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Author Topic: I'm honestly not sure if she even has BPD, or if I have it, or both of us  (Read 1187 times)
Smedley Butler
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« on: February 16, 2023, 10:07:31 AM »

I have been married for twelve years, and it has been a very rocky twelve years. Recently, a friend sent me a link to a Reddit page for loved ones of those with BPD. I stayed up half the night reading stories from survivors and those still enduring the difficulties of being in a relationship with someone who has BPD. Reading these stories felt like I was coming out of a fog. Suddenly all of the confusion of the previous decade-plus made sense.

But now I'm second guessing myself as I read about these symptoms. Many of the things that I read about and think to myself - holy PLEASE READ my wife does that all the time, are also things that my wife ACCUSES me of all the time. So am I projecting my PLEASE READ on to her? Or is she the one with the mental illness? Maybe we're both crazy?

I'm trying to objectively self-evaluate my memories of the last twelve years, but now I'm wondering if maybe I'm the PLEASE READed up one? Do crazy people know they're crazy? is the question I keep asking myself.

We have two little girls and keeping them healthy and safe and sane is my priority.  I am willing to stick out a miserable marriage if it helps them, but I am also aware that divorce may ultimately be the best thing for them.  But to me divorce is the nuclear option.


EDIT - sorry, i guess profanity isnt allowed.  I'm a Marine so profanity is like breathing.  I'll dial it back.
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2023, 12:01:21 PM »

Hey Smedly,

Welcome to fam... Sounds like you're weighing a lot so venting is a natural thing.   

We do try to keep the language above board because any number of people are reading... AND no worries about being in a place where what needs to come out comes out. You just go back and edit after the fact and then that's part of the journey.

You've asked all the basic questions that all of us ask when we arrive here.  There can be lots of thoughts and emotions to sort out.  And because the behavior we need to confront is hard to track we can be left baffled... and so yes - the question of "do people who are disordered know that they are disordered?" is one that only has a "maybe" attached to it.

So again, venting gets you closer to the answer you're looking for.

I'm beginning to ramble - so I'll stop.

My main reason is to say welcome, hang around here for a while and things will become clearer. In the meantime, I am wondering if there isn't a military chaplain or something that you could also chat with. You are most certainly not the only person in the services to have family issues.   Thank you for your service to your country - btw.

Hang in there,

Reach out any time as things come to mind.

Let's see who else weighs in.

Rev
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Smedley Butler
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2023, 12:12:06 PM »

my experience with Navy chaplains hovers somewhere between REALLY bad and PRETTY bad.  they mostly have a checklist of things they go over with you, and then refer you to whatever medical authority their checklist tells them to.  unless someone just happens to know one who takes extra special care in their work, they're mostly useless.

that said, I talk to a therapist myself that I just pay out of pocket for.  my wife and i both see another therapist (same guy, but we see him separately) as well.  so far she refuses to see the same counselor together with me in the room.  this was actually the first huge red flag that led me down this path of discovery ending up with my armchair psychiatric diagnosis of my wife.  i could not understand for the life of me why she wouldnt want to see our therapist TOGETHER.  he has been seeing both of us separately for months, so he clearly knows both "sides", seeing him together and putting some objective facts out there to build a way forward from seems very logical and smart to me.  of course once i started devouring reading about BPD it's very clear why she doesnt want to see him with me in the room, and that's because it will likely become readily clear that the story she has woven to him is mostly BS (hopefully i can at least say BS )
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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2023, 02:15:27 PM »

Hi.  Regarding the question of which one of you is "crazy", my understanding is that there is a common pairing of BPD with 2 types of people: Caretakers and Narcissists, it could be that you fit one of these profiles.  Perhaps something to talk about with your therapist. 

I also recently had the big AHA moment regarding my wife and BPD and it's actually helped the situation because she accepts her condition.  If there's a way to get her to move towards acknowledging the problem and have that AHA moment for herself, it could help the healing begin.
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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2023, 08:34:26 PM »

I am a sailor and have worked with the Marines - ooh-rah!

I concur with how useless military chaplains are [many, not all], no real resources for BPD.  Also BPD diagnosis on a psych eval is career-ending discharge material, avoiding official channels for yourself, do go off-base for help with a private therapist.

I am going to recommend two books, about 8 hours read each with re-reads to wrap your head around what is going on and give you some tools to deal with what you are dealing with.

“Stop Walking on Eggshells” by Paul T. Mason and Randi Kreger [3rd edition] as it has  excellent tools to assess your person with BPD.

“Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life” by Margalis Fjelstad this one will go into the 'caretaker' role of the borderline, and addresses the feelings of if you are the crazy one.  If you are the one thinking that you are the one messed up, 9/10 you are not, you might have some issues, but you likely do not have BPD - I just went through two deep dives on myself on this very topic with two different therapists as the mental abuse is definitely 'crazy-making' with the amount of gaslighting, transference, and projection.

P.S.  You should have different individual counselors, and a different couple's counselor to avoid conflict of interest.  However, do have them talk to each other with releases should they have questions that need to be addressed.

I know you guys exercise, but do self-care for yourself.

Take Care.
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2023, 06:13:50 AM »

my experience with Navy chaplains hovers somewhere between REALLY bad and PRETTY bad.  they mostly have a checklist of things they go over with you, and then refer you to whatever medical authority their checklist tells them to.  unless someone just happens to know one who takes extra special care in their work, they're mostly useless.

that said, I talk to a therapist myself that I just pay out of pocket for.  my wife and i both see another therapist (same guy, but we see him separately) as well.  so far she refuses to see the same counselor together with me in the room.  this was actually the first huge red flag that led me down this path of discovery ending up with my armchair psychiatric diagnosis of my wife.  i could not understand for the life of me why she wouldnt want to see our therapist TOGETHER.  he has been seeing both of us separately for months, so he clearly knows both "sides", seeing him together and putting some objective facts out there to build a way forward from seems very logical and smart to me.  of course once i started devouring reading about BPD it's very clear why she doesnt want to see him with me in the room, and that's because it will likely become readily clear that the story she has woven to him is mostly BS (hopefully i can at least say BS )

Well that's too bad. Where I'm from, Military Chaplains get special training. They are actually seen as top notch ministers if and when they return to their churches.  So didn't mean to step in it there.

I'm with SD - sounds like Bi-Polarity (which is often mistaken for BPD and vice-versa). The "good news" about that is that if it is the case, and she is willing, Bi-Polarity can be successfully managed - more so than BPD I'd say.

If you are correct and it is BPD, then you'd do well to continue to work with your T to develop the understanding of the BPD condition, your own attachment style and get some personal clarity around where your personal limits are.  These relationships, as you are already saying in your own way, can really mess with your head.

I'd say that once you have clarity about where you personal limits are (in terms of not burning out) then you are so right - ask yourself what is best for your girls.  

What do you think is the best way for you to figure out what's best for you to provide what is best for your girls?

Hang in there. You're asking all the right questions.

Rev

PS - BS?  You mean  Bull Spit right  LOL
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2023, 05:29:43 PM »

Hi - I found this thread interesting as I too have asked myself - do I have  it as well?  I mean I’ve been living with this thing for so long I don’t even know who I am right now - particularly since I didn’t know what BPD was until a couple of weeks ago.  I just finished up reading the second book SD recommended to you - “Stop Caretaking….” And I can honestly say after reading that - that I don’t have it - but living with someone who does has really messed me up and my kids.

I’m retired military and I will say I had some good luck with Chaplains - but not for this issue - so maybe they aren’t equipped to deal with mental illness like a therapist is.  The nice thing about Chaplains is that they always listen and seem to genuinely care - at least in my experience.  I knew a great one at Cherry Point that helped me out with a lot of stuff - but it was all related to PTSD stuff you get from the job. 

And that’s another thing…. Dealing with a BPD spouse on top of all the crap I’ve dealt with in the field really sucks!
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2023, 01:13:52 AM »

Very strange this pops up now as I have literally just been wondering if the constant chaos and emotional instability of being in a relationship with someone with bpd can itself bring on bpd like disorders in the partners. After all it does seem a lot like my bfs bpd is linked back to his parents, and being in a high stress relationship for a long time is bound to have some effect.

So just recently I completely flipped out after a few drinks… the sort of behaviour I would normally have to patiently tolerate from my bf. I’m struggling to understand if it’s because I was just angry and felt it was my turn to let rip or whether I am actually now having my own emotional instability issues… I probably have issues anyway but this came out of nowhere and he actually did nothing to even begin to justify my behaviour. And he was exceptionally rational for once, and he has done a lot of work to help with his bpd since we have been together. Now I’m wondering if he’s just passed it on to me instead! Is BPD contagious….?
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2023, 02:46:02 AM »

Justapotato,

   It is possible, it is called 'transference'. 

   I have experienced it on the receiving end in the form of countertransference from a couple's therapists who had her own mental health issues.  I have also dished it out one time under a different set of circumstances than yours - very scary when you get triggered so much, you can kind of lose it, it can give you more empathy and sympathy towards the borderline as borderlines go through something similar in much much worse way.

   Here is a primer article on 'transference' this is a concept that Freud himself introduced:  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/transference.

   After reading that article, come back, and ask questions.

SD
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2023, 05:15:06 AM »

Hello Just and SD,

This is a great exchange; one that would get more attention I think, if it were a separate thread.

What do you think?

Rev
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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2023, 06:57:21 PM »

Hello Smedley,
Welcome to the group. I just wanted to share that I myself had been questioning if I myself was displaying BPD traits due to high emotional intensity and interpersonal instability during a period of crisis. Some things that will help you clarify that will be, outside of this stressful situation, did you display similar characteristics in the past with other close relationships and during routine disagreements?

I also wanted to mention that my T was suggesting it was a trauma response to dealing with the instability and uncertainty while dealing with a BPD spouse. Additionally, there is a defense called projective identification wherein BPD partners will essentially induce a certain behavior (through projection) and then our uncontrolled response will be a confirmation to them that we are going to abandon them.

As for dealing with BPD in general, not all t's or psychiatrist's are trained well enough to deal with their challenges. I wish you God's blessing on your journey of life and hope that you are able to find an excellent t that meets your needs.
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Smedley Butler
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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2023, 09:48:42 AM »

thanks all for the replies and consideration.  it helps to hear that I'm not alone in the struggle and that i'm also not alone in wondering if I'm actually the one with the issue.  i completed "stop walking on eggshells" and "i hate you dont leave me" over the weekend, and i started "stop caretaking" this morning on my drive to work.  so much of the stuff just in the first chapter is resonating so much. 

over the last three weeks or so i have made a deliberate effort to not engage with her in arguments.  this has been affecting her in a pretty remarkable way.  i've literally changed no other behavior pertaining to my family other than to just "not argue", and she seems to not be able to handle it.  during our couples therapy session last Friday she could barely speak - she just sat and cried with only a few angry emotional outbursts.  at one point she just sat there sobbing and saying "i'm just so unhappy".  unfortunately the therapist didnt explore that comment really...i think he might be in over his head on this situation.

Friday night I tried to have a discussion with her about some topics that the therapist brought up but she would barely speak to me.  she just kept telling me about all the times i've been so horrible to her and that I never take responsibility for wrongdoing.  i finally just came out and asked her if she thinks i'm just a bad person who wants to make her suffer, to which she replied "i think you have been intentionally stealing joy from me during times that I should be happy for our entire marriage".  as if I chose to marry her and have children with her just so i could make her suffer?  i really had no reply to that.  didnt know what to say.  i'm still unpacking it i guess.
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Smedley Butler
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2023, 09:58:23 AM »

I think the most maddening thing is to sit there and listen to her accuse me almost word for word and action for action of exactly what she has been doing to me for twelve years.  i feel that i have no response to this, because all i can say back is "i'm not the one doing that, you are!" which just feels like this stupid tit for tat, i-know-you-are-but-what-am-i back and forth that goes nowhere, and i think even makes therapists throw their hands up
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2023, 10:55:01 AM »

I think the most maddening thing is to sit there and listen to her accuse me almost word for word and action for action of exactly what she has been doing to me for twelve years.  i feel that i have no response to this, because all i can say back is "i'm not the one doing that, you are!" which just feels like this stupid tit for tat, i-know-you-are-but-what-am-i back and forth that goes nowhere, and i think even makes therapists throw their hands up

What you are describing is 'projection' which is similar to 'transference' which I previously mentioned with a link with the exception that one doesn't actually do what she is ascribing to you.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/projection
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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2023, 06:18:09 PM »

Maybe we're both crazy?

youre both part of a dysfunctional relationship.

in your own ways, you are both contributing to the dysfunction. i think thats as much a given as the sky is blue. it cant not be. though thats not the same as saying that either of you are "crazy". it means youre both doing things that arent working for either of you personally, or the relationship. over time, that can degrade the relationship, increase the dysfunction, and, certainly, harm your mental health and peace of mind. its a difficult question youre asking, because it can be difficult to know which way is up, and i imagine you feel like youve tried everything you can think of. if it helps, she probably feels similarly.

the good news is that not only do you have the ability to chart a new course (this will take lots of learning, practice, and support) but our loved ones often follow our lead when we do. and, at worst, by doing so, you are reducing the dysfunction and breaking the cycle.

for example, this:

Excerpt
over the last three weeks or so i have made a deliberate effort to not engage with her in arguments.  this has been affecting her in a pretty remarkable way.  i've literally changed no other behavior pertaining to my family other than to just "not argue", and she seems to not be able to handle it.

theres a fine line between "not contributing to the dysfunction" or "not participating in a circular argument" and "stonewalling". the latter causes resentment and distrust, and its a relationship killer. its difficult to say, from your description, which of those it is.

how is therapy going with her in general? are you getting individual therapy?
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2023, 06:38:08 AM »

Hi.  Regarding the question of which one of you is "crazy", my understanding is that there is a common pairing of BPD with 2 types of people: Caretakers and Narcissists, it could be that you fit one of these profiles...

Can a person be a caretaker and a narcissist?

The reason I ask, in my opinion my father was a covert narcissist.  He also took care of my mother in many respects, especially when she was terminally ill.  He needed to show his "superiority" and he did this through caring for her and staying in a relationship with a very toxic woman.  After she died, his narcissistic supply dissapeared (my mother, or perhaps more correctly my father's ability to care for her and use her to fulfill his damaged needs -- this was not healthy love) and my father died soon after.  He martyred himself, was unaware of his own needs, rejected them and on his death bed said outloud "I feel like I've wasted my life".

The reason I ask, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree at times.  I was diagnosed as a narcissist years ago (I've recovered a lot, hopefully always improving), but I have also ALWAYS been most attracted to women that need my help, yet women that don't necessarily outwardly appreciate it.  Because I don't get the response I "need", I eventually end up feeling resentful, very alone and miserable...which ironically is how I feel about myself deep down (as does the person with BPD).

I can't "fix" people -- I am not God...but I still will try and abandon my own legitimate needs in the process.  I think this one of the ways NPDs and BPDs are similar -- our goals, our defense mechanisms...they are simply unattainable.  They may fix things and feel good for a while, but they are toxic and unsustainable. 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2023, 06:44:33 AM by captain5024 » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2023, 03:21:49 PM »

Excerpt
I think the most maddening thing is to sit there and listen to her accuse me almost word for word and action for action of exactly what she has been doing to me for twelve years.  i feel that i have no response to this, because all i can say back is "i'm not the one doing that, you are!" which just feels like this stupid tit for tat, i-know-you-are-but-what-am-i back and forth that goes nowhere, and i think even makes therapists throw their hands up

I totally agree. This is infuriating and unfair. It can make you think you are going crazy. It can rob you of the very things you would like to say in return. Being surrounded by such a high level of projection and sometimes delusion and seeing your person with BPD not be able to recognize this can make you start questioning yourself and reality.

What I found helpful:

Don't give in to those urges that create tit for tat. Say nothing or, if you can, try to validate her feelings (her feelings, not her lies or delusions). Then vent like heck (I'm obviously not in the marines) to a friend or therapist or this board because it is hard to be targeted and it is hard to not respond in kind.

Do not get isolated but make time for relationships (non-romantic ones) with people who appreciate you and think well of you. This will help counter the negative light in which she casts you.

Individual therapy and taking good care of myself was helpful for me. I've grown in my ability to trust myself and my own judgement while also trusting that I am open to feedback from others.
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2023, 07:18:00 PM »

Hi.  Regarding the question of which one of you is "crazy", my understanding is that there is a common pairing of BPD with 2 types of people: Caretakers and Narcissists, it could be that you fit one of these profiles.  Perhaps something to talk about with your therapist.

outhere,

I did talk to my therapist, and she agreed it is one or the other - I am a codependent caretaker.  However, my first couples therapist thought I was a narcissist until I started to push back on my wife's false narrative.  I suspect that she ghosted us when my wife started to display traits of the borderline in session and I presented as the more rational one of the two.  

I test on the high side of 'normal' for being a narcissist.  However, due to the countertransference of the first couple's therapist, combined with the gas lighting that my wife did, it was quite the 'mind f**k'.  So, for the better part of half a year, I was verifying what, if any of the allegations that my uBPDw told me was true.


Captain,

You said, "Can a person be a caretaker and a narcissist?"

Wow, that is a really good question.

Since you are a dNPD person, I suspect the easiest way to figure out if you are also a 'caretaker' is to read the following book to see if it resonates with you:  “Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life” by Margalis Fjelstad

I am leaning towards one or the other, let me explain.

You mentioned 'covert narcissist', I am going to shift the focus on to a different more rare form of narcissist, that is in the form of the 'communal narcissist', I strongly suggest that you look up 'communal narcissist' to see if it is a good fit for your father and/or yourself.

Communal narcissists are usually found in non-profits & houses of worship and other areas where there is a lot of 'volunteerism' or 'martyrdom' as you put it.  They are the ones that go out of their way to serve so their 'good deeds' can be recognized by the masses [supply] often stepping on the toes of other volunteers - a 'holier than thou' kind of individual that must show off how much 'good' they have done, often at the expense of other volunteers who actually do the brunt of the labor of love.  They get their narcissistic satisfaction for being acknowledged for their 'good deeds'.   This kind of narcissism can be a win-win for organizations especially if they have exceptional charisma and are able to raise tons of money for a given cause, albeit for a narcissistic reason rather than a reason of genuine giving.


Referencing your father, you said "He martyred himself, was unaware of his own needs, rejected them and on his death bed said outloud "I feel like I've wasted my life"."

Wow, this is how I feel sometimes now that I am retired.  However, I know my strong sense of self knows that I have already lived many lifetimes worth of experiences to the fullest; however, now that I took early retirement, I do "feel like I've wasted my life" taking care of my uBPDw much in the same manner that your father did for your mother almost for the past four years.  I still have at least two good decades left in me, I want to get out of this circle jerk known as the borderline/narcissistic cycle.  However, I also need to take care of my children who have been damaged by the borderline, and reverse as much of it as I can.


I have also ALWAYS been most attracted to women that need my help, yet women that don't necessarily outwardly appreciate it.  Because I don't get the response I "need", I eventually end up feeling resentful, very alone and miserable...which ironically is how I feel about myself deep down (as does the person with BPD).

#MeToo, I attract them like moths to a flame.  They seek me out.  My wife is the 2nd such relationship to a borderline, and I have had a 'therapist' type also with dBPD seek me out to help them solve their own issues.  I have also had some really hot girls hit on me in front of my wife too, that I sensed had some kind of emotional issues - I was just at the beginning stages of learning about the borderline when that happened last year.  Now that I have learned of the traits, I can now spot them a mile away.  My codependent trait allows me to give 300% of myself without expecting much if anything in return, it is a one way street, and it needs to stop.  I have identified it with my current individual T and will be working on strategies to mitigate it here in the near future especially if I wind up divorcing my current wife.


I can't "fix" people -- I am not God...but I still will try and abandon my own legitimate needs in the process.  I think this one of the ways NPDs and BPDs are similar -- our goals, our defense mechanisms...they are simply unattainable.  

That aspect sounds more like a codependent trait than a narcissistic one.


What do you think of 'communal narcissism'?
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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2023, 12:11:08 PM »

Mind f**k indeed.  And it's mentally exhausting to now have to analyze every action I take or word I say to my wife through the lens of how she will use it against me as further evidence of my made-up narcissism.  And that doesnt even include the retconning she does of all of my PAST actions, which are now defined through the lens of my pretend narcissism.  Oh that time two years ago that I wanted to go to the mountains in Arkansas instead of the beach?  Controlling, domineering narcissism evidence!  The eight vacations to the beach that I took my family on that she wanted are mysteriously not part of the equation.

She told me again two nights ago the thing about "I'm intentionally making her unhappy", and then when I asked her if she just thinks I'm an evil person out to get her, she told me thinks there "might still be some good in me".  Even though I know she's just saying whatever crazy sht comes to her mind to lash out at me and try to get an emotional response, it's still psychologically brutal. 

What a miserable life.
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