. If they are at school all day, then have sports, jobs, friends- they spend a lot of time out of the house and not orbiting around their parents.

I think teens naturally want to separate and it's the parent's task to gradually accommodate this growth. If it's an adult child who isn't separating, either the parent is somehow disordered or the child has some kind of issue that makes this difficult. No 40 year old has the goal to be home with parents and no girlfriend- but I have seen this with some adult children who are on the spectrum. They may be intellectually capable of graduating college but have weak social skills and anxiety that makes socializing hard.

 

[Riv3rW0lf]

I love how this webinar started with this quote from Khalil Gibran. Always loved that quote and made it my parenting moto :

"They are only coming through, not coming from. They don't belong to me."

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think teens naturally want to separate and it's the parent's task to gradually accommodate this growth. If it's an adult child who isn't separating, either the parent is somehow disordered or the child has some kind of issue that makes this difficult. No 40 year old has the goal to be home with parents and no girlfriend- but I have seen this with some adult children who are on the spectrum. They may be intellectually capable of graduating college but have weak social skills and anxiety that makes socializing hard.
 

This.

I don't think I would need to send or push my children away... What I need to do is not get in their way.

[Couscous]

If it's an adult child who isn't separating, either the parent is somehow disordered or the child has some kind of issue that makes this difficult.

Enmeshment is passed on from one generation to the next even when the parents do not have a PD. My H’s family is enmeshed and his mother is only mildly narcissistic and has been willing to accept our boundaries. His brother and sister, as well as aunts and uncles are all very nice people, although his grandmother may have also been somewhat narcissistic.

Not all enmeshed families are abusive, but without some kind of intervention, like family therapy, the children raised in such families are pretty much guaranteed to repeat the enmeshment with their own kids, because it’s the blueprint they were given on how a family functions. Alternatively they could go to the opposite extreme and be too distant from their kids, which is actually what both my maternal and paternal aunts seemed to have done with their kids. I certainly hope that I will be able to strike the right balance with my own kids, although I am concerned that I may be leaning too far in the direction of distance…

[Notwendy]

I think you have a good point Couscous- and yet, there's so much to family patterns I think it's inevitable we are going to repeat something. I think for me, the effort is to do better to break the most concerning ones as it's obvious that the BPD issues in my family are the most obvious.

My H's family isn't abusive but there are some patterns- enmeshment and co-dependency exists with the younger generations either staying enmeshed or going far. On one hand, I am glad my H went to the too far range- enmeshment would be frustrating to deal with but I think he went too distant on an emotional level with his own feelings. Yet, I can also see the effort he made to do better than his father with this as his father has even more emotional distance.

Yet a positive trait in his family is loyalty and devotion. His father shows devotion to his family while being emotionally distant. Strange how we match up in ways. BPD mother doesn't hold back from expressing her feelings, as far as attached to her family, I don't think she is.

So, in ways, I think we both made the effort to do better but we are influenced by our FOO for both good aspects and dysfunctional ones. One thing I have tried to role model for my kids is that it is OK to seek counseling and help if you need it- they know I have worked on my own patterns from my FOO. I think our kids feel emotionally safe with us- and that brings up another idea. Secure kids can push away, knowing they won't lose their parents' approval if they do. While enmeshment may look like too much attachment it also might be that the adult children don't feel a secure one.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Enmeshment is passed on from one generation to the next even when the parents do not have a PD. My H’s family is enmeshed and his mother is only mildly narcissistic and has been willing to accept our boundaries. His brother and sister, as well as aunts and uncles are all very nice people, although his grandmother may have also been somewhat narcissistic.

Not all enmeshed families are abusive, but without some kind of intervention, like family therapy, the children raised in such families are pretty much guaranteed to repeat the enmeshment with their own kids, because it’s the blueprint they were given on how a family functions. Alternatively they could go to the opposite extreme and be too distant from their kids, which is actually what both my maternal and paternal aunts seemed to have done with their kids. I certainly hope that I will be able to strike the right balance with my own kids, although I am concerned that I may be leaning too far in the direction of distance…

I might be off in how I read this...

I read you being awfully hard on yourself... Cut yourself some slack... Your family won't be perfect, none of our families are, no family is perfect actually... If you feel too distant, then take steps to be less distant... Do what feels good and fair to you. At the end of it all: you will be the one answering to yourself.

You have dysfunctions, your H have dysfunctions, we all do...again, I love how Jordan Peterson puts it : maybe between the two of you, you will ressemble something seemingly normal that will push your children further to keep healing.

Imagine a perfect life without some kind of pain to work with anyway ... So boring  

I think, even with children's it's us we have to worry about the most... This set a model for them, which in the end might be all they need. A safe model in the background that they are free to use if they wish.

They will always be something to work on, and I think it's ok to look for growth, but it's also awfully easy to stay stuck in a state of "perfection" growth and reading on all the psychology and analysing each and every one of our defects... Last time I saw my father he told me one thing his heart attack taught him is that growth should NOT be a mental thing.

It's not something you can lay a path for, you don't decide what needs to be worked on. Most times we don't have the power for it, and counselors, even experts one, are still biased. They can help, but they are not living with you, they only hear what the family tells them... I think they can be helpful but they certainly remain humans with flaws and biases.

I don't know where I am going with this...I guess I am starting to feel I've been guided so far, and I trust my children will be guided in their own journey as well. But I think when there is an anxiety, a need for perfection, attached to my growth journey... Then I often find it's my ego being scared and wanting to be in control, while I need to let go. Watching videos, I've also convinced myself I had issues I didn't even had...

I will not be a perfect parent , and my balance will be a bit off. But I will be able to turn back on myself and genuinely tell them that I did my absolute best.  And I trust that, just like it was enough for me when my father told me so, that it will be enough for them.

[Notwendy]

I might be off in how I read this...

I read you being awfully hard on yourself... Cut yourself some slack... Your family won't be perfect, none of our families are, no family is perfect actually... If you feel too distant, then take steps to be less distant... Do what feels good and fair to you. At the end of it all: you will be the one answering to yourself.


I don't know where I am going with this...I guess I am starting to feel I've been guided so far, and I trust my children will be guided in their own journey as well. But I think when there is an anxiety, a need for perfection, attached to my growth journey... Then I often find it's my ego being scared and wanting to be in control, while I need to let go. Watching videos, I've also convinced myself I had issues I didn't even had...

I will not be a perfect parent , and my balance will be a bit off. But I will be able to turn back on myself and genuinely tell them that I did my absolute best.  And I trust that, just like it was enough for me when my father told me so, that it will be enough for them.

There are no perfect parents- or perfect kids. We all bring our own individual make up into a relationship of any kind. We can not control all aspects of their childhood or personal growth.

We should not be too hard on ourselves, we will likely mess up something along the way and learn from that. I guess my main goal is that the kids know they are loved unconditionally and they feel they are able to talk to me about anything if they choose to. And to respect their boundaries- some kids are more private than others. One sign for me is that they are secure to tell me how they feel if I go too far into mom mode and they want to be treated more like adults. I think it's both of us growing and adjusting to their becoming independent. They push too.

My kids don't have to walk on eggshells with me- that means a lot.

But yes, we both mess up and cross boundaries sometimes, but we can communicate and repair things- I can't do that with BPD mother.

I think we try to do the best with the tools we have and some of us didn't have positive role models. We learn as we go. And the kids know that it is OK to seek out counseling if they find themselves to be concerned about an issue.

[Couscous]

I think the results of this study hit me so hard because it exposed an ulterior motive that I was not aware I had for why I’ve been putting so much energy into being a “cycle breaker”, and that is so that I can have close relationship with my kids once they’re grown. While I have probably been doing a pretty good job of not using my children to meet my emotional needs right now, it seems like all I have really been doing is deferring gratification on that, and that I secretly have an expectation that once they’re grown, then I will reap the rewards for all the sacrifices I have been making. In other words, I am still very much operating according to the codependent/enmeshed family blueprint and have retained the belief that children are supposed to meet their parents’ emotional needs. Ugh!

I am definitely going to be looking very closely at how much I needlessly “sacrifice” for them and instead start finding ways to meet my own needs, for the first time in my life so that I don’t end up feeling like they are going to “owe me” someday. In recent weeks I have already started becoming aware of how, in my quest to do the opposite of my mother, that I do too much for them. This study just further reinforces the need for me to continue to work on this.

Showing them that I can do things to meet my own needs is probably the single most important thing I can model for them, even though the thought of doing so currently fills me with feelings of dread…
 

[Riv3rW0lf]

I am definitely going to be looking very closely at how much I needlessly “sacrifice” for them and instead start finding ways to meet my own needs, for the first time in my life so that I don’t end up feeling like they are going to “owe me” someday. In recent weeks I have already started becoming aware of how, in my quest to do the opposite of my mother, that I do too much for them. This study just further reinforces the need for me to continue to work on this.

Showing them that I can do things to meet my own needs is probably the single most important thing I can model for them, even though the thought of doing so currently fills me with feelings of dread…

I think it is a wonderful realization to have, and is a statement to your character and the amazing mother I am sure you are.

Meeting our own needs... I've been "going out there" more and more and exposing myself... Just today, I went to meet teenagers to give a presentation about my career, a new thing I decided to try, to give back to the community. It's part of a program within my professional order. I would NEVER have had the courage to do this a year back, and it did fill a need I had to belong, to open up to the world, to put good out there. I did it for me : for this part of me that once wanted to be a French teacher... And it felt great! I wasn't even stressed, which was a very big surprise to me. or I kinda was, but stayed surprisingly cool as a cucumber 

So... What I am trying to say is : I do think it gets easier over time, to take care of ourselves.  

And like my stepmother would say : it gets easier over time, yet still is the work of a lifetime, truly.