Being dragged back?

[wantyousafe]

Have moaned here in the past regarding sister and her daughter who kept touching me for money .

Eventually followed your advice and went "dead" although it has killed me!

Now, my niece has borrowed money from her mother (biter being bit), who apparently wants it all back, no explanations...and my niece wants me to lend it to her because of "anxiety".She will sign a loan agreement! But she doesn't pay her commercial lenders back (!)

I think my sister might want the money to give to her son (golden child?) Because his child is seriously ill.

I don't want to get sucked into this PLEASE READ, I've had it one way or another most of my life.

[kells76]

Hi wantyousafe, your post title makes a lot of sense to me -- one day, I'd love to have a life where the chaos, drama, and unpredictability of the kids' mom doesn't drag me back into that toxicity.

How did your niece reach out to you to ask for the money -- text, email, call,?

It sounds like part of you knows how it would likely end:

my niece wants me to lend it to her because of "anxiety".She will sign a loan agreement! But she doesn't pay her commercial lenders back (!)

And like you said,

I don't want to get sucked into this PLEASE READ, I've had it one way or another most of my life.

What would be the worst thing that could happen, were you to tell your niece "Sorry, no"? Do you think you could handle it?

[wantyousafe]

Thanks for replying.
Worst case?
I could lose touch with my sister and/or niece again, but I can cope with that, it doesn't mean much anymore.
I could ruin the relationship between my sister and her daughter, however fake that may be, I don't want that responsibility.
My niece could end up homeless and her marriage could break down because she always needs money when she loses/quote a job and she has zero resources apart from debt and her husband can't pay it all.That's what worries me most but giving in now would delay things, not cure them.I
My niece contacts me by an email that I share with my husband so it's very difficult to change and if I did, she's only write to me instead and she'd get her mom to intervene if she thought that would work!

[kells76]

Hi again wantyousafe;

Thanks for replying.
Worst case?
I could lose touch with my sister and/or niece again, but I can cope with that, it doesn't mean much anymore.
I could ruin the relationship between my sister and her daughter, however fake that may be, I don't want that responsibility.
My niece could end up homeless and her marriage could break down because she always needs money when she loses/quote a job and she has zero resources apart from debt and her husband can't pay it all.That's what worries me most but giving in now would delay things, not cure them.I
My niece contacts me by an email that I share with my husband so it's very difficult to change and if I did, she's only write to me instead and she'd get her mom to intervene if she thought that would work!

Your analysis makes a lot of sense -- you listed out three things you see as "worst case scenarios" and thought them through.

Yes, your sister and/or niece might stop contacting you, but like you said, do you really want that kind of relationship?

You're spot on that you have no control over or responsibility for the relationship between your niece and her mom. That's on them, not you... despite any FOG that they might come up with.

Your niece's ability to manage her own finances, or to seek help in that area, isn't something you have control over, either. How it impacts her marriage is up to her and her husband.

It could be a good thing that your H sees the emails, too. Does he share your perspective about your niece and her mom? Wondering if you can feel supported by him in having healthy boundaries.

Do you think if you did a BIFF (Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm) email back to your niece, that she would quickly look elsewhere for money, or would do an "extinction burst" (tantrum) with you, or... other?

(P.S. BIFF could look like: "Dear Niece, Unfortunately we cannot help you with your financial request. We hope you and your husband are staying healthy. Warmly, WantYouSafe")

[wantyousafe]

Hi :
Yes, my husband knows about it and has tried to help with her financial mess but only once I've decided what to do, he doesn't want to interfere but supports me even if he thinks I'm being stupid.I

I tried the BIFF letter last time, well, in the end, but now she's back.

I've also told her that she is heading into serious trouble and she'll end up in her mother's couch, not mine! Her mother is the cause of all of her problems: she flies along like a butterfly, but underneath, she's just as messed up.

If course, I didn't mention the fourth scenario which everyone on this forum is probably secretly terrified of. That they will do "something stupid". My sister apparently tried to commit suicide as a teenager and my niece tells me that she has got over that phase, so did she try as well?

They have both seen therapists for their issues in the last but under the N.H.S. it only seems to last long enough to take up the past but not confront the present, enough to justify the self pity.

Needless to say, I have not bought a copy of "Spare".I'm sorry that your family is going through this too but you seem to have a grasp of the situation...as much as any of us can!

[Notwendy]

On the topic of finances- My BPD mother has spent her savings and took out a home equity loan as well, possibly purring herself in a financially difficult situation. We are concerned about her and have tried to advise her - but she’s in charge of her money and it’s her decision what to do with it.

It’s not that she does not have enough money - it’s how she spends it.

Giving your niece money doesn’t address the problem which is the spending problem. This isn’t your problem to solve. It’s also a marital issue as her husband is involved. Giving money to them may be enabling.

If you wanted to donate for  the child who has medical issues - something anonymous -like a donation that can be done anonymously is a gift that doesn’t have you appear as a money source - and is directly to the organization that helps.

[wantyousafe]

Hi,
The problem with my niece is that since leaving university twenty years ago she has never settled in employment but has had a series of low paid jobs. She lives hand to mouth (and debt!) and if her husband tries to save an "emergency fund" it gets used to pay rent and living costs first.
When I give her money, it's used to pay rent etcetera until the next job and then in a year or two we are back to square one!
I' ve tried to get her to budget, I've tried to get her to work with Debt charities.
She's following in her mother's footsteps and at one time they would seem to take it in turns to come after me for help.
Her mother has a big "flip" a couple of years ago and she seems to have turned it around a bit after that...and after I cut communications for a while!
What my niece really needs is a job that she wants to do but that is not within my remit.
The alternative might be for her to surrender to her mental issues and try to get benefits but with a husband, that might not be possible.

[Couscous]

If course, I didn't mention the fourth scenario which everyone on this forum is probably secretly terrified of.

Maybe most people here are terrified of that, but I am not one of them. The way I have come to see it is that there’s only a 10% of my pwBPD taking his own life, which means there’s a 90% chance that he won’t, and I figure that those are some pretty good odds. As such, I have decided that I am not going to martyr myself and live my life as an emotional hostage, but to each his own on that one.

I am now the “bad guy” according to almost every single member my family for taking this stance, but that’s just their opinion and their opinion doesn’t define me.

[Mommydoc]

The worst case scenario question is so great.  I appreciate that you surfaced your “4th scenario” of death by suicide. 

If your niece is showing signs of depression, because you care about her,  it is reasonable to straight out ask, “ have you considered hurting yourself?” And if yes, ask specifics, ie, “ do you have a plan?”  And if she has suicidal thoughts, taking the appropriate action to get her mental health care.   And that is about it. 
 
Mental illness is an illness, you didn’t or can’t cause it.  Just like a loved one with cancer,  you can only suggest seeking treatment, you can’t force it.  If a family member chose not to seek treatment for Cancer and died, we would all feel bad, but we would understand they had a bad disease and they knowingly, chose not to seek treatment. We wouldn’t blame ourselves. 

You clearly know that you should not be lending her money, that it will solve nothing for her.  Could you think of it the opposite way, by not loaning her money, you are not enabling her.  And by not enabling her, she may have to deal with the consequences of her choices and actions.   Not until that happens can she get to a better place.  By holding your boundaries, you may be helping her? 

[Couscous]

Mental illness is an illness, you didn’t or can’t cause it.  Just like a loved one with cancer,  you can only suggest seeking treatment, you can’t force it.  If a family member chose not to seek treatment for Cancer and died, we would all feel bad, but we would understand they had a bad disease and they knowingly, chose not to seek treatment. We wouldn’t blame ourselves.  

The problem with this line of reasoning is that when there’s a person with BPD in the family, in many cases the family are quite prepared to blame the person setting boundaries. In my family’s case I was told point blank by both my brother and other family members that if he took his life, it would be my fault.  

[Mommydoc]

I agree Couscous, we each become the target of blame for the pwBPD.  Many times their thinking is distorted and the blame is not appropriate. A few weeks ago, my sister blamed my mothers current condition on me, because my mother had an acute illness 5 years ago when I was out of the country.  My mother was appropriately treated for that illness and fully recovered and she is now suffering from progression of Parkinsons and sequelae of COVID.  The prior and current illnesses are  unrelated, and I didn’t cause any of them,  but  she can’t ( or chooses not to ) process that.  I can’t prevent her from blaming me, but I don’t have to accept the blame.  You may be saying the same thing when you say

that’s just their opinion and their opinion doesn’t define me

In wantyousafe’s situation, her niece and her sister may use guilt and obligation to manipulate her to lend more money.  But it will not solve anything in the long run, and the pattern will likely repeat itself. 

[Notwendy]

 You are not responsible for your niece's underemployment or her financial issues and certainly not to blame for her other decisions either. Of course you care about her but she’s responsible for her financial issues.

There’s a difference between helping someone who is responsible and yet has some temporary situation and the help is to get them back on their feet - and they are motivated to do so and this situation which is a repeated pattern and them coming to you for money. It feels better to be the « good guy » in their opinion than the « bad guy » but continuing to give them money is enabling them and they will likely continue to ask you for money.

[wantyousafe]

Thanks to everyone replying:

I think that they know I am a "soft touch" and play in my overdeveloped sense of guilt (we all have our weaknesses, don't we) but I'm also one of the few people in my family to hold down a decent job and be able to help.

Last time my niece asked for money, I just basically flipped and said that I was out of there and I wished her and her husband the best for the future.I stopped birthday and Christmas cards.

I hoped that by cutting off the finances, she would have to turn around. She has begged me to say nothing to her family about it all because she couldn't stand the shame and says that she can't cope with facing up to her mother, who is the root of her problems.

I'm sick of it, I'm the youngest of four sisters, with big age gaps between us. The eldest is nineteen years older than me, she's normal but "soft" and her is probably a bit bpd, but goodness knows what's happening with her grandson!

The second one is thirteen years older than me, she could be lovely and kind but she could be a demon because it turns out she's got schizophrenia.She tried to commit suicide as a teen and my third sister who was a child, found her.She's been in a nursing home for years following a massive stroke, hereditary but worsened by diabetes, heavy smoking and alcohol.Her daughter took the brunt of my sister's mental illness is a nice woman but has had trauma as a result and has bad autoimmune issues.

Finally, the sister closest to me: my undiagnosed bpd. I idolized her because she had the clothes, records, boyfriends and stuff that a young girl aspires to, ha. I didn't know about the "feet of clay" , the instability,until I was much older. I realised that although she was great company, you were subconsciously editing everything that you did and said to keep on her right side and that the littlest thing at the wrong time would bring in a load of histrionics. I'm thinking now that my niece's life must have been very difficult and her father (parents split when she was going because he hit my sister) was useless. Her brother was "the golden child".

So, we're a pretty screwed up family partly, I suspect genetic (from my maternal grandfather) and partly because our parents would/should never have married if the pill had been around but they did their duty and stuck together!  

 I have witnessed mental illness and the consequences for most of my life and tried to help out when I could and now I'm burned out, I could walk away from all of them.

[wantyousafe]

Thank you very much for all your replies, it's been a big help.
Whilst I have people who support me and listen, they won't /can't advise me and that's what I needed.

I have to face the fact that I had enabled my sister and niece by continuing to support them when they were unable or unwillingly to budget or save for the future, to take the simple steps to help themselves.

I am not replying to my niece's email.I am going to look at what I have to do to keep myself safe instead, to stop people pleasing to the point I want to scream.Dysfunctional families: nobody gets away unscathed!

[Notwendy]

I am not replying to my niece's email.I am going to look at what I have to do to keep myself safe instead, to stop people pleasing to the point I want to scream.Dysfunctional families: nobody gets away unscathed!

Good for you! I have had to work on my tendency to people please and enable as well. It seems those of us who grew up in these kinds of families have the tendency to feel overly responsible for our dysfunctional family members or entitled and enabled. Once we realize that enabling isn't helping - it's perpetuating their dysfunction and it's not a solution, it becomes apparent that we have to say no.

[zachira]

You have come to the right place after years of dealing with many disordered family members by deciding not to enable your niece by lending her money she will never repay. I too have many diagnosed and undiagnosed mentally ill family members, both in my immediate and extended families, many of them with personality disorders. There comes a point when all we can do is to step away from the drama. I know that there is a special love for nieces and nephews as I am also an aunt, and we want to do what we can to help them. I no longer have contact with my niece and it hurts yet I can't continue to enable the dysfunctional behaviors of the disordered family members as it enables dysfunctional behaviors that only get worse over time. It takes a long time and lots of work to get to the point where we are able to stop the enabling of our disordered family members as we are programmed from birth to enable the most dysfunctional family members. Would you mind sharing a little more of your journey and what you see the future looking like?

[wantyousafe]

There's a good chance that my sister and my niece will have a showdown over the money and then my sister may actually help my niece to turnaround as she does love her in her own way and might apply herself to the problem.
They may also decide to turn against me because they have to be the "victim" in which case it's going to be a bit nasty for a while but better than the death of a thousand cuts!
This sister is also very close to my eldest niece, they have very similar traits (and screwed up kids)and she's already told her that "her family never did anything for her".I couldn't give a stuff about that.
To be honest, the family that I used to think was close became very separated following the disability of my mother and then my second sister.
I don't have children, never wanted any, and the suspected BPD sister's children couldn't have children.Thank goodness: best that we don't reproduce as I'm pretty convinced that the damage cascades down.
We're all going to settle for fewer, authentic relationships in the future, aren't we.