What do people talk about?

[thankful person]

My dbpdw is constantly wanting to talk to me, during my work breaks, and when I’m at home and texting at night (separate beds is her choice). But then she complains that we’re not really talking because we only talk about the children, my work, the daily routines of the household and grocery shopping (I actually think this makes us quite normal ). I’m not sure what my wife wants to talk about and she won’t tell me. I would love for us to become closer, to learn more about her and her past. But I don’t talk much about my past before we met and that’s because she responds with jealousy especially anything involving ex partners or even friends. Talks about the future always end up with her frustrated that we don’t have the money to do what she wants. And then she starts looking online and next thing I know she’s spent money we don’t have on credit cards. Any advice for a good conversation topic for a pwbpd, (especially when you talk to each other lots and lots)? Or is this question just coming from a failing relationship?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[thankful person]

Just to add: my wife doesn’t feel loved, wanted, desired or supported and these are some of the things she wants from our conversations but she won’t say what she wants to hear. Apparently she has never felt these things from me or not for a very long time, but things have only become very bad between us since our third baby arrived last October.

Also, my wife absolutely refuses any suggestion that we attend therapy together. She also “forbids” me to go alone because she doesn’t want to be talked about. The consequence of me taking such action would (apparently) be that she would want me to move out. We have been sleeping separately for a long time, not wearing our wedding rings at her request, and I’m not allowed to be physically affectionate at all or verbally say, “I love you”. That’s because she feels I’m getting what I want and she’s not getting the sex she wants from me because I need to somehow “talk the talk” before anything physical can happen but I have no idea how to “unlock this level”. The other day I patted her arm affectionately as we were laughing about something, as you might with a work colleague. She glared at me, “you touched me!”

[Notwendy]

I am not sure how to unlock such a situation. It may be all in her own thinking- surely you have acted in caring and loving ways around her. We can't make someone feel loved- if it's their own distorted thinking. You can go about your usual way, and show your affection- her response isn't something you can control.

The question for you, is at what point, do you decide that a relationship without affection  isn't acceptable to you.

Forbidding you to go to therapy is crossing a boundary. Mental health care is health care. This is your mind, and your body. She doesn't have the right to tell you to not take care of yourself- this is your decision.

The spending issue may or may not be related to how she grew up. It may be an aspect of BPD emotions. There is an emotional component to money and people tend to handle money in different ways- some spend too much, some are too frugal. Yes, we can be the roles in the Karpman triangle to each other and "rescue" ourselves with spending, or food, or alcohol, or other behavior. I think the behavior becomes an issue when it's destructive in some way. I think we've all said "I deserve a treat". "I want this sweater", or that glass of wine after a long day. The extreme threatens the budget, may harm relationships.

PwBPD have difficulty with their own emotions and look at sources outside themselves to self soothe. They may give reasons such as wanting something- love, spending money, attention- and when we provide what they are asking for, it may seem to make them feel better in the moment, but eventually not, because the object, the money, attention- this isn't the issue to begin with. The feeling is with them, and so these external actions don't truly solve this for them.

This may be going on with your wife. You are making an effort, she is spending money on things to make herself feel better. I understand the wanting to do something to make the relationship better. It may be that it's her own feelings and not something you are doing or not doing.

[babyducks]

I’m not sure what my wife wants to talk about and she won’t tell me.

Just to add: my wife doesn’t feel loved, wanted, desired or supported and these are some of the things she wants from our conversations but she won’t say what she wants to hear.

I've noticed that you have mentioned some form of this thought quite frequently over the time you've posted here.   

That your wife has some want/need, which is very important to her and somehow you are not fulfilling that want/need.   She also refuses to help you problem solve the dilemma.   

I find myself a little confused about what is really going on in this pattern.   and also confused about how you see/feel about this.   I'm always sensitive to the fact there is no tone of voice in text, so I hope you understand that when I ask a couple of questions its because I am genuinely curious/concerned.

How do you see what's going on here?   Do you feel responsible to unlock this next level?   Is it 100% up to you?   75%?    50%?   

Do you actually believe she does indeed know what she wants to talk about, what she wants to hear and is just flat refusing to tell you?    I think that would feel like some sort of gamesmanship to me, how do you view it?

Or is this more along the lines of what NotWendy mentioned, her distorted thinking and maladaptive coping techniques has her attempting to fix her uncomfortable internal feelings of shame and pain by changing the external?   if that's so, do you think you could do/say something that would soothe her internal distress?

I'm really not trying to quiz you.   I'd like to know how you think/feel about her setting these tasks for you to accomplish and then stubbornly refusing to participate in the solution.

A long time ago I read several articles from a Shari Stines PhD.    They were very hard hitting articles.   They pulled no punches.    I specifically remember Stines saying "There will be little to no mutuality, collaboration or cooperation." and that "She will rarely consider your feelings; and will only do so if it serves her some how."

Once it was made explicit like that, I could see how much of my relationship was about me being an object that produced (emotional) services for my then Partner now Ex without regard to me as a person.   Once I saw it, I could not unsee it, so to speak.     In many ways, she treated me as if I existed merely to meet her needs.

maybe this isn't the case for you.    maybe your wife is capable of seeing you as a three dimensional person with your own needs and wants?   In which case I am at a loss trying to come up with a reason she wouldn't participate in the problem solving by beginning to describe what she wants to talk about, how she could feel loved, wanted, desired and supported.   it's quite a curious dilemma you are describing.

my two cents
'ducks

[thankful person]

Not Wendy and Ducks, thank you for your responses and support. I have been trying to come to terms with the knowledge that this relationship may not work out. I am inclined to think that my wife totally sees me in her future even though she says we “aren’t together”. And I know that actually I could be the one to say, “I’ve had enough and I’m leaving.” I am waiting for her to hopefully stabilise once baby gets a bit bigger. It might sound crazy but it did happen before. She was so stable and calm and I was so confident I could handle her, this stage lasted over a year… I know things are very complicated with divorces involving children. If I can stay and my wife decides I’m actually not so bad… then I’m willing to put up with my wife’s bpd and continue putting in the work alone to improve the relationship. If things do go back to how it was last year then I would be very happy to know the children are far less exposed to my wife’s issues.

I do know that my wife is delusional. When we first met, she was jealous that I could drive and she couldn’t. I put her on my car insurance as she had had a few lessons and wanted to learn. She refused to drive the car! Every time we went out, if I asked her if she wanted to drive it was “no, don’t feel like it, we’re not on the right kind of road, stop pressuring me” etc etc. if I ever didn’t ask if she wanted a turn driving… then we’d get home and later she’d turn on me: “why didn’t you ask if I wanted to drive today? You could have suggested it..” So I started asking her every time we were in the car… like every 20 minutes… and was accused of pressuring her. She barely did drive that car all year, so that was one of my first experiences of my wasting a large amount of money due to her. And I wasn’t to know until years later… but I also think it’s a good description of what’s known as the “dysfunctional dance” between pwbpd and caretaker.

At the moment, it has been a much better day. It’s because I lost it a bit yesterday when my wife pressured me into telling her the cost of the Valentine’s gift. Today she did the same kind of thing and got me to agree to stop teaching piano students at the house and the later online ones, because it is disruptive to our children’s bedtime routines. Whilst this is true, it is due to her insistence on putting each of the children to sleep individually then she lays in bed with the eldest and falls asleep and I have to come and wake her up. No sooner I got angry and caved in about the lessons… she backtracked and said actually it’s ok for now. She likes to see me get angry and upset and admits to this. When I’m feeling strong then apparently I show no emotion. It’s like she won’t let it go until I do. I know that I am back to caretaking more these days. It’s necessary to keep a relative amount of peace. I want you both to know that I am still so much happier than I was when I joined bpd family and my children are also doing well.

So yes, I do know that I’m not responsible for my wife’s feelings. I know there’s little I can do to change her mind. I know that one reason she doesn’t want us or me to go to therapy is because she doesn’t want someone else validating me and my understanding of a crazy situation.

I hope that makes sense. Please ask more questions if you want to understand more. I don’t mind and I know you guys will always say I need a therapist but I do think bpd family has been a good substitute for me.. I think one reason I’m so invested in this relationship (apart from the kids), is the fact that I left a good man who loved me, to be with my wife. He was so devastated and broken and it took a long time to forgive myself but I’m doing much better than I was.

If you want to share it though, I’m still also interested in what “normal” people do talk about? (Especially with a pwbpd)…

[babyducks]

When we first met, she was jealous that I could drive and she couldn’t. I put her on my car insurance as she had had a few lessons and wanted to learn. She refused to drive the car! Every time we went out, if I asked her if she wanted to drive it was “no, don’t feel like it, we’re not on the right kind of road, stop pressuring me” etc etc. if I ever didn’t ask if she wanted a turn driving… then we’d get home and later she’d turn on me: “why didn’t you ask if I wanted to drive today? You could have suggested it..” So I started asking her every time we were in the car… like every 20 minutes… and was accused of pressuring her. 

thankful person -

I've thought about this a lot and what you describe reminds me rather strongly of the 'Arbitrary Rule Making of Narcissists'.    I don't know how helpful that label is in describing the behavior pattern.  Still, I think it makes sense to talk it through.

arbitrary rule-making is a hallmark of narcissism.    the experts say it comes from the need for control and the sense of entitlement that are part of the disorder.   also involved is the narcissist's need to be the better person by artificially creating a ~bad~ person.   a rule breaker.   its a pretty complicated mix.

Don't play the piano.  But earn more money so I can spend it.   Teach me to drive.   But not that way.    Don't wear your wedding ring.  But make me feel desired and supported.    Don't wear that outfit.    Don't dress the children in those clothes.    Don't teach students at the house.    Oh never mind its okay to teach for now.

The rules appear arbitrary and inconsistent but aren't really.

This is a quote from an another website:

Another reason narcissists make arbitrary rules is because they need to make their victims bad. When you break a rule, in the narcissists eyes, you are bad. One common pattern of a narcissist is the need for their targets to be bad bad spouses, bad children, bad employees, etc. This feeds in to the narcissists need to feel victimized and justified in punishing you.

She likes it when you get angry and upset because you are then the bad person and that soothes her.   It reinforces her sense of superiority.

I'm not suggesting your wife is NPD.    You've read enough and done enough learning to know that NPD and BPD are very closely related.    They are so close on the spectrum that it is hard to see the difference sometimes and I think this might be one of them.   

For a person who is organized along the BPD/NPD spectrum, the rules are always changing in ways that will help increase their sense of entitlement while protecting their unstable sense of self.

Unfortunately I think that if you want to improve how you relate to your wife you might need to really grapple with this idea and come to terms with how it impacts you.

If you want to share it though, I’m still also interested in what “normal” people do talk about? (Especially with a pwbpd)…

What "normal" people talk about?    Shared experiences, concerns, observations.   What a non disordered person talks about with a pwBPD?    My experience was much of the conversation centered around my partner's list of grievances and fears.    If some political thing was happening that usually fueled her sense of outrage.    It helped if the political thing actually was outrageous.    She loved the drama of the theater and movies, much more so than me.    All that second hand emotion wore me out.   Intellectually she was quite driven and highly curious.   In one episode of bipolar mania, she wrote a book in like two weeks.    Getting it published took longer and was fodder for many conversations.    Conversations usually focus on or around her.    What she thought, what she observed,   not so much what she liked or didn't like because that changed rapidly.     She had very high needs for attention and validation.    So a lot of conversation was about, most simply put,   her.

hope this helps
'ducks

[Notwendy]

I think what is "normal" content can vary a lot but I think one main component is reciprocity. There can also be cultural, personality,  and social influences. My H prefers to have conversations be concise and just get to the point already. I think a long emotional heart to heart talk would drive him bonkers but I recognize that he makes efforts to adapt to my more talkative style and I try to adapt to his preference. I can then call up one of my female friends and we can talk for what seems like ages to my H. There's a reciprocity though, I am interested in the other person and what they have to say, and they are also interested in me and what I have to say and that we try to accommodate each other's speaking style.

With my BPD mother, conversations are not reciprocal. They are need based and focused on meeting her needs. Consider that if a pwBPD has difficulty managing their own emotions, then they are not capable of being an emotional support person to anyone else. I listen to my mother discuss her feelings. If she asks about me, it's not out of interest in me, it's to gather information about me or the children to talk about with others as she likes to be "in the know" about us. That's normal to want to be informed about family, but it's about her needs. She has that NPD trait of not being empathetic and she may even get angry at me for sharing anything emotional on my part. We may talk about current events, things like that, but there's not the quality of reciprocity in terms of the relationship. The focus is on her.

[thankful person]

Thank you baby ducks and not Wendy. My wife has “painted me white” again (briefly?), as she did on our anniversary, then at Christmas, new year, and now for Valentine’s Day. I’m being cautious not to feel too happy about it knowing I can’t trust her.

The narcissist’s arbitrary rule making definitely makes sense, especially how you put all those examples ducks and I could give many more. This is my perception, and please tell me if you think I have this wrong: a narcissist thinks they are better than others and they hurt and manipulate those closest to them because they get pleasure out of causing pain. They might be inwardly laughing or smirking about the whole fiasco, the way their loved ones can “never win”.

I don’t believe my wife is cruel at heart, the way narcissists are portrayed in the media etc. I do genuinely believe that my wife wants to love me and wishes that she could feel that I was expressing myself as she wants me to. That doesn’t mean there is an actual magic answer that I can ever “get right”. As I say, I believe she is delusional in believing every thought she utters, whether that is controlling me, bullying me into or out of doing things, stopping me seeing family and friends or anything to do with our relationship.

Another example from earlier on in my relationship was: we would have (what I thought was) a really good day where we got on well, felt close, had fun etc. And then at some point she would suddenly turn on me with something like, “you didn’t even ask how I slept last night!” (Even though I may have said something instead like, “how’s my beautiful girlfriend this morning?”) Or an accusation that I’d ignored her at a family gathering or something. It took me some years to realise that if she says, “I’ve been upset about this all day” it doesn’t by any means mean that that’s true. She would suddenly think, “thankful doesn’t care whether I slept well” and that thought would stick. This would create a new rule for me such as, “always ask her how she slept”.

My wife was horrifically sexually abused as a child. I don’t know the whole truth as I know she lies. But she used to have extremely disturbing ptsd nightmares when we first met, I couldn’t wake her. She would writhe on the bed in agony and terror. And she would talk to me in the nightmares, naming her abusers and if I misheard she would persist in trying to communicate with me. She was not faking this and I do not believe these memories could have been false. Her abuser told her, “you’re damaged goods and no one will ever want you “. It breaks my heart to know that in some sense he was right. My wife had learning disabilities at school which I put down to the trauma. She has few memories of her childhood.

I don’t want to leave her. I want to help her. But I know I can’t do this by telling her how sick she is. Last year I had so much success with the methods I learnt from you all that I was on here all the time telling everyone my success story. I just hope and pray that this will get better once the small baby stage is over again.

I shall remain strong. I know I have choices to make in the future, whether I am to stay or not and if I ever believe it would be best for the children then I would leave. I am determined to regain some more power back and lay off the caretaking and desperation to please. Somehow when I became confident doing all this back in 2021 my wife became more respectful and more calm. Even more sane. I will keep coming back here for support though. You guys are amazing and I will never forget how much you have helped me. 

[Pook075]

My BPD wife and I have been separated for 7 months, and I've been talking to someone online that I've started to develop feelings for about a month now. 

My conversations while married were all superficial- what's on TV, what will we do this weekend, what should we have for dinner, where should we vacation.  For the past 24 years, I thought that was normal.  Yet for the past 4 weeks, I've talked about what I enjoy in life, my hopes and dreams, the future, etc...and I equally enjoyed learning the same about the gal I'm talking too.  And I realized that for 24 years, how I felt or what I needed in life never really came into the conversation because I was too busy being a caretaker. 

So to directly answer your question, the "normal stuff" to talk about is EXACTLY what feels normal to you.  If your wife wants to talk about different "normal stuff", then only she can start those conversations.  But it's very unfair for someone with BPD w/ NPD traits to expect you to know what is normal to them. 

The only advice I can give is to directly ask- what do you want to talk about?  Or, if you want to go a different route, ask directly about different aspects of her day (which is essentially asking about her feelings since that's what she runs on).

[Pook075]

Oh, one other thing- I didn't quote your last post that talks about your wife's past.  That's horiffic and I'm so sorry she's dealing with that.  I have talked to my therapist about my wife's past (was raped shortly before we met) and the symptoms of BPD and complex PTSD are very similar.  Counseling for PTSD may be an easier subject to discuss if you ever want to talk about therapy for her.  Anyone in her position would need counseling for that stuff.

[Notwendy]

Thank you baby ducks and not Wendy. My wife has “painted me white” again (briefly?), as she did on our anniversary, then at Christmas, new year, and now for Valentine’s Day. I’m being cautious not to feel too happy about it knowing I can’t trust her.

The narcissist’s arbitrary rule making definitely makes sense, especially how you put all those examples ducks and I could give many more. This is my perception, and please tell me if you think I have this wrong: a narcissist thinks they are better than others and they hurt and manipulate those closest to them because they get pleasure out of causing pain.


My wife was horrifically sexually abused as a child. I don’t know the whole truth as I know she lies.

I deal with the "arbitrary rule" situation too. NPD also exists on a spectrum. What you are describing- the getting enjoyment out of hurting people- is at a more extreme end. I have read that the more extreme end involves sociopathy- and even that is on a spectrum.

I read an interesting book called "The Sociopath Next Door" as I suspect my BPD mother has some aspects of this- she sometimes seems to enjoy being hurtful and other times, it seems to be her being defensive - more like BPD projections. When we imagine sociopaths, I think we think of criminals but according to this book, most are not, but they are more subtle about the ways they cause hurt to others.

While my mother has some strong NPD traits, she also has strong BPD ones- more so than NPD, but both cause issues in relationships. At times, she can act cruel and entitled and other times, sad and pitiful.

I am sorry your wife has been so abused. While it's very sad for her, I don't think it's possible to fix this for her. Unfortunately the denial is a hindrance to accepting the help she needs to do for herself. I think you know that with emotional trauma- there's the tendency to re-enact it with the people closest to you. I have wondered at times if this has happened with my BPD mother. I don't have any proof of this- it's not been mentioned- and I don't know who may have done it but I have wondered about this from her behavior. One of the defense mechanisms for abuse is to dissociate, to the point of not having any memory of the event, and she seems to do this.

Abuse can be intergenerational. When someone is abusive, it's very possible they also were abused. They are not necessarily mean cruel people.

[babyducks]

thankful person,

This is my perception, and please tell me if you think I have this wrong: a narcissist thinks they are better than others and they hurt and manipulate those closest to them because they get pleasure out of causing pain. They might be inwardly laughing or smirking about the whole fiasco, the way their loved ones can “never win”. I don’t believe my wife is cruel at heart, the way narcissists are portrayed in the media etc.

I think NotWendy is spot on.   What you are describing appear to be sociopathy- Not NPD - narcissistic personality disorder.    Any portrayal for the media would be made way more dramatic than likely in real life.   the drama sells more tickets.

this is a simple definition of NPD that will work for our little discussion.

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder characterized by a life-long pattern of exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, a diminished ability or unwillingness to empathize with others' feelings, and interpersonally exploitative behavior.

To be honest, I can't think of a better example of grandiose feelings of self importance than; don't take a shower if I can't/haven't had one because I don't want you to look/feel better than me.   I know you ascribe these feelings to jealousy but to me it seems that your wife has a very hard time with the perceptions that you are the same and/or better than her in any way.   You play the piano better than she does, and that can't be tolerated so you must stop playing the piano. You can drive and I can't so you need to fix this, while I maintain the illusion that you are the ~bad~ person (teaching me incorrectly) and I am the perfect person (not learning easily because my teacher is poor).  I am sure you have other examples.

I do genuinely believe that my wife wants to love me and wishes that she could feel that I was expressing myself as she wants me to.

A single behavior, or any behavior really can have many different motivations behind it.   NotWendy described her mother's interactions upstream in this thread.    That conversations with her mother tend to be transactional not reciprocal.   That her mother wants to know the latest news, not because she is genuinely interested, but because that gives her a 'one up', the importance of knowing things first.   It serves her mother's needs first anything else is secondary.

My wife has “painted me white” again (briefly?), as she did on our anniversary, then at Christmas, new year, and now for Valentine’s Day. I’m being cautious not to feel too happy about it knowing I can’t trust her.

the question is, why did she paint you white, and why on the holidays?   what is the motivation for the action?   there could be many different reasons.    people who are organized on the BPD/NPD level will not have the same motivation as people who don't process events in the same way.    it could be that

• she wants to appear successful and happy on a romantic holiday
• she fears the loneliness of being 'single' today
• strong emotions are pushing her to create an immediate romantic moment
• she wants the 'special' moment to fill her sense of emptiness

it could be a combination of all these motivations.    what's likely though is her motivation is not the same as yours would be.   and that her motivation is more likely attached to her frantic attempts to get her needs met.    I say this a lot.   terribly repetitive but for me it was a significant understanding.    a long time ago the P I was seeing told me ". she will project her bad behaviors onto you, and you will project your good intentions onto her – neither is accurate."   when she said that I could finally see it.   in the situation you described, I would have been projecting my good intentions onto my partner,   she doesn't want me to feel bad on Valentine's Day, that's why she said/did that.    She really does love me and want me to know it, even with all our problems.    She does care about me.    All of those things would be things I was thinking and feeling and I would just assume that she was or could be functioning from the same place.

Another example from earlier on in my relationship was: we would have (what I thought was) a really good day where we got on well, felt close, had fun etc. And then at some point she would suddenly turn on me with something like, “you didn’t even ask how I slept last night!” (Even though I may have said something instead like, “how’s my beautiful girlfriend this morning?”) Or an accusation that I’d ignored her at a family gathering or something. It took me some years to realise that if she says, “I’ve been upset about this all day” it doesn’t by any means mean that that’s true. She would suddenly think, “thankful doesn’t care whether I slept well” and that thought would stick. This would create a new rule for me such as, “always ask her how she slept”.

these new abritary rules that pop up randomly and especially after a good day keep her feeling emotionally safe.   that put her in a position on the Karpman Drama Triangle where she is in charge, you are scrambling to satisfy her,  where she is the victim that needs to be cared for and you are tasked with making her life totally entirely perfect.

My wife was horrifically sexually abused as a child. I don’t know the whole truth as I know she lies.

I'm terribly sorry.    I'm sure you've read that the theory is that people who have the genetic dispostion to mental health disorders can be triggered to develop the full blown illness by traumatic events.

I don’t want to leave her. I want to help her. But I know I can’t do this by telling her how sick she is.

what you can do is keep learning.    really figure out what is going on between you and face it bravely and honestly.   in a way it is like peeling an onion, under one layer is another layer.    there is always more to learn, more understanding to glean.

I am determined to regain some more power back and lay off the caretaking and desperation to please. Somehow when I became confident doing all this back in 2021 my wife became more respectful and more calm. Even more sane.

I think there is something in this insight.    there is something in this idea of the desperation to please being not good for either of you.    it might be fruitful to explore that and see what comes of it.

my two cents (okay this was too long so my three cents.)
'ducks

[Notwendy]

thankful person,
 


A single behavior, or any behavior really can have many different motivations behind it.   NotWendy described her mother's interactions upstream in this thread.    That conversations with her mother tend to be transactional not reciprocal.   That her mother wants to know the latest news, not because she is genuinely interested, but because that gives her a 'one up', the importance of knowing things first.   It serves her mother's needs first anything else is secondary.

the question is, why did she paint you white, and why on the holidays?   what is the motivation for the action?   there could be many different reasons.    people who are organized on the BPD/NPD level will not have the same motivation as people who don't process events in the same way.    

these new arbitrary rules that pop up randomly and especially after a good day keep her feeling emotionally safe.   that put her in a position on the Karpman Drama Triangle where she is in charge, you are scrambling to satisfy her,  where she is the victim that needs to be cared for and you are tasked with making her life totally entirely perfect.

I see these situations play out with my BPD mother frequently. If BPD mother isn't in told about something and finds out someone else in the family was told first, she gets angry. Sometimes, it's just an oversight- like news about a family pet. She doesn't like pets so we might not think to tell her.

There are arbitrary rules. She will ask you to do minor things for her, even if she can do them herself because she wants you to be subordinate to her. It's hard to tell if she's being deliberately cruel or putting you down in order to feel superior.

If she paints me white, it's often due to wanting something from me, and I may not know what that is. I have learned though that it's not a genuine interest in me, but something she wants or needs. I know this is different from a romantic bond- but it seems to be more about what I can do for her.

[thankful person]

Yet for the past 4 weeks, I've talked about what I enjoy in life, my hopes and dreams, the future, etc...and I equally enjoyed learning the same about the gal I'm talking too. 

Pook thank you for your comments. I’m glad you feel that way and I really hope it works out for you. I personally feel I’m totally “over” relationships because I felt exactly like that when I first met my wife (also online). She loved to listen to me talk about absolutely anything even allowing me to talk about my ex who I was still currently with. My relationship at the time had also become mundane after 14 years but that relationship also started off amazing. So I genuinely feel like if I fell in love again I’d be like, “yeah whatever”. Lol.

As for my wife needing therapy, her ptsd symptoms are very much resolved now. It was most bizarre but I don’t know enough about it to know whether this is a common phenomenon. The story is my wife was raped many times by her uncle (mother’s brother) alongside his friends. She also used to sleep around and prostitute herself so I’m not sure how mixed up these stories became. But after about maybe 8 months of her talking to me in the nightmares saying things like, “Don’t let him in” “don’t let him hurt me” etc. She gave my the names of many men who had hurt her. Eventually she was talking about “Dan” and when I said “Dan” she’s like, “not Dan” and “ he wouldn’t have been there, he can’t have been there..” She was very insistent. And then I realised she was saying “Dad” not “Dan”. So saying her Dad raped her along with her uncle and friends. So who knows if that actually happened… The day after that I told her about what she had said. She had no memory of saying it in the nightmare and no memory of her Dad being with uncle, although she had previously said to me that Dad had abused her. But after that, the nightmares almost completely stopped, apparently she still has them but there was no more writhing in terror or talking to me during them. Honestly I am still so disturbed by all this but it does appear that I was some form of help in helping her to move on from this (when we first fell in love online she was still living with parents, sometimes I would watch her sleep on Skype as i was on the opposite side of the world. I would see her have the nightmares and I would phone her and the phone wouldn’t wake her…) The unfortunate thing about this is that because my wife has moved on from that terrifying stage she is even more in denial of needing any further professional help.

Ducks and not Wendy, thank you also for further thoughts. Ducks I will certainly continue to try and understand what’s going on as best I can. I still feel I shouldn’t be talking about my wife but as you know I need help and ironically one reason I’m here is because she “denies” me therapy. Not Wendy, it’s funny you would mention “subordinate”. My wife often talks to me as though she is my superior at work. Which is particularly odd given that she’s barely ever worked or stuck at any job for long and never had a supervisory position. It’s just things like, “could you change baby’s nappy for me?” And more her tone of voice than anything but the “for me” is what makes me feel like I’m being asked to do a task at work.

[Notwendy]

That is a similar paradox with my BPD mother. My mother has not really ever had a job outside the home. Although she is very intelligent, I think her BPD would make it difficult to stay with a job. Whether or not she'd have been capable of that would not have been noticed in her era where girls were expected to become "housewives" and not work outside the home. From what I could see, she didn't do much inside the home either.

I have posted before about purpose and work ( inside or outside the home) as a source of self esteem and accomplishment. I think that is true for everyone but if someone has a poor sense of self, how do they gain this if they don't have it? For my BPD mother, it has been by accomplishments of her family. If people with PD's see their children as extensions of themselves, then our achievements reflect on them.

Of course we are proud of our children and hope they have accomplishments of their own, but as Ducks pointed out as well- there may be differences in motivation. If my kids achieve something, I am both happy for them, and also proud but I know it's their accomplishment, not mine. With BPD mother, there's a sense of ownership.

Some BPD behaviors are about avoiding shame. I think some of this "ordering around" may be part of this, as well as building self esteem. I think when she sees your talents, it may remind her that she doesn't have these- so she restricts your piano playing to avoid that. My mother also tends to put us down and order us around, and act like she's superior to us. My father was a high functioning person. Maybe it does something for my mother to order high functioning people around, to have us serve her. My mother designates what she sees as menial tasks to us, tasks she won't do and maybe that makes her feel superior.

[thankful person]

Not Wendy, I am also of the opinion that people need to be contributing to something, to have a sense of purpose, whether that is paid employment or otherwise. I was also a depressed and lazy teenager, but whilst my wife’s mother never let her do anything, my mother just did everything for me out of choice like even taking a mug out to the kitchen, and it didn’t help my self-esteem. When my Dad’s Parkinson’s got bad she told him not to bother helping with the dishwasher as he was breaking stuff and I found this very sad as it was the only thing he could do. I would have had more purpose as a child and teen had I been contributing to household chores more. My little ones love helping with daily cleaning and tidying.

I like to have tasks to do but if I look like I’m getting some satisfaction out of it, even just cleaning, my wife will try to find a reason for me to stop. If I’m changing a nappy and the child is having a fun time with me she will come and join in. As my wife doesn’t like getting up early then I get to get everybody ready in the mornings which I love.

Interesting about being proud as an extension of themselves… Although my wife will still make comments sometimes about how it’s not fair that I can play the piano and she can’t, on other occasions she livestreams my performances on the internet, shares my songs on Facebook and if family or even tradespeople are round here she asks me to play for them, and it does feel like she’s proud of me.

[babyducks]

Interesting about being proud as an extension of themselves… Although my wife will still make comments sometimes about how it’s not fair that I can play the piano and she can’t, on other occasions she livestreams my performances on the internet, shares my songs on Facebook and if family or even tradespeople are round here she asks me to play for them, and it does feel like she’s proud of me.

Is she proud of you ThankfulPerson or is she using your accomplishments to increase her own stature and importance?

[thankful person]

Is she proud of you ThankfulPerson or is she using your accomplishments to increase her own stature and importance?

I don’t think she’s proud of me because it always has to be on her terms, she would hate it if I played the piano for anyone without her suggestion or shock horror did my own live stream… I think for some reason she likes her status as someone who has a wife who plays and teaches the piano and writes songs.